Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 997
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-05-14
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
4 HL-Action: letter to Kovacs (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Havel on NATO (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
6 Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Wow!!  I want to read these WONDERFUL Australian metropolitan newspapers!!
They must be the greatest anywhere around!!  How about some Web sites?  They
got any?

Frank A. Aycock
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "FRANK A. AYCOCK"
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times
>From:  "FRANK A. AYCOCK" >
>Date:  Tue, 13 May 1997 23:45:35 +0000
>
>Wow!!  I want to read these WONDERFUL Australian metropolitan
newspapers!!
>They must be the greatest anywhere around!!  How about some Web sites?
They
>got any?
>
>Frank A. Aycock

Try this, gang:

http://www.mediainfo.com/ephome/npaper/nphtm/online.htm

It's Editor & Publisher's database of on-line newspapers. The Australian,
by the way, is one of several Australian newspapers in the database. Enjoy
yourselves.
Sam Stowe

"That boy, Frank -- he lives inside
his own heart. That's an awful big
place to live in..."
-- Karl Childers
+ - Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant > wrote:

>>

>There is no need for a Higher Order, thank you very much.
>
>E. Durant

I just heard it today:
"Atheism is a nonprophet organization."

D.
+ - HL-Action: letter to Kovacs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:     normal

Background:
  During the sessions of the International Court of Justice Hungary's
position shifted between "the whole construction has to be torn
off" and "under certain conditions we can accept the divertion of the
Danube". Such contradictory statements will not do.
 The International Court of Justice in the Hague as well as the public
opinion of the world can support the Hungarian position in the Danube
lawsuit only if this position is univocal.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade the foreign minister of Hungary, Laszlo
Kovacs, to initiate or at least support an integrative resolution
concerning the Danube dispute in the Hungarian parliament.
  Feel free to use the attached form letter. Letter #1 is written in
English, letter #2 in Hungarian.

e-mail address of Foreign Minister Kovacs:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter in English:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Laszlo Kovacs
Foreign Minister of Hungary
(E-mail: )

Dear Sir:

The International Court of Justice in the Hague as well as the public
opinion of the world can support the Hungarian position in the Danube
lawsuit only if this position is univocal. Unfortunately the
statements of the Hungarian delegation shift between "the whole
construction has to be torn off" and "under certain conditions we
can accept the divertion of the Danube". In my opinion such
contradictory statements will not do.

Hungary needs to take a position which is supported by the Hungarian
parliament and all political parties. This position has to be worked
out before the 15 judges have formed their final opinion. The
Hungarian position has to include the following basic demands:
Slovakia must return the Danube to its original riverbed and the
C-variant has to be torn off. It should also be made clear that
Hungary will apply all means at her disposal in order to reach reach
these goals.

If the Hungarian parliament passes such a resolution, this will be
supported by the International Court of Justice and the public
opinion of the world. The continuation of the currently fuzzy
politics can only lead to the petrification of the present disastrous
situation.

Dear Mr. Kovacs, please initiate and support the composition of an
integrative resolution in the Hungarian parliament.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter in Hungarian:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<datum>

Kovács László
Magyarország Külügyminisztere
(E-mail: )

Tisztelt Külügyminiszter Úr!

A Hágai Nemzetkozi Bíróság, akár a világ közvéleménye csak akkor
támogathatja a Duna kérdésében a magyar álláspontot, ha ez világos
szamara. Sajnos a hagai per folyamán nem kristalyosodott ki egy
egységes vonal a figyelo szamara. A magyar delegáció kijelentéseinek
skálája a "mindent le kell bontani" állásponttól "a Duna elterelése
(a C-variáns) véglegesitése is szóba jöhet" álláspontig, mindent
magábafoglalt. Ez a magatartas szamomra ertelmetlen.

Tisztelt Külügyminiszter Úr! A tetovazas helyett egy olyan
"összmagyar" álláspont kidolgozasara van szukseg,  melyet az
Orszaggyules és annak minden pártja támogat. Ezt az egyseges
álláspontot meg kell fogalmazni meg mielott a 15 hagai biro
kialakitja velemenyet.  Az ország integritásának es Szigetköz
megvédését nem szabad pártérdekeknek alárendelni. Joggal várja el
Önöktöl a magyar nép, hogy a Duna védelmében képesek legyenek egyet
érteni.

Egy országgyülési hatarozatnak az alapelveket kell kimondania: Le
kell szögeznie, hogy a Duna visszaterelése, a C-variáns lebontása
nem alku tárgya, annak elérésére minden eszközt, beleértve az ENSZ
Biztonsági Tanácsának összehivását is, igénybe vesszük.

