Dear Historians (or amateurs),

Despite having rid myself of virtually all my books on Nazi-Soviet matters
some time ago (the subject now depresses me intensely, for personal reasons),
I'm finding that I still have this title which escaped the original purge!
viz:

Kallay - Hungarian Premier (1954) an autobiographical account of Hungarian
affairs in WWII. (hardback)

plus a more recent acquisition:

Kaszas - Inferno in the Nazi Valhalla (1987) saga of two Hungarian Jewish
families and other related events in WWII. (paperback)

Both of these are available free to the first person who would like them;
I only want the postage costs in a US dollar check or a UK sterling cheque
payable upon receiving the books.

Send e-mail if interested.

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

> Felado :  [United States]
>
> Hi all,
>
> If you have a moment, drop the kids a line.  Then, post it to as many
> lists and as many people as you can.  Since the answers are simple, they
> can be sent in most any language.
>
> It would be nice to translate the message and post it in many different
> languages - if you have the time.
>
> Make their project a great success.  Remember - we were also kids once!  :)
>
> Martha
>
> > =================================================
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Hi, our names are Stevie and Amanda. We are in the 5th grade at
> the Phillipston Memorial school, Phillipston, Massachusetts, USA.
> We are doing a science project on the Internet. We want to see how
> many responses we can get back in two weeks. (We are only sending
> out 2 letters).
>
> Please respond and then send this letter to anyone you
> communicate with on the Internet. Respond to .
>
>         1. Where do you live (state and country)?
>         2. From whom did you get this letter?
>
>                                                             Thank you,
>
>                                                             Stevie and Amanda
>
Please don't do this. These chain letters, pyramids, snowballs, call them
what you will, are illegal. They are expressly forbidden by the charter
of most internet providers, and chances are good that when you gained
access to the net you had to read and agree to a long list of rules and
regulations that contained a specific warning about these.

What the kids suggest is "please run a red light and let us know if
you got ticketed or had an accident". Sysadmins routinely throw people
off of machines for doing this, cute kids or not.

Andras Kornai

S. Bihari wrote:
>
> On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Mpflerr wrote:
>
> >           Nyaktekereszetimelfekvence  (= Nyakkendo)
>
> I believe it should be:
>
>             Nyaktekere'szetimellfekvenc
>
> Thanks for bringing back fond ( O-L-D !!! ) memories!  Was this in "Sicc"
> by any chance?
>
> Martha

To All of you!

Let's not forget that most of us ( I think ) left Hungary decades ago, and we
are not
exposed to hungarian books and papers to keep up with mel vs mell, stb.
How ever here is an other TT:
"Minden ha'jjal megkent, rafina'lt fina'nc" How would you translate that into
english?

Jozsi

Hi,
My name is Luis Paredes, and I have some friends in Budapest, Kecskemet,
and other cities. If you are peruvian or known someone of my nationality,
I would like to be in touch in so farest city, because I've visited the
city last year and would like to know more.

Thanks in advanced

Luis
My e-mail is 

>
> >I find myself agreeing with this notion. I am suspicious
> >of anyone with 100% certainty of their own views. Even about their
> >country, and especially about their god.
> >
> >Eva Durant
> >
> >
>
> How about Marx?
> Sam Stowe


Marx denied the existance of an Absolute Truth.

Eva Durant

You wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>If you have a moment, drop the kids a line.  Then, post it to as many
>lists and as many people as you can.  Since the answers are simple,
they
>can be sent in most any language.
>
>It would be nice to translate the message and post it in many
different
>languages - if you have the time.
>
>Make their project a great success.  Remember - we were also kids
once!  :)
>
>Martha
>
>=================================================
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Hi, our names are Stevie and Amanda. We are in the 5th grade at
>the Phillipston Memorial school, Phillipston, Massachusetts, USA.
>We are doing a science project on the Internet. We want to see how
>many responses we can get back in two weeks. (We are only sending
>out 2 letters).
>
>Please respond and then send this letter to anyone you
>communicate with on the Internet. Respond to .
>
>        1. Where do you live (state and country)?
>        2. From whom did you get this letter?
>
>                                                            Thank you,
>
>                                                            Stevie and
Amanda
>
Dear Martha -- please include Stevie and Amanda's e-mail address, so we
can reply.

Charlie Vamossy

Gee, you know, I really hate to jump in here, but I can't resist.  I
don't think either Eva B. or Joe S. is entirely correct.  So let me
try for a middle ground.

No, we don't want a "formal debating society," although, while stuffy
(most likely, but not necessarily always), would be preferable to the
constant name-calling and personal attacks made by both sides of a
recent exchange, from which this topic originally sprang.  It would
be absolutely impossible, too.  I certainly am not going to volunteer
to be the time-keeper.

