Please unsubscribe me

Greg Grose opines, in response to something or other:

> toleration != subsidy

That's all she wrote.  Greg's entire contribution is two words and one
binary operator, no punctuation even.  Greg, this is getting serious.
If you don't stop firing off these one-liners, you will end up like our
Joe, stuck in a rut, speaking in tongues, wearing bumper-stickers on your
forehead, and unable to engage in rational discussion.  A frightening
prospect.

Sneering is a perfectly good substitute for an argument, for those who
know they can't argue their way out of a paper bag and so they settle
for what they do know.  But I'm sure Greg can do better than that
on a good day.  Don't give up so easily.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

>
> Perhaps, the reason many Hungarians are not buying locally made products
> is because they participated in making those or similar pruducts.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
No, you cannot buy them anymore; my mother prefers Hungarian made
Tomi washing powder products (cheaper and better she says) but
"hianycikk", also "kismamacipo" comfortable, cheap working shoes -
difficult to get, cheap unbleached toilet papers - ditto. E.D.

>
> Gyula Horn did not waste much time. During his visit to Vienna, Horn
> emphazised that in the interest of the Hungarian minority, Hungary will sign
> the bilateral treaties about the acceptance of current borders. I am sure
> that all of the Hungarians, most of them not even allowed to learn about
> events such as March 15 of 1848, will be glad to hear about this.
>
> But what can we expect from somebody who has no problem to kill his
> fellow countrymen.
>
>                                                 Attila
Get real! If you really think 1848 was not taught you better pay a
visit to Hungary. There again, if you are into racial hatred and new
wars, then stay put. E.D.

>
> Eva Durant writes:
>
> > For the new yuppy-strata life is better, but for the majority (see
> > election results) the living standard is worse in Hungary (also in
> > the UK and in the USA in the last two decades, correct me if I'm
> Wait a second, how many votes did the sovcialist or communist parties
> got in either the US or UK elections? As I stated before the voters can
> not be smart only when they vote for the left.

I have the feeling, you won't go very far in your academic career in
the US or UK aspecially in humanities if you are "out" as a communist
or socialist (US) and I connect this environment to the total absence
of this option there. (In the UK there are  socialists so called and
they could win if they were not pretending to be conservatives)E.D.

>
> especially its Marxist version, requires one to follow the inner logic of
> capitalism to its final conclusion." What do you think that is? Eva Balogh
Its crisis, chaos, more crisis, war. The system only works if you
can make more profit, but with the size of investment necessary, profits
cannot grow any longer, or something like that. I know better the
symptoms, bad at quotes. (You have time + library and hopefully
not tied by the feudal themes of everyone should know
their place and we have here the best possible world) Eva Durant

In article >,  (ZSOLT H) writes:
>
>The DC area is chock full of Hungarian resources. In fact I think there's
>a yearly Hungarian Ball ( I attended in 1990) There's a Hungarian
>organization out near Rockville, Md, I forget the name. It's run out at a
>stable called something referring to the Pentathlon (in Hungarian). Sorry
>I can't give you specifics but I know if you ask around they're there. Try
>the translation services in town too for their contacts that do the Magyar
>translation, I remember meeting a young lady that does this for them. Good
>luck....jo szerencset!!!
>

Hi,
this is a short list of Hungarian organizations in and around
the DC Metropolitan area - I am not quite sure how up-to-date
the information is, please inform us about current changes .
Gotthard


> ===================================================================

English_Name: Cultural Foundation for Transylvania
Hungarian_Name: Kulturalis Alapitvany Erdelyert
Street_Address: P.O.Box 1487
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20013-1487
Country: USA
Phone: 703 827 5719
Head_of_Org: Gyorffy, Ilona
Code: Social

English_Name: National Federation of American Hungarians
Hungarian_Name: Amerikai Magyarok Orszagos Szovetsege
Street_Address: 717 2nd Street, N.E.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20002
Country: USA
Phone: 202 546 3003
Fax: 202 546 7689
Head_of_Org: Pasztor, Laszlo
Code: Social

