Previously, views were expressed by Agostini.

        Albeit the group comprising the honfoglalas consisted of many
        tribes /soon to be united under one leader/, the independant
        existence of the magyar tribe predates any such agreement.
        i.e, they were at one time a sole anthropological and socialogical
        entity, which has been documented, and shown to extend concretely
        hundreds of years before the honfoglalas.  Suggestively, this
        existence can be proven to be unique in terms of millenia.

        The arab writers have incorrectly observed the magyar people.
        Something I hope others agree with me, else, perhaps we should
        submit to the greek misobservation and call ourselves 'turks'.

        The fact is, part of shamanistic ritual included the reading
        of bones cooked over the fire.  The core of the magyar religion
        was worship of a spiritual entity which resided in the
        round house of the sky, mind you, not the planetary object
        as such.  This is supported by higher linguistic development,
        social structure, placenames.

        The pagan religion was an integral part of the magyar existence,
        providing spiritual and social needs to the ancient tribes
        as they entered the carpathian basin.

        Subsequent exposure to western religions created much turmoil
        and civil skirmishing.  The adaptation of the western religion
        by an eastern people has provided a means of political and
        economic survival, that would have otherwise been impossible.
        Thus, it can be said that the magyar people are still
        existing, which provides a firm base for the discussion of the
        changes which took place, on this, the 1100th Anniversary of
        magyarorszag.

        -Mihaly

I hope you do not mind if I enclose herewith a few quotations in Hungarian.
Michael D Shafer > on   Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:00:56
-0400 wrote:

>  [the Magyars...]  were at one time a sole anthropological and=
 socialogical
entity, which has been documented, and shown to extend concretely
hundreds of years before the honfoglalas.  Suggestively, this
existence can be proven to be unique in terms of millenia.=20

I have to point out that there is no evidence at all as concerning their
existence "in terms of millennia". Bartha Antal ("A magyar nep ostortenete".
Budapest, 1988) wrote:

quote
[...] A magyar nepnev a IX. szazad hetvenes-nyolcvanas eveiben jelent meg a
kutfokben. Ezek szerint korabban nem is letezett magyar nep, magyar
ostortenet? Tobb kivalo kutato egyetert a kerdesben foglalt tagadassal, es
legfeljebb a IX szazad harmincas-hatvanas eveig vezetik vissza a magyar
tortenelmet [...]  (p. 7)

[...] A tortenettudomany attol az idotol tudja adatolni a magyar nepet,
amikor az irasos kutfok eloszor emlekeznek meg hitelesen letezeserol. A
magyar tortenelem elso hiteles irott forrasai a X. szazad elso feleben
keletkeztek. Ezekben az arab, perzsa es bizanci gorog nyelvben keszult
muvekben a magyar tortenelmere vonatkozo feljegyzesek, reszben, a IX. szazad
hetvenes-nyolcvanas eveinek esemenyeit ismertetik. [...] Kristo Gyula
kritikailag atrostalta azokat  a feltetelezetten magyarokra vonatkozo
kutfoemliteseket, amelyek nemi fenyt vethetnenek a magyar tortenelem
ismeretlensegben veszo szazadaira. Ilyen emlitesek azonban nincsenek.
Rendelkezik-e a tortenettudomany eszkozokkel, amelyekkel hitelesiteni kepes
a magyar nep letezeset azokban az evszazadokban, amelyek magyarjaitol a
kutfok hallgatnak? Kristo Gyula e kerdesre valaszolva joggal allapitja meg,
feltuno, ha Kelet-Europanak nel felreeso zugaban elo neprol, csaknem masfel
evezreden at, semmifele irasos hiradas nem t=F6rtent [...] (p. 113)
unquote

