------------------------------------------ -- EZ A SZÁM CSAK TEXT FORMÁBAN LÉTEZIK -- ------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Feb 91 22:48:26 EST Subject: *** FORUM *** #148 Tartalomjegyzek: ---------------- Felado : hidas@cernvm.bitnet Temakor : Kalasnyikovok balkezrol Felado : 72600.3046@compuserve.com Temakor : Third World, free market and all that jazz Felado : jebe@jhuvm.bitnet Temakor : utolsoelotti megnyilvanulasom Felado : jebe@jhuvm.bitnet Temakor : utolso jelentkezesem Felado : posfai@plasma Temakor : Peneszes gondolatok =============================================== Felado : hidas@cernvm.bitnet Beerkezett: Mon Feb 18 05:45:20 EST 1991 Temakor : Kalasnyikovok balkezrol - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hetyei Gabor probalja kimutatni, hogy fejreallt a "demokrata"- "nacionalista" fogalompar a ket legnagyobb part viselkedeseben. Nem akarok hosszas fejtegetesbe bocsatkozni, nem is tudnek "mely" filozofiai ismeretek hianyaban, de talan a hiba ott van, hogy a "demokratakrol" tenyleg elhittek, akik valtig terjesztettek, hogy a veres jakobinus-bolsevik iranyzat tiszta kovetoi. A magam reszerol nem ertek egyet az inkvizicio "inkabb pusztuljon el 100 artatlan, minthogy egy bunos elve maradjon" elvevel, sot inkabb maradjon eletben 100 bunos, mint hogy egy artatlan is elpusztuljon. Azt hiszem, ez utobbi nem passzol a "forradalmi" mentalitashoz, bar harom eve nekem is megfordult a fejemben, hogy ha nem lesz otthon valtozas, akkor elmegyek partizannak. A valtozas megtortent, bar az uj hatalomnak megvan az a hajlandosaga, hogy magat tyukanyonak kepzelje, akit a renitens csibeknek akkor is kovetnie kell, ha esetleg valamit rosszul csinalt. Az persze, hogy mi a rossz, nagyon szubjektiv, de a vitak fegyveres utra terelesetol mindenkit ovnek. Mea culpa harom evvel ezelotti otle- temert. Nagyon nehez eldonteni, mi az erdekunk inkabb, polgarhaboru deli hataraink mellett, amibe sokunk belepusztulhat, foleg ha atterjed magyar teruletre is, vagy szivos, gorcsos diplomaciai, gazdasagi erofeszitesek mindenki boldogulasaert. Ez utobbi nehezebb, de hosszu tavon csak ez vezethet eredmenyre. Vagy egy dolog, ha mind egy szalig kiirtjuk a szerbeket, mert a maradek a gyilkola- szasuk miatt ugyis 100-szor vadabb es rosszabb lenne szamunkra, mint ahogy ezt a tortenelem mar sokszor mutatta. Valoszinu, hogy nehany rossz amerikai tulajdonsagnak valahol koze van az indianok kiirtasahoz, mert a gyilkossag a gyilkost is nyomoritja. Felreer- tes ne essek, sok rossz amerikai tulajdonsag mas szempontbol nez- ve jo is lehet es en sokra becsulom Amerikat, mint ami nem toke- letes, van nala jobb a Foldon, de sokkal rosszabb is. Izraelben az (arabok) eletszinvonal(a is) magasabb, mint a kornyezo arab allamokban, de en nem vagyom arra, hogy Magyarorszag ugyano- lyan frontorszag helyzetbe jusson, mint ok. Irigy szomszedok kozott nem jo elni. Persze nem kell a szomszedoknak mindent elnezni, de nem mindjart fegyvert kell adni az ellenfeleiknek. Egyenlore vilag- szerte a jugoszlav kormanyt ismerik el legitimnek Jugoszlaviaban, nem hiszem, hogy az Europai Kozosseg szivesen latna egy haborus gocot a Balkanon. Bar a nyugat-keleti hatarvonal szerintem is egy- reszt Horvatorszag es Szlovenia masreszt a tobbi tagallam kozott huzodik. Amikor annak idejen szova tettem, hogy nem erdemes marcius 15-en Aradon magyar zaszlokat lengetni, mert masok erzekenysegere is tekintettel kell lenni, akkor nem talaltam osztatlan egyeter- tesre. De attol, hogy ezt peldaul az USA-ban meg lehet tenni, nem kovetkezik, hogy Romaniaban is celravezeto. Tul egyszeru lenne mindezekert a romanok elmaradottsagat vallvonogatva felem- legetni, marcsak azert is, mert ne varjunk el tobbet masoktol, mint magunktol. Pali =============================================== Felado : 72600.3046@compuserve.com Beerkezett: Mon Feb 18 15:11:19 EST 1991 Temakor : Third World, free market and all that jazz - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mielott a harmadik vilag es szabad piac koruli vita harci tuze teljesen kialudna, egy a The Nation magazin februar 25-i szamaban megjelent cikkre szeretnem felhivni a figyelmet, mert Robert Pollin (U.C. economics professor) es Alexander Cockburn a vilag gazdasagi helyzetet attekintve szamos, a Forum oldalain folyo vita temajat erinti. A vita resztvevoinek cukkolasara ket "rovidebb" reszletet idezek a cikkbol. Myth #3: The Paragons of Free-Marketeerism Are The 'Miracle' Economies of East Asia With typical hyperbole, Ronald Reagan said in his 1985 State of the Union Message: "Many countries in East Asia and the Pacific have few resources other than the enterprise of their own people. But through...free markets they've soared ahead of centralized economies." The problem here is that the Asian economies, especially those of Japan and South Korea, the region's greatest success stories, are not now nor have they ever been free-market economies. In both planning and strategic financing, the state is dominant. It provides business with export subsidies, protection and cheap money. According to the development economist Aiden Foster-Carter, the South Korean agricultural system is virtually "a single gigantic state farm, with the state setting prices, providing inputs and credit, and buying the crop." By any measure, then, the state has been at least as active as in Latin America. So why have Japan and South Korea succeeded over the long term , in contrast to their latin counterparts? Free markets can take little credit. In the 1950s, the United States saw both Japan and South Korea as bulwarks against communist expansion and gave them tremendous support. It is often forgotten that besides postwar reconstruction grants, Japan received nearly $2.2 billion in U.S. military procurement orders from 1950 to 1953 (equal to $10 billion in 1989 dollars). Such orders accounted for about 65 percent of Japanese exports over those years. Military Keynesianism, the declared U.S. policy in Paul Nitze's famous planning document N.S.C. 68, was not confined to the United States. Outright aid to South Korea was even greater. More than 80 percent of Korean imports in the 1950s were financed by U.S. economic assistance. And in a parallel to Japan's experience during the Korean War, South Korea flourished with procurement contracts during the Vietnam War years. By 1975 such contracts accounted for no less than one-fifth of South Korea's exports of goods and services. State intervention in East Asia was also more effective than in Latin America. States that subsidize and protect business always risk the misappropriation of resources. That happened in Japan and South Korea, but to an unusual extent the governments there were able to discipline the corporations they protected and subsidized, forcing them to meet product and quality standards necessary to penetrate export markets. In both cases the state's power over the capitalist class was partly the result of a sweeping U.S.-directed land reform in the years immediately following World War II. [...] Finally, as a matter of conscious policy Japan and South Korea restricted intervention by foreign multinationals, especially during their phases of most rapid growth. While the state aggressively promoted the appropriation of modern technologies by domestic firms, it was not willing to allow foreign firms much purchase on the economy. The United States tolerated such violations of the free-market canon in the interests of the overall anticommunist alliance. Japan and South Korea are by no means unqualified successes. Wages were low and working conditions harsh during the main period of development and they remain unacceptable today. At least with Japan, this fact contradicts the image of a country of guaranteed employment, high wages and egalitarian labor practices. In reality, the Japanese labor market is highly segmented between a