Neither, however, do I want (nor do I think most poeple on this list
want) the type of continuing vitriol that we have recently seen.
Such attacks are counter-productive to the quality of this list and,
given some of the names people have been called, come way to close
to libel.

(I must point out here, that, unlike media libel, which has strict
and usually rather high barriers for a plaintiff to overcome to win a
libel suit, under DUN & BRADSTREET v. GREENMOSS BUILDERS,
[first case I can think of right off the top of my head] a case of private
libel involving two private individuals - yes, corporations can and
are considered like individuals - can hinge on something as simple as
malice.  Malice, the common law kind, can be ill-will, hatred, spite.
Given some of the animosity and vitriol expressed recently it would
seen some are definitely "pushing the envelope.")

Now, to the middle ground - how about people wishing to attack each
other do so privately?  Remember, for libel to occur, as few as three
people have to see the libel - the victim, the plaintiff, and ONE
OTHER PERSON.  Just because this is a computer listserve will not
negate the requirement.  If you have a personal grudge against
someone, simply write to them rather than the list.  I have nothing
to worry about - my Internet access is paid for by my university.
However, for people using commercial providers, I would think this
could get expensive, if they continually get message after message of
personal attacks between two other persons.

I thoroughly enjoy the history and culture that I get on this list.
I need the information badly, as I am new to research and study in
Central and Eastern Europe (barely five years).  I love visiting
throughout the region and I try to subscribe to as many listserves
as I can.  The information on 1956 I have kept and filed away.  It
has been eye-opening for me, to say the least.  The friendly
"battles" between the two Evas (Eva B. and Eva D.) are fascinating
and fun.  They are also civilized.

Let us find then, as Jesse Jackson would say, "common ground" and
continue lively and exciting debate, discussion, and information
sharing.  We don't need to watch two people spend line after line
nit-picking the name-calling of each other.  I think we are all much
better, much more mature, much more professional than that.

Sorry to be so legal always, but I would rather try to steer someone
away from danger than watch that person get hurt.

Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Journalism and Mass Communication
American University in Bulgaria


>At 07:43 PM 5/1/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        I missed Joe Szalai's sentence in which he expresses the feeling
>that "occasional name calling" is perfectly all right. No, it isn't. Amos is
>100 percent righ. Have you ever heard of formal "debate" in which there is
>name calling? No, not in Canada, not in England, and not in the United
>Statess. (Sorry about countries I didn't mention here.) Name calling is not
>part of civilized debates.

This newsgroup follows the rules of formal debate as much as it follows
Roberts Rules of Order.  It does neither and those who wish to control this
group only end up frustrating themselves.  And then they blame others for
their discomfort.

Those who want a formal debating society should set up their own group
because they sure aren't going to find it on any of the existing newsgroups.
Joe Szalai

>
>The role of the crown in this part of the world had an important
function to
>fulfill: to be that supranational component which could potentially
hold the
>different nationalities together. And the Habsubrgs managed to do
that,
>bungling they might have been, rather successfully. (Especially when
>compared to the track record of the successor states.)
>
>Eva Balogh
>

Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they had
promised...

Janos Zsargo:

>I will, don't worry! But just a reaction to your other post. You did not
>answer my previous posts, did not care with my arguments.

        Oh, but I did. I think it was the April Laws--as described by Istvan
Deak--which worried Vienna a great deal. All the troubles began there and
Hungarian unwillingness to compromise on issues vital to the Habsburgs.

>You simple
>covered yourself with an expert (tekintelyre hivatkoztal) and basicly
>said to me 'viragnyelven' that 'Kibicnek kuss!'. Well, this was not really
>kind.

