One more time on this issue.

First of all about all the American money making interests from past wars.
With the exception of Finland and Iran (under the shah), none of the other
countries ever paid back to the US any of the loans of either WW I or WW
II. It is difficult to "make money" on unrepaid loans. Eventually the US
taxpayers are the ones who pay for the loans. Please remember that all
governments, including ours does not make money, it just takes away money
from the people in the form of taxes.

Secondly, the IMF is NOT a US institution, but an international one, so do
not claim their willingness to loan or give funds to a specific US desire.
Based on minimal common sense would any of you invest in Bosnia at the
present time?

Thirdly, the only way the US was willing to contribute troops to Bosnia is
if they are under NATO and NOT UN control. Thus the lack of prior
participation had nothing to do with waiting out the war. Based on the past
experience of UN activity in Bosnia, (and most other places!) i.e. "feed
the people before they are killed" and "draw today's line for the Serbs to
cross" only an imbecile would agree to UN control of its military.

Fourthly,the reason the US Congress has refused to release some funds to
the UN relates to the very expensive (just check out the wages of the so
called UN experts) bureaucracy of many of the ineffective UN agencies. (I
have worked in the past on some UN projects, it is the dreamland of
bureaucracy, if you work there, you are not responsible to anyone, not to
any government, not to any taxpayer, not any particular citizen. In many
cases, the wages of the UN personnel are much higher than that of their
native counries or of those from the industrial modern societies with equal
capabilities.
Just consider, what was the value and cost of UN presence in Bosnia.

Fifthly,the effect on the US elections is also being misquoted. The last
election was shortly AFTER the desert war and the US troops currently
committed to Bosnia would come home shortly AFTER the next election. The
desert war certainly did not help Bush and at least from my standpoint, I
do not see that Clinton would be helped by the Bosnian excursion. Would any
of you rejoice at the chance of your children or spouses being killed for
Bosnian peace?

Regards,Jeliko

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> After all, you're a good
>example of the inflated American egos that Hungarians will have to endure
as
>they enter the brave new world of market captialism.  Too bad that truth,
>equality, fairness, compassion, and justice are not highly valued in the
>marketplace.  Too bad.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
>

Judging from all the hot air you're emitting, pal, the only inflated egos
around here belong you and your coterie. I must be scoring some major
points against you, though, since you can't be bothered respond to my
observations. And gosh, Joe -- you would do just fine in a market economy.
You've already appropriated all the claims to truth, equality, fairness,
compassion and justice for yourself. Nelson and Bunker Hunt could have
used your talents back in the days when they tried to corner the world
silver market.

Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Have you given any more thought to campaigning for Pat Buchanan?

1956 is over stop living in the past. Most of you just talk bullshit
about 1956 because most of you was't even born to remember what happend.
Since you think i'm wrong answer this 2 queston. How many tanks was
destroyd in prater utca?And please stop to bullshit people . Bet money an
it you dont know what a hell you talking . So stop the bullshit and let
the Hungarian pepole alone .They dont need your help.If you want to help
get your ass to Budapest and do your talk over there.Queston #2 What was
the name of the movie play'd in the Corvin mozi October 21st. Since you
all  where there let me see . I'm proud to be Hungarian and you people
sould get a hell off the net whit you bullshit. Talk somethink good about
your country and the people.Most of you where born there I'll hope .

>
> has anyone been to Hungary in the past 6 months?
> 

yes.

Dear ,

>First of all about all the American money making interests from past wars.
>With the exception of Finland and Iran (under the shah), none of the other
>countries ever paid back to the US any of the loans of either WW I or WW
>II. It is difficult to "make money" on unrepaid loans. Eventually the US
>taxpayers are the ones who pay for the loans. Please remember that all
>governments, including ours does not make money, it just takes away money
>from the people in the form of taxes.

Well, I have to say, you are a lucky guy (or girl, I don't know you), because
nobody tried to teach you Marxism-Leninism. Otherwise you would know the
fundamental thesis, that always the owners of big companies (the 'nagytokesek')
make big businesses with wars, like Rockefeller, Ford, Krupp, etc. They produce
the weapons and those loans mentioned adove finally end in their pocket. Despit
e
that I do not like Marxism this sounds resonable to believe. So, according the
hardliners of Marxism, they do not care who pays the bill, the taxpayers of
their own country, or someone else. The state is simple their pumpkin for partl
y
to entertain the people (free election, etc) and partly for realizing their
interest.

Janos

Dear Dr.Dr.K.S,

I think I have not really understood your previous letter.  I feel
your main points are:

a, The 1.6 million as the number of Hungarians in Erdely (Transylvania,
whatever you like) is lower than the real number. This is probably true,
especially because there are many people who speaks as good in Rumanian as
in Hungarian (or as bad ..), so they can change nationality relativly fast.
Also, I heard that officially the 'szekely'-s are not considered as Hungarians
(nor the 'csango'-s,etc) in Rumania.

b, The actual percentage of Hungarians in certain areas can be very different
from the average. This is obvious.

but I could not really follow your mathematical 'hokuszpokusz', especially:

>But :         In 1.6*7 = 11.2
>                what is the % what the number 1.6 has contributed to 11.2 ?
>                There is NO answer !
>                (Only 1.6*100/11.2 = 14.29 % Hungarians in Erdely?
>                 Oooooops! The flexible statistics ...
>                 Let me be cynical a bit, do not you work
>                 in the Measure of Standard in France ?)

Maybe I missed something?


Janos

Frank Benyak wrote:

>1956 is over stop living in the past. Most of you just talk bullshit
>about 1956 because most of you was't even born to remember what happend.
>Since you think i'm wrong answer this 2 queston. How many tanks was
>destroyd in prater utca?And please stop to bullshit people . Bet money an
>it you dont know what a hell you talking . So stop the bullshit and let
>the Hungarian pepole alone .They dont need your help.If you want to help
>get your ass to Budapest and do your talk over there.Queston #2 What was
>the name of the movie play'd in the Corvin mozi October 21st. Since you
>all  where there let me see . I'm proud to be Hungarian and you people
>sould get a hell off the net whit you bullshit. Talk somethink good about
>your country and the people.Most of you where born there I'll hope .

Your logic leaves me breathless.  No, I don't know how many tanks were
destroyed in prater utca.  And no, I don't know what was playing at the
Corvin mozi.  Could it have been "Father knows best", staring Joe Stalin?

Thanks for trying to disenfranchise those of us who were not in Budapest in
1956.  Because I was living in vas megye in 1956, you may as well think that
I was in Austria.  But no doubt, you were born in Hungary.  You use the word
'bullshit' four times in your paragraph.  What is your favorite Hungarian
adjective?  Is it kurva, lofasz or baszdmeg?  (Sorry if my Hungarian
spelling is not up to par.)

Joe Szalai

Sam Stowe malencholicly wrote:

>I must be scoring some major points against you, though, since you can't be
>bothered (to) respond to my observations.

What a man!  What an American!  What a godsend!

I would gladly respond to your observations Sam, but what you have presented
so far are mere hallucinations.  And there's a big difference between the
two.  Perhaps if you scream really loud, you may be able to escape your
reverie.  I won't hold my breath though, since you insist on filling your
head with pro-American nationalism.

Have you not noticed how pro-Hungarian nationalism has effected the
reasoning and deductive capabilities of some of the writers to this list?
Like you, they don't understand that nationalism is a mind altering drug.
After a while the distinction between insight and insanity disappear.  The
problem is that if you are suffering from pre-senile dementia, you'll never
know.  You should have listened to Nancy Reagan when she said, "just say no!".

And what is it with American men 'scoring some major points?  Are politics
just a game?  Is life?  What is the score in Bosnia?  Is it 10 for the
Americans and 0 for Europe?  I am now beginning to understand why the
Americans didn't want to be part of a UN effort to bring peace to Bosnia.
With the UN, they couldn't write the rules as easily as they can with NATO.

>P.S. -- Have you given any more thought to campaigning for Pat Buchanan?

Pat Buchanan?  Oh, please!  However, I must admit that you are good at
'flame-baiting'.  In fact you're a, -- gosh, I'm getting red in the face, --
'master-baiter'.  You're the Pee Wee Herman of the internet.

P.S.  Vladimir Zhirinovsky's campaign would benefit by your insights into
nationalism.  Are you interested??  Or are you content to dangle little bits
of yourself in front of my face while the world looks on?

Joe Szalai

I tell you man.  Maybe one at the corner of futo utca and another one by
kisfaludy utca, you know where, near the corvin mozi, just one block away
from corvin koz.  what was playing? who remembers?

I seriously doubt whether knowing the answers to your two questions tells us
anything about anybody.  On the other hand the number of times you are using
the word bullshit in your brief ranting tells us something about you.  You
don't know how to curse.  Brush up on it brother. :-)

greetings

Alex a lo'ko"to"

I'm very sorry about my previous post Frank.  I didn't realize until now
that you wanted to play Trivial Pursuit.  Which edition are you playing
anyways?  Oh, never mind.  I think I know.  It's the 'My Version of History'
edition, isn't it?

OK.  Here's one for you.  'Why did the demonstrators march to the radio
station?'

Joe Szalai

Thanks to Peter Hidas for the information on Ujvidek/Novi Sad. Meanwhile I
also got a private letter whose information pretty well corresponds with that
of Peter's. Thus, the "official" history of Hungary correctly summarized the
court procedures concerning the Hungarian officers who were responsible for
the three-day massacre in Ujvidek/Novi Sad. The only discrepancy still
unresolved is that according to Braham, "under the provisions of the
Hungarian Military Code the defendant were temporarily paroled on their own
cognizance," while the Historical Institute's version claims that their
remaining free during the procedures was something out of the ordinary and
was the result of the direction intervention of the chief-of-staff, Ferenc
Szombathelyi. I am inclined to believe Braham because I consider him a very
careful scholar. In cases like this I really regret that this very detailed
history of Hungary published by the Historical Institute doesn't have any
footnotes or bibliography.

As for the German complicity in the execution of the massacre there seems to
be no hard evidence only suspicions, including those of Endre
Bajcsy-Zsilinszky and members of the Hungarian government. When it comes to
the responsibility of the Budapest government itself I don't think that it
was in any way directly responsible for the massacres. It is another matter
that Miklos Horthy was under the influence of the pro-German military leaders
and he defended them at every juncture.

As for the trial itself, I tend to side with Andras Kornai. I didn't read the
Bardossy trial's minutes (only those of Endre, Baky and Jaross) but by
today's standards those trials couldn't be called fair trials. Endre, Baky
and Jaross were very unsavory characters who were largely responsible for the
Hungarian side of the "final solution." Still, the court procedures struck me
as very odd. For example, as I mentioned earlier, the court-ordered defense
lawyers simply didn't show up in court either because they found the defense
of these criminals distasteful or because they were afraid of public
wrath--which, by the way, was considerable. The first day, the three
defendants were escorted to court on foot (cars being scarce in those days).
They were recognized, mobbed, and almost killed. (Interesting that these
indignant citizens didn't move a finger in the summer of 1944, when the
transports were leaving Hungarian railroad stations. With the exceptions of
the four or five gendarmes escorting the victims to the railroad station at
Pecs, for example, there was not one person who dared to go to say good-bye
to their friends and their relatives. The only exception was my father, who
later told me the story.)

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

A) EUROPE

Our letter-writing campaign to EC chief negotiator:  and to
Max van der Stoel, the EC Commissioner for Minorities:
 fax: 011-31-70-363-59-10 is continuing. Please
do help, because our European membership is small and reserved.

B) ROMANIA

B1) Our effort to advise the Reuters correspondents in Romania: Karin
Popescu, Roxana Dascalu,Adrian Dascalu and Marko Bello (Fax: 011-401-615-8448
or telephone: 011-401-614-6573) of all illegal acts, all violations of
international standards of behavior or violations of human rights (not only
of the Hungarian national community, but also Jewish, Roma, all) is
continuing.

B2) The number of letters sent to President Clinton, and Bob Dole asking them
to write
to President Iliecsu about the unlawful refusal to return church properties
has passed 200 and I stopped counting. Great work, thanks a lot.

C) FAX BROADCASTING
In the name of the political action group of the Hungarian Anti-defamation
League (Andrew Simon, president), the first fax-broadcast been issued
yesterdat by Dr. Laszlo Bollyky. Please sign up to participate ONLY IF your
fax is automatic. DO NOT sign up with me, but at Fax: 203-967-4845.

D) SLOVAKIA
Those of us who have expressed their opposition to the "language law" to
President Kovac have received replies from him. This too shows that he
represents a different Slovakia than does the totalitarian Prime Minister
Vladimir Meciar.
         Thanks to Eugene Megyesy, on December 16 the other largest paper of
Colorado, the Denver Post has also published his letter on the language
police. The paper's editors  have already been contacted by the Slovak Consul
asking for an opportunity for rebuttal. If the paper decides to publish the
rebuttal, we will do the same as we did with the NYTimes: I will ask you to
reply to it, just as Dr. Kovalszki refpied to the Ambassador. If it becomes
necessary, you might write something like this:

"About "language police" in Slovakia.
Under this law(?) all Slovak citizens  can be fined the equivalent  of a
year's salary, for the crime of using a foreign word or expression. There is
no more basic human right, than the right to speak as we fell like and the
civilized world should not allow that basic right to be denied to anyone. We
thank The Denver Post for speaking up in protecting that right and we ask our
political leaders, including the President to do the same." Signed by you

Also, Dr. Megyesy would like to get an ENGLISH LANGUAGE copy of the language
law. I would be grateful, if somebody would send it to him:
 and copy me, so I would know that it been done.

E) SERBIA-VOJVODINA
On the 16th of December, yet an other major American paper published my
article: "Our Blind Spot for Vojvodina." We should keep up this effort.
Please write to your local papers, taking advantage of the fact that our
G.I.'s are there.
           We have a great ally in OMRI (Open Media Research Institute),
which quotes the SERBIAN HELSINKI COMMITTEE in it's report as follows: "The
ethnic Hungarian community might disappear, because of discrimination. Some
30,000 young Hungarians have already fled..while dozens of families have been
turned out of their homes to make room for Serb refugees." Please give
maximum exposure to this report.
           The editors of Szivarvany (a literary magazine) were not allowed
to bring copies of their Hungarian language magazine into Serbia (Vojvodina).
This appears to be an illegal restriction. If any of you are familiar with
the applicable regulations or if you know where we should protest, please let
me know.

F) RECOGNITION OF LEADERS
If you feel that in the future, the Hungarian Government should also
recognise the human rights efforts of Tokes, Marko, Duray, Bauer and Agoston,
you might  make that recommendation to Mr. Csaba Tabajdi at fax:
011-361-268-3142

E) THE DANUBE
Before I leave, I will write up the "Compromise Plan". (An editor of mine
died and I on top of what I do, I also had to take over his book, which made
it difficult for me to keep up.) With the help of the 9 major environmental
organizations, we plan to mount the same kind of effort as did the
anti-nuclear lobby against French testing. You could help me a lot, if you
knew how we could post Danube related material on the Internet?

F) AFTER JANUARY 1

Before January 1, I will send the addresses of all HL participants to all of
you and also to . Therefore our work CAN AND WILL continue in
my absence (I will be back from The Hague on February 18), but it will
continue only if you help. So please initiate your own actions in that time
period and keep up the momentum. In the meanwhile, if any of your friends
would want to join HL, please send me their E-mail numbers.
          After January 1, you can sign on by addressing an E-mail to:
 and writing in THE BODY TEXT: subscribe hl
          If you want to stop participating in the work of the Hungarian
Lobby, send an E-mail to:  and write in the BODY TEXT:
unsubscribe hl
          The HL is not a debating society, it is an action group. Feel free
to post any suggestion for action and PLEASE DO POST ALL LETTERS YOU SEND TO
THE PRESS OR TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVES. These will give ideas to others. Good
ideas will have many followers, bad ones might have none. Our goal is to
amplify our voice and influence in protecting our oppressed brethren. While
some 25% of the HL participants do not speak Hungarian, there are also those
who do not speak English, so occasionally there will be letters posted in
Hungarian, particularly, if the action is directed at Hungarian officials.

Merry Holydays, Happy New Year and best regars: Bela Liptak

Dear Fellow-listmembers,

Prof. Bela Liptak's ruminations on the meanings of assimilation and
identity in his own family past history struck me as very moving and
I'd like to thank him for it.

He also inadvertently cleared up a small mystery for me -- why the spicy
paprika-flavored sausage that is _not_ Hungarian salami is always called
in Czech language "cabajka" (that's got a "hachek" on the "c", so it's
pronounced "csabajka").  Clearly, whatever the reason, in the longstanding
friendly rivalry over whose sausage was better, Gyula's or Bekescsaba's,
as far as the Czechs are concerned, the assimilated Slovaks of Csaba
won hands down.  I should clarify that these sausages are called "cabajka"
_even when on the label wrapper you can clearly see that they are in fact
Gyulai klobasz_!

Perhaps I should add immediately that by this I do not intend to start
badmouthing Gyula... ;-)

Sincerely

Hugh Agnew

back in Prague for the Christmas holidays

Haliho,

I was waiting for this topic to come up again. This past summer (@ July) I got
into it with Mr. Purcell and Donea about Erdely (Siebensburg). I wish I had the
original post. Anyway, It's funny to see how people have jumped on this "It's
water under the bridge." bandwagon. Donea suggests, "Wait till we get into the
EU." Why?? Is it not an important enough issue to settle, before we get in??
What's the rush to get in?? Do you, really, want want the EU to decide the
issue?? It would probably be more messy than it is, already. Some people, such
as, Krisztyan Sanyi, would like to have borders redrawn, which would be a
monumental undertaking. Autonomous Siebensburg sound like a good idea, but then
you'd have to draw boundaries, there as well. So what the solution?? Ignoring
the past is definitely not one of them. Look at Marshall Tito's success story:
The former Yugoslavia. Bottled up tensions, since WW2 erupt into this mess we
have today.

Let's summarize the spawn of this latest round of Croat vs. Slav.  From the
12th century till the end of the first World War, the Croats (Horvatok) had
been living in political union with Hungary. The kings of Hungary preserved the
seperate statehood and identity of their Croat domain. At the end of the first
World War, however, Croatia and other territories, were transferred by the
Paris "peacemakers" to the established Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and
Slovenes. In deference to
President Wilson, Hungary didn't ask for the return of Croatia. (Mistake)

The Serbs, on the other hand, were less fortunate than their Croat counterparts
throughout history. The Serbs were constantly being battered by the Turks;
earliest battle being the battle of Kosovo in 1389. Hence, up until the 19th
century, the Serbs were under Ottoman control. Previous to 1389 the Serbs
always leaned towards Byzantium, where as the Croats sided with Rome.

The Croats never wanted to be part of Yugoslavia. There were folks who wanted
Croatia to be an independent state solely by peaceful means, such as Stephen
Raditch, of the Croat Republican Peasant Party, but he wound up boycotting the
Belgrade Parliment. For this he was murdered on June 28, 1928. This wasn't
helpful for Croat-Serb relations, since it was a Serb Centralist, Punish
Ratshich, that shot him.

Out of this murder, grew a Croat National Movement unifying youth groups and
other independence groups called the Domobranski Pokret . They published a
newspaper, the Hrvatski Domobran, which told of Raditch's murder by the Serbs.
Croats on the 10th anniversary  of the founding of Yugoslavia (Jan. 12, 1929),
took the streets of Zagreb. Such was the pressure of demonstrators, that King
Alexander ordered the Yugoslav Army off the streets.

Needless to say, riots broke out everywhere, thus filling Yugoslav jails with
Croats. Many involved in the movement fled the country. One leader was revered
more than any other, even by Croats in the US, Ante Pavelitch. He was accepted
as Croat national leader. He also had an anti-violent stance, but soon changed
during a visit to Sofia, Bulgaria when he found out that Belgrade had issued a
death warrant on him. It was then (1931) that a "hard group" was formed within
the Croat National Movement. This "hard-core" group came to be known as the
Ustasha and Pavelitch became it's leader, the Poglavnik. This group was akin to
the IRA being the extension of Sinn Fein.

As Serbs exerted more force on Croats in Yugoslavia the Ustashi announced King
Alexander I's death sentence in Belgium and it's motives a few days before the
king's assasinationation in Pittsburgh, in the US. (Hey, this is similar to the
report Joe Szalai obtained about the Iron Guard being alive and well around the
world. Hey, could they announce a death sentence on anyone involved in the
Hungarian Human Rights struggle in Romania. ;-) )

Then came WW2. Nazi Germany sided with the Ustashis, while General Draza
Mihajlovich defended Serbian interests. They were the first guerillas to side
with the Allies in Yugoslavia. Despite cruel tactics by the Ustashis exacted on
the Serbs, fact is that Ustashis stayed primarily in Croatian territory and
didn't fire a shot against western Allied forces.

While the Ustashi vs Chetnik fight raged on, Tito (a Croat communist) led a
Soviet backed force of 200,000 Yugoslav Partisans against the Ustashis, first,
and turned against the Chetnik Royalists (nice guy, right?) By 1943 Tito was
dominant in the Anti-Fascist Council for Liberation, which controlled one third
of Yugoslavia. He was recognized by the Allies as their sole ally in
Yugoslavia. Tito used this status to knock out everyone in his path. He
decimated the Chetniks, bumped off King Peter II, as well as exterminating the
Ustashis, down to the last person, a policy that continued long after the war
was over.

The British Military Command gave a "green-light" for Tito to slaughter 500,000
Croat civilians, soldiers, and anyone remotely involved with the Ustashi. The
British refused to accept the surrender of the Croat Army, when it was bound to
do so by the Geneva Convention. This allowed the systematic slaughter of Croats
by Tito's partisans. On May 16, 1945 near the Austro-Yugoslav border 50,000
Croat soldiers were executed. Croatians who surrendered to the British in
Austria were sent back, despite promises of them being sent to POW camps in
Italy.

Serbs, by the way, didn't get off either. As a "thank you" gesture to the
Chetniks; General Mihajlovich was hanged in 1946.

So, to the Darren Purcells, Constantin Doneas, Eva Baloghs, and those who say
"Get Over It" are way out of line. Tell that to those Croats, Serbs, and
Muslims fighting now. All these above events have been suppressed by Tito for
years. Tito preached that his partisans saved Yugoslavia from the scourge of
the Ustashi, thus laying a guilt trip on Croats for years. And the funny thing
is, we (western world) ate that shit up along with the rest of his propaganda.
We embraced him and that other asshole Ceaucescu because they were Anti-Soviet.
Remember how the media kissed so much ass during the Olympics in 1984?? Then in
1994 they had specials on what went wrong. Hah!!

So to just simply blow off the past, like it never happened is the biggest
amount of majom geci I've heard in my life. Darren should tell his students to
burn their history books. It doesn't count. How fucking ignorant can one be??
It's bad enough that American kids don't know history from a hysterectomy, let
alone the ills of Eastern European relations. They all think this shit happened
yesterday because some Croat told a "Your mother joke" to a Serb and got
offended.

On a less severe scale, there are people on this list who have the same
attitude about Romania-Hungary or Slovak-Hungary relations. "Forget the past
and let's bargain." Bargain?! Since when were people on sale?? How novel an
idea!!!

Question is: Why should we have to deal with those leaders who are making life
tough for all minorities?? Why should we bow to their terms?? Those leaders are
the irrational ones, not us on this list. I don't about the rest of you, but
for me this is solely a human rights issue. I don't want to redraw borders or
have an Autonomous Transylvania. Just assure me that those minorities won't be
fucked with. Then maybe we'll talk EU. If it takes that much longer to get into
the EU because we "can't get over it" then fine. It's well worth it. Maybe
someone will listen up for once in their lives.
So, bollocks to Purcell, Donea, and Balogh!!! :-P

Sziasztok,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
:
: Let's assume that our
: Hungarian-Canadian's daughter marries a young man of mixed Ukrainian and
: Scottish origin from Manitoba. What will happen to the grandchildren? Will
: they be Ukrainian-Scottish-Hungarian Canadians? i

well, such a child is entitled to canadian, hungarian, ukrainian citizenship
as a birthright. modifications to regulations may have removed the right
to scottish nationality, but as recently as twenty years ago that would
have ben automatic. to this extent, the hyphenations are quite understandable.
moreover, if one of the grandparents were greek, then the person, even if
he does not speak a word of greek, is liable to compulsory military service
should he enter greece at the apropriate age and be recognised to be of
greek nationality. other countries are more restrictive/generous concerning
the nationality question. one child in canberra is entitled to four pasports:
australian, english, hungarian and irish, just such a case --- i believe she
has travelling documents from all four ocuntries. to that extent it seems
legitimate to hyphenate.

d.a.

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Pat Buchanan?  Oh, please!  However, I must admit that you are good at
>'flame-baiting'.  In fact you're a, -- gosh, I'm getting red in the face,
--
>'master-baiter'.  You're the Pee Wee Herman of the internet.
>
>P.S.  Vladimir Zhirinovsky's campaign would benefit by your insights into
>nationalism.  Are you interested??  Or are you content to dangle little
bits
>of yourself in front of my face while the world looks on?

Boy, Joe, that Buchanan shot of mine really pissed you off, didn't it? I
wonder how you'd react if I linked you intellectually to Newtie-poo? Come
to think of it, you guys do share a certain flair for going off
half-cocked in public forums.

Sam "Back to you, Joe" Stowe

>The Croats never wanted to be part of Yugoslavia. There were folks who wanted
>Croatia to be an independent state solely by peaceful means, such as Stephen
>Raditch, of the Croat Republican Peasant Party, but he wound up boycotting the
>Belgrade Parliment. For this he was murdered on June 28, 1928. This wasn't
>helpful for Croat-Serb relations, since it was a Serb Centralist, Punish
>Ratshich, that shot him.

The post-world war one union of the southern Slavs was initiated by the
Croats in Zagreb.

. One leader was revered
>more than any other, even by Croats in the US, Ante Pavelitch. He was accepted
>as Croat national leader. He also had an anti-violent stance, but soon changed
>during a visit to Sofia, Bulgaria when he found out that Belgrade had issued a
>death warrant on him. It was then (1931) that a "hard group" was formed within
>the Croat National Movement. This "hard-core" group came to be known as the
>Ustasha and Pavelitch became it's leader, the Poglavnik. This group was akin t
o
>the IRA being the extension of Sinn Fein.

There is more to Pavelitch than the above. He is one of the best known mass
murderer who ever operated in South Eastern Europe during the Second World
War. His SS friends were horrified at his actions against defenseless men,
women, children; mainly but not exculsively Serbs and Jews.

>Mihajlovich defended Serbian interests. They were the first guerillas to side
>with the Allies in Yugoslavia. Despite cruel tactics by the Ustashis exacted o
n
>the Serbs, fact is that Ustashis stayed primarily in Croatian territory and
>didn't fire a shot against western Allied forces.

The Chetnik fought as little as they could against the nazis so Churchill
abandoned them. Occasionally Mikhailovich collaborated with the Germans
against Tito. This was not appreciated in London.

>
>The British Military Command gave a "green-light" for Tito to slaughter 500,00
0
>Croat civilians, soldiers, and anyone remotely involved with the Ustashi. The
>British refused to accept the surrender of the Croat Army, when it was bound t
o
>do so by the Geneva Convention. This allowed the systematic slaughter of Croat
s
>by Tito's partisans. On May 16, 1945 near the Austro-Yugoslav border 50,000
>Croat soldiers were executed. Croatians who surrendered to the British in
>Austria were sent back, despite promises of them being sent to POW camps in
>Italy.

This is correct in part only. The criminal Ustashi army was handed over to
Tito but London did not know about any planned slaughter. The Geneva
Convention does not forbid the transfer of prisoners.

Tito preached that his partisans saved Yugoslavia from the scourge of
>the Ustashi, thus laying a guilt trip on Croats for years.

Why are you equating the people of Croatia with the Ustashi? Who did clean
out the Nazis from Yugoslavia but Tito? The Russians and the British helped
but the bulk of the work was done by Tito's army.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Prof. Agnew writes from his Prague hideaway:

> He also inadvertently cleared up a small mystery for me -- why the spicy
> paprika-flavored sausage that is _not_ Hungarian salami is always called
> in Czech language "cabajka" (that's got a "hachek" on the "c", so it's
> pronounced "csabajka").  Clearly, whatever the reason, in the longstanding
> friendly rivalry over whose sausage was better, Gyula's or Bekescsaba's,
> as far as the Czechs are concerned, the assimilated Slovaks of Csaba
> won hands down.  I should clarify that these sausages are called "cabajka"
> _even when on the label wrapper you can clearly see that they are in fact
> Gyulai kolbasz_!

This sort of thing is not unusual.  A certain kind of pickled cabbage,
similar to but milder than sauerkraut, is usually called "vecsesi
kaposzta" in Hungarian, whether or not it originated from the village
named Vecses.  Similarly, a kind of soft sheep's cheese is referred to
as "liptoi turo", irrespective of its place of origin.  Also, a rather
unremarkable kind of generic cheese manufactured in Hungary is called
"emmentali" even though the reputable burghers of Emmenthal would
probably deny they had anything to do with it.  It seems that at some
point the name becomes generic, and no longer reflects the place where
the food in question was manufactured.

Sometimes, there are even stranger forces at work.  For example, there
is the concoction that Hungarians call a "French salad".  In France is
called a "Russian salad", but if you wanted to order it in a Moscow
restaurant you would have to ask for "Czech salad".  It would be
perfectly reasonable for the Czechs to close the circle by calling the
thing a "Hungarian salad".  Perhaps Prof. Agnew, our resident expert on
Prague delicacies, can shed some light on the matter.

-----
Gabor Fencsik