On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:44:10 +0100, Karen Dunn Skinner
> wrote:

>Kedves Andrew:
>Javasalom a vislat. Very loving, easy to train (according to friends
>that have one) and beautiful.  Vislas are red (fox colour) with short
>fur and big silky ears.  After seeing many of them, adoring their owners
>as they rode on trams or sat obediently in Budapest restaurants, I can't
>think of a dog I'd rather own.  Pulis have their attractions, after all,
>you might be the only one on the block with a rastafarian dog.  However,
>they're pretty smelly and get very dirty!!!  Your biggest problem will
>be finding a good breeder, as I doubt Hungarian dogs are very well known
>in your neck of the woods.
>Good luck!
>
>Visszonthalasra
>--
>Karen Dunn Skinner

Thanks, Karen. Appreciate the input. I won't be taking this search
lightly. I figure, since I have waited this long, might as well be
compulsive about it (comes naturally to me, anyway).

The vizsla is a sweetheart of a dog, unfortunately EFisher (see
article on this thread) is quite right. They are too sweet and a
likely to lick a burglar to death. I am also partial to 'working'
dogs, and since hunting is not my kettle of fish (how's that for
mixing metaphors?), I would rather look at something larger and
meaner. OTOH, I may not be ready for a kuvasz or komondor. I am told
that they are too much for novice dog owners. Our last attempt at dog
ownership (a Bichon Frise) was an unqualified disaster, inasmuch as I
thought she was too 'nice' (therefore didn't like her) and my family
didn't want to participate in the chores. So we ended up with a
spoiled brat. Yuck!

Some hilarious stories about the vizsla on the Web, tho'.

Your comments are much  appreciated. Ko"sz.

Udvozlettel,

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>Oh yeah?  In his first paragraph, which I should have quoted, he said of

        Yeah!  So there!  Again, Joe I'd have you reread that which you
want me to reread.

>> Am I the only one who thinks that the level of discourse on this list has
reached the gutter?  It seems to me that a lot of people permit themselves
the use of language that is not normally used in civilized discourse between
supposedly educated people.  The worst of a bad lot is a relative newcomer
who, in addition of inundating the list with hundreds of lines of militant
homosexual and anti-religious tirades, produces prose that would make a
sailor blush. <<

        Seems to me if you dissect that paragraph - three-forths of it
relates to "style, content or use of language," however you chose not to
respond to what the point was in that posting, Joe, and decided that
what you wanted to focus on was more important to you.
        Now, if freedom of discussion and opinion is what you want, Joe,
it seems to me that in more lucid and level-headed thought ALL
viewpoints should be allowed their fair share of bandwidth, don't you?
        Or were you trying to stop the thread from escalating beyond
the point of name-calling and hate mongering?
        Strong shocking language does more to garner ill-will between
participants in a discourse than you might want to agree with Joe, but
you may be more forgiving than most and state, "Don't look at the name-
calling and shocking language but what that guy actually said?"
        Look beyond the "labels" that shocked you and instead SEE what
exactly what was being said in the particular post I am referring to.
        So that there is no room for speculation let me remind you of
what it actually said in plain English:

        What about the language in this guy's post? [personal opinion,
personal opinion, personal opinion] Man, this guy's use of language
leaves a little something to be desired! [personal opnion, personal
opinion, personal opinion].

        That's the way I saw it, Joe?  Why didn't you?  Again, as I
have said - IN THAT PARTICULAR POST.  :)


>When I read Mark's posts I didn't think that they were "hundreds of lines of
>militant homosexual and anti-religious tirades".  I thought that they were
>well written and thought provoking.  They were not tirades.  And they
>weren't militant!  In my books, if someone suggests that demands for
>equality are somehow "militant", then there's a better than average chance
>that they're "...phobes" or "...ists" of some kind.
>
>Then, at 04:45 PM 8/30/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak > confirmed my
>suspicions when he wrote:
>
>>You misunderstand, Joe.  It's not fear.  Just plain disgust.
>
>He doesn't mince his words, does he?  Is he homophobic?

