Eva Durant > wrote:
>My memory could be failing me, but as far as I remember
>we had 9 golds in Tokio, and ever since I am involved
>with brits I can thoroughly annoy them by winning bets
>via Hungary producing more medals/points than the mighty ex-empire.
>However, I am fully aware that this doesn't mean enough
>effort to promote mass-sport activities, only prestige
>and propaganda investments - as everywhere else.
>However I don't think I dare to put my money down this year.

>
>
>>
>>         Sadly, sport (quality of) in Hungary seems to be a bit on the naff
>> side at the moment, at least compared with what sport was like before most
of
>> Hungary`s athletes left during/after 1956. Before `56 no one country could
>> touch the Hungarians in almost any sport you could care to mention.
>>
>>
>> Karcsi

Dear Eva:

Don't be afraid...bet your money!  My bet is on the hungarians this year,
judging at least by some of the strenght that is evident on the on-water
sports.  I dare to say, that they should shine again, judging by the team
at least in that category.

Dear Karcsi:

You might be surprised... but alot of the athletes whose results have
made hungary shine in recent olympics, are way too young to have left
during/before '56.  The coaches might have been exported for sure, but
there remains a strong body of potential medalists; at least from where I
am viewing.

Doug Hormann > wrote:
>John Czifra wrote:
>
>>I totally agree that Hungarian sports are on the near dead side. We won't be
as
>>dominating in swimming in the Olympics as we were 4 years ago. Egerszegi
>>Krisztina is not the "Kis Eger" anymore. She might have it. Darnyi Tamas is
>>retired. Kayak-Canoe is going to make or break the gold medal run for the
>>Hungarians this year because it's the only sport we almost total domination
in.
>>I watched the World Championships on Eurosport (in Hungary) this past summer
>>and it was very impressive.
>
>        I read recently where the Olympic Kayak-Canoe course is being
>prepared on the Ocoee River.  Reports are that the course will be, to put
>it mildly, challenging!  Not knowing much about kayaking I'm looking
>forward to seeing some good competition.  Who are the Magyar team members
>that I should be looking for?
>
>Regards,
>
>Doug Hormann


Dear Doug:  4 ur info (although, u might be sorry for asking... there is
an "entourage" of Magyar K&C members arriving for pre-olympic trainig,
but as far as I know, to Melbourne, not to Ocoee river - (I must add,
that my knowledge of FLA is so ltd,  that they could bet he one and same
location.  The team consists of over 30, so I will not attempt to bore
you.  The names you might be looking for during the Olympics could be
some, any or all of the following (pls keep in mind, that their trainig
and trial results could greatly change between now and then):
Gyulai Zsolt - Bartfai (or bartfali) Kristian - Antal Zoltan - Stonc(z?)
Botond -  Czigany Kinga - Meszaros Erika - Donusz Eva - Kolomics Gorgy -
Horvath Csaba - & Jakus Bela.

Pulai Imre (he'll be training in Africa along with Szabo Attilla, Hoffman
Erwin, Gaspar Boldizsar & Novak Ferenc).  All of the above are the
hopefulls at least, but, anything could happen between now and then.  For
sure, you ought to be looking for Pulai and Gyulai! - they are the top!
I would have a heart-attack for sure, if those two names did not appear
on the final olypmic list.

If you should desire the rest of the thirty names, Im sure u'll let me
know via this newsletter.

Have fun following the names,
An always avid K&C fan.

At 05:14 PM 1/20/96 -0500, Eva Balogh:

>I might also add that this kind of behavior seems to go hand in hand with
>other "progressive" thoughts. Chauvinism, antisemitism, xenophobia,
>anti-capitalism, homophobism, racism, intolerance in general, and, let me
>add, a total lack of understanding or appreciation of democratic government.
>All in all, the most admirable traits in human beings!
>
>Eva Balogh

I appreciated reading what Eva Balogh wrote except for two ideas in the
above paragraph.

Including 'anti-capitalism' and 'a total lack of understanding or
appreciation of democratic government' with major social ills is odd, to say
the least.

Capitalism is an exploitive economic system.  Amongst other things,
capitalism exploits male attitudes towards women, and on average, in Canada,
women earn 70 cents to every dollar that a man earns for doing the same or
similar job.

Capitalism is not anti-women per se.  But if one is committed to a society
free of exploitation and social ills, it seems strange to embrace capitalism
without criticism.  I suppose that in a future capitalist society it might
be possible for women to earn a dollar for every 70 cents that a man makes.
But I wouldn't see that as human progress.  Then again, if both men and
women were explotied equally, I wouldn't see that as human progress either.

As for 'a total lack of understanding or appreciation of democratic
government' all I can say is that the rich and well-to-do usually buy
election results.  During an election campaign I may be able to convince a
couple of people to vote a certain way.  On the other hand, huge and
powerful multi-nationals can, and do, make millions of dollars of donations
to pro-capitalist parties that end up buying millions of votes through
glossy campaign ads.  The problem is not a lack of appreciation of
democratic governments.  The problem is that most governments are not truly
democratic.

Joe Szalai

what about Sopron

whatever it is Hungary is good at swimming

Dear Colleagues!

The Hungarian Parliament is contemplating legistlation, which would open the
files of those persons (the "internal reactionaries") who were spied upon by
the III/III Department of the former Hungarian Secret Police, but WOULD NOT
open the III/I (information gathering), III/II (counter-intelligence), III/IV
(military intelligence) related files.

It seems to me that this legistlation should be extended to also apply to the
III/I, III/II and III/IV files. It was the III/I and III/II Departments,
who's job it was to spy on foreigners and on Hungarian emigrants. One of
their specific assignments was to plant discord among Hungarian groups and
thereby prevent our unified and therefore effective action. As they
infiltrated our organizations, spread lies and fueled personality conflicts,
they have done unrepearable damage, the effects of which still linger.
Because we were the ones who suffered the consequences of these activities,
it seems appropriate that we should request the broadening of this
legistlation.

In 1983, I was the subject of one such provocation: While searching (with
Imre Mecs) for the gravesite of Prime Minister Imre Nagy, I was attacked by
three plaincothes men, who refused to identify themself, while attempting to
drag me into a police station. I ended up in a hospital and following that,
for years I was not allowed into Hungary, not even for my Mother's funeral.
During the last five years, I have asked for my files from all Ministers of
the Interior, so that I might learn, who ordered this attack, but my request
was consistently denied, because these files were and still are secret.

Many of the III/I to III/IV operatives were also KGB officers. While I am not
advocating retribution, I do feel that the spiritual healing process does
require the opening of these files. Just as after WWII, the democratic
government of Germany, did not hide the attrocities of the SS and did not
attempt to cover up the crimes by saying, that "we all collaborated to some
degree, therefore let us forget everything", but opened up the SS files, so
should the AVH files be also opened.

If you agree with this, please send an e-mail (THIS WEEKEND!) either to Prime
Minister Gyula Horn ) or to the leader of
SZDSZ, the other  party in the governing coalition, Ivan Peto
).

I am leaving on a 4-week trip to Budapest-Bos-The Hague, so please forgive
me, if I do not reply to your letters for a month.

With best personal regards: Bela Liptak

Kedves Jano:

Just read your message, that u blanked the names.  I will attempt to
resend to your attention - might not work, never tried this method
before.  Email me if you don't get the names.

Udv.
Aniko


dunfords > wrote:
>Doug Hormann > wrote:
>>John Czifra wrote:
>>
>>>I totally agree that Hungarian sports are on the near dead side. We won't be
as
>>>dominating in swimming in the Olympics as we were 4 years ago. Egerszegi
>>>Krisztina is not the "Kis Eger" anymore. She might have it. Darnyi Tamas is
>>>retired. Kayak-Canoe is going to make or break the gold medal run for the
>>>Hungarians this year because it's the only sport we almost total domination
in.
>>>I watched the World Championships on Eurosport (in Hungary) this past summer
>>>and it was very impressive.
>>
>>        I read recently where the Olympic Kayak-Canoe course is being
>>prepared on the Ocoee River.  Reports are that the course will be, to put
>>it mildly, challenging!  Not knowing much about kayaking I'm looking
>>forward to seeing some good competition.  Who are the Magyar team members
>>that I should be looking for?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Doug Hormann

>
>Dear Doug:  4 ur info (although, u might be sorry for asking... there is
>an "entourage" of Magyar K&C members arriving for pre-olympic trainig,
>but as far as I know, to Melbourne, not to Ocoee river - (I must add,
>that my knowledge of FLA is so ltd,  that they could bet he one and same
>location.  The team consists of over 30, so I will not attempt to bore
>you.  The names you might be looking for during the Olympics could be
>some, any or all of the following (pls keep in mind, that their trainig
>and trial results could greatly change between now and then):
>Gyulai Zsolt - Bartfai (or bartfali) Kristian - Antal Zoltan - Stonc(z?)
>Botond -  Czigany Kinga - Meszaros Erika - Donusz Eva - Kolomics Gorgy -
>Horvath Csaba - & Jakus Bela.
>

>Pulai Imre (he'll be training in Africa along with Szabo Attilla, Hoffman
>Erwin, Gaspar Boldizsar & Novak Ferenc).  All of the above are the
>hopefulls at least, but, anything could happen between now and then.  For
>sure, you ought to be looking for Pulai and Gyulai! - they are the top!
>I would have a heart-attack for sure, if those two names did not appear
>on the final olypmic list.
>
>If you should desire the rest of the thirty names, Im sure u'll let me
>know via this newsletter.
>
>Have fun following the names,
>An always avid K&C fan.
>
>

To Janos Zsargo:

>I do not remember that anyone had any problem with your gender on the
Hungarian language *Forum*, Eva.

You must have a selective memory. A "gentleman" whose manners are notorious
in general referred to my sex organs (four-letter word), sunshine and
Florida; one 75-old "dalias legeny" called me "ven satrafa" or something
similar. I also remember: "kotlos tyuk"! When the 75-old called me "ven
satrafa" I no longer could stand it: I called him "ven trotty." That shut him
up for a while and at least I made one young man in Budapest happy. That
young man from Hungary wrote to me: "Eva, it was a terrible day today. Rainy,
cold, awful. I was waiting for the streetcar with several others and suddenly
I remembered `ven trotty.' I began laughing and I couldn't stop. People
looked at me if I were crazy."

Sometimes the anti-woman attitude is more subtle. Both Eva Durant and myself
were referred to by one well-meaning gentleman, I am sure, as "Evike," as if
we were little, stupid, five-year old kids. (By the way, it is difficult to
imagine a "ven satrafa" whose name is Evike!) I was glad to see that Eva
Durant answered with the salutation: Kedves ----ka! On this list, one proud
man, surely in his 20s, referred to me as "Evike," and "kicsikem." Well, I
would like to see men calling each other "kicsikem," or any other --ka's and
--ke's. How do they dare? What do they think? Surely, there is a culture in
Hungary which allows these men to behave this way.

>Of course they disagree with your opinions and sometimes
>use rude language, but they do the same with each other (like everybody
versus
>Voros Miklos or Olorin versus Lajcsi).

Of course, it is very difficult to prove, without any doubt, that my gender
has anything to do with their reaction, but there is a very strong suspicion
not just in my but in many other people's minds. The vehemence of their
reaction cannot be explained in any other way. The same thing can be uttered
by one of their fellow men and they don't call them "ven kakasok," or
something similar. As far as the discussion of Olorin and Lajcsi is
concerned: they made up in no time. Our "delceg vitez" felt so bad that he
attacked a fellow man that he immediately began courting him and tried to
explain away everything as a huge misunderstanding. Now, they are the best of
friends.

I might also add that this kind of behavior seems to go hand in hand with
other "progressive" thoughts. Chauvinism, antisemitism, xenophobia,
anti-capitalism, homophobism, racism, intolerance in general, and, let me
add, a total lack of understanding or appreciation of democratic government.
All in all, the most admirable traits in human beings!

Eva Balogh

At 09:39 AM 1/19/96 -0500, Eva Durant wrote:

>So we can't win. If we are clever and intelligent like men,
>than we lost our identity/feminity. If we are clever and
>intelligent in a not-man-like manner, than we are  wierd/bitchy.
>So as our brain is different, we shouldn't have a choice in what we
>do, we should concentrate on childrearing and domestic toil,
>that should sure stop our brain function soon in any compatitive
>way in the men's world...

You've summed up the situation accurately, Eva.  Historically, women have
been, and continue to be, seen as Madonnas (mother, care giver, etc.), or
whores.  And since both roles serve men, women are supposed to accept their
lot without question.

Joe Szalai

I always found the Hungarian word for wife to be very expressive of a
positive attitude toward women. Feleseg......means wife.....but also means
Halfness.
Half sounds pretty good to me.

>Re: quiet vacation spot in nothteast Hungary--how about the hotel and lake at
>Lillafured?  Or the Nemzeti Park north of Szilvasvarad?
>
>Udv.,
>Be'la
>
>I agree, Szilvasvarad is high on my list.

> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Feminism in Hungary ( 26 sor )
>
> So, should Hungarian women be humble because there are other places where
> women are worse off?  If your logic is accepted then Hungarians shouldn't
> complain about Hungarian minorities in Romania or Slovakia because they're
> still better off then Chechens or Kurds.
Who said be humble or not to complain? If my logic is accepted, all that
follows is that one must retain a sense of proportion, not to complain
about "ethnic cleansing" of Hungarian minorities in Romania or Slovakia,
or treat Hungarian men worse than they deserve (though if E1va Balogh
gets her sample of Hungarian gentlemanliness from FORUM it's small wonder
she comes away feeling the way she does).

> Better is not equal!  Feminism is about equality.  So, Andras -- which part
> of equality do you not understand?
Who said better was equal? You must be truly eager to pick a fight on
this matter. To lend you a hand, here's a statement you must violently
disagree with: equal pay for equal work is wrong. Specifically, if worker
A puts in some work at a centrally located plant that is easy to supply
with materials, while worker B puts in the exact same amount of work and
produces the exact same output, but at a remote plant where shipping in
raw materials and shipping out the finished product is more expensive, it
makes good economic sense to pay worker B less. If the law forbids this,
it is in the best interest interest of the company to fire B and replace
him with another worker A' at the central location, or better yet, not
even bother to build the remote plant (and bring jobs to this remote
location) in the first place.

I take pay equality to be one the central issues of feminism. On most
other issues, such as according equal dignity to females and males,
women's control over their reproductive organs etc. the feminist position
is obviously right, and no discussion is necessary as far as I can see.
But to discuss the pay equality question, we need to first establish
some common ground. Either you take equal pay for equal work as a moral
imperative, in which case we can discuss the issue quite independent
of gender considerations, or you agree that it's wrong (or at least
not right enough to be a principle that overrides everything else), in
which case we can start discussing how, and whether, the economic issues
I raised apply in the context of gender.

Andra1s Kornai

>
> I always found the Hungarian word for wife to be very expressive of a
> positive attitude toward women. Feleseg......means wife.....but also means
> Halfness.
> Half sounds pretty good to me.
>

No problem with this term, but then if the halves were considered equal
fromt he start....then the ancient roots of the word might means
something today. Not all pairs in this world are equal or have equity.

Darren

>zcapl74 > wrote:
>
>>         O.K., mainstream sports! But you are wrong with athletics, ice
hockey,
>> swimming and sailing; and even golf - O.k. he was an American Hungarian (I
>> think Bokros was his name, great player during the seventies)
>
>        I think you mean Julius Boros.  He died of a heart attack last
>May, ironically just as his son (Guy Boros, if I recall correctly) was
>taking part in the Colonial Invitational (the PGA tour's stop in my lovely
>home town, Fort Worth, Texas). 8-)
>
>        Norb
>
>You may recall a footbal player called Joe Namath, cetainly of Hungarian
blood, from my home town, but he did not play in Hungary, but that does not
matter.  Also Mike Ditka is one of us.

I'm not sure I'm in COMPLETE agreement with your comment Eva. That is,
however, not to say you are incorrect. I'll explain.

It has been my experience that there are many Hungarian women at positions
of power though far less than men (case in point, of our 10 or so firms at
least 3 are headed byy women), and they certainly seem respected, at least
in Budapest.  On the other hand, women still do all of the housework, men
seem to do none at all, and they do seem to face a world where the term
"sexual harrasment" doesn't actually mean anything.

      Please correct my observations if you disagree. I might point out
that perhaps sexual harrasment doesn't mean anything in Hungary because
it's not inherent in the social culture. This is more question than a
statement.

Yours,

G. Hemingway

The following appeared in an article by David Martin ("Wesley's World
Revolution) in the Dec. 31 issue of National Review:

"Somehow one would not expect Hungary to be host to a major incursion of
evangelical religion. Budapest in particular is too sleek and sumptuous
with its wide boulevards and Art Nouveau atmosphere. But the Faith Church
there is now accepted as the fourth largest religious group in the
country. What this group shows is the ability of a version of charismatic
Christianity to adapt to professional middle-class milieux and to operate
in the drug culture with a Christian simulacrum of the high-tech vibrant
style of the rock concert. The Faith Church is a megachurch on the same
model you find in Dallas, Akron, and Atlanta, and all over Latin America
from Guatemala City to Buenos Aires."

Question: What is this Faith Church? What is it called in Hungarian? And
where in BP is this megachurch located?

L. J. Elteto
Portland State University

 (GemFP) wrote:
>I am doing genealogy research on family members from a town which was
>called L. St. Ivan (not sure of spelling) and was part of Hungary in the
>1880s.
>
>Specifically looking for the surnames ADLER and BOGNER.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Lynn Fox-Perez
>
>--       ...in the pursuit of knowledge
>
Dear Lynn:

You might try Szent Istvan, or Szent Ivan - good luck, at least either
are proper spelling. My bet would be on the first of the two.

Regards

I plan to holiday in Hungary in August of next year.  I would very
much appreciate any one from Hungary to contact me prior to this.  I
would like to have some e-mail contacts with people to tell me a
little bit more about the country and perhaps even to show me round
when I get there.  I will be going with my father who  is Hungarian
and we will be visiting his family in the southern town of Bokosd.  No
doubt, we will also visit Budapest during our three week stay.

I would appreciate anyone who can help with practical information, but
I would also welcome e-mail from any one who has any opinions to offer
or just wants to make friends.

Kindest regards

Philip Osztromok

Dear Lynn,

Without meaning to criticize the well-meaning answers to your request for
info on "L. St. Ivan," I was remined of the plight of a group of Magyar
tourists at a streetcar stop in Bratislava in the 1980s.  They needed
directions and spoke nothing but Magyar, so several of us tried to help
by pointing on thier map but were defeated because the map had only the
former Magyar names of all the localities.

This "ostrich" attitude isn't new apparently because the Mdagyar name of
"Szentivan" (instead of Szentjanos) is peculiar for a town named after
St. Jan (= John) and the German name was always St. Johann (not Sz.
Istvan = St. Stephen!).  It's now named Liptovsky Jan, and is near the
much larger cities of Liptovsky Mikulas and L. Hradok (roughly between
the low and high Tatras).

For the genealogy, if you wait a few years, the church records will be
available on microfilm at the LDS Family History Libraries.  Until then
you'll have to look them up in the state archivaes in Slovakia.  The
records for the 20th century, however, are still in the respective
churches (since state records were kept in the churches for at least the
first part of the century).  If Adler is a Jewish name, you might have
good fortune in Israel, but I don't have a helpful address.

Good luck!

Norma Rudinsky  

There are topics which lend themselves to vigorous debates: feminism is one
of them. As far as the Hungarian situation is concerned (and you can add the
whole former socialist bloc) I have done a little research on it a few years
ago when a local woman's college invited me to speak about women in socialist
countries. Peter Hidas is quite right: from Marx on there was a lot of talk
about female equality but in practice it is something else. In the fifties
women entered the labor force in large numbers, partly as a result of planned
economic necessity, partly beacuse women were supposed to be equal to men.
But little effort was made to lighten their burden at home--most women work
themselves to death. Getting up at the crack of dawn, taking the child to
nursery school, going to work, picking up the child, traveling hours on
crowded buses, doing the daily shopping, going home and doing the household
chores. And all this with a less mechanized household than what we are
accustomed to. Loads of fun!

I read the statistics then and since, and believe me the men in these
countries do even less at home than they do in the United States. A great
deal less. Also women in politics are rare, their numbers in parliament are
small and even people who are supposed to be more enlightened and modern
(SZDSZ activists) say things like: men are fully capable of representing
women's issues in the political arena--no need for women to participate. This
and similar announcements lead me to believe that "feminist liberation" is
way overdue in Hungary.

As for Andras Kornai's example of Austria is concerned. Oh, my God! Austria
is one of the most provincial countries I have ever encountered, and it is
too bad that Austria is taken as an example for Hungarian social development.
But in Austria at least there are no pretenses. What is so galling is the
lip-service which is being paid to equality in the former socialist
countries. Andras mentions Latin America--again, at least there is no
pretense.

Eva Balogh

Our observer says:

>From my humble experience, the words do not exist to Hungarian
>"people" for there have always been, and am sure will continue to be
>equal #of females vs males, working the fields throughout the
>countryside, (if not more listed towards the female side), running the
>family finaces, etc, as were female doctors, scientists, etc.

Oh, yes. They are toiling side by side but the women are toiling a little bit
more.

>To my
>knowledge, feminism is about as a foreign state of mind to (at least the
>Hungarians, that I have had the pleasure of knowing) as to an american,
>the true meaning of communism would be.

Oh, yes, they just love working from morning till night, not advancing as men
do, getting home and doing all the household chores on top of it! Oh, no, it
never crosses their minds that this may not be fair! It is absolutely alien
to their psyche to think that this is discrimination. Oh, come off it,
Observer.

Eva Balogh

Joe Szalai > wrote:
>Is there such a thing as a feminist consciousness in Hungarian society?
>
>If someone asked me that question, I would, without hesitation say, 'No'.
>Although my contact with Hungarians is limited I have yet to see a couple
>whose relationship is anything but traditional.  And whenever a discussion
>would broach the topic, all the couples I've known, would often make
>comments which seemed to indicate that they thought feminism was some sort
>of bizarre and unnatural human aberration.  Is this attitude more common in
>Hungarian society than it is in Western Europe or North America?
>
>I know that a lot of writers on this list love to go on and on about the
>plight of Hungarian minorities in Romania, Slovakia and Serbia.  A lot is
>also written about the injustices that history has dealt to Hungary.  I
>wonder if any of the writers would like to comment on the domination of
>Hungarian women by Hungarian men.
>
>Regardless of what laws say, women are subjugated universally.  It is not
>just an Hungarian problem.  From what I've seen, Hungarians will not be
>leaders in this matter either.
>
>Joe Szalai

Dear Szalai:

Re: Feminism in Hungary... I will not, as you state go on and on re the
plight of Hung's etc.  But you only need to have been in the country,
between the years of 55 and 78, pushing it a bit more, towards the early
eighties, to understand the depth of your plight re: Hungarian
Femininism.

>From my humble experience, the words do not exist to Hungarian
"people" for there have always been, and am sure will continue to be
equal #of females vs males, working the fields throughout the
countryside, (if not more listed towards the female side), running the
family finaces, etc, as were female doctors, scientists, etc.  The only
difference I have ever wittnessed between the cultures of Hungary proper
and that of "north america" is simply the fact, that "people" (by that I
do mean male and/or female) did, exactly what they had to do either
survive or make a better life for those close to their hearts.  To my
knowledge, feminism is about as a foreign state of mind to (at least the
Hungarians, that I have had the pleasure of knowing) as to an american,
the true meaning of communism would be.

Too bad Szalai, that you have only met, what you consider to be the
"traditional of etc"... you might really enjoy meeting the "real" people
of hungary, to whom, traditional appears to mean just
that...traditionally progressive with life.

Regards
an observer

John Czifra > wrote:

>To "slag" something or someone is to knock that person or thing. Yes, Janos,
---
Life is tough enough without meaness!

John McMahon

I need someone in Hungary to do genealogy research for me. Belasco is the
surname and may have came from Pressburg.

Thank you,

D.R."Doc" Begnal-Young

http://pages.prodigy.com/CA/xcee48a/

I'm planning a trip to Hungary this summer.  I've just learned that
Budapest is hosting a World Expo in 1996 and am wondering what the dates
for it are.  I'm concerned that Budapest might be a bit crowded (read
expensive) during the Expo.  Also, we're hoping to get out of the city and
away from the tourist traps for at least a week.  I wrote the Hungarian
tourist bureau, but haven't received a reply.  We're hoping to see the real
Hungary.  Any suggestions or advice would be welcome.

Thanks,

Doug Hormann

To Whom It May Concern:

My new e-mail address is: .

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues!

The Hungarian Parliament is contemplating legistlation, which would open the
files of those persons (the "internal reactionaries") who were spied upon by
the III/III Department of the former Hungarian Secret Police, but WOULD NOT
open the III/I (information gathering), III/II (counter-intelligence), III/IV
(military intelligence) related files.

It seems to me that this legistlation should be extended to also apply to the
III/I, III/II and III/IV files. It was the III/I and III/II Departments,
who's job it was to spy on foreigners and on Hungarian emigrants. One of
their specific assignments was to plant discord among Hungarian groups and
thereby prevent our unified and therefore effective action. As they
infiltrated our organizations, spread lies and fueled personality conflicts,
they have done unrepearable damage, the effects of which still linger.
Because we were the ones who suffered the consequences of these activities,
it seems appropriate that we should request the broadening of this
legistlation.

In 1983, I was the subject of one such provocation: While searching (with
Imre Mecs) for the gravesite of Prime Minister Imre Nagy, I was attacked by
three plaincothes men, who refused to identify themself, while attempting to
drag me into a police station. I ended up in a hospital and following that,
for years I was not allowed into Hungary, not even for my Mother's funeral.
During the last five years, I have asked for my files from all Ministers of
the Interior, so that I might learn, who ordered this attack, but my request
was consistently denied, because these files were and still are secret.

Many of the III/I to III/IV operatives were also KGB officers. While I am not
advocating retribution, I do feel that the spiritual healing process does
require the opening of these files. Just as after WWII, the democratic
government of Germany, did not hide the attrocities of the SS and did not
attempt to cover up the crimes by saying, that "we all collaborated to some
degree, therefore let us forget everything", but opened up the SS files, so
should the AVH files be also opened.

If you agree with this, please send an e-mail (THIS WEEKEND!) either to Prime
Minister Gyula Horn ) or to the leader of
SZDSZ, the other  party in the governing coalition, Ivan Peto
).

I am leaving on a 4-week trip to Budapest-Bos-The Hague, so please forgive
me, if I do not reply to your letters for a month.

With best personal regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Hungarian Lobby Members. et al.

Another address for the Prime Minister of Hungary, Mr. Gyula Horn is:


Peter Soltesz

>Capitalism is an exploitive economic system.  Amongst other things,
>capitalism exploits male attitudes towards women, and on average, in Canada,
>women earn 70 cents to every dollar that a man earns for doing the same or
>similar job.
>
>Capitalism is not anti-women per se.  But if one is committed to a society
>free of exploitation and social ills, it seems strange to embrace capitalism
>without criticism.

>Joe Szalai


I'm not sure what to think about Joe's statement about capitalism.  First
off, I don't want anyone to think that I believe capitalism to be a perfect
system.  While those countries embracing capitalism have proven to have
generally high standards of living, it's readily apparent that wide
disparities exist.  In Portland, Oregon one merely has to drive from the
West Hills (richest) to the inner Northeast neighborhoods (poverty) to see
that capitalism has not brought about utopia on a grand scale.  Still
something bothers me about the statement "if one is committed to a cociety
free from exploitation and social ills, it seems strange to embrace
capitalism without criticism."

Is this there hasn't been any viable alternative?  Heaven knows that
socialism/communism has its own problems and proved in the end to carry its
own perils.  Recent posts to this forum complained about the plight of
women under communism.  (Let's allow women to work outside of the home just
as hard as men and also do all of the traditional work in the home as
well!)

In the U. S. the argument about wage disparity has been advanced as proof
that women are treated worse then men.  Recent research has shown that much
of this disparity is caused when women leave the workforce to raise a
family and not out of any secret agenda to subjugate women.  Does this mean
that women do not have a harder go of it when engaging in non-maternal
roles?  Not at all!  This merely points to the dilema faced by women who
choose non-traditional careers.  This is further complicated by the fact
that to achieve the middle class quality of life (I'm speaking of the U. S.
now) usually requires that both husband and wife work.  In the sixties, my
father, a high school teacher, could provide a comfortable living on his
own.  My mother stayed at home and minded the children.  Due to her poor
eyesight she could not work outside the home, but the point is she didn't
have to to supplement my fathers salary.

Today, my wife and I both work. (Fot the curious, she makes more than I
do.)  We live marginally better than my family did when I was growing up
thirty years ago.  My wife has often talked about quitting her job and
staying home to raise our son.  I've told her that I would support this
decision, yet she has always backed away.  Is this because she values her
identity as a professional chemist, or because she fears the loss in income
and associated degredation of our lifestyle.  While her staying at home
would probably benefit our son now, would our loss in income hurt him later
when it came time to finance his education.

I'm sure that its a combination of all of these things that make such a
decision difficult.  No amount of helping around the house on my part is
going to make it easier.  Magazines and other media groups often say to
women, "You can have it all!"  Is this really true, or is it a fantasy
envisioned by those who have never had to make these decisions?

I don't believe that capitalism can be blamed for all of these problems.
Capitalism is often called a system of opportunity.  It could likewise be
called a system of no guarantees.  If these opportunities bring with them a
new set of difficult questions, does this mean that the system is a
failure?

When I was a child, my mother and father made my decisions for me.  I
didn't have to worry about where I was going to go, or what I was going to
eat, or when I would go to bed.  My life was carefree and without worry.
When I became an adult and made all my decisions for myself, knowing that I
had only myself to blame for a wrong decision, my life became complicated
and sometimes full of worry.     Would I go back to being a child? What
would you do?

Regards,



Doug Hormann

Coming from west Europe I really respects the family values in Hungary. =
Are we (west European and Americans) the right to judge? Could we maybe =
learn something from Hungarians?

Is 3 years maternity leave only a way to hamper women to have career or =
is it also a way to ensure a secure childhood?

Has the emancipation of the women been worth the price and who is paying =
the price?

Is the Hungarian women repressed or is it the western counterparts that =
is chasing an ideal without ever considering if it is in their own =
interest?

I am not sure that families in west Europe are more happy than in east =
Europe.=20

Is the answer blowing in the wind or maybe among the esteemed members of =
this list?