Ha a Magyar Képviselöház az elkövetkezö hetekben elfogad egy ilyen
határozatot, akkor azt a Hágai Bíróság, a világ közvélemenye és az
ENSZ Duna Rehabilitációs Alapja (anyagilag is) támogatni fogja. A
jelenlegi homalyos politika folytatasa azonban a mai áldatlan
állapot tartositasat eredmenyezheti. Kérem Külügyminiszter urat, hogy
figyelmeztesse az Országgyülés tagjait történelmi felelösségükre és
kezdeményezze az összmagyar állaspont meghatározását, megszavazását
és nyilvánosságra hozatalát.

Öszinte Tisztelettel:

<nev, cim>
+ - Re: Havel on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>> you are right, of course: people who live in the United States think
>>> that it is the center of the universe. On the other hand, the New York Time
s
>>> is an important paper

>George Antony wrote:
>>Merely so because it is one of the leading papers in the US and helps form
>>public opinion in the US.  As for quality, I found many of the articles
>>previously recommended naive/analytically shallow/factually deficient/crassly
>>ignorant of other peoples' interests let alone feelings.  (This, of course,
>>does not apply to Havel's article.)

Eva Balogh wrote:
>        George, you are a great guy but when it comes to the United States
>your usually clear vision gets a bit clouded. I'm not sure what the cause of
>it but you do have a bias against the United States and everything American.

Hands up those people who think that the New York Times is the world's finest
newspaper.  It would be preferable if only those voted who have actually read
others than the NYT and Hungarian papers.

As for the personal aspect of Eva's remarks, blanket generalizations are
rarely supportable.  I am on record with positive remarks about US things
and people, even though I do not feel the need of regular panegyrics in this
respect.

George Antony
+ - Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Is there a political left in Hungary?  I'm asking because I think that a
healthy democracy needs both a political left and a right, but all I see on
the 'left', in Hungary, are political parties that are riddled with
opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists, and colourful,
chameleonlike behaviour.  In other words, they look like the political
'right'.  If there is a political left, who are they and what are they up
to?  Does anyone know?  Does anyone care?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 14 May 1997, E.S. Balogh wrote:

>         Which parties do you have in mind? Which so-called leftist parties
> are riddled with opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists
> and, in general, chameleonlike behavior? ESB

They all are, aren't they?  I don't consider the Hungarian Socialist
Party, the Hungarian Workers Party, or the Social Democratic Party to be
on the left, although I don't know that much about the SDP.  When the
Federation of Young Democrats was new I thought that they would end up on
the progressive left.  I was wrong.  They seemed to have spent their
initial popularity telling voters how different they were from their
allies, the Alliance of Free Democrats.

I don't consider the Alliance of Free Democrats, Hungarian Democratic
Forum, Independent Smallholders' Party, Christian Democratic People's
Party, Republic Party, Agrarian Alliance, Hungarian Justice and Life
Party, United Smallholders' Party, or the Liberal Civic Alliance to be on
the political left.

So, who's left in Hungary?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think Hungary just reflects the west in general.
To talk about any alternative to capitalism is
not to see the daylight of the media - unless
it is punk or something that can be dismissed by them
out of hand.  Anything faintly alternative is stamped out.
"Democracy" works mysterious ways...
However, as national debts mount (doubled here
under the tories) and working conditions
worsen people will think of alternatives, whether it
is approved by the media-tycoons or not.

E.Durant


>
> Is there a political left in Hungary?  I'm asking because I think that a
> healthy democracy needs both a political left and a right, but all I see on
> the 'left', in Hungary, are political parties that are riddled with
> opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists, and colourful,
> chameleonlike behaviour.  In other words, they look like the political
> 'right'.  If there is a political left, who are they and what are they up
> to?  Does anyone know?  Does anyone care?
>
> Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>         You are right, of course: people who live in the United States think
> that it is the center of the universe. On the other hand, the New York Times
> is an important paper

Merely so because it is one of the leading papers in the US and helps form
public opinion in the US.  As for quality, I found many of the articles
previously recommended naive/analytically shallow/factually deficient/crassly
ignorant of other peoples' interests let alone feelings.  (This, of course,
does not apply to Havel's article.)  Most Australian metropolitan papers
have more reliable analyses on Eastern Europe than what I have seen from
the samples of the main US papers.  And my choice for quality paper would be
the UK Independent or the European.

George Antony
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:53 PM 5/14/97 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>         You are right, of course: people who live in the United States think
>> that it is the center of the universe. On the other hand, the New York Times
>> is an important paper
>
>Merely so because it is one of the leading papers in the US and helps form
>public opinion in the US.  As for quality, I found many of the articles
>previously recommended naive/analytically shallow/factually deficient/crassly
>ignorant of other peoples' interests let alone feelings.  (This, of course,
>does not apply to Havel's article.)

        George, you are a great guy but when it comes to the United States
your usually clear vision gets a bit clouded. I'm not sure what the cause of
it but you do have a bias against the United States and everything American. ES
B
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:22 AM 5/14/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Is there a political left in Hungary?  I'm asking because I think that a
>healthy democracy needs both a political left and a right, but all I see on
>the 'left', in Hungary, are political parties that are riddled with
>opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists, and colourful,
>chameleonlike behaviour.  In other words, they look like the political
>'right'.

        Which parties do you have in mind? Which so-called leftist parties
are riddled with opportunism, reactionary rhetoric, pessimistic pragmatists
and, in general, chameleonlike behavior? ESB
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:07 PM 5/14/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I don't consider the Alliance of Free Democrats, Hungarian Democratic
>Forum, Independent Smallholders' Party, Christian Democratic People's
>Party, Republic Party, Agrarian Alliance, Hungarian Justice and Life
>Party, United Smallholders' Party, or the Liberal Civic Alliance to be on
>the political left.

        Good thing!

>So, who's left in Hungary?

        The Munkaspart. As left as it comes. ESB
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe,
        I almost forgot: the Munkaspart has a homepage. Why don't you visit
them. One of their vice-presidents and I have had a long and not very
fruitful discussion about his party. You can see his picture on the
home-page. Nice guy and very earnest. ESB
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> The OP-ED article in today's NYTimes by president Vaclav Havel, dealing with
>> NATO and larger issues is both a "must reading" and an opportunity to expres
s
>> our views and concerns. Please read it.
>
>Oh, yes, I will just drop in to my local newsagent and buy a copy.
>
>But seriously, why doesn't it occur to people living in the US that not
>everybody lives in the US ?  If there were a relevant article in today's
>Australian, I would offer some summary of it, rather than calling on the
>wide world to read it.
>
>George Antony
The New York Times is available on the internet. That's how I read the
Vaclav article.   Andy
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:

> I don't consider the Alliance of Free Democrats, Hungarian Democratic
> Forum, Independent Smallholders' Party, Christian Democratic People's
> Party, Republic Party, Agrarian Alliance, Hungarian Justice and Life
> Party, United Smallholders' Party, or the Liberal Civic Alliance to be
> on the political left.

The dominant party in Hungary's present, freely elected government has
been carrying out a solidly Thatcherist program while proudly calling
itself the Hungarian Socialist Party.  The opposition, on the other
hand, is running on a program demanding massive nationalizations and
the restoration of the old socialist welfare state -- whatever that
means -- while proudly proclaiming itself the Right.  In truth, party
labels are pretty meaningless, and the left/right distinction is worse
than useless when it comes to describing the Hungarian political scene.

I don't see why this is necessarily bad news.  The less ideology-driven
the politics of Hungary becomes, the more the country will approach the
political setup of mature democracies.  Notice that the victory of Labor
in Britain was largely due to the fact that Labor over the years has
stolen the clothes of its opponents, and ended up winning on a platform
that was very hard to distinguish from the program of the Conservatives.
Their very first move (transferring responsibility for day-to-day
monetary policy to an independent Bank of England) is an act of fiscal
rectitude that warms the heart of all dyed-in-the-wool conservatives
everywhere.

The less ideology-driven the parties, the more clear it is to everyone
what politics is all about: naked greed and the will to power.  The
sooner this becomes general knowledge in Hungary, the better.  Healthy
cynicism about politicians' motives is what makes people immune to the
kind of demagoguery that is still in ample supply in Hungary, on the
"right" and the "left".   "Watch what we do, not what we say" is how
John Mitchell, consummate political heavy, ex-Attorney General, and
convicted felon put it.

By the way, if you are looking for an old-fashioned leftist political
party of the fraternal-solidarity-with-the-heroic-Cuban-people
proletarian-internationalist persuasion, then I can recommend you look
into the Workers' Party.  Its chances of winning any election, for
M.P. or dog-catcher, are meager at best.  But it does exist.  I even
met some people who freely admit having voted for them.  What is
sorely missing from the Hungarian political scene is the equivalent
of that uniquely English political entity, the Monster Raving Loony
Party.  But in every other way, we are catching up fast.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

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