On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:41:14 -0400, Johanna Granville
> wrote:

>Hello. I'm going to Budapest for the first time.
[...]

Johanna, I followed the advice given to you by one of us and checked
out the www.hungary.com Web page. One thing leading to another, as
they usually do on the Internet.....

The following is SUPERB and will give you insights that are not
available in the average travel guide. Enjoy.

http://www.idg.hu/internetto/stb/bpkalauz/

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

In article >, 
(Andrew Rszsa) writes:

>There you go again, Sam! When are you going to pick on someone your
>own size? :-)

Bandi, I was trying to be kinder and gentler with him. I feel his pain.

>
>BTW (Mr. Albu, are you reading this?), I offer discounts to
>co-nationals....

Trolling for business? America -- what a country!
Sam Stowe
>
>Bandi
>
>



"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

_JELIKO wrote:
>
> A continuation of an old thread.
>
> While flying around, I had a chance to check up on this theme, which eneded
> up sort of unresolved during the last round.
>
> One of the issues in comparisson with the west related to the
> Encyclopedists. Well, it is true that the French were ahead, but have any
> of you read their texts. The one on Hungary is particularly interesting
> because it is rather confused and that section was written by Jaucourt who
> was never even close to Hungary or any other part of Eastern Europe.
>
> Some examples: "the Bulgars, the Hungarians, and the Wallachians were
> neighbors in Asia as they are in Europe." "The language of Hungary is a
> dialect of Slavic."
>
> At least the Hungarian encyclopedia from 1699 is more factual in its
> description of France.
>
> There is a recent publication from good old Boston College by Prof Larry
> Wolff titled "Inventing Eastern Europe." It should be a required  reading
> for those who are deluded by the superiority of any thought processes.
> Yes, there was some backwardness in the area after the Turkish expolsion,
> but the extant western descriptions are not really "accurate". Please
> remeber that this was the time when in several western countries there was
> also significant backwardness both economically and culturally. In Scotland
> and Ireland the English were keeping miners and peasants perhaps even more
> oppressed than was the case for the peasants in Hungary. No surprise that
> extensive emmigration took place to the colonies. The rebuilding of Hungary
> after the Turkish occupation and the more than a century of warfare was an
> enermous task, which was not helped by the Habsburgh exploitation. In spite
> of thatand almost surprisingly there was also cultural development. It
> again should not be a surprise that it was focused on Transylvania, which
> was less hurt by the Turkish repulsion wars. As I have stated before the
> Protestanism of Eastern Hungary was also a factor in the events. The
> reformed chirches used Hungarian as the language of service and that by
> itself was an accelerator for the improvements, because those churches
> maintained contact with western reformed church dominated countries on a
> much broader basis than that of the RC (hierarchy only) with Rome via
> Vienna. If anything the Habsburgh domination in the XVIII century created a
> more dismal situation than that which existed in the XVII century. The more
> I look into it the more I am convinced that if Rakoczi won, the economic
> and cultural development of the country would have been better.
>
> Now, I may be again accused of preaching Hungarocentric history, but those
> who feel that way should look into the extant literature from those times.
> I do not feel that Hungarian culture is superior to any other, but I do not
> suffer from an inferiority complex either, except perhaps in regard to the
> sanity of most of our politicos, which feeling about them extends to even
> today. It does not hurt either to reread the Zrinyi's "Torok afium ellen
> valo orvossag" it is an advise that could have been heeded even in later
> times.
>
> Regards,Jeliko


-------------------------

EXCELLENT you just hit the nail in the head.
I prepare adding to this. If this group is what it calls itself then
we shall add to this posting on regular bases. Lets see what is kept
under silence by the historiographers, Western and Hungarian.

1.      The first thing the of the Habsburghs was to prohibit the Protestants
to go to study in the West mainly in Holland.

.
.
.
.

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Why is it that whenever I cast my jewels I only get derisory comments?
What
>am I doing wrong?
>
>Joe Szalai

It's a matter of style. I thought you'd be a little more sensitive to that
than you have been.
Sam Stowe

"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

>Joe and Sam, you're not doing anything wrong.