English_Name: Hungarian American Coalition
Hungarian_Name: Magyar Amerikai Koalicio
Street_Address: 818 Connecticut Avenue N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20006
Country: USA
Phone: 202 296 9505
Fax: 202 775 5175
Head_of_Org: Bertalan, Imre Rev.
Contact_Person: Lauer, Edit ; fax: 216 447 7806 t: 216 371 1353
Code: Media

English_Name: Hungarian American Enterprise Fund
Street_Address: 1620 I Street, N.W. # 703
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20006
Country: USA
Phone: 202 467 5444
Fax: 202 467 5469
Head_of_Org: Tomlinson, Alexander C.
Contact_Person: Szabo, Katalin
Code: Business

English_Name: Danubian Research
Street_Address: 818 Connecticut Av.,N.W.#850
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20006
Country: USA
Phone: 202 296 9505
Head_of_Org: Koszorus, Ferenc
Contact_Person: Taraszovics, Sandor 202 265 7725
Code: Social

English_Name: Cardinal Mindszenty Society, Inc.
Hungarian_Name: Mindszenty Tarsasag
Street_Address: 4007 Connecticut Ave.,NW.#107
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20008
Country: USA
Phone: 202 966 3608
Head_of_Org: Schattenstein, Marianne
Code: Religious

English_Name: National Federation of Hungarian Americans Washington D.C.
Chapter
Street_Address: 3708 Macomb Street, N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20016
Country: USA
Phone: 202 966 3220
Head_of_Org: Kokai-Kun Tamas
Code: Social

English_Name:
Hungarian_Name: Washingtoni Kronika
Street_Address: 1727 Massachusetts Avenue,N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20036
Country: USA
Phone: 202 234 0228
Head_of_Org: Rona, Gizella
Code: Media

English_Name: Hungarian Reformed Church, Washington, D.C.
Street_Address: 2001 Massachusetts Ave., N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20036
Country: USA
Phone: 202 328 2630
Head_of_Org: Harsanyi Andras Bishop
Contact_Person: Toth Bela
Cont._P_Ph: 301 493 4538
Code: Religious

English_Name: Kossuth House - Hungarian Ref. Fed. of America
Hungarian_Name: Kossuth Haz
Street_Address: 2001 Massachusetts Ave., N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20036
Country: USA
Phone: 202 328 2630
Head_of_Org: Bertalan, Imre Rev.
Contact_Person: Dozsa, George
Code: Social

English_Name: Fraternity
Hungarian_Name: Testveriseg (quarterlly)
Street_Address: 2001 Massachusetts Avenue NW
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20036
Country: USA
Phone: 202 328 2630
Fax: 202 328 7984
Head_of_Org: Bertalan Imre Rev.
Contact_Person: Pflum Teri
Code: Media
Comment: (Hungarian Reformed Federation of America)

English_Name: Hungarian Reformed Federation of America
Street_Address: 2001 Massachusetts Ave.N.W.
City: Washington
State: DC
Zip: 20036
Country: USA
Phone: 202 328 2630
Fax: 202 328 7984
Head_of_Org: Bertalan, Imre Rev.

English_Name: American Association of Young Hungarians ; Washington DC Area
Chapter
Street_Address: P.O.Box 252.
City: Riverdale
State: MD
Zip: 20738
Country: USA
Phone: 301 696 1510
Fax: 301 933 6525
Head_of_Org: Domotor, Lauri
Contact_Person: Kovacs, Robert ; 301 552 9552
Code: Social

English_Name: Hungarian Freedom Fighter's Federation
Street_Address: 4101 Blackpool Road
City: Rockville
State: MD
Zip: 20853
Country: USA
Phone: 301 871 7018
Head_of_Org: Pogany, Andras Dr.
Contact_Person: Gereben, Istvan
Code: Social