        Joe, I appreciate your tendancy to want to vindicate yourself,
but please respond to me and what I wrote in my post as I didn't see
the above nor was I responding to the above.  I was only responding
to the post I followed up on.  Thanks in advance.

        Also methinks there is a double standard at work here Joe, that
I can see just from your two posts alone, and am now beginning to wonder
why it is that as civilized humans someone SHOULD have to do the extra
work you would have us do to cut through this guy's language to get to
the meat you say is there.  Because you suggest we do?  Not when you
defend the "gutter mouthed" guy's right to say something and not
allow anyone else to have an opinion about it or how it was phrased...

        Space abhors a vacuum, Joe, and you rushed in too quickly
methinks to fill it - but hey!, I could be wrong.  :)

Have a nice day!
Mike.  :)



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mike.  :)

What about Horn Gyula. He is the most obedient. Barks and has pedigree.

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:51:44 -0800, E Fischer >
wrote:

[........]
>i too found my dog from info on the web. actually, what i tried to find was
>a komondor, but there are no komondor breeder webpages. so i looked for
>info on a dog with a similar temperament, and ended up with a bouvier.
>great dog!
>

[........]>
>me, i like a dog with a more... ahm... serious nature. an intelligent
>companion. as far as hungarian breeds, i prefer the working dogs: komondor
>and kuvasz. with the puli a close second as it has a tendency to go
>overboard in the barking department.
>
>you may have to spend some time training them as all intelligent dogs need
>training... but the effort is well worth it.
>
>regards
>ef

This is precisely to what this search of mine will come down to: how
much dog do I want and how much effort am I willing to put into its
'education.' I can think of few things as annoying as ill-behaved,
untrained dogs. OK, OK... an ill-behaved, untrained, arrogant
Parisian. :-)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:53:11 -0500,  wrote:


>Like we say  -Cu aste basta-.

"We" who? At least make it rhyme, baietasule! That way you can't go
wrong. De pilda, 'cu asti basti, cu asto basto, cu astu bastu,' si asa
mai departe.  ;-) ;-)

Sheeeeshh....

(Hat persze hogy viccelek... tehat erdelyijek nyugi nyugi... ne
haborodjatok fel).
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

Andrew Rozsa wrote:
> The vizsla is a sweetheart of a dog, unfortunately EFisher (see
> article on this thread) is quite right. They are too sweet and a
> likely to lick a burglar to death. I am also partial to 'working'
> dogs, and since hunting is not my kettle of fish (how's that for
> mixing metaphors?), I would rather look at something larger and
> meaner. OTOH, I may not be ready for a kuvasz or komondor.

However nice it would be to see our childhood's familiar Hungarian
dogs around in foreign lands, it is a difficult proposition that
may not survive some objective examination.

In most countries Hungarian breeds are simply unavailable.  Where
they are, the number of breeding animals may be too small, resulting
in inbred specimens.  Hysterical, neurotic pulis are apparently a
common problem in Australia.  Western Europe and the US is probaly
better in the most popular breeds, but this cannot be taken for
granted.

So, look very carefully at the bloodlines and the dogs themselves
before buying.  In addition, do consider a local working dog as
an alternative.  A healthy, balanced dog is preferable to an
inbred one as company (looks are only skin deep) and I am all
with Andrew in the praise of working dogs.

As for me, I would most likely pick a blue cattle dog here in
Australia, despite my deep sentimental attachment to pumis.

George Antony

Hello Mike,
(We can continue this on private lines if you'd like. At first your
postings dealt w/ the debate of one posting's perceived homophobia. I even res-
ponded that I myself did not take the posting that way, but J. Szalai did make
some good points. Now, I have been mentioned in your last posting and would lik
e
to repond.)

