Michel Couzijn wrote:

>>In article >
 (Jerry Ostrowski) writes:

>>If EU's peoples really want to further improve their standard
>>of living in a _long run_ they should invest (not only their ECU's)
>>in Central and Eastern European economies.  If they want to "enjoy"
>>10-12% or higher unemployment rates forever - have them keep
>>the status quo.

>Althought I support CE and EE countries' membership of
>the European Union, I cannot see how such membership
>would GUARANTEE a decrease in unemployment (with wages
>and taxes being much lower in e.g. Poland than in e.g.
>The Netherlands) and an improvement in general
>'standard of living' of the 15 rich EU countries.

	If you (i.e. Western Europeans want to enjoy so generous social
benefits and state bureaucratic controls in many aspects of EU citizens
life, you have to pay for that with higher taxes and borrowing money. 
	As for the wages, you're right that they are much lower in CE &
EE.  For example, according to an article in Los Angeles Times, in
1994, the average monthly salary (before taxes) in three most
economically advanced  ex-Soviet Bloc economies was:

Czech Republic	US$275.00
Hungary		US$250.00
Poland		US$225.00

This is less than 50% of that what the poorest EU country (namely
Greece) citizens were making at that time.  If one takes Romania,
Bulgaria or former Soviet Republics, we shall get 25% or less.

	That what CE & EE citizens get for their "lower" taxes is no
match to the perks their western counterparts have been enjoying for
quite a while.  Still, there is a troubling tendency - in Poland at
least - of increasing tax rates in spite of relatively moderate growth
rate (6% GDP growth in 1994 which should be maintained in 1995 as well)
 comparing to Asian Newly Industrialized States, namely: Malaysia,
Singapore,South Korea and Taiwan which have been growing at rates above
8% annually.  It is worth to mention here that in 1994 _only one_
member state of EU - Portugal - showed such impressive results, i.e. 
8% GDP growth.

>I think the effects of these countries joining the
>EU are as clear as mud. If happen to know better,
>please give me some insight. And please include
>refutations of counterarguments in your response.

	For this matter, the clear thing is that if Central European
states joined the Union too soon it would have an adverse effect on
THEIR economies and THEY would be the loosers.  Most of the Polish
industry has been undergoing modernization and needs investment to
bring it up to date.  I am sure that similar situation prevails in
Czechia, Hungary, Slovakia and Slovenia, not too mention more backward
economies of the Balkan states and ex-Soviet republics.  That's why I
consider CEFTA a very important step towards preparing Central European
- and hopefully in the near future also Eastern European and Balkan
economies (BE) for the competitive and sophisticated trade environment
of European Union.
	As I said before, CE, EE and BE would benefit greatly from
EU membership provided however that their economies will have been
upgraded to international standards by the time of their admission.
The rush of some governments to join the rich '15' ASAP has more
POLITICAL merit rather than socio-economical one. But meantime EU
should show a great deal of goodwill and responsibility in fostering
the CEFTA development.  Here let's go back to 1986 when Spain and
Portugal were embraced by then EC.  Since then the rich '10' (or rather
9 because by Western European standards Greece which joined the
Common Market in 1981 could not be considered a rich country) spent
over US$150 billion (150 x 10^9 US dollars) to upgrade the Iberian
states economy to EC standards and please add more billions of $ in
financial help and inter-governmental 'handouts' if you wanted to
include Greece, too. Can anyone expect the similar generosity if
Poland,Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia (population roughly 40%
higher than Spain and Portugal combined) were to be admitted - say -
by the year 2000?  Hardly so. On the other hand in spite of some
earlier critics opposing Greece's, Spain's and Portugal's membership we
haven't seen a _massive_ outflow of capital from the rich 9 to the
(relatively) poor 3 and _massive_ influx of economic immigrants in the
opposite direction.  And what about the unemployment in Spain,
Portugal and Greece?  Was it eliminated by massive escape of good
paying jobs from Benelux, Germany or UK to take advantage of cheap
labor in the three new member states?  When I lived in Madrid, Spain,
in 1987 Spanish unemployment rate was close to 21%.  Now, in 1995 it
is still high at about 15% though Spanish economy was the fastest
growing in EC till approx. 1992. Meanwhile the rich '9' economies even
after 1986 maintained healthy growth of well over 4% annually.  So we
can see decrease in unemployment in Spain but also the growth in the
"Rich Europe". But now, what would happen if suddenly Spain, Portugal
and Greece dropped out of the Union (of course this is improbable but
let's just imagine such a situation) and introduced maximum (allowable
by WTO) 35% duty rates against products from France, UK, Benelux, Italy
and Germany?  How many tens or possibly hundreds of thousands jobs
would be lost in both the rich part and the poorer one of EU?  Economy
is not only industry and agriculture but also trade, transportation and
other services.  It is characteristic that the well developed rich
economies tend to have growing service sector (percentage-wise of the
total 100% GDP) while their agricultural and industrial base maybe
still growing in output though being reduced as a percentage of GDP. 
Thus, moving some labor intensive industries to cheaper CEFTA countries
can contribute to those countries development and stability while
making the more sophisticated high-tech products of EU corporations
more competitive to Asian and American competitors due to lowering cost
of some labor intensive components.  On the other hand more prosperous
CEFTA economies would be able to buy more from EU.  The process
has already started here in North America (NAFTA and its possible
expansion to include Chile by the end of 1996 and most of Latin
America  within next 15-20 years) and there will be growing economic
pressure on EU corporations to diversify geographically and make their
products even better but also _cheaper_. When you consider economic
growth in EU and CEFTA  and any cooperation between the two, you
cannot calculate the economic growth using the 1+1=2 rule.  To be
more precise here, let me explain.  If you move some industries and
jobs to cheaper  CEFTA, let's say creating 50,000 new jobs there but
loosing 20,000 in EU it does not mean that in this case EU is the
looser and CEFTA is the winner. The 50,000 jobs in the East would
stimulate growth and more demand for certain Western goods and services
thus creating new job opportunities (requiring re-training however) for
the people that had lost their work due to the relocation.  Western
countries,led by the United States, now have been entering Information
Age while most (if not all) of ex-Soviet Bloc countries still need
substantial progress to catch up with the _advanced_ industrial one.