<Sznip rest of George's critique of Eva>

Uh, George, she was defending me. And Joe's just trying to work in snide
sexual innuendoes in his posts because it's the last week of the month and
he hasn't hit his quota yet. I realize you're still angry with Eva, but
insinuating that she's a Stalinist unable to function in an open society
is below the belt. Cut her some slack, man. We already have a feast of
horrors available on the list. We don't need two of our most upstanding,
decent members at each others' throats.
Sam Stowe

"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

Re Hungarian customs you should know about--here's a "minor" one, but it
might throw you--as it did me for a while.  It has to do with tipping in
restaurants.

I used to eat at a Chinese restaurant in Budapest (and you must do this,
if only to hear Chinese people talk in Hungarian).  Occasionally, when I
wanted to leave a tip and didn't have change, I asked the waiter, "Can you
change this?"  He always said, No.  I thought, the heck with you.  But
when I mentioned this to a Hungarian friend, she said, of course, they
aren't a bank.  They didn't see it as a means for your leaving a tip, you
asked them if they could make change and they said no.

I forget if she suggested an alternative when you need change to tip; I
just pass it on to you as a potentially confusing situation.  (And I
assume it can happen in Hungarian restaurants as well, since my friend
understood the situation so easily.)

Have a good time!

Burian

In article >, "
says...
>Mr. Szaszvari,
>
>If you are going to pretend to be formal, you ought to refer to Eva
>Balogh as Dr. Balogh, not Ms.
>
>Bandi

Ought I? Since Ms Balogh doesn't use the title *Dr* in her signature,
you can go and (very respectfully and formally, of course) jump in
the lake....otherwise, if there's something in the posting you'd like
to address, then please do so (it's okay, this is the realm of free
speech).  Cheer up, you sourpuss :-)

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Sorry, but a provocation is a provocation.
>
>Tell you what, Sam.  Someone should hire Cristo (I think that's the guys
>name) to build a 10 meter high catoptric wall along the Canadian-American
>border.  That way you'd like Canadians even more.  Such a wall around
>Hungary may not be a bad idea either.  It would soothe some of the more
>rabid xenophobic nationalists there.
>
>Joe Szalai

I like the Canadians just fine the way things are. We have thousands of
them living here in the Triangle area, working for Northern Telecom and
other Canadian firms. They make good North Carolinians. We don't need to
hire Crisco (he's that famous gay artist, right?) to build a wall.
Sam Stowe

"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

In article >,  writes:

>The Hungarian culture is part of and transcends in to the Western
>Civilization and, has no contradiction with its values. This is not true
>pf all cultures.

Over 400,000 Hungarian Jews rounded up and shipped to death camps or
simply murdered in situ in Hungary would probably disagree with you on
this one. If they weren't dead, that is.


> In one extreme the Serbs were never part of it others as
>the Germans have deliberately rejected it in the XIX-c.
>Modernism to
>which American cultural elite subscribes in a large proportion is also in

>revolt with the value structure of the Western Civilization. With my
>knowledge there is no other common value system of the western cultures
>but what we call Western Civilization. Thus I do not understand in what
>else one could transcend. Most of the cultural elite of North America
>could transcend in a chaos or as is fashionable to be called  an
>Experiment or series of experiments.

Bullshit trailing off into incoherence again. Modernism is almost
exclusively a European movement and has been a bit player, at best, in
American culture. Postmodernism has had more of an impact on American
intellectuals, but no further than deluding some university English
professors into believing that their discipline is a lot more important to
the society and culture than it really is.
Sam Stowe
>
>
>AA



"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"

Day Three


Thursday, 25 October 1956

Russian party leaders Mikoyan and Suslov arrived in Budapest and Ger=F6 was
replaced by K=E1d=E1r as Party Secretary. Unarmed demonstration in Parliamen=
t
Square fired on by Security Police and by Russian tanks. Hungarian army
units refused to shoot students and workers and joined revolution in large
numbers. K=E1d=E1r and Nagy appealed for end to violence, promising amnesty.
Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)



        Two days of disturbances on the streets of Budapest were not enough
to interrupt the tranquillity of Canada. News reports indicated that the
Hungarian government with the support of the Red Army of the Soviet Union
was  able to keep the situation under control. The Montreal Star(2)
headlined: "Deaths Soar As Hungary Riots Continue" but its editorial showed
continuing distrust and skepticism: "Long-time Communists are still in
control. The freedom resulting will be limited, but hopes have a new
perspective already." The Toronto Globe and Mail(3)  declared that [the]
Budapest Riots [were] Quelled, and for the West nothing left to do but
"...press home the propaganda advantages they have been given."  The
Canadian organization Mutual Co-operation League sent letters to the U.S.
Secretary of State J.F. Dulles and to L.B. Pearson,  Canada's Secretary of
State for External Affairs, warning them against being too optimistic about
the changes going on in the "red realms."  The authors claimed that the
communist collective leadership and not the revolutionaries still guided
events in Budapest. In their view little had changed east of Vienna. Tito
and Khruschev were directing things in Hungary.(4)  Neither did the
Canadian-Hungarian community had  faith in the new politicians and the
intellectuals of Hungary who attempted to steer their country towards
reform between 1953 and 1956.  The community was willing to support the
revolution provided the ruling elite was swept away. They had no faith in
Imre Nagy at this conjecture. On this point the cautious attitude of the
press and  the Hungarian community differed little. While Hungarians from
Hamilton presented a petition of protest to Senator W. Ross Macdonald with
the request that it be sent to the United Nations, Toronto's Hungarian
United Church held a special prayer service for the restoration of peace
and democracy in Hungary,(5) On that day,  October 25, the Prime Minister's
Office had received just one demand for action from a small local
association, the Toronto Hungarian Sport and Social Club, which  safely
could be  ignored.6  Ottawa was more interested in reaping the results of
the "thaw" and did not wish to upset  the trade agreements achieved in the
previous six months. The Canadian cabinet concluded on that day:  "Whatever
happened in Hungary at the moment should not affect Canadian action on the
[trade] agreement" [just concluded with Hungary].(7)

        The ministers were reacting to the presentation of Lester B.
Pearson, who reported to the cabinet that a provisional agreement had been
reached on the text of a trade agreement with Hungary. The treaty, which
was yet to be ratified, was to cover a period of three years during which
Hungary was to purchase 300,000 tons of wheat and, in turn,  establish a
commercial office in Canada. Pearson suggested that, in view of recent
developments in Hungary, it might be desirable to delay the signing of the
agreement for a few days. If the Russians were suddenly to re-impose full
control over the country, the present would not be the moment to take this
formal step.8  During the same day the Winnipeg Free Press9  commented that
Hungary had just been granted most-favoured-nation status. The paper also
quoted an unidentified Ottawa source: "A Canadian government trade official
noted that the new regimes being established in Poland and Hungary would
probably be anxious to provide more food and other necessities for the
average man in their countries. This could lead to increased purchases in
Canada of wheat and other commodities."

        The trade agreement was brought to a satisfactory conclusion one
day before the outbreak of the revolution. This happened although Hungary
needed no wheat (the grain was bought for re-export) and had very little
cash to pay for the transaction,  despite the anger of Canadian Catholics
over the imprisonment of Cardinal Mindszenty on trumped up charges by the
Hungarian Communist regime and the justified fear of Canadian officials of
Communist subversion. All these factors were overlooked in hope of a new
market for  Canadian wheat. Tomorrow could bring an end to the disturbances
in Hungary  or victory for the rebels. In either case, the sale appeared
secured. The deal had been negotiated with the representatives of the
communist government but, in case the government was  overthrown, the
recognition of a new regime could confirm the deal. Uncertainty, however,
was counterproductive to business. The revolution acquired a nuisance
value.




1 NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

2 25 October 1956.

3 Ibid.

4 Ibid.

5The Globe and Mail [Toronto], 26 October 1956.

6Telegram to the Prime Minister, NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 108, File H-17-1.

7Cabinet Conclusions, October 25, 1956, NAC, RG 2,  Vol. 5775,  Canada
Cabinet Conclusions, Top Secret, Vol.51: 3 August 1956-3 November 1956.

8 Ibid.

9 25 October 1956.



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

In article >,  says...
>In article >,  (George
>Szaszvari) writes:
>>Joe and Sam, you're not doing anything wrong.

>Uh, George, she was defending me. And Joe's just trying to work in snide
>sexual innuendoes in his posts because it's the last week of the month and
>he hasn't hit his quota yet. I realize you're still angry with Eva, but
>insinuating that she's a Stalinist unable to function in an open society
>is below the belt.

A Stalinist? Below the belt? Nope. All I'm *insinuating* is that Eva's
attitudes tally with a few other Hungarians of her generation that I
know. I'm not particularly angry with Eva...... anymore :-)

>        ...........Cut her some slack, man. We already have a feast of
>horrors available on the list. We don't need two of our most upstanding,
>decent members at each others' throats.
>Sam Stowe

Yeah, okay, Sam, man....since you put it so nicely.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

Dear Bandi,

At 07:01 PM 9/23/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Mr. Szaszvari,
>
>If you are going to pretend to be formal, you ought to refer to Eva
>Balogh as Dr. Balogh, not Ms.

        Thank you very much for writing, but I really don't care how Mr.
Szaszvari addresses me as long as he writes about me in a decent manner.
However, Mr. Szaszvari has an ugly, vindictive soul, and all his writings
concerning me are dripping with hatred and personal insults. Therefore, I
simply try to ignore Mr. Szaszvari as if he didn't exist.

        Eva Balogh

This message is for Mr. Zoltan Fekete:

Hello Mr. Fekete,

Recently my email adress was changed and I seem to have gotten knocked off the
Hungary list. I resubscribed and I thought I reconfirmed correctly.  However,
I got a notice telling me my 48-hour confirmation time expired.  Well, I think
I tried resubscribing, and nothing has happened.

I am very confused. Apparently NONE of my posting to the List have appeared on
it for the last few days.  *But* my messages are not even bounced back to me
informing me that they have not been accepted.

I am very confused and frustrated.  Mr. Soltesz and others were nice enough in
suggesting that I contact you or Hugh Agnew, but I do not have your personal
email adresses.

I hope this reaches you and you can enlighten me,
Thanks,
Mark Humphreys

Bandi:
Good Job!
Peter

At 09:27 PM 9/23/96 -0400, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>Just wanted to drop a line of thanks and appreciation to:
>
>Eva - re Potpourri & SZDSZ & the Coalition
>Peter - re 40 years ago 1 & 2 (Just one really stupid question; what is
"Ibid")?
>Jeliko - re 1700s
>
>Thanks to all for extending endless efforts to share - mostly thanks for
>educating me on all these topics!!!!

Thank you, Aniko, for thanking everyone.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  You graduated from the University of Waterloo and you have to ask what
"ibid" is?  Hmmmm!
------

ibidem

Abbr. ib., ibid.
In the same place. Used in footnotes and bibliographies to refer to the
book, chapter, article, or page cited just before.

At 04:32 AM 9/23/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:

>Joe and Sam, you're not doing anything wrong. Her public disengagements,
>or "deconstructions" [echoes of apparatchik speak ;-) ]   are simply
>admissions of her inability to argue her case, a public surrender. Ms
>Balogh often tries to put on a show of aloof arrogance, but it falls
>flat in an Open Society because she is so naive. Correct me if I'm
>wrong, but I understand that Ms Balogh's formative years were in largely
>wartime, and subsequently Stalinist, Hungary, which weren't noted free
>speech environments...many emigres of her generation have since adapted
>to living in an Open Society, but some haven't...has Ms Balogh?

I have to disagree with you here, George.  I don't think you can blame
Stalinism for the way Eva Balogh is today.  Certainly, one's formative years
are important but Eva's were half a century ago.  Times change and people
change with them.  Eva Balogh, like the rest of us, has changed.  But that
is neither good or bad.

I think the problem is one of "consciousness".  You either have it, or you
don't.  And it has nothing to do with Stalin, your education level, or your
grandmother.  Blaming Stalin, or anyone else for that matter, lets people
off the hook too easily.  People are the way they are because they choose to
be that way.  I think it's that simple.

My formative years were during the conservative, conformist, 50's, and yet
I'm neither of those.  Just the opposite, actually.  I rebelled against
those ideas and continue to do so today.  Others rebelled against those
constrictive attitudes but in a very self-serving way.  They only think
they're "liberated" but, alas, they're weighted down by the past because
they never really gave it up.  They just circled it and fooled themselves,
and others, unfortunately.

Joe Szalai

>From the News of the Batthyany Lajos Foundation:

*************

A KDNP parlamenti frakcioja hetfoi ulesen ugy dontott, hogy
taviratban tiltakozik az Egyesult Allamok budapesti nagykovetenel es
az amerikai kulugyminiszteriumnal a Washington Post szeptember 19-ei
szamaban megjelent Bosznia moge tekintve cimu iras egyes kitetelei
miatt. A cikkben Donald Blinken, az USA budapesti nagykovete es Alfred
Moses, a bukaresti amerikai nagykovet ugy fogalmazott, hogy a
Magyarorszag es Romania kozotti ezereves rivalizalas a
Kozep-Azsiabol erkezett magyarok betelepulesevel kezdodott. Az
iras szerint a magyar dominanciat vegul a trianoni bekeszerzodes
szuntette meg.

Isepy Tamas frakciovezeto tegnap felvetette: tiltakozni kell e sajatos
tortenelemszemlelet ellen, mert a vegen az alapszerzodes
kovetkezmenyekent betolakodoken meg sajat hazankat is elhagyhatjuk
(Magyar Hirlap: A KDNP... 4.o.).

**************

That is a wonderful example of the creation of a "general impression"
(as Eva Balogh means is) about Hungary. Sam Stowe (sorry for the "r")
should shy away as his achievement is compared to this one.
                                                            Sz. Zoli

Joe - At 01:00 PM 9/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>P.S.  You graduated from the University of Waterloo and you have to ask what
>"ibid" is?  Hmmmm!
>------
What can I say....???  (Old age setting in, memory going, monthly quota, not
that smart, too long away from academics)  Pick one - add a few!? (with my
blessings)>
>ibidem
>
>Abbr. ib., ibid.
>In the same place. Used in footnotes and bibliographies to refer to the
>book, chapter, article, or page cited just before.
Thanks Joe!
Aniko
>
>

At 02:03 PM 9/24/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>>From the News of the Batthyany Lajos Foundation:
>
>A cikkben Donald Blinken, az USA budapesti nagykovete es Alfred
>Moses, a bukaresti amerikai nagykovet ugy fogalmazott, hogy a
>Magyarorszag es Romania kozotti ezereves rivalizalas a
>Kozep-Azsiabol erkezett magyarok betelepulesevel kezdodott. Az
>iras szerint a magyar dominanciat vegul a trianoni bekeszerzodes
>szuntette meg.

        Well, Zoli, I also read the above, but I took the trouble to find
the original as it appeared in the Washington Post on September 19. Here is
the particular passage of the article written by Donald Blinken, the U.S.
ambassador to Budapest and Alfred Moses, the U.S. ambassador to Bucharest:

"Historic rivalry between <B>Hungary</B> and Romania dates back at least a
thousand years to the Magyar migrations from Central Asia. This led to
Hungarian domination of the Carpathian basin, including modern-day
Transylvania, now in Romania, which was part of Hungary until 1919, when the
Treaty of Trianon put an end to 300 years of Austro-Hungarian dominance in
the region."

        And surely this is historically inaccurate. There was certainly no
rivalry between Romanians and Hungarians in the ninth century and it is not
even sure where the Romanians were situated at this time. It is unfortunate
that ambassadors sent to different parts of the world know relatively little
about the history of the region they serve. Whether it is worth making a
huge issue of it, I am not sure. Perhaps a letter to the editor of the
Washington Post would do. I am not a regular reader of the *Washington Post*
and it is possible that someone already corrected the above. If not, it was
certainly a good undertaking from someone from the Hungarian Lobby.

        Eva Balogh

Someone complained that he/she can not understand my
sense of humour. Now, I show you what I mean when I
talk about humour (Sam had this piece):

> It's "intellectuals" not "entellecuels". The intellectual links between
> the Khmer Rouge and French postmodernism have been examined in detail by
> academic observers for well over a decade now.
Is it not a laugh what makes the sense of authority
for guys like Sam? One single magic word is enough
for him: "a-c-a-d-e-m-i-c" and he is already on his
tummy (hasraesik).

I just keep laughing about Sam's "academic observers".
They are obviously the same branch, as Victor Farias.
Some stupid and noisy guys occupy some areas of the
academics and after this anything they lie from their
chairs is supposed to be worshipped as "academic
observation". No Sam, not everybody is so stupid...

Another funny example when Sammy keeps farting more
and more about his personal hero, Szalasi.

> I asked you to provide us with examples of this "third way" you keep
> blathering about and suggested that it would probably boil down to Szalasi
> gussied up in the rhetoric of French poststructuralism.
And you see now, sir, why would I never talk to you
about Nemeth Laszlo or Bibo Istvan.
                                            Sz. Zoli

Sam had this one:
>
> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > writes:
>
> >What do you mean by 'acting on his National Socialist
> >sympathies'? These sympathies ended as early as in 1934.
> >(When the sympathies of Chamberlain and Daladier toward
> >Adolf Hitler just began.)
>
> This is simply not true. Heidegger's sympathies for National Socialism did
> not end in 1934.
Really? What do you mean under the expression "national socialism"
back, e.g. in 1930, a little bit later in 1934, or more later
during and after the war? I guess, the word has a long story of
different meanings. After 1956, for example, in Hungary Kadar
announced the plan of building socialism IN ACCORDANCE TO THE
NATIONAL SPECIFICS of Hungary, i.e. in a Hungarian way. It was
"our national way of building socialism". It is just a small piece
of food for your thinking...

As about Heidegger:

The fact is, that Heidegger discontinued his relationship with
the hitlerian way of building a new society in Germany in 1934.

> He was also peeved because they did not look to
> him specifically for intellectual guidance in implementing the new
> Sonderweg (Special Way) between Russian communism and American capitalism.
This comment reveals that Sam does not understand Heidegger and
the ontological way of thinking at all. That kind of stupid
statements have a right place in the book of Victor Farias. :-(

Heidegger's philosophy is not a political philosophy. He was an
ontologist. Ontology is about the understanding of being,
existence, your role in the world in a general terms, etc. It
is not an ideology, which can be instrumentalized in political
acting. Heidegger never wanted to give intellectuel guidance
to politicians. Never ever. He did not have any business in
something like that. The only thing he wanted was teaching. And
when he realized, as early as in 1934, that the Nazis pushed a
different agenda in his university, he resigned from his post
as Chancellor of the university.

> Heidegger remained a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party until the end
> of the war in 1945.
That is a thing, you anti-Heideggerians never forget to repeat
over and over again. Yes, he remained a member. But why? What
would have happened if he would have refused to pay the
membership fee? I tell you what would have happened:
He would have probably been
1. openly humiliated by the Nazi leadership;
2. forced to resign his teaching position at the university;
3. marked as enemy;
4. his family would have been in danger of losing jobs, etc.
(Heidegger himself put the emphasis on his family in his later
explanation of the question. He did not care too much about
his own personal fate.)

A terroristical political system has its plentyful ways to
punish dissenters. And we Hungarians, exactly know that! It is
to much easy to talk trash against other people living under
real dangers, if you who judge them from outside are living
all of your life in freedom, in a democratic country, without
any challenge of retorsion.

We know, what happened to people during Rakosi in Hungary, when
they stepped out of the Communist Party. We know how they lost
any chance of dignified survival whatsoever. Many of them ended
up in Recsk and their families in complete despair. Do you know,
what this single word means to Hungarians: Recsk? Do you have
the slightest idea? ... And it happened in Hungary.

Now, you answer this question: In which country was the level
of oppression against its citizens higher, in Germany during
Hitler or in Hungary during Rakosi?
                                                     Sz. Zoli

Sam:
> >It is worse than Victor Farias.     (Sz. Zoli)
> >
> And Farias did a pretty thorough job of dissecting old Marty, didn't he?
> You can't even get my last name right.
> Sam Stowe
>
I have always known that your pal is Victor Farias.
That's exactly why you don't have any chance to
get the whole picture.
                                         Sz. Zoli

Janos Kis is a philosopher and one of the founding fathers of SZDSZ.
Thus his political philosophy is based on "liberalism." The Hungarian
bishops published a "circular" for August 20--St. Stephen's Day which made
quite a stir. Janos Kis published a very interesting piece on comparing the
Church's attitude toward society to that of secular liberalism. I think it
is very interesting. It appeared in the Magyar Narancs. Those of you who can
handle Hungarian should definitely read it. If you don't get the electronic
edition of Magyar Narancs, please write to me. I will send the article on to
you. Sorry but I don't have enough time to translate it. Perhaps one day I
will summarize it for the non-Hungarian speakers.

        Eva Balogh

Oh, Zoli! You didn't follow my advice and apologize instead of
piling my garbage and garbage. I tried to get you off the hook by suggesting
that you just blame everything on your lack of English. But you don't listen.

        Eva Balogh

At 03:45 PM 9/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone complained that he/she can not understand my
>sense of humour. Now, I show you what I mean when I
>talk about humour (Sam had this piece):
>
>> It's "intellectuals" not "entellecuels". The intellectual links between
>> the Khmer Rouge and French postmodernism have been examined in detail by
>> academic observers for well over a decade now.
>Is it not a laugh what makes the sense of authority
>for guys like Sam? One single magic word is enough
>for him: "a-c-a-d-e-m-i-c" and he is already on his
>tummy (hasraesik).
>
>I just keep laughing about Sam's "academic observers".
>They are obviously the same branch, as Victor Farias.
>Some stupid and noisy guys occupy some areas of the
>academics and after this anything they lie from their
>chairs is supposed to be worshipped as "academic
>observation". No Sam, not everybody is so stupid...
>
>Another funny example when Sammy keeps farting more
>and more about his personal hero, Szalasi.
>
>> I asked you to provide us with examples of this "third way" you keep
>> blathering about and suggested that it would probably boil down to Szalasi
>> gussied up in the rhetoric of French poststructuralism.
>And you see now, sir, why would I never talk to you
>about Nemeth Laszlo or Bibo Istvan.
>                                            Sz. Zoli
>
>

The famous Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdos dies of a heart attack
in Warsaw a couple of days ago. He is considered to be one of the giants of
mathematics and his importance is shown by the fact that his obituary began
on the front page of today's New York Times. I made a copy of the article.
Anyone interested, please drop me a line. I will be glad to send it to you.

        Eva Balogh

Zoltan - At 04:08 PM 24/09/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone complained that he/she can not understand my
>sense of humour. Now, I show you what I mean when I
>talk about humour (Sam had this piece):

No one complained.  They were only suggesting that it is *you* who fails to
understand a sense of humour displayed by *another(s)*.  Furthermore, they
were suggesting that your lack of English comprehension might well be the
cause of it. Which btw is far from being an insult.  In fact it is a well
utilized comment that "one can only truly boast of being totally fluent in
another language, once one has become to fully comprehend that languages'
humour".

>> It's "intellectuals" not "entellecuels". The intellectual links between
>> the Khmer Rouge and French postmodernism have been examined in detail by
>> academic observers for well over a decade now.
>Is it not a laugh what makes the sense of authority
>for guys like Sam? One single magic word is enough
>for him: "a-c-a-d-e-m-i-c" and he is already on his
>tummy (hasraesik).
>
I am afraid, that the only person who without fail, keeps falling on his
tummy through his written words would be *guess who*? (Now of course, if you
really want to get *picky*, you can bring into this conversation a lack of
remembrance of Latin - no doubt that you will).

Regards,
Aniko.


>
>
>
>

Kedves Eva,

Legyel olyan jo es kuldj nekem egy copiat az Erdos Pal New York Times-ban
mejelent obituary-rol.

Kulonben, nagyszeruek voltak a Forum-ba kuldott cikkeid! Azt gondolom, hogy
a kutya ott van eltemetve, hogy sovinista'k. Nem tetszik az "urak"-nak
hogy a "gyengebb" nem egyik tagja magasabb szinvonalon all mint ok.

A cimem:    Marina E. Pflieger
                  9700 Ranger Road
                  Fairfax, VA. 22030-1919

Elore is nagyon koszonom!

Udv.
Marina

S. Stowe and A.Albu wrote:

>>The Hungarian culture is part of and transcends in to the Western
>>Civilization and, has no contradiction with its values. This is not true
>>pf all cultures.
>
>Over 400,000 Hungarian Jews rounded up and shipped to death camps or
>simply murdered in situ in Hungary would probably disagree with you on
>this one. If they weren't dead, that is.

Well the expression 'culture' has been used in almost any kind of context
here on this list. Would somebody minds explaining me what these guys
mean by 'culture'. To me culture means, folk dance, eating habbits, religion,
customs, etc. I understand that the politics and events can be related to
'culture', but I haven't got the ability of so abstract thinking that can
relate the Holocaust in Hungary to my definition of hungarian culture or
its relation to the 'Europian culture'.

J.Zs