minority of privileged workers in the core corporations and a majority who work long hours at low pay with little security [see Doug Henwood, "Playing the Zaiteku Game", October 3, 1988]. There is much to oppose in the East Asian model even while its basic lesson - that given favorable circumstances intelligent and aggressive government planning can produce remarkable results - remains compelling. .. .. [...] Chile's position as the standard-bearer of free-market achievement rests entirely on its performance since 1983. National income has risen for six straight years, at an average annual rate of six percent. Unemployment has also fallen steadily, from more than 14 percent in 1983 to less than 7 percent by 1990. Inflation averaged 18.3 percent from 1983 to 1989, which is high in absolute terms but negligible by the hyperinflation standards of other Latin countries. Also unlike other Latin economies, Chile has been able to reduce the burden of foreign debt, from 143 percent of G.N.P. in 1985 to 78 percent in 1989. It has also diversified exports beyond its traditional staple of copper to include lumber, fresh fruit and fish. But this record presents only a partial picture. While overall growth since the 1983 slump has been good, it began from the subterranean level induced by the first decade of Pinochet's repression and free-market policies. Thus, even with the sustained economic expansion it was not until 1988 that per capita G.N.P. exceeded its level in 1980, or in 1972, the last full year of Salvador Allende's socialist government. The average real wage follows a similar pattern. The 1989 real wage was only slightly above that of 1980 and substantially below what it had been int the mid-1970s. The minimum wage has failed to maintain even that degree of stability, falling sharply in the 1980s. As of 1987, it was 31 percent below that of 1978. This divergence between the average and minimum wage patterns highlights the inequity of income distribution in Chile over the 1980s. Economic miracles aside, poverty, hunger and homelessness have not declined. A recent Wall Street Journal article reports that about 1 million people, 8 percent of the country's population, are now homeless, and as of 1989 the Catholic Church found that 46 percent of children under 10 were malnourished. More generally, it is extremely difficult to obtain a reliable picture of social reality under Pinochet, since the government redefined many of the most basic statistical measures of well-being, including such indicators as poverty, malnutrition, unemployment and consumer prices. For example, because it gauged poverty on the basis of durable goods rather than income, it would not count among the poor a family that owned a television, refrigerator, etc. but could not afford a loaf of bread every day. Chile's rulers have been well aware that mass living standards have failed to rise from the depths of the early 1980s. Indeed maintaining abysmal wages was a matter of policy, regarded as the key to the country's success in the new export industries. In the Concepcion region, an area of heavy lumber production, an economist with the local Chamber of Commerce reported in 1988 that more than 65 percent of the workers receive less than the $140 monthly salary considered necessary for basic family needs. But even given these fiercely antilabor policies, there is another factor, one having nothing to do with free markets, that has been the primary determinant of Chile's export boom and, more generally, its economic success since the early 1980s: the rise of copper prices. The price of copper on the wholesale international market more than doubled from 1984 to 1989. As a consequence, Chile has enjoyed unprecedented trade surpluses. For 1988, the surplus was $2.2 billion; prior to 1986, it had never exceeded $1 billion. Chile's ability to reduce its foreign debt burden since 1983 is largely a result of the country's