>Bye,

>Michel Couzijn
>Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Regards,
Jerry Ostrowski
Los Angeles, Calif., USA

ps:     The numbers and statistics used in the above article have been
        quoted out of my memory so there's always possibility for an   
        error. If this is a case, I do welcome your corrections.

Hi

I'll be travelling with my partner to Budapest for a few days in mid-October.

Any recommendations on bars, cafes and clubs to visit ?

you can email me here: 

thanks

-- 
Deryck Fay, Dublin                                                      dfay@io
l.ie

All I can help you with (maybe) is a piece of advice. If I were you I'd 
look up all hungarian churches and organisations in your area and ask 
their members where do they send their children to learn this beautiful 
language of ours.
  Good luck.

ATTENTION INTERNATIONAL ENTREPRENEURS

I  AM EXPANDING MY EXPORT DIVISION AND SEEKING TO SIGN ON
REPRESENTATIVES WORLDWIDE.  AGENTS WILL SELL CARS, TRUCKS, COMMERCIAL
VEHICLES, HEAVY CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT, SHIPS, COMMERCIAL AND MILITARY
AIRCRAFT TO BUSINESSES AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES.  ALL TRANSACTIONS BY
CITIBANK LC AND ISSUED IMPORT LICENSE.  NO INVESTMENT, MINIMAL RISK,
SPLIT THE NET PROFIT OF SALES.  ONE DEDICATED RESIDENT AGENT PER
COUNTRY.  EMAIL TO ESTABLISH RELATIONS.

DANIEL MONTES, JR. UCS EXPORT DIVISION USA
2503 HARVARD, IRVING TX 75062 USA
214-254-2823VM, 214-255-5905FAX
, HTTP://WWW.WN.COM/UCS
OPERATION AREA:  PERU, ZAMBIA, NIGERIA, CZECH REPUBLIC, BRAZIL,
VENEZUELA, KOREA, POLAND, SWEDEN, RUSSIA.

In article > 
 (Marco Bottaro) writes:
>In article >,  (Jerry
>Ostrowski) wrote:
>
>>        As for the wages, you're right that they are much lower in CE &
>>EE.  For example, according to an article in Los Angeles Times, in
>>1994, the average monthly salary (before taxes) in three most
>>economically advanced  ex-Soviet Bloc economies was:
>>
>>Czech Republic  US$275.00

And they get it in some coupons:-) They cant change them into bucks!!??
$3000 in Canada (or something like that).

