||Re: REQ: English/Hungarian Translator (mind)
|| 12 sor
||International Contacts (mind)
|| 72 sor
||Callback spam / "Re: CIS /Eastern Europe Contacts neede (mind)
|| 19 sor
||Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)
|| 53 sor
||Re: A response to Szalai (mind)
|| 51 sor
||GIs in Pecs/Kaposvar (mind)
|| 11 sor
|| 59 sor
||Hungarian standard of living (mind)
|| 23 sor
||Hungarian standard of living (mind)
|| 47 sor
||Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind)
|| 63 sor
||Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind)
|| 12 sor
||Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)
|| 30 sor
||Re: Yanks (mind)
|| 16 sor
|+ - ||Re: REQ: English/Hungarian Translator (mind)
>:>I am looking for someone in the vancouver area that could and would be
>:>to translate a letter in english into hungarian.
>:>Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
If no one is helping you, or if you don't need your letter translated
that urgently, I can ask my friend in Hungary to translate it for you.
Let me know, okay?
|+ - ||International Contacts (mind)
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|+ - ||Callback spam / "Re: CIS /Eastern Europe Contacts neede (mind)
For those who don't know yet, Michael Dudley (heir apparent to Jeff
"SpamKing" Slaton) is the most prolific net-abuser of recent memory. For
his repeated excessive multiposting/crossposting he is currently under
sanction of cancelling his Usenet 'spam' by the admins there, which may be
part of the reason why he's branching out to abusing email gateways now. I
urge every netizen to boycott his business which is costing millions of
users to the tune of thousands of dollars combined per spam. Under US law
senders of unsolicited advertisements paid by the unwilling recipients can
In addition, individuals (as well as providers) may collect damages for
the cost hoisted upon them by the inappropriate use of services they
subscribe to - I myself am going to mail a note advising him my fees
payable for repeat abuse in the future, others may want to do likewise.
Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>
NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
|+ - ||Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)
My recent decision to alter Hungary list to "subscribers only" has led
to a number of responses. I respect everyone's right to react as they
feel necessary, and especially I respect the genuine reservations about
censorship expressed by several people such as Tamas Toth. Other res-
ponses were of course entirely predictable, and I have no desire to enter
into an extended debate about my decision.
To clarify what I've done and its consequences: Hungary list will now
automatically accept postings only from those people who have regularly
subscribed to it. To do this, readers should send an e-mail (no subject
is necessary) to this address: . The mail should
say: subscribe Hungary Your Name. The subscription process is open, and
does not filter through my mailbox.
If you prefer to read Hungary through one of the non-subscriber options,
via HIX or bit.listserv.hungary, you will want to set your list options
to "NOMAIL" so that the listserv does not send you list traffic in separate
mail items as they arrive. This can be done by sending an e-mail to the
same address as for subscriptions, saying: set Hungary nomail. If you have
difficulties with either step in this process, you may contact me directly,
Now two brief comments: rhetorical fancies can sometimes take one to such
heights that the scarcity of oxygen makes not only breathing, but rational
thinking, difficult. What happened to Janos Kiss happens regularly at my
daughter's pre-school--it's called "time-out".
All red herrings about feminist slanders, the Hungarian Lobby, censorship
of opinions, and Freedom Fighters aside, why is Janos Kiss in "time-out"?
Because his "contributions" did not (or not only) concern the opinions or
ideas of another list-member, but attacked him on the basis of his
(alleged) birth or that of his parent(s). That is racialist hate-speech,
and for that reason, and no other, did I take the step I took. Any other
listmember who is similarly attacked--not for advocating a crack-brained
solution to Hungary's economic woes, nor for disputing a beloved inter-
pretation of historical events and circumstances--but for his or her birth,
can expect similar action to be taken against the person so attacking.
I would actually welcome a thread on the questions this problem has raised,
in my mind and possibly others'. One, the classic one, is "who guards the
guardians"? The other is, can a free, tolerant, pluralistic society make
restrictions on "freedom of expression" and remain free, tolerant, and
pluralistic? That is the sort of Hungary (or any other country) I think
it would be good to work towards, but, when any element of society or the
political spectrum with another vision can use the very freedom, tolerance
and openess of the system to work against it, what then?
|+ - ||Re: A response to Szalai (mind)
Sam Stowe wrote:
>The one who's having trouble admitting he's wrong is you, Joe. I'm no
>die-hard defender of capitalism myself. What I object to about radical
>free-market capitalism and communism both is their insistence that
>mankind's greatest role is as an economic being. That pays short shrift to
>everything else that you or I do or are that makes us human. I think you
>can see the results of that obsessive focus in the cruelties of the
>Leninist-Stalinist system of the 20s and 30s and, say, Dickens London.