English_Name: American Hungarian Fed.of Metropol.Wash.D.C.
Hungarian_Name: Amerikai Magyar Szov. Washington D.C. es kornyeke
Street_Address: 4240 Norbeck Road
City: Rockville
State: MD
Zip: 20853
Country: USA
Phone: 301 929 1149
Contact_Person: Koszorus, Ferenc 703 893 5836
Code: Social

Hungarian_Name: Batori Jozsef Cserkeszcsapat, 4-es szamu
Street_Address: 11315 New Port Mill Rd.
City: Silver Springs
State: MD
Zip: 20902
Country: USA
Phone: 301 933 1150
Fax: 301 933 6525
Head_of_Org: Kovacs Laszlo
Code: Social

English_Name: Taurus Systems Corporation
Street_Address: 8200 Greensboro Drive, # 130
City: McLean
State: VA
Zip: 22102
Country: USA
Phone: 703 893 0123
Fax: 703 893 0166
Head_of_Org: Horvath, Steve P.
Code: Business

English_Name: Hungarian Catholic Community of Washington D.C.
Street_Address: 6029 Elder Ave.
City: Springfield
State: VA
Zip: 22150
Country: USA
Phone: 703 971 9141
Head_of_Org: Bros, Cecilia
Contact_Person: Pulvari, Jozsa
Cont._P_Ph: 702 370 6714
Code: Religious

English_Name: Independent Hungarian News Service Washington D.C.
Hungarian_Name: Fuggetlen Magyar Hirszolgalat
Street_Address: 4301 Columbia Pike
City: Arlington
State: VA
Zip: 22204
Country: USA
Phone: 703 553 0473
Head_of_Org: P. Pocsai , Stirling Gyorgy
Code: Media

English_Name: Federation of Free Hungarian Journalists
Hungarian_Name: Fuggetlen Magyar Hirszolgalat
Street_Address: 4301 Columbia Pike
City: Arlington
State: VA
Zip: 22204
Country: USA
Phone: 703 553 0473
Head_of_Org: Stirling, Gyorgy

> ===================================================================

Would you know of any resources for the Hungarian language and culture in
Washington state.  I live in Spokane, Washington.  I have Hungarian
friends and I am looking for somewhere to learn Hungarian while my friend
learns English.  Thanks you Susan

In reply to your message of "Wed, 13 Jul 94 23: 54:17 EDT."
             >
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:14:39 -0700
From: 

Zoli Fekete writes:
> >   "The only acceptable [minority] policy is to cultivate each
> > nation's own culture and let every ethnicity to cultivate theirs"
> >sounds like a working definition of multiculturalism to me.
>  Apparently it is not working for Paul (therefore me neither),

So "an acceptable minority policy" is not the same as multiculturalism.

Maybe it's silly to use the North American word when discussing
Hungary, but I really don't see the difference between the two terms.

--Greg

In reply to your message of "Thu, 14 Jul 94 01: 00:26 PDT."
             >
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:16:21 -0700
From: 

Too bad.  Deal with it.

--Greg

Zoli, you mis the point:
*****************************************************************************
> Recently in the English-language weekly Budapest Week, there was a story abou
t
>  the recent influx of Chinese small businessmen, looking to invest in
> businesses and looking to gain Hungarian citrizenship and raise their
> families - there are estimated to be 10,000-20,000
> their now, mostly in Budapest.  Does anyone deny thcontinued presence is a
>  threat to what is left of a Hungarian identity (Yes, I now that
> "Magyars" are hard to  find, and that most Hungarians are a mix of
> several ethnic groups - my mix is 1/2 German, somce >  Magyar,
> and who knows).
 Yeah, I certainly question that assertion. If there exists such a nation
whose identity is threatened by a tenth of a percent 'alien element' then
they would have much graver problems than that presence. But I doubt that
there is any such, and ours is certainly not one.
*****************************************************************************

You're right strickly speaking. 1/10th of 1% is not significant. 1% is!
If current trends continue, there will be more Chinese and others.  That is
NOT to say they are bad people, or lesser people.  I'd just like to keep
what I have, and my heritage is threatened by their presence.

Paul Gelencser

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> Get real! If you really think 1848 was not taught you better pay a
> visit to Hungary. There again, if you are into racial hatred and new
> wars, then stay put. E.D.


First of all, I wroted that Hungarians living outside of Hungary did not
learn about their own history such as March 15, 1848. Although I was born
in Budapest and attended high school in Budapest and studied
International Economy. However, I attend elementary school in Prague
(since my father was a diplomat). Furthermore my father's
family lives in Slovakia.

Well my experience is that in Slovakia, Hungarians were not though about
March 15, 1948 only in major cities. May be my cousins were CIA agents at
the age of 10 and lied about it.

Second, I just put together a documentary on how March 15, 1948 is
celebrated by Hungarians living in the countries surrounding Hungary
based on footages I received from the Duna T.V. and conversations I had
with mayor of various cities such as Munkacs. Well guess what "real
real person"? In Carpathian Ukraines, places like Munkacs Hungarian kids
age of 12 - 15 did not even know about March 15, 1848. And the kids
grandmother said "Oh yes I think March 5, (not a mistake she did say
March 5,) is a holiday".
Repoter; -" Why do you think it is a holiday".
Grandma; - "I got a calendar from Hungary, and March 5, is printed with
        red ink."


Of course there are people who know about March 15 and majority of the
people do.

                                                        With love

                                                        Attila

P.S. My major was International Relation with focus on Marxist theory and
Soviet-Eastern European relations. Just for your info "Real person". The
rest of your note is just as big rubbish so I will not even reply.

Evocka!

I did not realize that you sign as E.D. I though you were referring to
Doctor of Education.
So disregard my P.S. except that what you write is rubbish.


                                                Your new pal

                                                Attila

According to Eva Durant Lomax's book (1976) on the Hungarian revolution of
1956 is a third point of view between two others:

"Misty eyes of Gyula Horn opposed to misty eyes of Eva Balogh. (Each rep-
resenting a /misty/ point of view?)"

Well, I haven't ever considered writing a book on the Hungarian revolution,
and, as far as I know, neither did Gyula Horn. So, comparing Bill Lomax to
us, two rather lowly participants in the Hungarian revolution, is really
beside the point. There have been some very good books appearing shortly
after the events on the subject based on personal recollections, transcripts
of radio programs, oral history, and so on and so forth. Today there is a
separate historical institute in Hungary whose task is the collection of
documents and oral histories of the period. Historians employed by the
institute publish valuable monographs quite frequently. Lomax's book is
almost twenty years old: he had as many documents at his disposal as Vali and
Meray almost twenty years earlier except without their personal involvement
in the events. (One could certainly argue about the pluses and minuses of
such an involvement but I considered those early monographs quite good.)
American political scientists and historians wrote a articles here and there,
especially at the time of anniversaries, but most of the collections were
simple rehashing of earlier books, because no new documentation was
available. Now, there is, and plenty of it, with the opening of until-now
closed archives in Russia as well as in Hungary.

As for Lomax, his worldview is a very specific one: he describes himself in
interviews as an "anarchist-socialist" (see an interview with him in *168
ora* (April 12, 1994, p. 22). Eva Balogh

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Susan Sweeney wrote:

> Would you know of any resources for the Hungarian language and culture in
> Washington state.  I live in Spokane, Washington.  I have Hungarian

Joe Pannon might. I beleive he is from Washington state.


                                                Attila "the real" Hun

Dear Mr. Gelencser:

if your heritage is threatened by the existence of other people, perhaps
you had better step off the planet.

Yours,

John Cannan

I agree 100% with Paul Gelencser. Even in the USA at this moment, there is muc
h
more nationalism (patriotins), then in Hungary. I also feel, that atleast 30%
of the US population would agree with 90% of what Csurka says, if he would be
speaking for the USA and not for Hungary.
                        Lengyel Sandor

> On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Susan Sweeney wrote:
>
> > Would you know of any resources for the Hungarian language and culture in
> > Washington state.  I live in Spokane, Washington.  I have Hungarian

Attila responded:

> Joe Pannon might. I beleive he is from Washington state.

And now Joe:

Yes, he is, but he only knows of a Hungarian association in the Puget
Sound area.  Not exactly in practical distance from Spokane.

The association's phone number is in the Seattle phone book.  Just look
for Hungarian American Association of Washington.

Joe

Marc wrote:

>> I would be curious to know if there's anything in English about arrowcross
>> who joined the communists directly after WWII. Or did they join only
>> after '48.

Zoli answered:

>I think, and
>the anecdotal pieces of evidence I've read suggested, that they
>must have flocked there as early as they could, to get protection against
>the "igazola1s" (='lustration') which happened way before '48.

Zoli is quite correct. The MKP needed membership rather desperately and they
were not too choosy when it came to new members. I think I posted earlier a
piece where I quoted some figures--like 3,000 members in December 1944 and 30
thousand two or three months later. I think that the evidence is anecdotal,
and I am not at all sure whether the documentation is all there to prove it
or disprove it. Unless, of course, we have intact membership lists in both
parties and a comparison is possible. One anecdotal story is a distant
relative of mine by marriage who was some bigwhig in the mines around Pe1cs.
I know that he got himself mixed-up on the wrong side before 1945 and was
locked up for a few months in Pe1cs. However, a few years later he became a
real bigwhig at the same mine and later (before 1956) got an even cushier job
at another mine. I assume that he must have been a party member because in
those days it would have been impossible otherwise. Eva Balogh

I read with great interest George's description of the state of dog affairs
in Australia.

>Finally, when considering such minor breeds (outside of Hungary, of course),
>one should keep in mind that the breeding stock is likely to be small and
>there is a danger of getting an inbred animal.  I have seen some pulis in
>AUstralia that were OK by looks but they were nervous wrecks.  While the US
>may have large enough gene pools in traditional Hungarian breeds, I would
not
>buy a Hungarian breed in Australia, however much I like them.

In addition to be a historian I am also a dog breeder. Surprise, surprise! I
have been breeding basset hounds for about twelve years--I have had about 16
champion bassets since the beginning of my breeding program. I think George
is quite right, the gene pool is very small in Australia for practically all
dogs. The same is true about England and Sweden. All three countries, as far
as I know, have quarantine requirements. Something like six-months of
quarantine at the importer's expense and at the detriment of the poor aminal.
As a result, close line-breeding or actual inbreeding result not only nervous
wrecks (as George put it) but also eventually inferior specimens. That seems
to be the case at least in my own breed. Australian and English bassets are
not very good. (I may add that the breed is practically unknown in Hungary,
and the few pictures of Hungarian bassets I saw showed that the Hungarian
specimens are much worse than the Australian or English ones.) In the United
States the quality is much higher and the gene pool larger but still every
American bassets' lineage can be traced back to the same two or three dogs
imported from France to England in the 1870s!

Returning to the Hungarian breeds: vizsla, puli, komondor, kuvasz--there is a
lot of interaction between breeders in this country and breeders in Hungary.
I often read in the AKC (American Kennel Club) Gazette that Mr. X. Y., famous
Hungarian breeder of pulik, is coming over from Hungary to judge at the
national specialty. Breeders often go to Hungary to buy dogs there and import
them to the United States. At the time when parvo hit Hungary and there was
no parvo vaccination available, American breeders collected money and
purchased vaccine for Hungarian breeders. Eva Balogh

Greg writes:
>> So what? Beggars were with us from the beginning of time, and now that the
>> world is richer we can tolerate a larger number of them.
>toleration != subsidy
So let me rephrase: now that the world is richer we can subsidize a larger
number of beggars.
Andra1s Kornai

On a broader note, I recall reading during my student days (yes, I could
try to look it up, and no, I don't recall the source--please don't jump on
me!) that "Red Csepel" was an Arrow-Cross stronghold before the end of the
war; i.e. that the distance from right-radical to left-radical wasn't all
that far for at least some of the workers...

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Excuse my ignorance.  Being 1/2 American and 1/2 Hungarian, I do
          not know the importance of March 15, 1848.  Can someone explain
          its importance to me?

          Alfred Gal
          

Dear Paul,
> You're right strickly speaking. 1/10th of 1% is not significant. 1% is!
> If current trends continue, there will be more Chinese and others.  That is
> NOT to say they are bad people, or lesser people.  I'd just like to keep
> what I have, and my heritage is threatened by their presence.

 That reminds me the anecdote that in Paris, shortly before the
automobile appeared, they calculated assuming that the then-current trend
continued how soon traffic would be impossible because with its growth
effects like horse excrement buildup increased to astronomic levels;
needless to say the trend did not quite continued like that ;-(... It is
not a trend but a rather meaningless comparision to take the miniscule
portion of foreigners we have now and contrast it with none in the gone days
when there were no businessmen foreign or otherwise. It's doubtful that the
Hungary's economy would ever be able to provide attractive opportunities
for more than a few thousand Chinese businesspeople.
 But the more fundamental question about your assertion that you left
unexplained: how would any presence, be it growing toward 1% or 10% or
whatever you think it may, be threatening your heritage? Will the Chinese
rob our museums, brainwash our children to be Chinese, or what?!

-- Zoli, thoroughly bepuzzled

In reply to your message of "Thu, 14 Jul 94 13: 29:05 PDT."
             >
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 17:26:36 -0700
From: 

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> >> So what? Beggars were with us from the beginning of time, and now that the
> >> world is richer we can tolerate a larger number of them.
> >toleration != subsidy
> So let me rephrase: now that the world is richer we can subsidize a larger
> number of beggars.

[Well, we're heading straight for alt.metaphysics again; or at least
into a "meandering thread with diminishing rationality".  :-) ]

Of course we can, and the question is should we?  Is this best for the beggars,
and the nation?  Is this the wisest use of public money?

And of course, if the choice is subsidy or mass starvation, there is no choice.
But if the choice is between neglect with a salved conscience, and
programs that change beggars into producers, IMHO, there is a choice.

But as this has nothing to do with Hungary, accept this as MHO, and I
leave you the last word if you wish it.

--Greg

Eva D.--

You're darn right, and not only that, they've practically phased out despoit
bottles, and they won't give cash for plastic ones.

Here's an anecdote about toilet paper. On the Hungarian version of "Wheel of
Fortune" they're giving away stuff like Tomi detergent and, you got it, toilet
paper, as prizes. Don't ask me why, and no I swear to god I never watch the
show in Hungary -- no Vanna, no wheel! :-)

-Marc

RE: The 1% Threat

I can't believe you fellahs are serious. I don't know, I just returned from
a month in Hungary and I saw no evidence of any "threat" from a "Chinese
invasion." Is this what emigres like to talk about in their spare time. Get a
life! I'm surprised you haven't dragged the Gypsies into the argument to liven
the party. For your information, Hungarian culture is very much alive all over
Hungary, and Hungarians of all social classes, in large and small ways, are
helping to nurture that culture (except for the Chips & Chicken on Veres
Pa'lne' utca, where they advertise "Mexicoi Boxok" and other linguistic
atrocities). If Hungarian culture withstood the Mongols/Turks/Austrians/
Russians, I think they can deal with imported capitalism....
***To Paul Gelencser: you're a very sick boy indeed. I would say that you
already lost your heritage--to ignorance!   -- Regards, Marc

RE; Lengyel Sandor's comments:

Ugh, another one!

-Marc

Hugh writes:

> On a broader note, I recall reading during my student days (yes, I could
> try to look it up, and no, I don't recall the source--please don't jump on
> me!)

What???  You don't recall the source???  ;-)

>  "Red Csepel" was an Arrow-Cross stronghold before the end of the
> war; i.e. that the distance from right-radical to left-radical wasn't all
> that far for at least some of the workers...

Heck, why not?  The both were for socialism, one for national, the other
for the internationalist variety.

Joe