Moreover may I point out that  it exists no nation in the whole world
composed by a "sole anthropological entity".=20

quote
"A honfoglalas embertipusai a kovetkezok voltak: keletbalti, urali, pamiri,
turanid, turano-pamirid, reszben turanid...  [...] Tallozo tekintetunket
vessuk most Arpad magyarjaira.... benne a torokos jelleg uralkodott
(turanid, pamiri es elo-azsiai fajtajelleg), az ugoros magyarokhoz
kapcsolhato reteg meg egyotodet sem alkotta a magyaroknak (europoszibirid,
keletbalti es lapponid) ugyanilyen aranyban megtalalhatok koztuk a keleti
mediterran es eszaki fajtajellegek. Embertan-kutatoink kiserletet tettek
arra, hogy e tipusok megosztasat tarsadalmi retegekhez kossek, es arra az
eredmenyre jutottak, hogy a toeroekoes jelleg altalaban vezeto retegunkre,
mig a tobbi inkabb koznepunkre jellemzo"
(Laszlo Gyula: Arpad nepe. Budapest 1986, 22 ff.)=20
(Nemeskeri, Janos: Az embertan es a magyar ostortenet. A magyarsag
ostortenete. Budapest 1943,  223-239).
unquote


Michael D Shafer continues:
>>    The arab writers have incorrectly observed the magyar people.

It may be. Yet, if we deny the validity of existing historical sources, even
the little evidence now available disappears in the mist of lost lores. If
facts do not conform to your theory, are you used to dispose of them?

 >     The fact is, part of shamanistic ritual included the reading
        of bones cooked over the fire.  The core of the magyar religion
        was worship of a spiritual entity which resided in the
        round house of the sky, mind you, not the planetary object
        as such.  This is supported by higher linguistic development,
        social structure, placenames.

Dioszegi Vilmos (A pogany magyarok hitvilaga, Bp. 1983) wrote:
quote
[...] amikor ilyen cimu konyv akad a kezunkben... onkentelenul is felvetodik
a kerdes, vajon egyaltalan lehetseges-e egy tobb mint ezer ev elotti
hitvilagrol kepet alkotni [...] a forrasok szempontjabol alapveto valtozas
akkor allott be, amikor... megkezdodott a magyar nyelvnek a finnugor
nyelvekkel valo osszehasonlitas... (pp. 5-6).
unquote

There is no evidence at all that the Magyars professed a shamanistic faith;
this hypothesis  was suggested by the fact that some Finno-Ugric peoples
share much the same religion and rituals of the Turkic peoples of Siberia
(...Uralo-Altaic kinship?!). Moreover, relicts of  Shamanism (Pantheism?) as
found among the Magyars can be found throughout Europe and Asia.=20

As far as higher linguistic development and improvement of social structures
are concerned there's nothing to account for it :=20

quote
A kulturavaltas - a legelteto pasztorkodasrol a foldmuvelesre, ezzel csak
reszben egyidejuleg az osi hitvilagrol a keresztenysegre valo atteres -
olyan korai idoben zajlott le a magyar tortenelemben, hogy erre a folyamatra
vonatkozolag meg igen keves korabeli irasos emlekkel rendelkezunk. Dioszegi
csak hatalmas osszehasonlito neprajzkutatassal tudott e kulturavaltas
nyomaira ravilagitani [...] de meg az ilyen tagan ertelmezett "szoveg" igen
keves ahhoz, hogy a honfoglalas utani magyar kulturavaltas reszleteit
rekonstrualni tudjuk [...]
 (Bueky, B.: A pszichikumra vonatkozo szokincs korai retege a magyarban. Bp,
1986 p. 13)
unquote

As concerning  placenames, there's nothing to encourage the slightest
hypothesis.

quote
 "Egyik kutatonk vilagosan leszogezte, az csupan hagyomanyos hit, hogy a
magyar helynevek Arpad magyarjaitol szarmaznak, mert semmifele bizonyito
anyagunkkal nem sikerult kimutatni, hogy a Romai Birodalom bukasa es a XI.
szazadi okleveles gyakorlasa kozti idoben mikor es kik adtak a helyneveket,
csak az bizonyos, hogy magyarok voltak..." (Laszlo Gyula: Arpad nepe. Bp
1986, 17. o.)
unquote