I do not mean to interrupt your discussion with Joe regarding gutter lang., but
I guess I am the "gutter mouthed" guy you are talking about in your latest
posting to J. Szalai.  After seeing people slandered on the list, called
fascists, horrid communists... faszfejek s szabadmadarak... I wish people
would grow up and move beyond my calling an indiscriminantly destructive god
a f-fej. I doubt my postings would make a sailor or anyone blush. Perhaps some
of the points I tried to make offended some people by asking questions that
tried to make them think. For example, if this god is so loving, holy and just,
why do people find it so easy to say it's responsponsible for randomly selectiv
e
destructive acts of nature?  Instead of those being the actions of a just and
loving Creator, it seems more like a f-fej to me. Maybe if I said shithead that
would have been better, because no one gets special postings about their gutter
language if they use this word on the list.

No, I am not a "militant homosexual" who posted "hundreds of lines of mili-
tant homosexual and anti-religious tirdades." If you read the whole string of
the debate (instead of just one tract from one person- and their opinion) maybe
that would be clear.

Like I already posted: When people cannot tackle the issues they find it easier
to tackle the speaker. This is much nicer treatment than I probably would have
received several centuries ago. While Church members could be respected while
 damning others to hell and burning them, many people who asked questions and
questioned authority were burned. (But I guess that's just my OPINION. Others
 myhave the opininion that the Inquisition was a nice time simply stained by
 some bad kings and politicians...) I hope that was not an "anti-religious
 tirade."

I did not only use opinions, opinions and opinions.  I stated historic events,
gave personal anecdotes and asked questions.  What I seemed to often receive
in return were made up stories going of the topic and religious rhetoric. What
else do you want? The debate INCLUDED the issues of abuses of religion (but I
EVEN mentioned good points of religion in one posting!!) and the unjust, hypo-
critical treatment of gays. So, I was right on target in the debate and was
never simply on a tirade!

Therefore, I hope I am seen as much more than a gutter mouth by people who read
more than one tract of one person's postings.

** Ferenc's posting seemed perhaps a bit absurd. I would like someone to please
 quote at least 20 lines where I was on a tirade.  (That's a LOT less than
hundredS.  Also, how could I have made a sailor blush?) Why is using a name
against a destructive (possibly existant) god so terrible, but snide remarks
and abusive comments against fellow existing list subscribers accepted?? Maybe
people are more used to treating each other less respectfully than hearing
 their traditionally unquestioned idols questioned and cut to size.

What is meant by tirade? Was it a tirade to answer questions in a debate and
face the issues at hand?

I stated in one of my earlier postings that nuances of language are difficult t
o
express through a keyboard, so I hope no understandings would take place. Did
some people just CHOOSE to ignore that after I called a destructive being a
name?

As Joe stated, if Ferenc was so concerned about the gutter language, why did
he have to start by rejecting "militant homosexual and anti-religious tirades?"
He could have just said the list should be keep clean (I wish that would includ
e
snide remarks by others). But I already commented on this recently.

I hope you have a nice day, too.
- Gutter Mouth?

At 06:29 PM 9/5/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>A couple of weeks ago Eva Balogh said that she did not want to dismantle the
>welfare state.  She said that that was just my imagination.  It was only in
>my head.  Now, she says that she believes in "shock therapy" without
>explaining what she means by that term.

        I didn't think it was necessary to explain because the term has been
bantered around for at least six years. Jeffrey Sachs of Harvard, as advisor
to the Polish government, devised a plan which involved a quick change-over
from existing socialism to market economy. It didn't mean the total
dismantling of the welfare state but quick privatization and abandonment of
the old, bankrupt command economy as opposed to the dragged-out ways of the
Hungarian governments.

>What I'd like to know is, who is going to experience the "shock therapy"?
>And what I'd like to see is that those who promote such measures should
>experience their own medicine.  So, for example, if Eva Balogh wants the
>Hungarian government to "shock" people by reducing their wealth by, say 25
>percent, then she too should voluntarily reduce her wealth by the same
>percentage.  Perhaps she could make a financial donation to her nearest food
>bank.  This may be painful for her in the short run but I'm sure she'd
>benefit from the experience in the long run.  It would be a win-win situation.

