In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>Incapable of his own wit, Goober Barfsai maims Bret Harte's

Well, yeah. Like you, I am also not a poet. Unlike you, I'm smart enough to
admit it. I look to my peers in this field, and try to learn from them.
BTW, did you translate that Nahuatl poem I posted? It's quite appealing.

To Wally and Grand Master B: Your Friendly Vital Organ

Hi, I am looking for a friend from Vietnam. He is called Tung. He
studied Bachelor of Computing in Hanoi University of Technology
(Department of Computer Science and Engineering) from 1993 to the
end of 1994. And then he left Vietnam and went to Hungaria to study
Computer . If any one know my friend or has heard about him, please
tell me .
My e mail address is 
My home address is Pham Do Dung
        12 Towers Street, Bendigo, Vic 3550, Australia
or phone number 61- 054- 424213
I really appreciate your help
Goodbye
PHAM DO DUNG

Dan Pop > wrote:
>
>It was a concerted policy with a well defined purpose.  And it was not
>directed only against Romanians.  It's also a proven historical fact,
>and your attempts to rationalize it are ludicrous, at best.

How do you know that it was a concerted policy?  Because that's what you
learned in Romanian history books?  Figures ...

>What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Romanians whose villages
>and towns remained to Hungary after WWI?

Those hundreds of thousands exist only in your imagination.  That's what
happened.

> The few thousands who're still
>considering themselves Romanians today have Hungarian names and speak
>Hungarian much better than Romanian (that is, if they can speak
>Romanian at all).  Yeah, I have no doubt they've been magyarized for
>their own good.

Not more so than Hungarians who were Romanized.
BTW, Dan, how many Hungarians did you eat for breakfast today?
Watch with all that belching!

Joe

I recently dined at Country Style Restaurant, it is an excellent 
Hungarian restaurant in Toronto. (Bloor St. west of Spadina)

AV

searching for relatives with Kurmai name.

In >  () writes:

>Dan Pop > wrote:
>>
>>It was a concerted policy with a well defined purpose.  And it was not
>>directed only against Romanians.  It's also a proven historical fact,
>>and your attempts to rationalize it are ludicrous, at best.
>
>How do you know that it was a concerted policy?  Because that's what you
>learned in Romanian history books?  Figures ...

This is also what I learned from the Romanians who had the misfortune to
live in Northern Transylvania during the '40-'44 period.  This is also
what I learned from the old people who lived in Transylvania before 1918.
Sorry, I forgot that Romanians are a people of liars and the truth can be
found only in Joe Pannon's posts.

>>What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Romanians whose villages
>>and towns remained to Hungary after WWI?
>
>Those hundreds of thousands exist only in your imagination.  That's what
>happened.

I see.  Thanks for the explanation.  (Am I supposed to buy it?)

>> The few thousands who're still
>>considering themselves Romanians today have Hungarian names and speak
>>Hungarian much better than Romanian (that is, if they can speak
>>Romanian at all).  Yeah, I have no doubt they've been magyarized for
>>their own good.
>
>Not more so than Hungarians who were Romanized.

Where are those "Romanized" Hungarians?  What is their number?

>BTW, Dan, how many Hungarians did you eat for breakfast today?
>Watch with all that belching!

Could you, please, keep your idiotic bullshit for yourself?  It's not
funny (but it's revealing for your mental abilities).

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
 (Gyorgy Kovacs)
>:You have my permission to publish this wherever you wish:
>
>To publish your crap would discredit any publication, so we would also need
>a lot of money to pay for the fired editor's pension.
>--
>Wally Keeler

I was not the one who brought up publishing, it was your hurt ego.
Remember?

> We hereby challenge Gyorgy Kovacs to submit his satirical
> take-off (imitation is flattery) of Brigitta's translation for publication

Take some memory pills mon pseudo-poet.
GyK

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>
> Gyorgy Kovacs unveils the truth for a lost psudo-poet
>|1. My version has been written solely for S.C.M.
>
>Of course, no where else would your crap even be considered for
>publication.

Because it is too similar to your crap and they already had enough of that.
>
>|Not poets, but normal people.
>
>We've never claimed poets to be normal -- they are uncommon. But, we
>concede -- you are normal -- very normal -- exceedingly so. You and the
>billions of other people around the world are normal. (/yawn)
>
Agreed. You seem to be tired. Did you have an other failed attempt to use your
"brain"?

|If you enjoyed it, I'm glad, if you did not I'm sorry about wasting
>|your bandwidth.