Our greatest role in life is not that of an economic being. However, the
economic base, or foundation of our society determines, to a large extent,
the rest of our social relations. Robin Hood could only be an icon in feudal
or capitalist society.
>I'll be glad to debate this with you at length privately, but I think we
>owe it to the folks on this list to try and stick to issues pertaining to
Oh, c'mon now! Hungary is still going through a period of change. Issues
that we have been posting about are important to Hungary. The more
information Hungarians have about 'western' ideas the better. I often
wonder how important a 'nanosecond' (is that the right word?) analysis of
the events of 1956 is to Hungarians today. How important is it to all(!)
the readers of this list?
>And as far as Comrade Durant goes, she can take her own lumps without your
>interference. Her complete absence of wisdom abetted by a singular lack of
>wit is matched only by your own. You swing wildly from one pole of
>Canadian nationalism to quasi-Marxist internationalism in a very short
>amount of time -- whatever it takes, I guess, to get a little rhetorical
>traction for the anti-American junk you continue to insist on posting
Would you be happy if I apologized for NOT having tunnel vision?
>I see you've abandoned your original thread about American troops in
>Bosnia. Guess that flamebait just ran its course for you. Oh, and thanks
>for overlooking my "patronizing tone" in a previous post. I just wish
>everyone else on the list who raised hell with you about your first post
>had overlooked your own transgressions in that regard.
Thanks for that, Sam. My dictionary gives the meaning of transgression as
"the breaking or violation of any law, civil or moral, expressed or
implied." I did not know that being critical of American foreign policy was
a sin. Your suggestion that we stick to things Hungarian is nothing more
than a pitiable attempt at excommunication.
|+ - ||GIs in Pecs/Kaposvar (mind)
>So, have the Yanks arrived in Pecs yet? What is the general feeling
>about NATO using Southern Hungary as a Logistics base for Bosnia?
It seems that, after all, the headquarters for the troops will be closer to
Kaposvar and not Pecs, but still close enough. I read somewhere that 150 men
already arrived in order to work out the logistics of the arrival of the
troops. The Americans supposed to come this week.
|+ - ||Bardossy (mind)
I was hoping that Andras changes his mind concerning the Bardossy case
because, unfortunately, I am still not convinced that he is right. The
argument that Bardossy was convicted of the wrong crime but that he was
guilty of others--the kangaroo court just forgot to mention them--rings
hollow to me. That is my first problem. My second problem is that Andras's
treatment of Bardossy is ahistorical. One cannot treat a subject completely
divorced from time and space as Andras is doing. He plops Bardossy down
somewhere in the middle of an ideal world full of people with impeccable
morality and courage, and finds him wanting. My third problem is that I don't
think that anyone could in the past or can at the present establish direct
responsibility between Bardossy, on the one hand, and Kamenets-Podolsk or
Novi Sad, on the other. If the old "official" history of Hungary (and, let me
add, the kangaroo court) couldn't, it is very likely that the case simply
cannot be made. Otherwise the authors of the official history--not exactly
sympathetic to Bardossy and the Horthy regime--would have done it. And they
didn't. In fact, they repeat time and time again the steady and dangerous
shift toward the extreme right both within the population at large and also
in the political parties. It is also worth keeping in mind that the upper
echelons of the Hungarian military were wholeheartedly pro-German. Some of
these people suggested the establishment of a military dictatorship as early
as 1937. Some of the extreme-right-wing associations contemplated an armed
coup d'etat, but luckily at this point at least the government was strong
enough to disarm them. If Andras or anyone else would like to read more about
these developments, I recommend pp. 913 et passim and 937 et passim of
*Magyarorszag tortenete, 1919-1945. Budapest: Akademia, 1976. (The reason
that I use this particular book because, written in the 1970s, it is the
least partial in favor of Bardossy.)
As for the Jewish laws also mentioned by Andras as cause for the death
sentence. They meant to take the sail out of the extre right, but with
hindsight we know now that this was not a very effective way of handling the
country's steady shift toward the right. Fighting fire with fire is not the
best way of handling matters in general. For the record, the first Jewish
laws were accepted by Parliament on May 12, 1938, during the Daranyi
government. The second Jewish laws were voted in by Parliament during the
Teleki government (May 3, 1939). According to the same official history: "A
torveny meghozatala azonban mindenekelott politikai kerdes volt, egyreszt a
nemetek megnyugtatasara, masreszt a hazai szelsojobboldali agitacio
leszerelesere szantak." [The promulgation of the law first and foremost was a
political question, which, on the one hand, was supposed to reassure the
Germans, and, on the other, to quiet down the far-right agitation.] (p. 983).