        It is not too smart to comment on matters about which we don't know
much. You have no idea what shock therapy is but you assume that it means
making the population poverty-stricken. Please, take your blinders off. You
are an intlligent man, but when it comes to socialism and welfare state you
lose your common sense.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:44 PM 9/5/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote about me:

>like a pavlovian dog, she can produce an instant conditioned reflex,
>in this case, to the word "fascist".  She has her favorite "fascist" story
>and she will repeat it at a drop of a hat, no matter how disjointed it may be
>to the discussion at hand.  She must have told that one a half dozen times in
>Forum and in Hungary in the last several months.  I don't recall the name of
>the person she had the argument with -- may have been NPA -- over the meaning
>"nazi" versus "fascist".  Because she was shown to be imprecise in her use of
>the two words, she never forgave her debate partner.  Hence the wound that
>will not heal.

        Let me explain to you that the above story has absolutely nothing to
do with my pride or my forgiveness of my debating partners. Because, you
see, I don't think that there was anything wrong with using the word
"national socialist" instead of "Hungarist." After all the latter was simply
the Hungarian version of the former. The story is interesting because it is
a typical reaction of the extreme right. They nitpick on word usage, like
"fascist," "national socialist," "Hungarist," "Iron Guardist," etc. etc. Or,
those who announce that the word "antisemitic" is a misnomer because Arabs
are also semitic. All the above is hogwash and tactics to divert attention
from the important.

>Eva, please learn to be a bit more willing to learn from your opponents as
>well as from  your partisans.

        If you mean by that that I should learn something from people who
are busily rehabilitating Ferenc Szalas--no, thank you. But I am willing to
learn from people who are knowledgeable about matters I don't know much about.

>And while I am at it: Hoping that you will not
>resent it, let me help you with a word you are consistently misspelling:  The
>word is Wolf (not Woolf).

        Thank you.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:30 PM 9/6/96 +1000, George Antony wrote in answering me:

>I believe the popularity of this
>> government dropped exactly as much as the popularity of the Antall
>> government during exactly the same period.
>
>Has it ?  The Socialists are level pegging with the Smallholders (typical
>populists who can wash their hands of the Antall government's record as
>they were sidelined by him) as the most popular party and the Free
>Democrats tend to be at the same level as the Young Democrats.  All this
>after a very painful economic austerity that hurt just about every stratum
>of society.  In comparison, where is the MDF ?

        You either misunderstood what I said or I didn't say it very
clearly. The popularity of the two governments dropped exactly the same
percentage during the first two years after their taking office. In fact,
Sandor Revesz (the author of the book on Antall) wrote an article about this
very topic a few months ago. (Unfortunately, I don't remember which
newspaper it was; I read it in the Tallozo.) Revesz in his book had attached
great significance to the fact that the Antall government lost such
significant percentage of its popularity. Four years later he had to admit
that there was nothing unique about that drop because exactly the same thing
happened to the Horn government.

ESB:
>>         And finally, inflation is still high (nowhere close to 20%),
>> economic growth slowed, GDP is lower than last year, and so on and so forth.
>> Should I continue?

GA:
>By all means, but this is a rather pointless litany of complaints without
>reference to, and comparison with, the likely effects of alternative policies.
>
>It is also very inconsistent that you claim to want economic reform but
>then fault the Socialists for the negative impact when they introduce it.
>So, economic reform is needed, as long as it is not coming from the
>'tainted old commies' ?

        First of all, I am at a disadvantage. You are an economist and I am
not. But as far as I know with a restrictive economic policy at least the
inflation was supposed to drop rather significantly. It didn't. Yes, I am
all for economic reform but this government's economic reform is very
half-hearted and as a result it doesn't really do what it is supposed to do.
Right now we are on the slippery slope again: backing away from the reforms.
As for your last sentence, I think you are unfair and I resent it. I am
simply trying to be analytical and fair. I don't particularly care about
these guys' background as long as they perform. I am complaining about their
*performance* not their background. Their background is important only
insofar as it didn't prepare them for the tasks ahead.