trade surplus. But also of great importance have been its debt-equity swap agreements, whereby a foreign creditor assumes ownership of a public enterprise in exchange for writing off an equivalent share of the government's debt. Here, however, the fine print is crucial: Until 1990, investors were not permitted to repatriate profits from debt-equity investments in Chile, allowing the government to garner the benefits of these swaps without suffering their most immediate effects. Now that profit repatriations have begun, there will be a drain on Chile's still favorable international balances. The full picture of Chile's post-1983 turnaround, therefore, is decidedly unmiraculous. Ha a fenti elemzeseknek hihetunk, akkor ebbol ket trivialis, de sajnos keseru kovetkeztetest vonhatunk le Magyarorszag szamara. Egyreszt a tavol-keleti orszagok eseteben a gazdasaguk sikerenek egyik osszetevoje az volt, hogy ok megkaptak az USA-tol azt a kezdeti toke infuziot, amit ma a nyugati orszagok vonakodnak megadni a kelet-europai orszagoknak. Masreszt meg kell tanulnunk a szabadpiaci rendszert nem fetisizalni, es nem automatikusan feltetelezni, hogy minden sikeres gazdasag mogott ez az egyeduli, vagy akar dominans mukodesi mechanizmus. Udv. Leirer Laszlo 2/18/91 =============================================== Felado : jebe@jhuvm.bitnet Beerkezett: Mon Feb 18 19:01:27 EST 1991 Temakor : utolsoelotti megnyilvanulasom - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kedves Forum! Bucsuzom. Az elmult honap "vitai" megertettek velem, hogy nincs lehetoseg arra, hogy eloiteletmentesen, ertelmesen, a kozos ugyeinkrol vitatkozzunk. Szemelyeskedes, pitianer kukacoskodas, sertegetes kezdi jellemezni a forumot. Ez pedig ellentetben all azzal, amire ez az egesz kezdemenyezes szuletett. A forum a legrangosabb magyar tarsadalomtudo- manyi es esszefolyoiratban publikalhato eszme-utkoztetesek forumabol az alpari balosozas forumava vedlett. Ebben en nem kivanok a tovabbiakban reszt venni. Az elofizetesemet lemondom. Az igazsag az, hogy nem kizarolag a mocskolodas zavar. Ha lehet, talan meg bantobbnak talalom a felelemmel vegyes kozonyt. Tobbszor megtortent a kozelmultban, hogy MAGANLEVELBEN egyeterteserol, rokonszenverol, az ellenem iranyulo tamadasok miatt "reszveterol" biztositott valaki. Ugyanakkor nyilvanosan ezt egyetlen esetben sem vallalta. Az elofizetok oriasi tobbsege pedig HALLGAT. Ebbol elegem van. Nem hianyzik nekem, hogy atlagosan hetente ket alkalommal "balos marhazzanak", "elvtarsazzanak" le a legkulonfelebb sarokbol. Mi szuksegem nekem arra, hogy rajtam eljek ki a politikai kisebbsegi erzesuket a kulonfele szellemi szegenylegenyek? Februar 18-i valaszom: semmi. Semmi szuksegem nincs ra. Az utolso cseppet a poharban a tegnapi forum jelentette. Anelkul, hogy kulonosebben kommentalnam a dolgot, csatolom "csorna" urnak/uriasszonynak(?) kuldott levelemet. A levelet MEGKAPTA: a mailerem jelezte, "delivered", ami ugyebar azt jelenti, hogy eppen dolgozik a cimzett es kepernyojen meg- jelenik a szoveg, hogy "new mail from ...". Harom es fel ora alatt nem volt ra 2 perce, hogy valaszoljon. Elegem van ebbol a mentalitasbol. ========================================================================== Date: Mon, 18 Feb 91 15:26:16 EST From: Borocz Jozsef Subject: milyen elvekrol is volna szo? To: nem derul ki Kedves forum-tars! Nem tudom, oruljek vagy pedig bosszankodjam azon, hogy "elvtarsanak" szolit. Orommel vennem, ha esetleg tajekoztatna elveirol a forum olva- soit. Ugyancsak oromomre szolgalna, ha helyes magyarsaggal irott, melyen- szanto hozzaszolasat ALAIRNA. Ebben az esetben elkezdhetnenk beszelget- ni. Megnyugtatom: a mocskolodas nem lesz kolcsonos. Azt alairt szoveg- gel kapcsolatban sem vallalom. Onon all, hogy valoban szoba allunk-e. Borocz Jozsef ============================================================================= Tisztazzuk: TILTAKOZASKENT szallok ki a forumbol. A gyavasag, a butasag