        You mention here two things (1) I cover myself with an expert and
(2) I suggested you to shut up. As for the first. I cannot think of a better
way to learn something than learning it from an expert. I sure wouldn't go
to learn something about 1848, let's say, to some of the self-proclaimed
experts on Hungarian history on the Forum! History, as I said, is vast and
even those of us who were trained as historians know only a small, small
fraction of it well. Of course, I have a fair knowledge of Hungarian history
as a whole because I had to teach it to undergraduates. I know quite a bit
of history of other countries in the region because (1) I had to take exams
and (2) because, again, I had to teach it. But I am not an expert on 1848 as
Istvan Deak is, who decided to write a book on the revolution and war of
indepence (Attention: forradalom es szabadsagharc!). I might not know all
the details of, let's say, the military aspects of 1848-49, for that I would
turn to Aladar Urban of the University of Budapest (ELTE), who seems to know
the history of every little company. I bet, even Istvan Deak wouldn't know
all the details of such and such of hussar regiment! On the other hand,
during the years of graduate school and after, I developed a general point
of view on Hungarian history, a kind of framework within which I try to
operate and interpret historical events. One basic component of this
overview is the total lack of nationalism in my interpretation and that's
why I get so much abuse from the "patriots" of the Forum. The other
overarching consideration is "backwardness," that is economic and therefore
social backwardness of Hungary from the establishment of the state in the
Danubian basin to our day. Third, because of this backwardness and because
of the Turkish occupation of a third of Hungary and its resultant
territorial devision into three parts (Royal Hungary, Hungarian territories
as part of the Ottoman Empire and semi-autonomous Principality of
Transylvania) Hungary remained a multinational state. (I am talking here
about linquistic fragmentation.) Because of this multi-national character
Hungary reached the age of nationalism totally unprepared and their
political leaders blind to other linguistic groups' national aspirations. If
the political leaders--as early as the 1830s--wanted to save the territorial
integrity of the country, they had to do it within the Habsburg Empire.
        Having said all that now you can perhaps see why I cannot answer
some of your questions in detail. Your overarching framework is entirely
different from mine. You think that the Habsburgs were ready to pounce on
Hungary regardless--that's why the Hungarian Diet had to incorporate
safeguards against their evil intentions. I, on the other hand, think that
it was excessive Hungarian nationalism which drove Vienna to the point of an
armed conflict.

        As for your second suspicion about me; that is, that by quoting
Istvan Deak I am trying to shut you up, please don't think that that is the
case. However, I must admit that I would like you to read the "other side,"
the likes of Istvan Deak. That is those people's books whose opinions are
different from those who wrote your high school books. No, I don't try to
shut you up, but I do stick with the experts, although I know that this is
considered to be terrible arrogance on my part. (I am really quite a modest
person, by the way, but I will be damned if I admit that X or Y on the Forum
knows more Hungarian history, or know it better, than I!) I did notice in
Hungary that "experts" there have the least "expert-looking" background. For
example a lawyer who is/was the director of a national research institute on
finances. The same person also makes great pronouncement on history and he
is often wrong even about facts. Sociologists seem to grow on trees. People
wrote dissertation for the "kandidatus" degree who had never finished
college, and so on and so forth. I rather have an engineer to design my
house who finished engineering school.

        And by the way, newer history books in Hungary have abandoned the
nationalistic and Hungaro-centric point of view which have been the trade
mark of Hungarian history ever since the nineteenth century. They try to
place Hungary into the mainstream of European civilization and call
attention to Hungary's backwardness. I especially think that it is important
for Hungarians to know about this comparative backwardness because it
explains a lot about Hungarian society today. And, as I found out on this
very list about two years ago, most Hungarians never heard of the growing
backwardness of Europe from west to east. Surely, Hungarian high-school
teaching left out a few important ingredients when trying to teach Hungarian
history.

        Eva Balogh

The book cited below, translated from Hungarian, may be of some interest
to those engaged in issues related to the development of modern Hungary.

        A. Gero, Modern Hungarian Society in the Making.
        The Unfinished Experience.
        Central European University Press.
        New York, 1995  (paperback)

>From the jacket: [the book] "provides insights into the development of
political culture and the rise of civic and national consciousness in
Hungary over the last 150 years. It deals with the growth of a middle
class and the forces marshalled against it, and with the modernization
of society and the conflicts involved in the process, which determined
political and ideological trends at the turn of the century."

CSABA K ZOLTANI

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>Marx denied the existance of an Absolute Truth.
>
>Eva Durant
>
>
In metaphysical terms, yes. In historical terms, no. Nice try.
Sam Stowe

At 01:46 PM 4/30/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear List Members,
>
>I was offered a teaching job in Budapest and now the school there tells me
>that I can not get a work permit there becasue I don't have a College
>degree yet ( I am still in school ). I called the Hungarian Embassy in LA
>and they told me that I should have no problem getting one. I know that I
>need to call the school that hired me but do any of you now anything
>about work permits in Hungary?  Thanks for your help!
>
>Carolyn E. Daley
>


        Dear Carolyn,

        One thing you must learn about Hungarian bureaucrats--they don't
know their jobs very well. They don't know the rules and regulations, partly
because these rules and regulations change all the time. One bureacurat can
tell you that "there is no way you can do this or that," while the other
will tell you differently. One must be prepared--I would actually get a
piece of paper from the consulate, saying that there is no problem with work
permit, or ask them for the appropriate regulation concerning work permits.

        Eva Balogh

Frank Aycock:
>
>No, we don't want a "formal debating society," although, while stuffy
>(most likely, but not necessarily always), would be preferable to the
>constant name-calling and personal attacks made by both sides of a
>recent exchange, from which this topic originally sprang.  It would
>be absolutely impossible, too.  I certainly am not going to volunteer
>to be the time-keeper.

        I didn't really think in terms of a debating society as applied to
this list or any other. I just brought it up as a good way to teach
Hungarian youngsters rhetoric and civilized and proper way of debate.
Unfortunately, debating is not as popular around here as in England. Add to
this that Americans are less verbal than either the English or the
Hungarians. I don't know much about the English educational system but I
always thought that Hungarians were more verbal because from a tender age
they had to get up in front of a class and give verbal reports, as opposed
to the American-Canadian system, where all tests are done in writing.

        And talking about libel and suits. I read with amazement this
morning that Jozsef Torgyan is suing the foreign minister of Romania? The
foreign minister of Romania? Yes! And why? because the Romanian foreign
minister ventured to guess that Mr. Torgyan's name was originally Romanian:
Turdenau. Torgyan is suing the Romanian foreign minister because is is lie
that he is of Romanian origin. By golly, it must be a terrible shame to be
of Romanian origin!

        Eva Balogh

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> says:
>
> Aniko queried:
> George wrote: the most squeaky clean civilized ng
>>Forgive my ignorance;  but could you expound  on "ng"?
>>
>That's an abbreviation for "Newsgroup".

Yes; sorry about using netspeak.

>Uh, George, just let me put in my two cents. I don't think there's any
>danger of the intellectual life of the List getting stifled by sycophantism.
[snip]

I sincerely hope not.

BTW, the books (Hungary in WWII) have been claimed by a contributor to
this list in the good ol' US of A.

Cecilia Fabos-Becker, one of the more civilized contributors to blh, has
been recovering and should be back with us next week. She sends her best
regards to you all.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Dan Rako:

>Would that France had provided Rakoczi II with the support they had
>promised...

        Would you be a little more specific?

        Eva Balogh

To All,

Nice to see all the support for Martha's concerns which, of course, I
also share. Also, a long awaited comment from Eva on this matter, given
her prominent role on this list, was helpful I believe.

"Further, I've noticed a number of writers' names in such letters of
support which I haven't seen during my short history with the group in
recent months. Evidence of that elusive "silent majority"(?),
.......whatever. All in all, heart-warming to see.

Alan Hackett

Goodness, Folks!

If you are giving me all this support, how will I echo the Rodney
Dangerfield line: "I get no respect" ever again?

Thank you all; even to those of you who begged to differ for reasons of
your own, for keeping the lines of communication open.

That is exactly what I had in mind.

I am perennially behind in reading my mail; and when I do get to it, I am
learning from all your erudite contributions.  Keep educating me, please!

Have a nice weekend,
Martha


On Fri, 3 May 1996, Alan Hackett wrote:

> To All,
>
> Nice to see all the support for Martha's concerns which, of course, I
> also share. Also, a long awaited comment from Eva on this matter, given
> her prominent role on this list, was helpful I believe.
>
> "Further, I've noticed a number of writers' names in such letters of
> support which I haven't seen during my short history with the group in
> recent months. Evidence of that elusive "silent majority"(?),
> .......whatever. All in all, heart-warming to see.
>
> Alan Hackett
>

Take care,
Martha

Martha S. Bihari
e-mail: 

And the Winner is ........ Martha Bihari!  She wins the first annual
"Hungarian Discussion List >" popularity contest.

Read her delightful and uplifting acceptance speech:

>Goodness, Folks!
>
>If you are giving me all this support, how will I echo the Rodney
>Dangerfield line: "I get no respect" ever again?
>
>Thank you all; even to those of you who begged to differ for reasons of
>your own, for keeping the lines of communication open.
>
>That is exactly what I had in mind.
>
>I am perennially behind in reading my mail; and when I do get to it, I am
>learning from all your erudite contributions.  Keep educating me, please!
>
>Have a nice weekend,
>Martha

Congratulations, Martha!  This is such a nice end to such a tough week.

Eva Balogh, move over!

Joe Szalai

Andras,

I have just come across your words - having already eliminated over 200
messages.

Thank you for your input.

I do not see anything threatening in replying to the couple of youngsters,
since I am a licensed school teacher.  To me it looks like a typical
assignment a 5th grader in the USA would be assigned.  Perhaps I am wrong.

To all others: do not send anything to the kids, unless you feel as I do.

Martha


On Thu, 2 May 1996, Andras Kornai wrote:
> Please don't do this. These chain letters, pyramids, snowballs, call them
> what you will, are illegal. They are expressly forbidden by the charter
> of most internet providers, and chances are good that when you gained
> access to the net you had to read and agree to a long list of rules and
> regulations that contained a specific warning about these.
>
> What the kids suggest is "please run a red light and let us know if
> you got ticketed or had an accident". Sysadmins routinely throw people
> off of machines for doing this, cute kids or not.
>
> Andras Kornai