In article >,  
says...
>
>
>        First of all Sauli Ingman and others read the following please:
>
This is extremely interesting - we never learned about this.  Is this 
then why the Turks persecuted and massacred the Armenians under Kemal?

Agnes 
>        The Republic of Turkiye was born on October 29, 1923; until then
>        there was no Turkiye and Turks were forced to live without any 
>        of their basic human rights and freedoms under the opppressive 
>        rule of Ottoman Empire which was not supported nor 
democratically 
>        elected by Turks. Ottoman Empire was an ultra fundamentalist 
>        Islamic-military emperialist dictatorship which never in its 
>        entire 600 years of history claimed itself as a Turkish state 
>        nor did it pursue the aspirations or welfare of Turkish Nation; 
>        the Turks who did so were punished by death by the Ottoman Law. 
>        Under Ottoman rule, Turks were only landless peasants with 
virtually 
>        no other options in life working for next to nothing all their 
lives.
>
>        Baron Wenceslas Wradislaw, an ambassador to Ottoman 
Constantinapole,
>        observed and documented "Never did I hear it said of any pasha, 
or
>        observe either in Constantinople or in the whole land of 
Ottoman,
>        that any pasha was a national born Turk; on the contrary, 
kidnapped,
>        or captured, or turned Ottoman."
>        
>        Ottoman Empire was controlled and rulled by the Ottomans who 
were 
>        former Christian Armenians, Greeks, and other Eastern European 
>        peoples abducted by force from their families at young ages 
>        (devshirmes), trained in a special school, and converted to a 
>        pseudo Islam to be employed as the rulers, officials and the 
sole  
>        beneficieries of Ottoman system of oppression. With on the top 
the 
>        bastard who called himself Ottoman Sultan who was the son of an 
>        enslaved concubine of many hundreds like her who were former 
Eastern 
>        European  Christians converted to the same pseudo Islam also, 
some 
>        of the Ottoman Armenians were: 
>
>
>          Gabriel Noradunkyan                   Ottoman Foreign Minister
>          Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                   Ottoman Ambassador
>          Artin Dadyan Pasha                    Ottoman Ambassador
>          Harutyan Dadyan Pasha                 Ottoman Ambassador
>          Manuk Azaryan                         Ottoman Ambassador
>          Agop Kazazyan Pasha                   Ottoman Finance Minister
>          Mikael Portaklayan Pasha              Ottoman Finance Minister
>          Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                   Ottoman Finance Minister
>          Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud     Ottoman PTT Minister 
>          Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud     Ottoman Housing and 
Urban 
>                                                Development Minister
>          Andon Tingir Yaver Pasha              Justice of Ottoman High 
Court
>          Abraham Yeramyan Pasha                Justice of Ottoman High 
Court
>          Mihran Duz                            Justice of Ottoman High 
Court
>          Bedros Kuyumcuyan                     Justice of Ottoman High 
Court
>
>        and many others, too many to mention here; even the Ottoman 
official
>        language used in foreign relations was Armenian.
>
>        Abdul Hamid II is a good example; he  was one of the most brutal 
>        Ottoman bastards who terrorized his subjugated peoples, 
especially 
>        the Turks, most brutally for 33 years from 1876 until 1909; he 
was 
>        known as the Red Sultan for the blood of his innocent victims in 
>        his hands  and Bedros, or Peter in Armenian, because of his 
Armenian 
>        features and his Armenian mother who was one of the may hunderds 
of 
>        cuncubines of his father's women slave courters called harem. 
The 
>        decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been 
>        reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the 
early 
>        moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great 
Ruler", 
>        or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" 
to 
>        the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations 
who 
>        were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of 
oppression 
>        and exploitation.
>