Andras seems to think that the third Jewish laws (during Bardossy's tenure)
were somewhat different from the first two because they were openly racist
while the first two were not. I am afraid that is not the case. The second
Jewish laws were also racist because they considered someone Jewish if either
one parent or at least two of his/her grandparents were Jewish irrespective
of religion. Therefore, I don't see any great difference, at least in this
respect, between Teleki and Bardossy. Thus, according to Andras, if Teleki
hadn't committed suicide, he should have been convicted of crimes against
humanity in the same manner as Bardossy. After all, both were prime ministers
at the time when parliament passed these laws and, after all, their
governments prepared the law to be submitted to parliament.
As for Novi Sad I already mentioned that Bardossy did order an investigation
but that it was sabotaged by the military. And as for Kamenets-Podolsk, I
really don't know enough about it. Put it that way, the huge (1384 pages)
history of Hungary between 1918-1945 doesn't even mention the case.
|+ - ||Hungarian standard of living (mind)
Am I correct in assuming that the standard of living in Hungary has dropped
since the collapse of the Soviet Union? Recently, the United Nations has
indicated that Canada is the best country in the world to live. And yet our
standard of living has fallen. What is the standard of living in your
country? Is it raising or falling? The reason I am asking is that I
suspect that the Soviet Union was a buffer against unbridled capitalism.
With socialism in retreat worldwide, all I see here, in Canada, is the
closing of hospitals, reductions in public spending on education, and a
general retreat on social or public services. I also see the rich getting
richer and the banks showing record or near record profits. Is there a
If there is, then Hungary and Hungarians will be in for a rude awakening.
Ironically, dreams of national prosperity, may have ended with the collapse
of the 'evil empire'.
I don't know if I am correct in my suspicions and assumptions. Perhaps
readers of this list can reflect on what is happening in their society and
post their thoughts to this list. I am particularly interested in the
situation in Hungary and other former Warsaw pact countries but I would
welcome posts from anywhere.
|+ - ||Hungarian standard of living (mind)
Joe Szalai askd....
> Am I correct in assuming that the standard of living in Hungary has dropped
> since the collapse of the Soviet Union?....
> ... all I see here, in Canada, is the closing of hospitals, reductions in
> public spending on education, and a general retreat on social or public
> services. I also see the rich getting richer and the banks showing record
> or near record profits. Is there a connection?........
> ...Perhaps readers of this list can reflect on what is happening in their
> society and post their thoughts to this list. I am particularly interested
> in the situation in Hungary and other former Warsaw pact countries but I
> would welcome posts from anywhere.
As for New Zealand, several years ago a Finance minister called Roger Douglas
initiated policies (called by the press "Rogernomics") that were aimed at
making the country "Market driven". Most major state assets were sold off or
privatised (i.e. New Zealand citizens had to buy back what they already
owned), import tariff's were almost completely removed, welfare cuts imposed
etc. Policies were put in place to drive inflation down to 1-2% per year.
Services were "centralized", which cut the heart out of rural communities
(which a majority of New Zealand is).
After six or so years of pain, our inflation rate is roughly 2%, employment is
rising and generally business confidence is high. On the other side of the coin
the promised "trickle down" effect does not seem to have worked (this is where
spending by the rich means money filters down the chain to the poor), our
health system (which used to be completely free and extremely good) has been
cut so much people are dying while waiting for operations, and our telephone
provider (which was sold) while posting record profits has never had a worse
record of service.
However the jury is still out and it will be several years yet before we will
know how successful this experiment in social engineering has been. It may
work, but so far the cost to individual people has been high!
Disclaimer: I may be out slightly with my figures, I am no economist. However
I will stand by the general tone!
# Better a dry crust # Internet: #
# with peace and quiet, # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting, # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd Marton #
# with strife. Proverbs 17:1 # New Zealand Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
|+ - ||Re: Hungarian standard of living (mind)
Eva Durant wrote:
> Hungary was not more dead
> from it's "socialism", than a lot of other countries from
> capitalism see: Haiti, Columbia, etc.
Hungary went backwards in its relative position in Europe, considering
economic development and living standards, during its period of "socialism".