 Placenames like *uegy-koe* or *uegy-fa* may only suggest that those were
places of worship (?) for a stone (koe) or a tree (fa). The worship of trees
and stones was a practice of the Slavic populations: the  border-stones to
which they sacrificed  were called in Hungarian balvany-koevek, i.e.
idol-stones. Yet the same practice was to be found among Semitic peoples -
where they offered sacrifices to those particular stones were called
beth-el, beth-il  'house of the god', whence  Greek betylos 'sacrifical
stone' (see Graves, R. - Patai, R.: Hebrew Myths. The Book of Genesis,=
 1963).

 King Stephen (Szent Istvan) promulgated a law, according to which the
Hungarian villages had to associate in groups of ten in order to build the
church   ("tiz kozseg egy templom"). If any "pagan" place of cult existed,
Istvan could had easily expropriated them. Since nothing similar to this
happened, we may infer that the reason why no religion-related placename
survived is probably due to the fact that  in Hungary there is no "pagan"
religion-related placename left. =20

According to  Michael D Shafer,=20
>>   The pagan religion was an integral part of the magyar existence,
        providing spiritual and social needs to the ancient tribes
        as they entered the carpathian basin.

Once again we have to state that there's no evidence as concerning which
kind of "pagan religion" the Magyars professed, although the chronicles
report that Geza sacrificed "more pagano" - in the pagan way. Much the more
it's impossible to quantify its importance in the life of the Magyars.

>>   Subsequent exposure to western religions created much turmoil
        and civil skirmishing. =20

Sure, but do not forget that "[...oseink...] a keresztenyseget valojaban
keleten, Bizanc kozvetitesel ismertek meg, meg a honfoglalas elott."
(Duemmert, D.: Az Arpadok nyomaban. Bp. 1977). At the time of the battle of
Lech Field (Augsburg) in 955 a Greek episcopate was active in Hungary. And
Gyorffy Gyorgy in several works of his stressed the fact that - in the eyes
of the Roman Church -  there wasn't much difference between a heathen and a
follower of the Byzantine Church.

>>     The adaptation of the western religion
        by an eastern people has provided a means of political and
        economic survival, that would have otherwise been impossible.
        Thus, it can be said that the magyar people are still
        existing, which provides a firm base for the discussion of the
        changes which took place, on this, the 1100th Anniversary of
       Magyarorszag.

Agreed!! I'd stress also that the language spoken by the Magyar settlers was
so strong to survive more than thousand years although surrounded by
Indo-European languages. But - unfortunately - there isn't a single piece of
sound evidence supporting the theories dealing with the "religion" of the
Magyar settlers. In 1921 Kiraly Gyorgy wrote :

quote
"Erdekes jelenseg a tudomanyok torteneteben, hogy eppen olyan teruleteken,
ahol a leggyerebb es legkevesbe megbizhato adatok allanak rendelkezesre,
burjanzanak fel a legdusabban es a legmereszebben a hipotezisek. E
tekintetben valosaggal tipikus pelda a magyar mondakolteszet tortenete,
melynek irodalma kotetekre rug, anelkul, hogy egyetlen magyar nyelvu toredek
maradt volna rank; vannak nagyszeru elmeleteink a magyar mitologiarol, s meg
egyaltalaban soha fel nem vetodott a kerdes, voltak-e egyaltalan mitoszaink?
A magyar-hun monda problemaja - hala kutatoink buzgalmanak - ma mar kusza
szovevennye bogozodott, de meg eddig senki sem kiserelte meg, hogy a monda
alapszoveget a kulonbozo valtozatokbol megallapitsa, es a kesobbi
betoldasoktol elkulonitse, aminek minden elmeleti fejtegetest meg kellett
volna eloznie. [...]"
(Kiraly Gyorgy: A magyar oskolteszet. Bp, 1921)
unquote


Paolo