>        Another typical example was a man known by the name Barbarossa, 
a 
>        very successful(!) Greek Christain corsair, and a renegate, at 
the 
>        age of 67 or 68 converted valuntarily (of course to serve for 
his 
>        own benefits) to become a Moslem (Ottoman style) and an Ottoman 
>        Pasha to command the Ottoman naval fleets as the Ottoman Grand 
>        Admiral. 
>
>        Barbarossa was one of 4 sons of a former Ottoman devshirme (a 
>        Janissary) during Suleiman II times born on the Greek Island of 
>        Mytilene, the ancient Lesbos. His father was a young boy when 
Ottomans 
>        abducted him from his Greek Christian parents to convert him to 
Moslem 
>        and trained him to be a Janissary. After he retired, he returned 
to 
>        his native island took up pottery for living and married the 
widow 
>        of a Greek Orthodox priest who gave birth to his four sons, 
Ishak 
>        the eldest who was a merchant, and the other three (Uruj, 
Khaireddin 
>        known as Barbarossa, and Elisa) were corsairs.
>
>        Babarossa was certaily the role model and the leader of Ottoman
>        Naval force; in him, Ottoman system of oppression and 
emperialism
>        found a very valuable capability to enslave and plunder more 
innocent
>        peoples and countries. But the tottally unfair and unfortunate 
side 
>        of this for Turks and Turkiye is that now, according to the 
Ottoman 
>        propaganda taught in schools in Turkiye by the descendents of 
former 
>        Ottomans as the Ottoman history, Barbarossa, the Greek Christian 
>        corsair is being made to be known as "the father of Turkish Navy 
and 
>        sailors." His grave is kept as a Turkish National shrine and 
monument 
>        by his descendents in Istanbul at the shores of Baspouros. So, 
the 
>        Turks get it from every which way regardless.
>        
>
>                                        ../..
>
>
>In article ),  > wrote:
>)Ingman wrote:
>)> 
>)> E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF HISTORIANS OF TURKISH HISTORY AND BOOKS ON 
TURKISH HISTORY
>)> 
>)> I am  Sauli Ingman from Finland. I am studying history at the 
university
>)> of Helsinki.  I am  most interested in the relations between Sultan
>)> Süleyman Kanuni, Emperor  Charles the V and his brother Ferdinand 
Archduke
>)> of Austria, and the German Protestants. My special subject is how 
Turkey
>)> benefited from the German reformation as the Ottoman empire continued 
its
>)> expansion  into Europe from 1521 onwards. Do you  know of any book or
>)> article, about  how Turkey benefited from the German reformation, the
>)> German and other Protestants and Martin Luther 1521 - 1606? Moreover, 
do
>)> you know of any information available on the Internet on the same 
subject?
>)> 
>)> Are there any Turkish archiv sources on the same subject? I have a 
Turkish
>)> point of view on this subject.
>)> 
>)> I am also interested in the history of Turkey generally.  I would 
like to
>)> get e-mail addresses of historians  of Turkish history, because I 
would
>)> like to discuss the history of Turkey with them.
>)> 
>)> Please e-mail your messages directly to me. Thank you.
>)> 
>)> My e-mail is: 
>)> 
>)> Yours sincerely
>)> 
>)> Sauli Ingman
>)
>)Read Ivan N. Ostroumoff's THe History of the COuncil of Florence.  
Follow 
>)threads bavckwards to the Byzantine correspondence with early 
Reformation 
>)figures.  Contrast this correspondence up to the period of the COuncil 
of 
>)Ferrara Florence with the smae arguments of East-West differences as 
>)covered at the Counci of Florence.  What you are suggesting as an area 
of 
>)thesis inquiry has some value but not before the earlier period is done 
>)properly.
>)
>)Note the extant collection of Mark Eugenicus's disputations with 
Ottoman 
>)and other late beylik Turks, Orthodoxy vs. Islam.  Another area that 
must 
>)be thoroughly covered before you attempt the later period.
>)
>)Good to see someone working on this.
>)
>)Galina Schneider.
>)
>
>

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Paris Halts Sale of Properties Possibly Seized From   Jews

  By Anne Swardson   Washington Post Foreign Service  
Tuesday, October 29 1996; Page A12   The Washington Post

	  The Paris City Council opened an investigation today into yet
another newly discovered way in which Jews in France   were persecuted
during World War II: Apartments belonging to many of those deported to
Nazi concentration camps were   seized and never returned.

