> Felado :  [United States]
> > The professor erred. During thee period discussed, April 1941 to March
> > 1942, when Bardossy was prime minister, Hungarian Jews were not
> > deported, illegal aliens (persons without residency permits or Hungarian
> > citizenship) were. It seems that Prof. Elteto had the events after the
> > German invasion of Hungary in 1944 in mind. Bardossy neither had the
> > responsibility for nor was he the leading participant in those events.
> > CSABA K. ZOLTANI
>
> You're quite right, I read your comments out of context. I'm sorry. Of
> course that does not change my overall view of the subject.

In spite of Prof. E1lteto3's retraction, the matter is not nearly as
clear-cut as Csaba K. Zolta1ni makes it out to be. According both to
Braham and to Slachta (whose letters to Mrs. Horthy were published in
1986, so were presumably not available to Braham) the deportations
proceeded with very little regard to citizenship -- Orthodox-looking
Jews were rounded up no matter what their citizenship papers showed.
Both Braham and Slachta mention the incident at the village of Putnok,
where the local authorities asked for the papers of the Jews, witheld
the papers, and claimed that the Jews were undocumented and deported
them! Deportation of citizens was apparently quite common, as Slachta
mentions deportees at Ko3ro2smezo3 "still clutching their papers".  It
should be added that Slachta was a rather conservative Christian
politician, by no means a leftist sympathizer.  Therefore her
condemnation of the atrocities as "sliding the country off the
foundation of legal principles" carries considerable weight.

BTW I agree with Joe Pannon and E1va Balogh that Ba1rdossy should be
condemned exactly to the extent he committed crimes against humanity
and no further.  As I stated repeatedly, I don't consider the
declarations of war crimes against humanity (I do consider them acts
of stupidity, but that's an entirely different matter). My assessment
of Ba1rdossy as a war criminal rests on his crimes against humanity,
namely the introduction of openly racist legislation, the De1lvide1k
atrocities for which the buck stops with him (he covered up for the
actual perpetrators), and of course tolerance of lawlessness and
vigilantism in the execution of a deportation order that was a crime
against humanity even if its intended (as opposed to the actual)
subjects were not Hungarian citizens.

Andra1s Kornai

>BTW I agree with Joe Pannon and E1va Balogh that Ba1rdossy should be
>condemned exactly to the extent he committed crimes against humanity
>and no further.  As I stated repeatedly, I don't consider the
>declarations of war crimes against humanity (I do consider them acts
>of stupidity, but that's an entirely different matter). My assessment
>of Ba1rdossy as a war criminal rests on his crimes against humanity,
>namely the introduction of openly racist legislation, the De1lvide1k
>atrocities for which the buck stops with him (he covered up for the
>actual perpetrators),

Andras,
where do you get the idea that Bardossy covered up the Ujvidek
massacres?  From what I read in Dezso Sulyok's memoires, it was the
army's leadership that engaged in obfuscation to cover up the events.

As you may recall, there was a smaller scale massacre committed in the
Vietnam war by American troops (Lt. Kelly's company at My Li (I'm not
sure of the spelling) that took some time before it was discovered by
the civil administration.  Lt. Kelly was court marshalled for it, but I
don't recall the American Prez being called a war criminal for the act.
Even though the buc also stopped at his desk.

> and of course tolerance of lawlessness and
>vigilantism in the execution of a deportation order that was a crime
>against humanity even if its intended (as opposed to the actual)
>subjects were not Hungarian citizens.

Well, how was that different than the Hong Kong British authorities
forcibly returning the Vietnamese boat people to Vietnam?

Of course I agree that it was wrong to do so (just as returning the
Vietnamese refugees), but I am just trying to point out that Hungary was
not doing something unusual and even that was stopped after that one
deportation until Hungary was occupied by Germany.

I also agree that if indeed Hungarian citizens were deported, the ones
who were responsible for that order would have to be judged accordingly.
But Bardossy only if it could be proven that it was with his knowledge
and approval.  I have a suspicion, that cases like Putnok may have been
committed by overzelous local authorities.  I have not seen yet any
proof of that being the government policy.

Joe Pannon

Hello,

I am a collector of PEZ and PEZ related items. There are a lot of pieces
that are unique to this particular area of the world. "Coko PEZ" and
"Cukorka PEZ, peppermint Borsmenta" are two examples.

If you or anyone you know would be interested in making a small profit by
sending me some of these and potentially other new items, I would be
greatly interested.

Sincerely,
Gene

Dear Mr. Batkay,
I am sad to see that you have had such negative experiences which left bad
impressions on you regarding Hungarians from Debrecen.  I am curious about
your own history:  obviously, by your name, you are of Hungarian ancestry,
if not someone who himself was born in Hungary.  I was an English teacher
in Szekesfehervar for one year, and have overall very positive things to
say about the experience and people whom I've met there.  I was very much
embraced by my school, my students, and the community at large.  Since I
returned to the States in July, I have had contact with several former
students via email and regular mail, all initiated by them.  While living
in Fehervar, I was often invited to the homes of my students and other
acquaintances for meals, etc.  Yes, I too had my share of negative
experiences with people who left a lot to be desired in the personality
department.  But I have had these experiences EVERYWHERE in the world,
including a fair share in the US.  Yes, bureaucracy, lack of efficiency,
unwieldy inflation, all contribute to making Hungary a "less than easy
place to live."  And I too have not heard from some people who were my
friends and quite close to me while living there, though I hardly think
this is a particularly Hungarian trait.  My American friends often have a
bit of a problem with pen and pencil or e-mail too.  But despite any
problems I may have encountered, I found that with a little effort to
learn the language, and smiling at people, I made many lasting
friendships.  I still smile when I think of my 83 year old neighbor who
called me "aranyos kis lany" all the time, or the presents bestowed upon
me by my students at the most unexpected times.  While Hungarians
sometimes do present an aura of hopelessness and pessimism, one must look
beyond the surface problems to understand that this is a people with much
to offer the world, if given the chance.  I agree that it is not always
the easiest place to live, but I have absolutely only positive feelings
toward the country, the people, and my year-long stay there.  I am only
sorry you could not feel the same.
--Shannon Morris

Is this mailing list connected to Usenet ? Thank you,

Mehmet Kurtkaya

I am siding with Joe Pannon on this one Szalai ur, I chose to ignore the
pliceman remark, but now that J.P has brought it up, I will just say he
wasn't alone in the thought

Szervusz

Darren Purcell

There is bit.listserv.hungary, but many sites don't carry it; it is also
being crossposted to soc.culture.magyar - see the FAQ there or in
news.answers.

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

>I was an English teacher
>in Szekesfehervar for one year, and have overall very positive things to
>say about the experience and people whom I've met there.

Shannon,
I am especially pleased that it was in Szekesfehervar where you got that
pleasant impression of Hungary for it was also the last city I lived in
before leaving Hungary for the West.

Just out of curiosity, which part of the city did you live?  Have you
seen the Bory var? (You must have!)  Did you have any favorite "presso"
bar you liked to hang out in?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

I am sorry,but I have to but in here.As a canadian I take offence at the
suggestion of Eva(sorry Mam)and Joe.
We are not anti Americans.Maybe we are scared of there power of taking over
our culture(what evere that is) and big bussnisses.
On the other hand please please do not forget,that canadian soldiers were
and are in Bosnia under the U.N. and tried in vain unfortunatley keep the
piece there.It was bungeld from the beginning on,since we thought it will be
good enough to be peace keepers,but the warring fractions did not wanr any
of that.
That is the reason now that 20.000 american troops will be deployed in Bosnia.
But there responsibilty will be different.Try to shoot at us and you will
feel our power.
I just felt that your attack against our "poor" canadians was not
justified.I will stand up for this as much as against atisemitism.
Regards:Andy Kozma

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
> George Antony writes:
> > In light of "Janos Kiss" insisting on polluting the HUNGARY list, could
> > we please implement Gabor Fencsik's suggestion and give "Janos Kiss" an
> > ultimatum: reform or get thrown out of this club.
>
> Objection, Your Honor.  I made no such suggestion.

Apologies for the sloppy wording.

I meant Gabor Fencsik's TECHNICAL SUGGESTION about procedures, to be coupled
with individual treatment for "Janos Kiss".

George Antony

Eva Balogh and Joe Pannon have one thing in common.  They delight in
knocking the crap out of those with whom they disagree.

>Joe Szalai says:
>
>>Your eagerness to see American GIs in Pecs is a bit disappointing.  I'm not
>>sure why Joe thinks that they will be better received in Hungary than
>>elsewhere in the world. . . . . As
>>an Hungarian-Canadian I would be happy if the Americans stayed home.  They
>>are NOT the worlds police.
>
>As a Canadian citizen but a resident of the United States I would like to
>point to the least attractive characteristic of Canadians: Canadian
>nationalism which can be expressed only in virulent anti-Americanism. I used
>to think that it was a "native" malignancy, but obviously I was wrong. You
>don't have to be a born Canadian to have a inferiority/superiority complex.

Thank you for the kind words.  I never realized that Canadians who disagree,
or are critical of anything American were such ugly bottom-feeders.  Thanks
for sharing your wisdom.  I will try to be a better human being in the future.

>I welcome the American soldiers in Hungary (as part of NATO troops) because I
>am a supporter of Hungary's eventual adherence to NATO. I think it is in
>Hungary's (all Eastern Europe countries'!) interest to belong to NATO in
>order to avoid the kind of no-man's land situation which occurred between the
>First and the Second World Wars in that region.

If any decision is made about Hungary or any East European country, rest
assured that it will be made in the White House or the Kremlin.  It will not
be made in Budapest.  (Why, even Dayton Ohio might prove to be more popular
than Budapest.)

>Canadians (Hungarian-Canadians or not) might be happy if the Americans stayed
>at home but the United States is not Canada. Canada doesn't have global
>responsibilities in the world. The United States does.

>Eva Balogh
>
Yes, yes, yes.  The world has heard it all before.  Once it was the "white
man's burden" to civilize the world.  Now it is Americas. Give it a rest.
If the US wanted to make this a better world they could start by putting
their own house in order.  For starters, why are there more people in the US
without adaquate medicare then there are Canadians?  Why are more people
killed in Washington DC. each year than are killed in the Middle East?
Perhaps it's the depth of Americas problems that makes them look abroad.
Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.  Where were
the Americans in October 1956?

Joe Szalai

Darren Purcell wrote,

>I am siding with Joe Pannon on this one Szalai ur, I chose to ignore the
>pliceman remark, but now that J.P has brought it up, I will just say he
>wasn't alone in the thought
>
>Szervusz
>
>Darren Purcell

Joe Pannon also called me arrogant, and, in a back handed way, an
anti-semite.  Do you agree with all that or just his comment that I am
anti-American?

What is so wrong with calling American GIs cops?  If some of my neighbours
were having a conflict, we may chose to mediate or to bring peace in some
way.  If our efforts fail and the conflict continues what do we do?  Well,
we usually call the cops.  Why is this analogy such a red herring to
Americans?  Do you not like your cops?

Thank you for being civil in your response.  I don't mind a heated debate,
but if people (not you) throw shit at me, I throw it back!!

Joe Szalai

>Joe Szalai finally admits:
>
>>I'll admit that I was a bit flippant (my attempt at getting a discussion goin
g
>)
>>by writing that you and Eva Balogh couldn't seem to wait for the American
>>GIs to get to Pecs.
>
>Well, I'm glad and that should mark the end of my dialog with him.
>The rest of what he wrote is not worth my time.
>I think Eva already said what I was going to say based on my experience
>of many Canadians.  Sometimes they should be honest with themselves and
>admit who bears the major burden for their independence, too.
>
>Joe Pannon

Oh, please!  Canadians have to "admit who bears the major burden for their
independence, too."  Get a life, Joe.  In the words of Oscar Wilde,
"nationalism is the last refuge of scoundrels".  By the way, is Hungary
independent because Newt Gingrich wants it to be???

Cheers.

Joe Szalai

Words from the elephant as leaving the china shop:

>Eva Balogh and Joe Pannon have one thing in common.  They delight in
>knocking the crap out of those with whom they disagree.

Thanks, "drusza", for the kind words.

Joe Pannon

Joe Szalay to Darren:

>Joe Pannon also called me arrogant, and, in a back handed way, an
>anti-semite.  Do you agree with all that or just his comment that I am
>anti-American?

You either have an attention deficit disorder, or deliberatly
misrepresenting what I wrote.  For I wrote nothing about you being
anti-semite.  All I did was making analogy between your assertion
of not being anti-American and that of claiming not being anti-semite
because "they did not say they were."  If to you that means I alluded to
you being an anti-semite, you should take some classes in comprehension
enhancement.

And that's all I want to say about it, hopefully for the last time!

Joe Pannon

>Joe Szalay to Darren:
>
>>Joe Pannon also called me arrogant, and, in a back handed way, an
>>anti-semite.  Do you agree with all that or just his comment that I am
>>anti-American?
>
>You either have an attention deficit disorder, or deliberatly
>misrepresenting what I wrote.  For I wrote nothing about you being
>anti-semite.  All I did was making analogy between your assertion
>of not being anti-American and that of claiming not being anti-semite
>because "they did not say they were."  If to you that means I alluded to
>you being an anti-semite, you should take some classes in comprehension
>enhancement.
>
>And that's all I want to say about it, hopefully for the last time!
>
>Joe Pannon
>
You don't score any points for accuracy.  I spell my name Szalai, with an
'i', and not with a 'y'.

It is not uncommon that when someone refuses to debate with someone they
disagree with, or has half-baked ideas, or has fallen flat on their
argument, they resort to belittling the opponent.  I must be suffering from
some form of attention deficit disorder Mr. Pannon says.  Gee.  Didn't the
Soviets have a similar way of dealing with people who disagreed with them?
Yes!  Tell everyone that your critics are crazy and lock them up or put them
in a camp.

As you pointed out in a previous post, anti-Americans, like anti-semites
don't admit to what they are, but people could still tell.  Well, you're now
saying that you never alluded to me being an anti-semite.  But people can tell!

I guess that all this back and forth between you and I means that you are
not interested in discussing the merits of American GIs in Pecs.

Joe Szalai

Hi all,

We (iSYS Hungary) are launching an interactive CD shop soon to be open, but
currently it's in the state of development. It is expected to become public
in about middle of December,  with a stock of about 200 pop/rock and N/A
number of classic titles available. The titles are *solely* of Hungarian music.

Pop/rock titles should be about $12, classic titles... Well, hard to say.

There is a current problem of Hungarian classic music. The most important
(and as far as my knowledge goes, the *only*) classical music distributor,
that has been in state ownership, now it's being sold out. The situation is
currently very confusing, news spread that PolyGram bought the label
Hungaroton Classic. So, ever since there is no real distributor for the
classical music stock, there is no real list of titles either.

But for rock/pop titles, please email me personally. We almost have all the
details ready for shipping. Payment is, for now, via VISA. Details: email me
personally, again.

best regards,

Andras Kemeny
Project Manager of Magyar Music Online
Client Account Manager
iSYS Hungary