es a gyengeseg elleni tiltakozaskent. Azert teszem, mert ugy er- zem, nincs semmifele egyeb eszkozom, hogy a kozeleti analfabetizmus kap- csan erzett frusztraciomat kifejezzem. Termeszetesen szivesen folytatok maganlevelezest barkivel barmilyen temarol, felteve, hogy a becsuletserteseket mellozzuk. Udvozlettel, Borocz Jozsef =============================================== Felado : jebe@jhuvm.bitnet Beerkezett: Mon Feb 18 19:05:54 EST 1991 Temakor : utolso jelentkezesem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Mon, 18 Feb 1991 19:00 EST From: Subject: @ To: UNSUBS FORUM =============================================== Felado : posfai@plasma Beerkezett: Mon Feb 18 22:09:15 EST 1991 Temakor : Peneszes gondolatok - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Meszaros Ferenc irja: >..............................................................Klasszikusnak >mondhato1 ............................................. pe1lda a Penicillin >esete, amelyet Flemming egy pene1szfajbo1l a1lli1tott elo3 - addig a pene1szro3l >csak azt hitte1k, hogy ma1sra nem jo1, minthogy a lekva1rt megegye. A szerves anyagokon kialakulo peneszfoltok gombasporak elszaporodasabol szarmaznak, ezert helytelen "peneszfajokrol" beszelni, legfeljebb peneszgomba fajok leteznek. Ezeket az organizmusokat a penicillin felfedezese elott is jol ismertek, hasznossagukrol vagy kartekonysagukrol nagyon sokat tudtak. Mi tobb, meg mielott a mikroszkop megszuletett, es mielott felismertek a peneszfolt egysejtu elolenyeit, hasznositottak a gombatenyeszeteket. Osidok ota kelesztik a kenyeret es erjesztik az alkoholos italokat. Tudja a tokaji borosgazda, hogy bora zamatjahoz mennyire kell pinceje falan tenyeszo penesz, pedig tan eleteben nem hallott Saccharomyces cereveciase-rol. A lekvar, gyumolcsle, -suritmeny, aszaltszilva peneszedese valoszinuleg az Aspergillus repensnek tulajdonithato. A kozeli rokonnak besorolt Aspergillus oryzae konvertalja a rizs kemenyitojet maltozza, hogy ebbol aztan japanok rizspalinkaja, a sake erjedjen. Az Aspergillusszal egy csaladba tartoznak a Penicilliumok. Meg mielott a repens faj bakteriumnovekedest gatlo hatasat Fleming (es nem Flemming) felismerte volna, a P. camamberti es P. roqueforti fajokat mar reg hasznaltak sajtok erlelesere. Az Egri Csillagok masodik kotetenek kis bevezeto epizodjaban a serult vitez nem engedi, hogy fejen a sebet a borbelyok osszevarrjak. Lehalasz a sarokbol egy pokhalot, amit aztan a fejere csap, es diadallal elvonul. A pokhalo gyulladasgatlo antibiotikumat (hasonlo Fleming penicillinjehez) hasznalta, holott nem ismerte (meg Gradonyi sem ismerhette) az 1980-as evek biokemiajat. Posfai Janos Cold Spring Harbor, New York =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= =* TIPP FORUM MAHAL HUNET hozzaszolasok bekuldese az XMAIL-re *= =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= =* To: contacts@phoenix.princeton.edu *= =* Subject: XMAIL {mast ne irj a Subject mezobe} *= =* *= =* UJSAGNEV temakor {az UJSAGNEV lehet TIPP FORUM MAHAL HUNET,} *= =* ... {de csak egy ezek kozul} *= =* ... {utana kovetkezhet a hozzaszolasod} *= =* ... {egeszen a leveled vegeig} *= =* *= =* Figyelem!!! A temakor tobb szobol is allhat, de csak a kovetkezo *= =* karaktereket hasznald: a..z A..Z 0..9 -+/#.;: *= =* Figyelem!!! Az ujsag nevet CSUPA NAGYBETUVEL kell beirni! *= =* Lapzarta: mindennap 22:48pm EST *= =* *= =* A fentitol eltero formaju levelek nem jelennek meg, es nyomuk sem *= =* marad. Kulonosen nagy sebesseggel vesznek el a Reply-lyal kuldott *= =* levelek :-(. Ha ennel reszletesebb informaciora van szukseged, az *= =* UJSAGNEV helyett ird azt hogy HELP, temakornek pedig azt hogy "all". *= =* A contacts-on a mail-t SENKI sem olvassa!!! Ha nekem akarsz irni, *= =* hasznald a kovetkezo cimek egyiket: *= =* >>> hollosi@helios.ucsc.edu <<<--->>> hollosi@portal.bitnet <<< *= =* *= =* Hollosi Jozsi. *= =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=