	  Adding to the sensitivity of the debate is the fact that the
city of Paris itself now owns the apartments, or the land on which   new
apartments have been built. In the words of one historian writing in a
Paris newspaper, recent revelations about real   estate seized from Jews
in France constitute "the ultimate taboo of those black years."

[text deleted]

	  Revelations about real estate confiscated from Jews also has
added to a controversial housing scandal that touches France's  
president and prime minister. Last year it became clear how many
low-rent, high-luxury apartments are owned by the city   and occupied by
a favored few -- 1,389, to be precise -- and since then, city flats have
been a source of controversy. In   1995, Prime Minister Alain Juppe was
forced to move out of his large, low-rent residence on the Left Bank
because he had   first leased it at a time when, as an assistant mayor,
he was in charge of Paris rents. Other prominent government officials -
along with well-connected artists, actors and journalists -- also enjoy
low-rent city apartments, it was revealed at the time.

[text deleted]

	  "Every Jewish asset -- whether it was a bank account or land or
building or store or inventory -- was seized and put under a  
provisional administrator," Klarsfeld said. "All these services [the
administrators] were charged with liquidating the assets."   Some of the
apartments fell into private hands; others were signed over to the city.
[text deleted]
	  The council's action today halted the planned sale of 10
apartments scheduled to go on the market Tuesday, as well as all   future
sales. Most of the apartments are in the Marais quarter of Paris, which,
until the war, had a Jewish population of   about 25,000. The new book,
"Private Property," is the first comprehensive account of the property
seizures, although   specialists have been aware of their scope for
several years. Written by newspaper reporter Brigitte Vital-Durand, it
also   discloses that the residents in one city-owned building on seized
land are none other than Chirac's brother-in-law and his   family.

	  Chirac was mayor of Paris from 1977 to 1995. The land on which
the new structure was built belonged to antiques dealer   Elias Zajdner,
who died in Auschwitz in 1944 with his three sons. His daughter has
managed to have a plaque placed on   the building, Vital-Durand writes.

	  Paris Mayor Jean Tiberi, who reacted to the initial disclosures
Friday by criticizing those who wished to "demonize the city   of Paris
for commercial and political ends," said today it would be "immoral for
the city of Paris to sell a building it had   obtained in this way," the
Reuter news agency reported.

	  Sales were suspended under heavy pressure from left-wing
members of the city council, who argued that further transfers   would
make it even more difficult for former owners to establish their claims.
In a telephone interview today, Socialist   council member Bertrand
Delanoe said that in many cases compensation may have to be paid rather
than property returned.   "Knowing the truth will be a good test of our
ability to move ahead," he said. "I hope the investigation will be done
well."   He estimated it would take at least several months to conduct.

	    A9 Copyright 1996 The Washington Post Company

Posted for fair personal use only, as a consolation to the robbed
victims of Communism in the Czech Republic and elsewhere. 

Yes, 50 years from now, all those privatizers of our stolen assets
in the Czech Republic will be deemed similarly immoral!

The world must be just waiting for us to die while even President
Havel is utterly silent on the topic.  Nearly seven years after the
end of Communism, the victims of theft remain the victims of theft
because the Czech government returns as few properties as possible. 
Only some properties are being returned -- generally the most
dillapidated and worthless ones and those that need the most
investment.  The Czech political elite (read: former Communists,
assisted by Premier Klaus) is opposed to the return of stolen
assets because they would have to give up access to vast wealth. 
And western officials, like the European Union and the Council of
Europe, are silent, and so actually help Czech postCommunist
govenment cover up a gross injustice.

: >So what?  Why must you project your American Politically Correct views
: >upon the rest of the world.  You assume that all cultures share the
: >same hangups that modern American culture suffers from.


: Mmmm.... 

: 1) I am not American, you will observe that I am posting from an .au
: domain.

: 2) I have _NEVER_ been accused of being politically correct before.


I guess I should have checked.  I must say that what you said is typical of
what one hears from the PC crowd in the US.  In some schools they don't
even let the kids say Christmas anymore.

: A "secularised" Xmas is still Xmas. If it was truly secularised, then
: it wouldn't be called Xmas would it? 

Why not?  Just because something's meaning changes, it doesn't imply that
its name must change.

: Xmas is not a universal celebration, any more than say Ramadan
: (Muslim), The Dragon Boat Festival (Chinese), Ramanavami (Hindu) and
: Hoshi matsuri (Japanese) to name just a few religious and cultural
: festivals. 

No one said that it was absolutely universal.  However, the secular
version of Christmas, in particular the American one, with Santa
Claus, Christmas trees, etc. is quite well known (if not practiced)
around the world.  I would suspect that most people in these
non-christian cultures don't even know that it has anything to do
with the birth of Jesus, or that it is religious at all. 

: I don't understand why you feel compelled to impose a religious
: greeting on a stranger whose religion you don't know, and for which
: their is a possibility of causing offence.

Who said anything about spamming strangers with XMas greetings.  And I
wouldn't be offended if someone greeted me in their tradition. Sheesh.
Give people some credit.

: Or do you get some sort of thrill out of offending people? Or perhaps
: you think everybody should be forced to be a Christian or burnt at the
: stake like they used to be?

You sure do jump to conclusions (Did I detect a hint of anti-Christian
attitude here?).  Anyway, if Christmas isn't part of a
particular culture, then they most likely won't have a word for it.
Problem solved!  Taking your logic to the extreme, we should all be
silent and not talk to anyone, not even our neighbors, to avoid the
risk of innocently offending them.

: BTW, in democratic secular Western countries I believe it is
: inappropriate to have legal public holidays based on religous
: festivals. These should be replaced with the same number of general
: purpose vacation days.

Fine with me. I would like the idea of a bunch of "floater" days that
could be combined with vacation days.  The problem for some businesses
is that it could become a logistical headache.

Frank

David S. Maddison wrote:
> 
> In article > 29 Oct 1996 23:28:08 GMT
>  (Frank Kurucz) wrote:
> 
> >: You should consider that not everyone you meet will necessarily be a
> >: Christian, and wishing them a "Merry Xmas", thus invoking the name of
> >: your god who the other person might not believe in, might make them
> >: feel uncomfortable.
> >
> >So what?  Why must you project your American Politically Correct views
> >upon the rest of the world.  You assume that all cultures share the
> >same hangups that modern American culture suffers from.
> 
> Mmmm....
> 
> 1) I am not American, you will observe that I am posting from an .au
> domain.
> 
> 2) I have _NEVER_ been accused of being politically correct before.
> 
> >: Unless you know for sure that the intended recipient of your greeting
> >: is a Christian (also bearing in mind that not all Christians celebrate
> >: or even believe in Christmas) why not minimise the potential offence
> >: of wishing them "Merry Xmas" by using a more generic greeting such as
> >: "season's greetings" or "happy holidays". Or, where there are
> >: compuslory public holidays, you could say something like "have a good
> >: winter/summer break". Anyway, you get the idea....
> >
> >This is rubbish. Many non christian countries celebrate a secularized
> >Christmas (Japan comes to mind).
> 
> A "secularised" Xmas is still Xmas. If it was truly secularised, then
> it wouldn't be called Xmas would it?
> 
> Xmas is not a universal celebration, any more than say Ramadan
> (Muslim), The Dragon Boat Festival (Chinese), Ramanavami (Hindu) and
> Hoshi matsuri (Japanese) to name just a few religious and cultural
> festivals.
> 
> I don't understand why you feel compelled to impose a religious
> greeting on a stranger whose religion you don't know, and for which
> their is a possibility of causing offence.
> 
> Or do you get some sort of thrill out of offending people? Or perhaps
> you think everybody should be forced to be a Christian or burnt at the
> stake like they used to be?
> 
> BTW, in democratic secular Western countries I believe it is
> inappropriate to have legal public holidays based on religous
> festivals. These should be replaced with the same number of general
> purpose vacation days.
> 
> David Maddison