ESB:
>> I can't imagine that the MSZP if it had been voted into office in 1990 would
>> have been the party to dismantle quickly the edifice of "existing
>> socialism."

GA:
>No, but this is pointless idle speculation.  What is fact is that in 1994
>they did start dismantling the remnants of existing socialism

        OK. But in 1944 it looked to everybody that the MSZP government is
going to stop even the slow dismantling of existing socialism. Further debts
were accumulated and the economic situation further deteriorated.

>> Perhaps the SZDSZ would have done it then, I don't know.
>
>Fast economic reform was the centrepiece of their political platform and
>they continued that political line pretty consistently ever since.

        Unfortunately, they are not strong enough in the government to make
a real impact. Horn lately have been making threatening little speeches
about not "caving in" to the SZDSZ in the future as he did in the past.

>Czechoslovakia managed with a much smaller blip in GDP than Hungary and
>they started from further behind.  True, the jury is still out on the
>Czech method of capitalist transformation, but they did manage to avoid
>the extent of economic and social dislocation that befell Hungary.

        Indeed, the jury is still out.

ESB:
>>         OK. So, what you mean is a talent for politics. Yes, Demszky
>> obviously has talent for it but he wasn't a professional politician. Neither
>> was Peto or Orban. But, I am afraid, most of the MSZP members of the
>> government were professional politicians in the sense of party or KISZ
>> functionaries.

GA:
>You are still driven by simplistic prejudices: once a functionary under
>the ancien regime, never suited for a different system.  That ignores the
>fact that there are people who are intelligent enough to play the game
>whatever its rules may be.  There are others who may well have hidden
>their real persona and played the only game in town.  Csurka is a good
>example, and perhaps there were some with democratic instincts.  Besides,
>one did not have to be a party or KISz functionary in the ancien regime
>to be imbued with its political style through playing by its rules.
>This was required from those at the level of, say, museum director.

        Again, let me repeat it: I don't particularly care where these guys
are coming from as long as they do a decent job. But this government is not
as perfect as you try to make it out. And please, don't underestimate the
"old reflexes" argument. It is true, of course, not just within the
government but everywhere in the country, including the media. Article after
article appears in Hungarian papers about the self-censoring a la the good
old days. These reflexes are real and decades will be necessary to
obliterate them.

>So, I would suggest that any discussion of current Hungarian politicians
>and their performance should only consider their current deeds, not from
>where they have come.  This incessant harking back to the past is what
>is holding Hungary back most: the country needs a clear break much more
>than settling old accounts.

        This is not about settling accounts. This is about performance and
the reasons for the rather low level of performance. Low level of
performance in both the Antall and the Horn gobernments. I am not saying
that another government could do better. In fact, several times I made
allusions to the fact that something very seriously wrong with the society
as a whole and it will take decades to change the attitude of the people,
including that of the politicians.

        Eva Balogh

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music. 

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible, right 
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves 
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00  
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, kozvetlenul
                                      a magyar nagykovetseg mellett)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank: 
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/	
**********************************************************************

.

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music.

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible, right
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, kozvetlenul
                                      a magyar nagykovetseg mellett)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank:
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/
**********************************************************************

.

>On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:44:10 +0100, Karen Dunn Skinner
> wrote:
>
>>Kedves Andrew:
>>Javasalom a vislat. Very loving, easy to train (according to friends
>>that have one) and beautiful.  Vislas are red (fox colour) with short
>>fur and big silky ears.  After seeing many of them, adoring their owners
>>as they rode on trams or sat obediently in Budapest restaurants, I can't
>>think of a dog I'd rather own.  Pulis have their attractions, after all,
>>you might be the only one on the block with a rastafarian dog.  However,
>>they're pretty smelly and get very dirty!!!  Your biggest problem will
>>be finding a good breeder, as I doubt Hungarian dogs are very well known
>>in your neck of the woods.
>>Good luck!
>>
>>Visszonthalasra
>>--
>>Karen Dunn Skinner
>
>Thanks, Karen. Appreciate the input. I won't be taking this search
>lightly. I figure, since I have waited this long, might as well be
>compulsive about it (comes naturally to me, anyway).
>
>The vizsla is a sweetheart of a dog, unfortunately EFisher (see
>article on this thread) is quite right. They are too sweet and a
>likely to lick a burglar to death. I am also partial to 'working'
>dogs, and since hunting is not my kettle of fish (how's that for
>mixing metaphors?), I would rather look at something larger and
>meaner. OTOH, I may not be ready for a kuvasz or komondor. I am told
>that they are too much for novice dog owners. Our last attempt at dog
>ownership (a Bichon Frise) was an unqualified disaster, inasmuch as I
>thought she was too 'nice' (therefore didn't like her) and my family
>didn't want to participate in the chores. So we ended up with a
>spoiled brat. Yuck!
>
>Some hilarious stories about the vizsla on the Web, tho'.
>
>Your comments are much  appreciated. Ko"sz.
>
>Udvozlettel,
>
>Bandi
>
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>                 <mailto:>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>
Just a friendly suggestion:my Son who lives in Florida has a chocolate brown
retriever.
He does not hunt or fish.The dog is a marvel.
On the other hand if you looking at a smaler dog I would hignhly recommend a
Shitzu.
Good watchdog and a sweetheart of a companion.We had one for 11
years,unfortunatly we had to put him down,since he had cancer,
Regards:Andy.>

> >=============================================================
> >      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
> >                 <mailto:>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
> >          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> >=============================================================
> >
> Just a friendly suggestion:my Son who lives in Florida has a chocolate brown
> retriever.
> He does not hunt or fish.The dog is a marvel.
> On the other hand if you looking at a smaler dog I would hignhly recommend a
> Shitzu.
> Good watchdog and a sweetheart of a companion.We had one for 11
> years,unfortunatly we had to put him down,since he had cancer,
> Regards:Andy.>
>

This dog discussion is really informative. I agree with the above praise of
Shitzus. A neighbor of mine is going to start raising them. They seem to need
a lot of grooming, though. (More than I expect from the average dog.) They don'
t
seem to shed, (if you are worried about dog hairs), and don't have much of a
'dog smell.' (Probably from all that grooming!)    - Mark

Hello Mark
At 02:29 PM 9/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
<snip prior - and forgive my jumping into this discussion>
>Perhaps some
>of the points I tried to make offended some people by asking questions that
>tried to make them think. For example, if this god is so loving, holy and just
,
>why do people find it so easy to say it's responsponsible for randomly
selective
>destructive acts of nature?  Instead of those being the actions of a just and
>loving Creator, it seems more like a f-fej to me. Maybe if I said shithead tha
t
>would have been better, because no one gets special postings about their gutte
r
>language if they use this word on the list.
>
I think that you should well have succeeded at making people think - and for
what it's worth I have enjoyed your posts which indeed have utilized
historical events as you so claim.  As to the responses you are getting, I
see them as rather simple - you are treading on extremely sensitive if not
dangerous grounds.  (As is this posting of mine....Not to forget the lingo
btw, well - I too have been reprimanded for using the "s" word).  Oh well,
such is life.

My opinions on this topic are far too simple also I am afraid - which ought
to make for some heated discussions, but here goes anyhow.....  When
discussing the viability of any idol or any God, to me, there are only three
known opinions.  The opinions of the believers the non believers and of
those, whom are so involved from the internal structure of their chosen
religions, that they have become blinded if not fanatically single minded to
that one cause alone - whether or not preserving that cause keeps them
believers or not seems be irrelavent.  The way I see it, it takes
intelligence to question; it takes open mindedness and strong faith to
defend ones' beliefs when questioned.  It also takes a special sort of human
who can deal with being questioned without immediately becoming defensive or
obnoxius.  (From what I have wittnessed such rarely exists- Mother Theresa
being an rarity for example).

For insight - I have been raised simultaneously as both a Catholic and a
Protestant (due simply to the fact that my Father's family was one and my
Mother's family was another.  Neither of whom relinquised or gave an inch
towards understanding the other's religion).  I married a man, whose
grandmother locked the door and would not let her son back into the house
for an entire week, when she discovered that he was dating a Protestant
woman.  (The two have been married for 47 years by the way).  Many of my
closest friends are Catholics (some are at the Vatican) others are ex-for
they disliked the internal politics along with the theatrics (that's quote
unquote btw) yet some others are Buddhists, and many are Orthodox Jews.  I
have made a concerted effort on learning as much as possible on religions at
large - just to understand the conflict which began way back when - when one
taught this; and the other taught that, yet they both taught "love thy
neighbour" in the same breath as fighting over who'se interpretation of God
was more real.

I won't bore the entire group any further than this with my personal
thoughts - since that would take weeks and weeks of writing.  I still
encourage you all interested in this thread to view Monsigneur - it's
banning by the Vatican left me equally as much in an awe as wittnessing
some Catholic friends whom I proudly brought to visit the Basilica at
Esztergom during the late 60's rush down the stairs in order to throw up in
a bathroom - rather than onto the square from the tower. This reaction has
served many an eves' conversation around a fire since.... Or for that
matter,  any more than a letter written by a highly ordained individual to
an extremely devout Catholic woman who was fell in love with a Jewish man -
and asked for the Churchs' blessing of her marriage (this letter btw, was
found by my husband and I upon inheriting the family bible after both his
parents passed away - the letter is over 30 years old now - yet it served to
shape the base structure on religion of people unborn at the time).  If you
Mark are interested in it, please let me know; I'll be happy to fax or Email
to you privately.

Well, in keeping with my promise not to bore all ...  I'm signing of - I
felt a need to get this off my chest.  But in all honesty; with legitimate
questions, comes legitimate progress ... If people on this group cannot get
along by respecting each others' differences  -  when considering the few
numbers involved relative to humanity at large; just what sort of hope is
there for the entire humanity to be at peace with each other.  And in
closing I ask - just what sort of an effort are each religious sectors
extending to "all others" in order to help attain that commonly conceived
human goal?  My apologies once again for the intrusion...

Best regards,
Aniko

At 11:36 AM 9/6/96 +1000, you wrote:
> From: Charles M. Vamossy >
>> George Anthony wrote:
>>
>> The buyer
>> probably had reasonable expectations that the negotiators representing
>> the Government had the approval of its head.
>
>Not necessarily.  The PM is not party to every negotiation, usually
>gives his imprimatur at the final stage and it is his prerogative to
>overrule his underlings.  It is like this everywhere in the world.
>

Possibly...  I certainly have no first hand information to prove my point
and I quite agree that he has the right to overrule.  Nevertheless, PM Horn
has a reputation for being a somewhat of a micro-manager and it is highly
unlikely that the first time he saw the deal was when it was announced in
the press. (I recall rumors of the deal reported in the press for weeks
before the final version.)  If, in fact, he had problems with the deal, he
could have intervened quietly and effectively.  The fact that he chose to
wait until it was publicly announced implies to me that he was more
interested in popular reaction than good business.

>> When PM Horn announced
>> busting the deal, the US buyer was probably heard muttering a few
>> choice words under his breath about Hungarian general business
>> standards and the people who practise them...
>
>If this welshing on a not-quite-delivered deal is seen as uniquely
>Hungarian, then some reality checking is in order.  Even in a
>developed country such as Australia there are many cases in the
>public domain where businesses were similarly treated by various
>governments.
>
Again, I see your point...  Far be it from me to suggest that Hungary is the
only country where such things occur.  Couple points, though:  1.  this deal
was very much a "done deal", publicly announced by the Government Agency in
charge.  2.  Hungary's budget depended (and depends) highly on income from
privatization, much more than the US or Australia.  PM Horn placed high
priority on the program's success.  It would seem, therefore, that bad
publicity stemming from poor management of the process would have far more
disastrous effect on Hungary.  I wish it weren't so, but unfortunately
Hungary considerably depends on selling off the family jewels to make ends meet
.

   >> As far as breach of contract is concerned, the buyers may have toyed
>> with the idea but ended up rejecting it.  Even if an agreement that had
>> the standing of a contract could be produced (which is doubtful) where
>> would s/he file her complaint?  In a Hungarian Court?  This is the same
>> group of legal whizzes who ruled that property taken away by the
>> communists based on laws that have since been declared illegal stays
>> with the illegal owners as long as the original legal owners were given
>> partial compensation, in other words legalizing the theft of property.
>> Surely our US buyer could not hope for fair treatment in such a court.
>
>This is a rather derogatory treatise of the Hungarian legal system,
>probably stemming from lack of information.  The Hungarian legal
>tradition is of strict case law, with very little scope for the effective
>lawmaking capacity of courts or judges in Anglo-Celtic countries.
>Hence, in Hungary the Parliament makes the law and the courts just
>act on it.  Only the Constitutional Court that has the power to
>rule on the legality of legislation, but they would not be
>involved in commercial litigation.
>

It was exactly the Constitutional Court I was making reference to by
bringing up the Compensation Plan.  Given the self serving laws passed by
Parliament and upheld by that court, what chance would a foreign businessman
have in the lower commercial Courts?  Possibly, if he was clearly swindled
or his property was stolen, he might make his case, but in this case, I am
sure he would have not a prayer.

>> So the US buyer walked away a great deal wiser about doing business in
>> Hungary.  About the only thing s/he did was to make sure that the New
>> York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times and the
>> Economist had the whole story,
>
>I only read The Economist and they made merely a most cursory
>mention of Horn  canceling a high-profile privatization deal  in
>an April article about the economic austerity program,
>entitled  Radical at last.

More coverage was given in the Economist's Business Central Europe
publication.  As far as cursory mention of this case in the main
publication, they rarely give Hungary more than brief mention.  The other
publications also did short, concise stories on it.  The real problem is
that instead of encouraging, positive, business friendly coverage, they were
all very negative.
>
>But, as evidenced by recent developments, the whole aggro did not
>prevent other suitors from offering a higher price for the assets.
>

You have to wonder, though, how many businessmen with any particular
attachment to Hungary by virtue of their birth passed up bidding on deals
based on the negative publicity.

>> before buying a plane ticket to Prague
>> to check out what might be for sale there.
>
>If the US buyer is checking out the Czechs with expectations of more
>generous treatment he (or she, of course) will be in for a shock.
>While I cannot cite examples and references, I recall cases of
>disputation between potential investors and the government.
>
>> And PM Horn sat back, content with his sudden rise in domestic
>> popularity as a result of his well planned action...
>
>Indeed, as the people he has to please to get re-elected is the
>domestic electorate, not a bunch of US hoteliers.
>

You are quite right...   He certainly would have a much easier time pleasing
his electorate if the bunch of US hoteliers -- hand in hand with other US
businessmen -- would just hand over their money to PM Horn without insisting
on actually taking posession of the assets they bought.  He could then
concentrate on balancing his budget, keeping everyone employed with full
benefits.  I wonder if he sometimes thinks about his role as a member of the
Kadar regime in attracting and building up the 19 billion dollar debt...
Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...

BTW, as I wrote you privately, I enjoy your thoughtful and well reasoned
arguments, even if I also take some measure of satisfaction in presenting mine.

with best personal regards,


Charlie Vamossy

Dear A.Albu,

I have been watching your constant efforts to provoke. As I do not want you hav
e
a stroke after so much frustration, I decided to give you some advices. It woul
d
be slightly better to try other ways here in the HUNGARY list. I think some
 hard-
liner homphobic stuff would be sufficient to have some pleasant name-
calling with Joe Szalai, or some anti-american post would focus the attantion o
f
our 'internet gral knight' (S.Stowe) on you. However if you want to keep your
provocation stuff exclusively hungarian-bashing then there is no other solution
,
you have to learn some Hungarian and move to the FORUM list.

J.Zs