Now even Greece and Portugal are ahead of Hungary, while they were well
behind before WWII.
If by Columbia you mean the South American country ColOmbia, it has been the
second best performer in Latin America in economic development over many
decades. (The first was Chile.) And dragging a personal fiefdom of a country
such as Haiti into the argument will only confirm you as an ignorant and
tendentious debater, as it has nothing to do with the liberal democracy cum
regulated capitalism model that is being tried for Hungary.
Joe Szalai wrote:
> Recently, the United Nations has
> indicated that Canada is the best country in the world to live.
It indicated no such thing. It merely calculated the per-capita wealth of
countries, now adding natural and environmental resources to GDP figures.
Canada came out on top (and Australia was second) because of large mineral
wealth and small populations.
> With socialism in retreat worldwide, all I see here, in Canada, is the
> closing of hospitals, reductions in public spending on education, and a
> general retreat on social or public services.
Contemporary phenomena are not necessarily related. Have you heard about
indebtedness ? Canada has been paying for the social services you mention
from borrowed money. With the debt high, there is not only no more scope
for further borrowing for such purposes, the money has to be paid back,
cutting the amount of Canada's own recources that is available for the
> I suspect that the Soviet Union was a buffer against unbridled capitalism.
> Am I correct in assuming that the standard of living in Hungary has dropped
> since the collapse of the Soviet Union?
> Ironically, dreams of national prosperity, may have ended with the collapse
> of the 'evil empire'.
What is evident in Hungary is similar in many ways to Canada. Living standards
and social services were paid for from borrowed money, because the country's
socio-economic system was not productive enough to provide resources for such
level of services.
Now the money has to be paid back, just when the transition pains to a,
hopefully, more productive system have to be endured.
> I don't know if I am correct in my suspicions and assumptions.
No, you are not. Some diligent reading of the development literature would
be highly recommended to provide you with some factual knowledge in lieu of
false assumptions. And I mean comparative international statistics, not
merely the reheated Marxist jingoism that Ms Durant prefers to facts.
She has amply demonstrated over some years to be beyond hope and rational
arguments. You have appeared only recently, so there is still some scope
for not being written off the same way as her.
|+ - ||Re: Information on Budapest Hotels (mind)
A friend is travelling to Budapest on a tour this spring. He
has a choice of staying in either the Erzebet or Gellert
hotels. The price difference is $ 38 per night more to stay at
the Gellert. Is it worth the difference? Can anyone make any
recommendations of either hotel? This friend is not a
particularly choosy individual, but I would hate to have him
stay in a really bad place. He is elderly, but very healthy
|+ - ||Re: Red Herrings and Rhetorical Fancies (mind)
On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Hugh Agnew wrote:
> I would actually welcome a thread on the questions this problem [Kiss
Janos and similar postings - lje] has raised, > in my mind and possibly
others'. One, the classic one, is "who guards the > guardians"? The
other is, can a free, tolerant, pluralistic society make > restrictions on
"freedom of expression" and remain free, tolerant, and > pluralistic?
That is the sort of Hungary (or any other country) I think > it would be
good to work towards, but, when any element of society or the > political
spectrum with another vision can use the very freedom, tolerance > and
openess of the system to work against it, what then?
Interesting though such a philosophical question may be, I should think
that the problem of the current list is not necessarily such a lofty one.
Mr. Kiss and his ilk are, after all, not denied access to the Internet,
they can find ample opportunity for expressing their opinions using this
medium - they could even start their own list. All you are doing is
attempting (not entirely successfully) to restrict their use of this
The Hungary list ought now to look at itself as a partnership of the
participating subscribers, who associate freely for the purpose of
communicating _with each other_ about topics related to Hungary. The
partners also have every right to establish certain rules of debate or
conduct. I see nothing unfree, intolerant, undemocratic, or, God forbid,
un-American about such an association, all the more so since no one is
excluded from it ab ovo.
Louis J. Elteto
|+ - ||Re: Yanks (mind)
First of all, they are not going to Pecs but to the airbase at
Kaposvar. They are not there yet nor does anyone know for certain
how many will be arriving. The general feeling, though, is:
"Yippeee! American spenders are arriving and our economy will
Embassy and military forerunners have been scouting the business
establishments, especially the bars, to make certain that there
will be enough Marlboro cigarettes and Jim Beam available.
A man-on-the-street interview in Budapest also confirms that the
Americans will be welcome because they will provide an image of
stability and security in the region.