David,
Hog Wash and Rubbish.  Why do you insist on neutralizing a very Holy Day 
in a Christians Year?  I will respect your Hannuka if you respect my 
Christmas.  Xmas is an insult to Christians that want to keep Christ in 
Christmas.  For you information the break down of the word Christmas is
Christ's Mass.  NOT X'S MASS.
Ferris
Ferris

Bob D. wrote:
> 
> Mele Kalekemaka(Hawaiian for Merry Christmas)

Mee-lad-doon Sa-eed-doon (Arabic for The Blessed Birth)

In article > HipCat > writes:
>If the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be placed in
>an nth-complexity infinite binary loop [...]

:-) I always laugh on that sentence. Every time I see that hoax about
Good Times or Pkzip-something, that is, about every three months.
Hipcat, the subject line is wrong: this message IS the virus!
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

Roman Kanala > wrote in article
>...

all the acid poured out...(P.K.)

Dear Mr. Kanala.

You get a medical help as soon as possible! You, who calls anybody at your
will anything including a FASCIST, who constantly bothers and calls the
dirty names anybody who happens to have a different oppinion than you is
looking into a possibility of suing? I must be dreaming!

You called me a fascist just because I did not like your posting "Stur
Lajos...", which I considered  to be slanderous to identifiable group of
people (Slovaks), which is hate mongering and that is a criminal offense
here in Canada! 

You are always crossposting your hate filled messages to as many news
groups as possible, without regards for the destination of the original
posting. You are even crossposting your replays to non-public groups
(SME-l) although you are aware that your addressee is not on that group.

In case your efford succeeded in getting this matter to the court in
Swizerland I would like to offer my help to Mr. Gazdik. I think there is
enough decent people reading this NG to unite and stop you, Mr. Kanala.

Have a good day!

Peter Kmet'

Hungarian:

Boldog Karácsonyi Ünnepeket kivánok (I wish you a merry Xmas)
Boldog Ujévet kivanok (I wish you a happy new year)

Spanish:
Feliz Navidad, prospero ańo, y felicidad (Merry Xmas and a happy,
propsperous new year)

HipCat
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

In article >, 
  says...
>There is no doubt that, under names as Gothia, Hunnia, Gepoda, Avaria, 
>Bulgaria, etc., there have been the Tracian-Dacian-Romans (Latin-speakers) 
>and Romanians.  

Greetings!

Romans were, of course, Latin speakers, but didn't the Tracians (does 
this mean people from Thrace=Thraki?) and the Dacians have their own 
indigenous languages before the Roman conquests? People that would be 
considered descendants of old Thraki today in Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria 
speak anything but Latin, which, anyway, would only have been used as a 
consequence of being ruled by the Roman and later Byzantine Empires. 
Even then, Greek was often used as the lingua franca in the adminstration 
of their territories (because educated Greeks traditionally made up a 
large proportion of the Roman civil service and those territories were 
anyway variously part of earlier Greek civilizations [even JC, in the 
Holy Land, for instance, is reckoned to have been tri-lingual in Hebrew, 
Aramaic and Greek]). 

BTW I'd be interested to know when Romanian was recognized as a fully 
fledged tongue of the Moldavian, Wlach and other peoples that became 
the state of Romania last century? Presumably the multitudes of local 
indigenous (and other) languages gradually disappeared (barring Hungarian 
and German...maybe some Russian and Ukrainian, too? Any others?) as the 
concept of a proto-Romanian nation-state developed before the implementation 
of the one country internationaly recognized as *Romania*.

My best wishes to all in Cluj-Napoca/Kolozsvar/Klausenburg!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC