() wrote:

>Both of them adapted the language of their neighbors at some time in their his
tory.

Hey, Joe, congratulations! This beats the crap out of the Illyrian
theory of an eminent student from a not so eminent university!

Them Illyrians  must've done a hell of an adaptation of their Magyar
neighbors' language to come up in the end with... the Romanian
language! 

Boy! Since I've been partaking into the wisdom of the s.c.r., not only
have I found out that my ancestors came from Illyria, but that I also
speak a dialect of the Magyar language! 

Thank you, brother!

Dorin Taranul

******************************************************************************
 writes:
many people are depressed, or go through periodic depressions for a multitude
of reasons.  but why some step over the point_of_no_return threshold? and why
so many more in hungary?  that's what's really puzzling!?...
     
einstein (and maybe chomsky) argued the point that language and mentality are
related. (it also makes sense to a layman like me).
     
could it be that excessive melancholic nuances in the linguistic patterns
could (more easily) shape the thought processes towards such a final
resolution?
     
i am obvioulsy speculating since i lack a basic knowledge of finno-ugric
languages.   -cristian     

**************************************************************************
 writes:
yes. but this is the symptom and not the cause. pessimism/neurosis is a trait
found in many people.  why would hungarians have a higher dosage of pessimism
as a people (or nation) than others?  
     
and if they don't, we must consider the possibility that there are
significantly less effective treatment/coping methods offered by
counselors/psychologists to suicidal-prone individuals. and that hungary,
estonia, and finland share this common problem. and, if so, why?
     
could we point out to the language_mentality link?
-cristian  

*************************************************************************
 writes:    
>     and if they don't, we must consider the possibility that there are 
>     significantly less effective treatment/coping methods offered by 
>     counselors/psychologists to suicidal-prone individuals.

T. Kocsis >
As we know psychology and psychiatry was considered bourgeois remnants by the
marxist. It means it was not the favoured science by the communists, which in
case of CCCP meant execution under Mr. Stalin. Hungarians don't go to
psychiatrist with their problem because they don't know that such thing exists
or they don't trust in them, because there is not enough qualified p. around,
because it costs money, and because so many neurotic are around it is
considered the normal. :) :) :)

**************************************************************************
     >T. Kocsis > wrote:     
     >Hungarians don't go to psychiatrist with their problem because
     >they don't know that such thing exists or they don't trust in them,
     >because there is not enough qualified p. around, because it costs
     >money, and because so many neurotic are around it is considered
     >the normal. :) :) :)

: Thu Aug 31  1995, wrote:     
yes. i was in bucharest not long ago this summer and felt the tremendous
day_to_day stress a lot (most) people are subjected to. and i'm sure the
situation is more or less similar in most other former eastern block countries
as well.  hey, i would say with 
confidence that they are worse off than their counterparts living in budapest.
     
and then, the question still remains as puzzling as before:  why hungary has a
much higher suicide rate than all the other former eastern block countries
given (more or less) similar (or worse) living conditions? 
     
     >>could we point out to the language_mentality link ?
     
     >I don't believe in it. There are similar agglutanating languages like
     >Hungarian even in the IE-group but those guys are not big suiciders.
     
well, first of all, the fact that hungary, estonia, and finland, countries
linked by common ethnicity and origins (more or less) share the top places in
suicide rates, is quite a hell of a coincidence.
     
compare this to the suicide rates in latin-speaking countries such as spain,
italy, france, romania - i do not have the exact statistics, but i think it is
much lower.  or even to germanic countries as well.
     
in lack of any other explanations, maybe this fact should not be totally
discounted.
     
then again, after i thought about it for a while, maybe the explanation is
more complex than that.  maybe there is not a single cause we can point to,
but a multitude of causes which, TOGETHER, can provide a more accurate
explanation for it...??...

***************************************************************************
Laszlo Horvath >: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 wrote:
No one devided the suicide rate into age groups. If the younger generation is
higher I can sympathize with them. All this freedom and no goal, no hope. This
seems to be the same here too. I also would not be supprized if the older
population of Hungary couldn't coop with the changes. Unemployment, inflation.
Only the strong will survive, and will not spare the weak.

**************************************************************************

Hi Christian. 
I somewhat shared your opinion that there appeared to be some connection
between language/culture and Hungary's suicidal "achievment" but the
information below seems to put an added clinker to the formula. I culled the
info from our local newspapers.

Recent statistics released by UNICEF say that 13.5 in 100,000 Canadians
between the ages of 15 and 19 -- or 253 accross the entire population --
killed themselves in 1991. Only New Zealand with 15.7 suicides per 100,000 and
Finland with 15, were higher. The Canadian figure topped that of the US where
11.1 teens per 100,000 take their own lives.

University of Toronto prof., Dr Diane Sax, who reported the stats at a medical
conference said the number of total teen deaths in Canada is also higher than
in most countries. About 100 of every 100,000 teens die before their 20th
birthday. The vast majority of deaths are car accidents and suicides.

Denise Avard, executive director of the Canadian Institute of Child Health
said the number of teen suicides in Canada has been increasing since 1960 when 
only 5.3 per 100,000 teens killed themselves. Young men account for a majority
of the suicides, adding that Statistics Canada indicates they are six times
more likely than their female counterparts to kill themselves.

Insofar as teen suicides are concerned, Hungary doesn't seem to be in the
running. A teenager is one whose life is in front of him, whereas, those who
are older have a past to some extent. It would seem to me an extreme paradox
that those with a long future before them, cut it short. Why? For two years
running the UN has declared Canada the best place in which to live -- yet our
youth kill themselves. 

There is nothing to compare with Hungary -- no cultural connection beyond a
tiny immigrant community. These are the complexities of human beings. And
compared to living conditions in Romania, Canada is paradise, yet a far
greater proportion of Canadian youth thinks otherwise.

So perhaps the overall suicide rate of Hungary will drop in light of the fact
that a higher proportion of Hungarian youth seem imbued with a degree of
personal optimism.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

24 hours have passed, and it's still rUmania.

I wish they'd get out of here and go home to SCR.

Tom Angi

In article >,  (Tom
 Angi) writes:
>24 hours have passed, and it's still rUmania.
>
>I wish they'd get out of here and go home to SCR.
>
>Tom Angi

Angi, why the heck did you get a wife if she's not even reminding
you to take that daily pill? Oh right, probably just to get that
damn citizenship...

A Romanian on SCM

consumer prices: +29.2 %

Interesting. I typed this in, but can not see in my newsreader...

RE:

Are you the Mihai Dima of SCM?
If you're so frustrated, why not check out the "Bikini of the Day" as (H)Adrian
says to do. (It's more fun than spelling "RUMANIA", but of course, you may not
be interested in pretty girls.)
This thread is quite amusing.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

My wife doesn't think your comment is amusing.

If this Mihai Dima is in SCR, he can stay there.  I don't bother them, I wish
they'd stay out of SCM.

And I don't like your condescending attitude either.

Are you promoting pornography on the net?

How old are these girls?  Do you know how old I am?

In article >,
Dorin Taranul > wrote:
>
>Them Illyrians  must've done a hell of an adaptation of their Magyar
>neighbors' language to come up in the end with... the Romanian
>language! 

You don't get it, Dorin, do you?  I was talking about your ancestors'
neighbors back in the good old Balkan days.  You know, south of the
Danube.

Joe

In article >,
Matthew Peter Muresan  > wrote:
>
>Uh-oh, I'm afraid you miss his point here.  He denies the relationship
>between the Roman colonisation at 101-106 AD, and the name "Romania", in
>first place!  In other words, he denies the continuity of the Romanian
>people.

Uh-huh!  Now you're getting it.  It's amazing!

  What he's trying to say probably is that at some point everyone
>died in what is now Romania, then the Huns came and found nobody there. 

This idiocy is what you guys are trying to put into our mouth.
You don't find this kind of BS in any Hungarian history book.  But why
don't you ask Liviu Iordache about that continuity?  Besides, what new
can be said about it that wasn't already covered umpteen times before?
Let's just agree to disagree.

Panonescu
(a Great Romanian)

In article > Fkemeny, 
writes:
>Dear fellow Hungarians,
>
>I need a few economic facts about Hungary.
>
>I would like to know what the current inflation rate in Hungary is these
>days.
>What are the interest rates the banks are paying on deposits in Forints?
>And what about on deposits in Dollars? Can capital be moved freely in and
>out of the country?
>
> If someone took a couple of minutes to answer, it would be greatly
>appreciated.

You may find these indicators on the last page of The Economist.
Sorry I store the newest copies at home so you'll have to content
with data from a copy from May:

consumer prices:																 +29.2 %
interest rates (short term % p. a.)		  	35.75

the ansver to the last two questions are: yes, yes.

Tamas

In >  (5 ) writes:

>2. Both my father, sixty something years ago, and my son, just a few years ago
,
>were registred in their birth certificates as "Matei", although the parents 
>wanted them to be called "Matyas" (I was somewhat luckier). The claim was that
 
>there is no such name in Romanian as "Matyas". But gentemen we are not 
>Romanians!

At least, you must understand why so many Romanians in pre-1918
Transylvania had to give Latin names to their children :-)

Of course, this is no excuse for the abuses in post-1918 Transylvania.
And it's worth remembering that these abuses continued even during the
1940-1944 period, just the nationality of the victims was different.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

 () wrote:


>You don't get it, Dorin, do you?  I was talking about your ancestors'
>neighbors back in the good old Balkan days.  You know, south of the
>Danube.

Sorry! Never mind! 

I thought you were talking about my ancestors' neighbors back in the
good old Indian days. You know, south of the Himalayas. 

Ou sont les chevaux d'antant!

Dorin Taranul

In article > Teodor A. Lungu,
 writes:
>"You could ask Budapest [the Hungarian Government] for informations to confirm
e
>what President Iliescu said, that the Hungarian Diaspora in the USA supported
>all Hungarian governments since Kadar, after he [Kadar] launched the slogan
>"who is not against us is with us".

No, such thing did not happened. The Kadar regime however was very
succesful to initiate quarrels among different groups of emigrants
and practically prevented that the emigration as a whole could oppose
the communist government abroad. The Hungarian emigration is still
quite divided.
The regime tried to use the diapora for their purpose. The Internatio-
nal Federation of Hungarians (???) (Magyarok Vilagszovetsege) was
such a political tool in the hand of Kadar. This organization was finan-
cially supported by the communists but they failed to build it into
an effectively working organisation. The few emigrant politicians and
personalities who they managed to buy was not capable to unite the
Hungarians under one roof. 

Tamas

unsubs soc-culture-magyar

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In >  (5 ) writes:
|> 
|> >2. Both my father, sixty something years ago, and my son, just a few years 
ago,
|> >were registred in their birth certificates as "Matei", although the parents
 
|> >wanted them to be called "Matyas" (I was somewhat luckier). The claim was t
hat 
|> >there is no such name in Romanian as "Matyas". But gentemen we are not 
|> >Romanians!
|> 
|> At least, you must understand why so many Romanians in pre-1918
|> Transylvania had to give Latin names to their children :-)
|> 
|> Of course, this is no excuse for the abuses in post-1918 Transylvania.
|> And it's worth remembering that these abuses continued even during the
|> 1940-1944 period, just the nationality of the victims was different.

The point is that the practice is still going on. Besides, a lot of Hungarian
peasants in Transylvania voluntarily "Romanized" before WWI and this is where
most of the Hungarian-sounding names come from, such as Sabau, Covaci, Suteu, 
Astalos,... , while I the effect of claimed "Magyarization" between 1940-1944
is not that visible.

Matyas
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My Hungarian Friend will stay New York about 2 month.

Is there any possibility that he can get Hungarian News Paper
or German Magazine "Der Spiegel" in New York?

If you know something, please write me directory to:



Thank you in advance.

Sayuri Oshima

In article > , 
writes:
> My grandfather
>was an ethnic german and had to flee from the atrocities when the
>"civilized followers of the culture of Rome" took over Transsylvania.

Making things more complicated: my grandmother's family was Ro-
manian nevertheless they moved to Budapest after WWI.

Tamas

In article >,
Tom Angi > wrote:
>RE:
>
>Are you the Mihai Dima of SCM?
>If you're so frustrated, why not check out the "Bikini of the Day" as (H)Adria
n
>says to do. (It's more fun than spelling "RUMANIA", but of course, you may not
>be interested in pretty girls.)
>This thread is quite amusing.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>My wife doesn't think your comment is amusing.

So why is that my problem? Her feelings are chosen by her. I can't help it if
she's not pretty.

>If this Mihai Dima is in SCR, he can stay there.  I don't bother them, I wish

Dima's off the net, thank Heaven. He ventured into SCM a few times.

>they'd stay out of SCM.

Why? I kinda like H(A)drian's and Cris Tomescu's posts, also Dan Pop's. Mucho
more intelligent than vous.

>And I don't like your condescending attitude either.

So kill me. That's OK, I don't like you either.

>Are you promoting pornography on the net?

Not that I know of. Penthouse magazine can be obtained at the local 7-11. I
haven't seen a naked girl on the "Bikini of the Day", although I admit not
looking into it very much. (Adrian, you old dog...)

>How old are these girls?  Do you know how old I am?
     |                            |
 I don't know.              Why should I care?

Gabor

Tamas Kocsis writes to Frank Kemeny:
>>You may find these indicators on the last page of The Economist.
Sorry I store the newest copies at home so you'll have to content
with data from a copy from May:

consumer prices:						
		+29.2 %							 
interest rates (short term % p. a.)		  	35.75

the ansver to the last two questions are: yes, yes.

Tamas<<



Tamas,

Thanks for the info. Never figured inflation would be that high in
Hungary.

A friend of mine will spend months, possibly over a year, in
Eastern/Central
Europe. She intends to keep the money she'll need for the trip in a bank
account, preferably in Hungary.  If I understand this right, foreigners
and
citizens are allowed to have accounts in dollars there. However, I am
still
not sure what the interest rates are on dollar-deposits would be.

I really hate to burden you or anyone else with these questions. What I
need,
I guess, is an information source (probably a web site?or
E-journal?banks?)
in Hungary or elsewhere in Europe that will keep up with changes. Anyone
happen to know any of those? Perhaps the E-mail address for the Hungarian
Chamber of Commerce?

Thanks bunches,

Frank

Here comes the Tomi's proze:
 ----------------------------------------
 Gee, Meester, if you'd have read the thread, you might have been able to
 pick up on my humour (or is it humor), but I realize that sick Rumanian
 minds like yours are incapable of grasping the simplist humour.

 This is not Rumania, buster.  If I want to spell Rumania "Rumania",
there's
 not one damn thing you can do about it!
 
 Actually, I think Vlachia is a much better way to spell it, or, even better,

                     OLAJORSZAG

 RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA
RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA
 
 ruMANIA ruMANIA
 
 What are you going to do about bub?

Tom Angi
> ----------------------------------------------
 Is this the best that a Rumanian can post?  I'm so glad that you can't
 get most favored nation trade status on a permanent basis.  Are you
guys
 too busy rewriting history to fit your needs?  Or are you too busy
writing
 stupid posts to e-mail the President.
 
 What are you going to do, Olaj?
Tom Angi
 ----------------------------------------------
 
 Hey, bud, the messages were sent with the complete text of the
message
 I was replying to.  The were sent via  (e-mail)
 
 It seems as if the top parts didn't make it--or you can't see the humor
 in my misspellings a--hole.
 
 No matter how nasty or how condescending you try to sound with me,
I'll
 just outdo you.
 
 Some of us don't like to read you long messages that say absolutely
 nothing.
Tom Angi
> ---------------------------------------------------
 This time there's no war, so the rUmanians can't join the winning side at
 the last minute to gain territory.  What are they doing here?  Are they
 trying to move their border further west?
 
 Haven't they already stolen enough territory?
 
 They're not going to get anymore.  Why don't they just stay home and
 manufacture their history in peace.
 
 Tom Angi

------------------------------------
24 hours have passed, and it's still rUmania.
 
 I wish they'd get out of here and go home to SCR.
 
 Tom Angi
------------------------------------
and to a fellow Hungarian he concluded :
------------------------------------
 
 My wife doesn't think your comment is amusing.
 
 If this Mihai Dima is in SCR, he can stay there.  I don't bother them, I
wish
 they'd stay out of SCM.
 
 And I don't like your condescending attitude either.
 
 Are you promoting pornography on the net?
 
 How old are these girls?  Do you know how old I am?
> ----------------------------------------------------

It looks like the famous Vienna proctologist, Dr, Frankenwiener has
not been very diligent with his treatment of this patient.  His woden
suppository must have been too long and exercised too much pressure on
the fecal matter that penetrated way high up into the rather small cerebral
cavity.  I guess, Dr. Frankenwiener was not as delicate with his
instrument.  He did make some progress for a while with "Panonescu"
though.
Oh, well, can't blame him though.  The patient was probably going
through a seizure provoked by hearing the word : ROMANIA.

Reporting for the "Olajocybernet" ,

HAdrian

In article > Andras Nagy,
 writes:
>probably and we are all going to be "displaced" netters, like my father
> was a "displaced person" from Transylvania.

It is really funny. My mother was born over there. My sister's
husband was born overthere. My father's mother was born over-
there.

Tamas

In article >  (Alexander Bossy) writes:
>From:  (Alexander Bossy)
>Subject: Re: Rumanian vs. Romanian ( was: Re: Re- SCM- RE- Flag ban law p
>Date: 28 Sep 1995 19:42:03 -0400

>Janos Szamosfalvi ) wrote:

>: An almost verbatim quote from Webster's New World Dictionary 
>: of the American Language:

>: Rumania  [...]  same as Romania  - Rumanian adj., n. 

>: I omitted the pronunciation guide (I put "[...]" there) and the center
>: dots showing syllabification.

>: My only comment is that while Rumanians have the power to call themselves 
>: anything they wish, I don't think they can change American English, even 
>: if it's just a couple of entries.  

>        Actually, as an American, let me assure you that on TV 
>news programs (including CNN), and in the major print media, including 
>such giants as The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, Romania is 
>spelled ROmania.  It isn't a question of CHANGING American English.  
>ROmania IS American English.

It seems that "Roumania" was the usual form before World War I; then "Rumania" 
in the postwar period, and "Romania" only in the past 30 years or so.  My 
pronunciation of the word is as "Roomania," though.

Paul Gifford

> From: 
 
> Subject: Re: Are the rumanians trying to...
 
> Organization: Eotvos University, Budapest, Hungary
 
 
> It seems to me that everyone forgot that not only hungarians and
> rumanians live(d) in Transsylvania (Siebenbu:rgen).

Nein, wir haben nicht vergessen, mein Herr.  Ihren Brudern aus Amerika
und Hungarien haben vergessen.  Die Saxen  haben sehr viel gemacht in
Siebenbuergen und keine Rumanien haben dass nicht gesagt.


> My grandfather
> was an ethnic german and had to flee from the atrocities when the
> "civilized followers of the culture of Rome" took over Transsylvania.

Sie haben zu viele Gesichte gelessen in Budapest.
Sie muessen nach Berlin gehen wo kann man mehr lessen !

> The only Romans the Vlach sheperds seem to be following are Caligula
> and Heliogabalus (Elagabal). Nero was probably too civilized.

Igen ! Heil Cezar !

> 
>         Tschuess,

Servus !

>                                         gff

HAdrian  - great great ... great son of Caligula

In article >,  (Tom
 Angi) writes:
>24 hours have passed, and it's still rUmania.
>
>I wish they'd get out of here and go home to SCR.
>
>Tom Angi

Angi, why the heck did you get a wife if she's not even reminding
you to take that daily pill? Oh right, probably just to get that
damn citizenship...

A Romanian on SCM

Dear Colleagues,

This morning (Oct.2) the NY Times published a 300 word editorial on the
dictatorial practices of Iliescu (and Slovak, Albanian, and Czech abuses of
the free press). Some of their sentences are almost identical to our news
releases. The editorial concludes with: "Mr. Iliescu and his
colleagues...deserve no such benefits when they treat their citizens and the
press as dictators do."
        This is a major victory for the cause of human and cultural rights in
Central Europe and since you helped in achieving it, I wanted you to know
about it.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

RE:

Why? I kinda like H(A)drian's and Cris Tomescu's posts, also Dan Pop's. Mucho
more
>And I don't like your condescending attitude either.

So kill me. That's OK, I don't like you either.

>Are you promoting pornography on the net?

Not that I know of. Penthouse magazine can be obtained at the local 7-11. I
haven't seen a naked girl on the "Bikini of the Day", although I admit not
looking into it very much. (Adrian, you old dog...)

>How old are these girls?  Do you know how old I am?
     |                            |
 I don't know.              Why should I care?

Gabor

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

Get a life.  Some of us don't have to read pornography.

So, it's okay to kill you?

In article >,
Tom Angi > wrote:

>Get a life.  Some of us don't have to read pornography.
   |                         |
  OK.                And who may those "some of us" be? (If you want me to
                     believe you've never read a "girlie mag", well, maybe it's
                     you who should get a life. My Dad reads them, he's almost
                     70, the dirty old man. I also like Pamela Anderson's body,
                     shame on me.)

>So, it's okay to kill you?

Sure. Send in the Ohio militia (judging by your posts, I figure you must be
associated with them). I'd be honored.

Gabor

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unsubs soc-culture-magyar

RE:

   From:  (Constantin Donea) On: 10/02/95  10:22
Subject: SCM: Re: It's still rUmania
Reply-To: 

In article >,  (Tom
:
>24 hours have passed, and it's still rUmania.
>
>I wish they'd get out of here and go home to SCR.
>
>Tom Angi

Angi, why the heck did you get a wife if she's not even reminding
you to take that daily pill? Oh right, probably just to get that
damn citizenship...

A Romanian on SCM
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

What's wrong with SCR, Donea?  Is it too boring for you.  Why don't you just
get out of here?

It takes a rUmanian to make cracks about someone's wife.

BTW, our citizenship is not "damned."  We were both born here in the USA.

Go home.  Stay out of here.  You already got too much of our land.

A 100% Magyar (and have documents dating back to the Reformation 
to prove it.)

Here is some more of his proze (sic)

It looks like the famous Vienna proctologist, Dr, Frankenwiener has
not been very diligent with his treatment of this patient.  His woden
suppository must have been too long and exercised too much pressure on
the fecal matter that penetrated way high up into the rather small cerebral
cavity.  I guess, Dr. Frankenwiener was not as delicate with his
instrument.  He did make some progress for a while with "Panonescu"
though.
Oh, well, can't blame him though.  The patient was probably going
through a seizure provoked by hearing the word : ROMANIA.

Reporting for the "Olajocybernet" ,

HAdrian
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isn't this just great folks?  Is this why they have to hang out in SCM?
Their own people won't put up with them.

This guy's going to have cardiac arrest when he hears AUTONOMY, HUMAN
RIGHTS, BILINGUALISM, MAGYAR TV AND RADIO BROADCASTS.

Why oh why do they hang out on Magyar teritory?

Tell him to go home.

 wrote:
: In article >,
: Dorin Taranul > wrote:
: >
: >Them Illyrians  must've done a hell of an adaptation of their Magyar
: >neighbors' language to come up in the end with... the Romanian
: >language! 

: You don't get it, Dorin, do you?  I was talking about your ancestors'
: neighbors back in the good old Balkan days.  You know, south of the
: Danube.

	Yup, the Slavs, Albanians and Greeks, all well-known Latin 
speakers.  And, by the by, Joe, I do know that my Greek ancestors 
continued to speak Greek north of the Danube till the late 1700's, when they 
switched to French.  But then, the peasants, as the authentic carriers of 
the culture must of switched to French centuries earlier, giving them 
time to develop a new language.  Though how they came up with Latin-like 
declentions from French I'll never know.

	Alexander

In article >,  (Andras Nagy) w
rites:
> Tom Angi ) wrote:
> : This time there's no war, so the rUmanians can't join the winning side at
> : the last minute to gain territory.  What are they doing here?  Are they
> : trying to move their border further west?
> : Haven't they already stolen enough territory?
> : They're not going to get anymore.  Why don't they just stay home and
> : manufacture their history in peace.
> : Tom Angi
>  probably and we are all going to be "displaced" netters, like my father
>  was a "displaced person" from Transylvania.
>  Cheers 
>  Andras

It seems to me that everyone forgot that not only hungarians and
rumanians live(d) in Transsylvania (Siebenbu:rgen). My grandfather
was an ethnic german and had to flee from the atrocities when the
"civilized followers of the culture of Rome" took over Transsylvania.
The only Romans the Vlach sheperds seem to be following are Caligula
and Heliogabalus (Elagabal). Nero was probably too civilized.

	Tschuess,
					gff