Alexander

Hatha valaki nem ismeri...( ambar tobbszor hirdettek )

A HunOR-on van ketiranyu (olvasas + IRAS) WWW-kapu a magyar hun.* , 
bit.listserv.hungary es soc.culture.magyar csoportokhoz:

http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/

Ugyanitt elofizetheto a soc.culture.magyar csoport email-en keresztul.
( kuldj egy levelet a  cimre, nem kell Subject,
a levelbe tegyed be a kovetkezo sort:
subscribe soc-culture-magyar )
Hamarosan a magyar csoportok is elerhetoek lesznek ez utobbi modon.

HunOR - Hungarian Online Resources a Maryland-i egyetem Magyar Amerikai 
Szovetsegenek ingyenes szolgalata a magyar kultura irant erdeklodok szamara.

Gotthard

In connection to Bill Gates' visit in Budapest last Friday, I'd like to
hear some reports from local folks there how the Hungarian media covered
the event.

Since one of Microsoft's big gurus is Charles Simonyi, Jr. (the son of
Prof. Karoly Simonyi), I am curious if Bill took Charles with him to
Budapest (as a personal tour guide perhaps.)

Joe Pannon

I often see Karch Kiraly play professional (beech) volley ball, but I
don't recall the TV reports ever mentioning his Hungarian background.

From his last name he could be n-th generation American and thus far
removed from the old country.  However, his first name Karch suggests
the Hungarian nickname for Karoly (or Charles, in English), which is 
Karcsi, pronounced as "Karchie".  So I suspect that's how he was called
at home and it got abbreviated a bit in American usage.  That would mean
probably first generation American.

Does anybody know here about his background?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

Hi everybody,

some time ago I asked here for a hungarian translation of the poem `Jabberwocky
'
by Lewis Carroll in `Alice in wonderland: through the looking-glass'.

Someone sent me an incomplete poem:


>The translation by Weores S'andor is said to be the best one, but the
>text given in HIX/MOKA #62 by Aszodi Andris >
>is incomplete. Can anybody complete it?
>-- Olivier
>
>
 SZAJK'OHUKKY
  
 Volt egy brill''os, a csuszbug'o,
 Gimbelt 'es g'alt t'avlengibe,
 Minden mimicre purrog'o,
 M'om'aja ingibe.
  
 "Vigy'azz, j"on Szajk'ohukk, fiam!
 Foga mar'o, karma f'ur'o!
 "Ugyelj, Csapcsip mad'ar zuhan,
 S a brunk'os Brombol'o!"
  
 Mark'aban ny"uszt''o penge reng,
 Elv'agdos minden manxomot.
 A Tamtam-f'an'al megpihent,
 M'ely gondj'aba rogyott.
  
 ...........................
 Jott Szajk'ohukk, n'ez'ese l'ang,
 S nagy k'aka-t"orzsek erdej'en
 Bugybor'ekolva r'ang.
  
 Egy, es kett''o! 'Es 'at meg 'at
 Ny"uszt''o penge nyekdes, nyikol,
 Fej'et veszi, m'aris viszi,
 S eldiadalogol.
  
 "..........................
 ...........................
 .................Jah'e! Jah'o!"
 Csuklorkant az "or"om.
  
 Volt egy brill''os, a csuszbug'o,
 Gimbelt 'es g'alt t'avlengibe,
 Minden mimicre purrog'o,
 M'om'aja ingibe.
 

Can anybody complete it?

Thanks in advance!

Jan

All I can help you with (maybe) is a piece of advice. If I were you I'd 
look up all hungarian churches and organisations in your area and ask 
their members where do they send their children to learn this beautiful 
language of ours.
  Good luck.

In article >,  (Jerry
Ostrowski) wrote:

>        As for the wages, you're right that they are much lower in CE &
>EE.  For example, according to an article in Los Angeles Times, in
>1994, the average monthly salary (before taxes) in three most
>economically advanced  ex-Soviet Bloc economies was:
>
>Czech Republic  US$275.00
>Hungary         US$250.00
>Poland          US$225.00

That's strange: I thought wages in the Czech republic were lower than in
the other two. Are you sure these numbers are correct?

Marco

-- 
Marco Bottaro
University of Amsterdam
The Netherlands

Hatha valaki nem ismeri...

A HIX-en van ketiranyu (olvasas + IRAS) WWW-kapu a magyar hun.* es a
soc.culture.magyar csoporthoz:

http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/

Jozsi.

Ui.: ez a cikk azon keresztul erkezett

Gotthard irja:

> Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
> Subject: WWW <--> Usenet
>
> [...]
> A HunOR-on van ketiranyu (olvasas + IRAS) WWW-kapu a magyar hun.* ,
> bit.listserv.hungary es soc.culture.magyar csoportokhoz:
> http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/

Kedves Gotthard:

Azt latom, hogy a soc.culture.magyar irasat ugy kell erteni, hogy
van egy pointer, ami a > cimre mutat
(es amint az idezett leveled is mutatja, remekul mukodik). Bar egy pointert
meg nem neveznek sajat irasi lehetosegnek, de hat ez egyeni dolog.

Viszont nem talalom, hol lehet irni a hun.* csoportokat WWW-vel (marmint a
HIX-en kivul, persze :-)).

Segitenel?

Koszi,
Jozsi

In article >,  (Jan Brands) says:
>
>Hi everybody,
>
>some time ago I asked here for a hungarian translation of the poem `Jabberwock
y'
>by Lewis Carroll in `Alice in wonderland: through the looking-glass'.
>
>Someone sent me an incomplete poem:
>
>
>>The translation by Weores S'andor is said to be the best one, but the
>>text given in HIX/MOKA #62 by Aszodi Andris >
>>is incomplete. Can anybody complete it?
>>-- Olivier
>>
>>
> SZAJK'OHUKKY
>  
> Volt egy brill''os, a csuszbug'o,
> Gimbelt 'es g'alt t'avlengibe,
> Minden mimicre purrog'o,
> M'om'aja ingibe.
>  
> "Vigy'azz, j"on Szajk'ohukk, fiam!
> Foga mar'o, karma f'ur'o!
> "Ugyelj, Csapcsip mad'ar zuhan,
> S a brunk'os Brombol'o!"
>  
> Mark'aban ny"uszt''o penge reng,
> Elv'agdos minden manxomot.
> A Tamtam-f'an'al megpihent,
> M'ely gondj'aba rogyott.
>  
> ...........................
> Jott Szajk'ohukk, n'ez'ese l'ang,
> S nagy k'aka-t"orzsek erdej'en
> Bugybor'ekolva r'ang.
>  
> Egy, es kett''o! 'Es 'at meg 'at
> Ny"uszt''o penge nyekdes, nyikol,
> Fej'et veszi, m'aris viszi,
> S eldiadalogol.
>  
> "..........................
> ...........................
> .................Jah'e! Jah'o!"
> Csuklorkant az "or"om.
>  
> Volt egy brill''os, a csuszbug'o,
> Gimbelt 'es g'alt t'avlengibe,
> Minden mimicre purrog'o,
> M'om'aja ingibe.
> 
>
>Can anybody complete it?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>Jan
>
Hi Jan,

The problem is not just some missing lines, but
other errors as well . . . In stanza three, for
example, the first word of the second line should
be: "Elr'agdos" (that it, "chews away," not "Elv'agdos"
that is "cuts away") . . . Below, I'll give you stanzas
4, 5, and 6, re-keyboarded in their entirety:

'Allt ferget"o eszm'ek k"or'en,
S j"ott Szajk'ohukk, n'ez'ese l'ang,
Nagy k'ka-t"orzsek erdej'en
Bugybor'ekolva r'ang.

Bal, jobb! Bal, jobb! 'Es 'at meg 'at
Ny"uszt"o penge nyekdes, nyikol,
Fej'et veszi, m'aris viszi,
S eldiadalogol.

"Szajk'ohukk m'ar nem 'el fiam?
Karomba, l'andzs'as p"osz"or"om!
Dicsd'us nap, 'o! Jah'e! Jah'o!!"
Csukrolkant az "or"om.

This should enable you to piece the whole together
in, to the best of my proofreading ability, corrected
form.

Sincerely,
Steven

Give me a break.
a: How close is that name to Jane Doe (with a tag on her toe)?
b: Why does this message appear in every thinkable news group?
c: Does anyone really think that anything still is for free?