Still.

>
>You are so magnanimous. -- how very normal.
Just like caring for your fellowmen.

>|I got recognition in e-mail, people thought it was funny.
>
>No doubt you did -- they are the spineless jellyfish who don't have the
>courage of their convictions to post publicly -- they are, how shall we put
>it, normal people.
You need to settle this with them. They are as unknown to you as your peers are
unknown to me. Which reminds me:
>
>|2. I don't give a hoot about your peers. It is probably easy for you to
>|   get recognition from them,
>
>It's easy when there is a display of talent -- something you are sadly
>lacking.
Or when none of you are normal as you quite often claim it.
                                  ^^^
>
>|but it does not mean anything in the big picture.
>
>There are over a billion Chinese who have never heard of you or I, and it
>is likely to remain so for all our lives.
That should keep them happy!

 At any rate, I never claimed to
>mean anything in the "big picture." This is your strawman.
>
I never said you claimed that. Your memory again .....

>|3. You need to improve a lot to challenge anyone. Mainly in manners and
>|logic.                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>How quickly you forgot the crude comments you made about my 8 year old son.
It is impossile to forget something never happened. I never had crude comments 
towards anyone wo did not have crude comments towards me. Your memory again and
again ...............

> You are being a whiney hypocrite again. 
Unlike you, I've never been. You choose to call stating an opinion different 
from yours whinning. And when you can't remember or comprehend something, you 
call me names. How convenient!

>As for logic, you have a misguided perception of what poetry is all about.
If you knew anything about logic, you'd know that it has nothing to do with
perception.

>And unlike you, I am not a master of logic. Another strawman.
Yup. Just like your boring unbased referrals to your imaginary creativity.

>Wally Keeler
Gyorgy Kovacs

#In article >,  
#says...
#>

	they say that a picture is worth a thousand words.
	i say that a successful experiment is worth five
	thousand expert opinions.   the experiment (=reality)
	so far is contrary to the opinions of those experts.

HIX TUKOR MAGYARORSZAGON!
-------------------------

A Hungary.Network Kft. ( http://www.hungary.com/ ) jovoltabol a jovoben 
a HIX WWW szolgaltatas Mo-on is nagy sebesseggel erheto el. A tukor cime:

	http://www.hu.hix.com/

A tukor tartalma megegyezik az amerikai http://www.hix.com/ tartalmaval,
tehat erdemes a kozelebbihez kapcsolodni.

A HIX Arena (szinten a Hungary.Network segitsegevel) mar korabban megnyilt,
ennek cime:

	telnet arena.hu.hix.com    (Mo)
	telnet arena.us.hix.com    (US)

HIX OLVASAS NEWS OLVASOVAL!
---------------------------

A HIX cikkei folyamatosan kovethetok a magyar hun.lists.hix.* csoportokban
(pl. hun.lists.hix.tipp). Mivel Mo-on kivul a hun.* hierarchiat keves server
hordozza, erdemes az NNTPSERVER-t news.hix.com-ra allitani. Ha Netscape-et
hasznalsz, akkor egyszeruen ird be:

	news://news.hix.com/
		-vagy-
	news://news.hix.com/hun.lists.hix.tipp

HUNGATE: WWW ABLAK A MAGYAR NEWS CSOPORTOKRA!
> ---------------------------------------------

Az osszes hun.* magyar csoport (bennuk a megfelelo HIX csoportok is), valamint 
a soc.culture.magyar kenyelmesen olvashato Netscape-pel a kovetkezo URL-lel:

	http://www.us.hix.com/hungate

Jozsi. /HIX/

Gyorgy Kovacs wrote:
> 
> In article >, loomis  > wrote:
> >Gyorgy Kovacs wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Nobody ever wrote about dismembering Rumania. This whole thread is about
> >> Erde'ly.(???)
>            ^^^^^He', ez nem to"lem van, e'n nem ke'rdezdem hanem mondtam!
> >
> >ARDEALUL ESTE ROMANIA
> 
> Este mikor be vagy ru'gva akkor lehet, de reggel jo'zanul ma'r nem annyira.
> :-)   ;->

O.K.than, you nem tudom rumano, so let speak english.
ARDEALUL (Erde'ly) is ROMANIA,everybody knows that.
Now that you think quite differently about it,this would not change
the  truth : ERDE'LY ( ARDEALUL) IS ROMANIA !
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Traian Romanul

At 17:25 27/05/96 GMT, Joe Pannon wrote:
>T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>>
>>My father (who was born and raised in Transylvania) knows several people
>>who were, at various interactions with the Austro-Hungarian or Hungarian
>>state, subjected to Magyarization. Very simply there names were changed
>>because it was a Hungarian writing them down and he decided to Magyarize
>>them without the person's consent. It happened in the army and it happened
>>in the schools. All of a sudden poof! you become a Magyar. And when the
>
>You, as many Romanians, like to make this practice look much worse than it
>was when always assuming ill will behind it.  Were the American
>immigration officials ill willed, too, when they "made" Smith-s out of
>Schmidt-s, Johnson-s out of Johansen-s?  Or how about Sincai himself,
>who spelled his name "Sinkay" in his own, self-published book in 1805,
>even though it was written in Latin ("Elementa Lingae Daco-Romanae")?
>How was a Hungarian notary to know the "correct" Romanian spelling of an
>illiterate peasant or shepherd who signed his name with an X?  He
>obviously used the rules of Hungarian language to "transliterate" the
>*sound* of the name as close as he could. From this point of view,
>"Sinkay" makes sense for Sincai, especially at the age when Romanian
>literary language was still Cyrillic, pausing yet another layer of
>transliteration problem.

<snip snip>

>To assume forced Americanization from those earlier naming trends is as 
>absurd as your allegation of forced Magyarization.
>
>Joe Pannon

A very intelligent response, Joe. I have seen a copy of baptismal records
from the Banat, in which a Slavic-sounding last names were tranliterated
into Germanic-style names. Would it be correct to infer from that that there
was forced Germanicization of the peoples in the area? I doubt it. Your
explanation would seem to apply to that case as well, and I am sure that
type of thing happened often, in areas where different ethnic groups
maintained their linguistic diversity. It also reminds me that in my
largely-Italian hometown in the States, that my grandparents' last names
which were Swedish and French (Lundin and Tournier) were *Italicized* (if
that is the correct word) by many people into *Lundino* and *Tournieri*
respectively. But, this could hardly be described as *forced Italicization*,
nor was it a result of a sinister conspiracy, just a natural tendency of
people to translate names into ones compatible with their own language systems.

Very respectfully,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>

On 28 May 1996  wrote:

> BTW, Dan, how many Hungarians did you eat for breakfast today?
> Watch with all that belching!
> Joe

I don't think he ate any, see they are no good if you can't 
poke them with a pitchfork, and you realy can't find a decent
implement worthy of the name amongst the Swiss ;=)

Brigi tries her smarts at agriculture and fails miserably:
> An educated response to an analpit aka stupid prick like you would be a
> waste -- sorta like spreading fertile manure on a mall parking lot. The
> results would be -- nothing.

Even though this is not related to your hatered towards Gabor, this is 
incorrect on multiple counts. The result of such spreading would result in rich
vegetation and a manurepile of lawsuits from people living or working nearby.
 GyK

In article >, loomis  > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Nobody ever wrote about dismembering Rumania. This whole thread is about
>> >> Erde'ly.(???)
>>            ^^^^^He', ez nem to"lem van, e'n nem ke'rdezdem hanem mondtam!
>> >
>> >ARDEALUL ESTE ROMANIA
>>
>> Este mikor be vagy ru'gva akkor lehet, de reggel jo'zanul ma'r nem annyira.
>> :-)   ;->
>
>O.K.than, you nem tudom rumano, so let speak english.
>ARDEALUL (Erde'ly) is ROMANIA,everybody knows that.
>Now that you think quite differently about it,this would not change
>the  truth : ERDE'LY ( ARDEALUL) IS ROMANIA !
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Traian Romanul

OK, as you don't seem to know Hungarian lets speak English:
If you spoke Hungarian you would have caught the pun este=evening in HU, so 
what you wrote says: ARDEAUL IS ROMANIA IN THE EVENING

What we think will not change the truth: Erde'ly is Erde'ly.

Gyorgy Kovacs

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Please note the new address for The American Bibliography of Slavic and
East European Studies and ABSEES Online, which is effective immediately:

             

   
ABSEES
   
   The American Bibliography of Slavic and East European Studies (ABSEES)
   has been published since 1957. It is compiled by staff of the
   University Library of the University of Illinois in Urbana-
   Champaign, under the auspices of the American Association for
   the Advancement of Slavic Studies. The Bibliography covers North
   American scholarship on East-Central and Eastern Europe and the former
   Soviet Union, and includes citations for journal articles, books, book
   chapters, book reviews, dissertations, government publications, and
   more.

   
ABSEES Online   
   
   ABSEES Online is the electronic version of The American Bibliography
   of Slavic and East European Studies. It includes citations for
   material published since the late 1980s and is updated monthly.
   ABSEES Online is available on a subscription basis to individuals and
   institutions. 

   Registered users can access ABSEES Online through the following means:
      
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   This demonstration database includes a selection of 500 of the records
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   examples of the materials we cover and to try our interface.
   


                                        Patt Leonard
Managing Editor
American Bibliography of Slavic and East European Studies (ABSEES)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Patt's personal e-mail: 
ABSEES and ABSEES Online business e-mail: 

In article >,  
says...

>>I still find new things to learn, even in childish, arrogant and
>>nationalistic discussions, as all of these articles about Erde'ly.
>
>And boy, you do have a lot to learn!
>
>Liviu Iordache
>
  Sure ! Just cut those nationalistic crap, forgery and falsarium
that so frequently figures in these pages, and I'm prepared to learn
 - even from you. 

//Laszlo

P.S.

BTW, I did not say that there is no hill around Kolozsvar. I know about
Felek. What I said was as folows:
>Still unbelievable, to call a town *...BERG*, since it
>means *HILL* and the town is actually situated in a valley and without
>any hills around with name Clusen/Clausen/Kolozs or anything similar.
                  ---------------------------------------------------
Exactly as above. The name *Felek* does not remind me to *Clusen* in
any way. But if you find any similarities between these two names,
please let me know, you know I'm the *boy* who's always prepared to
learn. Even from you.

//Laszlo

I would be happy to e-mail you the details.
--

In article >,  () wrote:

> Dan Pop > wrote:
> >
> >It was a concerted policy with a well defined purpose.  And it was not
> >directed only against Romanians.  It's also a proven historical fact,
> >and your attempts to rationalize it are ludicrous, at best.
> 
> How do you know that it was a concerted policy?  Because that's what you
> learned in Romanian history books?  Figures ...

If the problem were clerk error as you ascribe it to then if someone made
an application to correct the error there would be no problem, right? Another
clerk would simply fill out a form to change the name back and no harm done.
Perhaps there would be a small fee, perhaps it would be waived in consideration
of the error.

This wasn't the case in Austro-Hungary. Once magyarized, a name became very
hard to change back, almost impossible. This kind of 'one way' gate where 
errors could be made easily and without any lature censure but corrections
were difficult, almost impossible goes far beyond the realm of error and
isolated incident. This *was* a concerted effort.

> > The few thousands who're still
> >considering themselves Romanians today have Hungarian names and speak
> >Hungarian much better than Romanian (that is, if they can speak
> >Romanian at all).  Yeah, I have no doubt they've been magyarized for
> >their own good.
> 
> Not more so than Hungarians who were Romanized.

I think that a comparison of Romanian language instruction in Hungary v. 
Hungarian language instruction in Romania would be educational for those who
are bystanders on these groups.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > Adrian Precup-Pop,
:  writes:
: >Tamas recently referred to the results of a
: >1910 census in Cluj as "the ethnic composition".

: >This is pure falsehood.

: >A census regarding ethnicity was never done in
: >Austria-Hungary.

: So what would you consider a fair census for 1910 ?
: Let say, would a three-page antropological test together
: with DNA analysis have made you satisified ?    ;-)

: Tamas

A comparason of religion and nationality is essential when 
determining ethnicity in Austro-Hungarian censuses.

Alex Varias

Van ebben valami magyar, hatha valaki nem hallotta:

Az agressziv kismalac setal az erdoben es beleesik egy mely 
godorbe ahonnan nem tud kimaszni.
Arra jon a nyuszi, meglatja es leszol neki:
- Szerbusz agressziv kismalac, varj mindjart hozok segitseget.
- Nem varok ! 


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
> >My father (who was born and raised in Transylvania) knows several people
> >who were, at various interactions with the Austro-Hungarian or Hungarian
> >state, subjected to Magyarization. Very simply there names were changed
> >because it was a Hungarian writing them down and he decided to Magyarize
> >them without the person's consent. It happened in the army and it happened
> >in the schools. All of a sudden poof! you become a Magyar. And when the
> 
> You, as many Romanians, like to make this practice look much worse than it
> was when always assuming ill will behind it.  Were the American
> immigration officials ill willed, too, when they "made" Smith-s out of
> Schmidt-s, Johnson-s out of Johansen-s?  

The American immigration officials were pursuing a policy of Americanization
and any serious scholar on the subject makes no bones about it. They were
actively trying to assimilate immigrant peoples who had made a conscious
decision to leave their native lands. When Hungarians made the same 
actions they did it to people who had been living their for centuries (even
if you do accept the silly hungarian version of our people's history) and 
were not in any way immigrants in any normal sense of the word. This is the
major difference between the two cases. When you are born in a country the
government has no right to attempt to wipe out your culture unless you pose
a threat to others (such as the thugee in India). This cuts both ways. The
Romanian government has no right to do the same to the hungarians in 
Transylvania and as far as I can tell they are not. 

In a previous post, I was asked to outline what Magyarization is. I 
attempted to sketch out my understanding of it. I did not use pejorative
terms in my description. You seem to want to pretend that this magyarization
did not exist. This just makes you look foolish as you cling to a fiction
that every serious historian knows is false.

> How was a Hungarian notary to know the "correct" Romanian spelling of an
> illiterate peasant or shepherd who signed his name with an X?  He
> obviously used the rules of Hungarian language to "transliterate" the
> *sound* of the name as close as he could. 

Transliteration isn't the problem and I suspect that you know it. I still
remember how my father described a case that he witnessed. The student was
asked to give his name and when he did the teacher clucked and remarked 
"that's not a real name" and proceeded to magyarize it not according to the
sounds but according to the meaning of it. I can accept a certain amount of 
stupidity and incompetence among new Hungarian clerks but this isn't the
main source of the problem. I dislike the dishonesty which characterizes 
reactions like yours today. Americans learn about the Americanization that
was done on immigrants and nobody tries to pretend that it didn't exist.
There are open discussions on whether it was or is a good idea and there
isn't much of a problem over it. 

> To assume forced Americanization from those earlier naming trends is as 
> absurd as your allegation of forced Magyarization.

Forced Americanization was a fact. There is no serious denial of it.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,
Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>In article >,
>Wally Keeler > wrote:
 (Gyorgy Kovacs)
>>:You have my permission to publish this wherever you wish:
>>
>>To publish your crap would discredit any publication, so we would also need
>>a lot of money to pay for the fired editor's pension.
>>--
>>Wally Keeler
>
>I was not the one who brought up publishing, it was your hurt ego.
>Remember?

I think Wally just got scared out of his panties when he realized that he's not
as "creative" as he thought he was, and that Gyuri is much more creative than
Wally will ever be.

Wally, you sound like somebody who can handle himself in bed...and no doubt,
often does.

Gabor

In article >,  ()
wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
> >I'm actually a very busy activist. The hungarian stuff I try to do as
> >little as possible since I agree, it shouldn't be the central issue of
> >any ideology (take that PUNR, PRM, UDMR). It's just that when the issue
> >pops up I can't seem to hold myself back too well.
> 
> Nevertheless you ought to restrain your tendency of Hungarian bashing
> because it detracts from your otherwise valiant efforts opposing the
> Iliescu regime.  Equating UDMR with the extremist Romanian parties (just
> as Tokes with Funar!) seriously discredits even your worthy efforts.

I don't think that I've done too much of this. Others might have but I think
that Tokes isn't quite the same as Funar. He has no Caritas behind him and he
is not a government official. I haven't heard too strong a case built up
against him, only vague references to statements so I haven't gotten into
that particular controversy. There simply isn't enough meat for me to sink
my teeth into on either side.

As for UDMR v. PRM/PUNR I think that there are some surface similarities
that merit contrasting such as the simple fact that all three parties are
based on ethnic lines, which I don't like much. They all tend to focus on
ethnic instead of ideological and economic explanations for problems which
I also do not agree with. Other than these two points I don't think that
I've made any comparisons or groupings. Do you have a problem with this
opinion that politics should not be ruled by ethnic divisions?

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus