You wrote:
>
>I am a student at Washington and Lee University in Lexington,
Virginia.
>Last year, while an exchange student in Hungary, I participated in
>several Dance Houses and I have been able to get our international
club
>interested in holding one.  I am looking for a Hungarian dance group,
or
>evemn one or two people who are interested in coming to run the house,
ie.
>supply the music, teach different steps and even show some dances.  We
>will, of course, take care of the building, admission, refreshments,
>etc.  At this point we don't have any dates, we are just exploring our
>options.  The group needs to be based somewhere in Virginia, or this
>area, no more than a day's drive or so.  We are located about
>an hour north of Roanoke on Route 81.
>
>Ko:szo:nettel,
>Bill Overbaugh
>
Hi,

I'm not familiar with your area, but you can speak with Kovacs Arpad of
the Tisza ensemble in Washington, D.C.. email: 

Jon Rand

Gentlemen!

I've got news for you! The HMOs that we are reqiured to join now are the
foreruners of socialized medicine. I remember when my doctor used to
spend two hours doing the annual physical. I had one last month: my
doctor was in and out of the exam room in FIFTEEN MINUTES! It was a once
over - not an annual physical! And if the for profit organizations will
have their way, in a few years it will be done over the NET! Just answer
a few questions and the computer will figure out if your are OK or not.

Jozsi

Never mind Celia, the magic of market forces will no
doubt will solve the problems of the serious underfinancing
of education and research...  And if science and education
is deemed  unnecessary (logical outcome)  there's no need
to worry about books at all.  History professors have to be
retrained to the requirements of the financial environment.
(bitter smiley)
Eva Durant

>
> >Hm?  Everyone was fairly happy with the NHS system here (UK)
> >until the tories decided to save money.
>
> I wonder why the tories decided to save money? Is it possible that because
> it was running out?
>

Funnily enough it was not running out for farm subsidies and
the new submarine-programme. Or subsidies for say Malaysia
to buy arms, etc, etc.

>
> The system in Hungary implied that the patient was supposed (and still is)
> to slip an envelope with money into the doctor's pocket after being treated
> (not unlike a barbershop). The poor patient never knows if it is enough, the
> poor doctor has to accept it because of the low salary. You think this
> "works better"?
>

In the 80s I coped with the system without such payments.
The local doctor was part of the village establishment,
and as I had no idea about the "procedure" and was skint,
I've never have given any money to anyone, and I, and my
family was treated very well.  In the Kaposvar hospital,
the young doctor who I asked desparate, how and howmuch
to pay (in an emergency) told me that she would not take
money, but the head of department likes cognac.
I think doctors do their best, and if they are offered
something afterwards, they take it, as their salary is so
pitifully low. But seems to me, that most money goes to
established consultants, who are rich anyway.



> >It would be even cheaper, if pharmaceuticals
> >were in the public domain...
>
> Just check, how many of the past few decades' revolutionary (sorry for this
> word) drugs were invented in the state-owned pharnaceutical companies of
> Eastern Europe and Soviet Union? Sick people (unless they belonged to the
> elite) in need of an advanced drug just died. But it was cheaper.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas


I have no idea, all I know, that there were damn good
and ridiculously cheap medicine in the eighties.
The choice in contraceptives and antibiotics were
greater, that I'd found here, and were affordable
for everybody.  Ask any pensioners in Hungary, if
their medication has improved since...  ask if
sick people  and hospitals can efford those
all foreign-owned medicines now.

Eva Durant

Please help us locate an old family friend LASZLO GAZDAG who
settled in Australia in 1957. Laci was born in Budapest on
October 28, 1932. We have been searching for him on the
aus.genereal and the aus.net.announce, but heard nothing.

Your suggestions would be appreciated!

Koszonjuk szepen.

JP&MP

Hali,

Here's something interesting. Funny how the Ukraine and Romania are willing to
use the "full assertion of the ethnic minority individuals' right to use their
language and culture" at the recommendation of the Council of Europe, except
for their Hungarian and Roma populations, though the situation in Sub-Carpathia
seems to have improved over the last couple years, but on the whole the change
is very slow.
________________________________________________
Don't you folks love double-standards???
________________________________________________
   BUCHAREST, March 2 (UPI) -- Romanian and Ukrainian diplomats agreed Saturday
to bury the hatchet on their ethnic minority issues to hasten the signing of a
bilateral treaty, but tension remained high over Romania's claim to a Black Sea
island, a Ukrainian official said.
   "This was a successful round of talks, as we agreed on all articles on the
agenda," said Vladimir Vasilenco, Ukraine's ambassador to Bucharest, at the end
of five days of intensive diplomacy.
   The two sides agreed to resort to the Council of Europe's recommendations
providing "full assertion of the ethnic minority individuals' right to use thei
r
language and culture," said Romanian Foreign Ministry spokesman Florin Ducaru.
   While ready to give up on the fate of some 500,000 ethnic Romanians engulfed
in Ukraine during the Second World War, Romania pressed hard on its right to a
tiny Black Sea island, still controlled by Ukrainian military forces.
   The Island of Serpents, ceded by Romania to the Soviet Union in 1947, is
crucial to the former Soviet bloc satellite to cut out what officials call "its
12-mile-wide international sea waters."
   "It is not its size that attracts us, but its strategic position which allow
s
us to have access to the oil-rich continental shelf that rightfully belongs to
Romania," said diplomat Dumitru Ceausu.
   Tension rose recently when Romania's foreign minister threatened to lodge a
complaint at the International Court in The Hague against Ukraine's illegal
possession of the island, forcefully taken by Soviet Union.
   Ukraine accused Romania of raising territorial claims that violate the 1975
Helsinki Act and also threatened to take the matter to the Hague.
   Although the Romanian Foreign Ministry said "the high emotional phase has
been overcome," negotiators refused to bring up the territorial issue during
their sixth meeting in Bucharest.
   "This issue will be resolved at a higher level," said Vasilenco, adding that
the prime ministers of the two states were scheduled to meet March 18.
   Vasilenco said both sides were eager to get over the deadlock  "because we
give the impression of two states unable to settle our problems."
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I'll be shedding some light on the happenings in Sub-Carpathia. This is an
often overlooked area by Hungarians as well as others.


Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

>
> Probably they would also find my opposition to monarchy nothing short of
> amazing;-).

Actually, opposition to the monarchy is not an amazing
feature here, even if it is not making it to the front
pages of the tabloids.  I think even the Tony-party
will be forced to do something about it.


>
> Let me throw in another reason why I am so opposed to it: once the
> government takes over, all health care workers become civil service
> emplyees. For some strange reason (it must be the water-or the total job
> security) those employees don't like to work as hard as their employers and
> get benefits that exceed their empoyers' (the taxpayers). Show me another
> place of employment where the employee gets better benefits than the employe

extremely lowpaid and very hard-working nurses and fire-men
would be rather surprised by your observations.
If a civil servant here is high paid, than you can safely
assume, that he (he!) is a burocrat in the hospital, or
in the council etc.

>
> Here is another reason why government control is not indicated. You just
> cannot trust them to safeguard your private data and if they mishandle it
> you cannot even sue them. To avoid the problem, the system is kept
> inefficient and more expensive. No problem, the taxpayer's pocket is
> endlessly deep and there is no competition.
>

'Cause it is all safe and fair and controlled  with private companies.
Which universe do these people emerge from? Not mine...
Eva Durant

Sziasztok,

Is there any possible way we can use Joseph Balazs's UPI report on the Serpent
Island affair between the Ukraine and Romania against them?? If they are
willing to obey the Council of Europe's request to settle ethnic differences
first, then we should jump in this opening they've left us and kill two birds
with one stone. We should make it clear to these parties involved (The Council
of Europe, Ukraine, and Romania that this agreement shouldn't just cover ethnic
Romanians or Ukrainians, but those of other ethnic origins as well. Those in
the Sub-Carpathian region don't have it quite so great, either (as I'll update
you, soon). Is anyone in contact with the Cultural Alliance of Hungarians in
Sub-Carpathia (KMKSz)?? The Council of Europe?? How about e-mail addresses in
the Ukraine?? How about Ukrainian groups in the US?? This way we can tie up any
negotians between the two countries. We should tie in the Pal Cseresznyes
affair, Seprent Island, The Ukrainian law on National Minorities, The National
Salvation Front's declaration on the Rights of National Minorities, and the
education laws being set up by the Romanian government, as well. The Romanian's
can't have back those 500,000 people, but they want the Ukraine to grant them
equal rights, when they can't do the same themselves, for Hungarians.

Ridiculous!!!


Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Dear Jocsi;

At 06:03 AM 3/4/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Gentlemen!
>
>I've got news for you! The HMOs that we are reqiured to join now are the
>foreruners of socialized medicine. I remember when my doctor used to
>spend two hours doing the annual physical. I had one last month: my
>doctor was in and out of the exam room in FIFTEEN MINUTES! It was a once
>over - not an annual physical! And if the for profit organizations will
>have their way, in a few years it will be done over the NET! Just answer
>a few questions and the computer will figure out if your are OK or not.
>
>Jozsi
>
Hi, there. I hope you remember me.  I enjoyed the visit to your shop and
look  forward to a return visit.  I'll bring my cousin in April.  She'll
love it.

Now on the U.S. medical care.  I know what you mean.  But it isn't just
limited to HMO's.   The insurance industry has tight control over the time
of doctors in PPO's also, and has for some time.  That's how they missed my
mother's cancer for almost a year, and how they missed my own rather serious
endocrine illness for nearly 4 years.  Tests?  We don't need no stinkin'
tests?  What do you mean, "read the medical histories, please."  We don't
need no stinkin medical histories; _all_ "my" patients undoubtedly fit into
3/4 of all the bell curves for everything; snapshot generic minimalist exams
are just fine.  "We (doctors, insurance companies) don't need to worry."
True, _they_ don't.

However, it would be interesting to learn if the national health programs in
other countries are _generally_ any better?  If not, how about some
suggestions for the U.S. as it tries to create a new system that avoids the
mistakes of previous systems?  If a system is better, what are the means of
enforcing the standards?  Any checks and balances, oversight boards?  If so,
who comprises the boards--what percentages of what types of people, etc.?

Thanks for everyone's attention and consideration.

Sincerely and respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 








N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

I've been also wondering how well "alternative health care" (accupuncture,
herbs, cell salts, chiropractors, hot springs, etc.) are covered by the
national health care programs outside of  the U.S.  Also, has anyone
compared  with double blind studies, a statistical compilation/analysis of
scientific sampling of cases, etc. the results of these treatments with
"allopathic medicine?"  Is there a body of alternative treatments that has
been tested and studied to the satisfaction of "allopathic" medicine to the
point that a significant number of MD's feel as comfortable using the
alternatives as they do the allopathic and will use them in tandem, or use
the alternatives where the allopathic stuff doesn't really affect a healing,
but only temporary symptomatic relief?

In the U.S., only some "alternative medicines/practices," or a few uses of
some, have been sufficiently studied and have specific AMA recommendations
as to how they can be used.  There has been no complete study of
accupuncture, for instance, or most herbs--Asian, American, European or African
.

Now, I know that some readers of this group are also using alternative
medicine for some purposes and familiar with the netgroups, etc. for this
subject.  I've been going through some of the groups, also--so far a couple
of dozen through the usenet and AOL's web crawling.  I've been looking for
something in particular--even resorted to a few giant search mechanisms, and
haven't found it yet.  It's possible that it just doesn't exist in the U.S.
and that's what I've been mostly searching, but that it does somewhere in
Europe.  So, here goes.

I have a serious endocrine illness that has no western medicine that can
affect a real cure.  I am on large doses of diuretics just for temporary
control.  If I skip just one half day's dose, I can--and do--literally gain
up to 10lbs (about 5 kilos) of water weight in just one day.  Even at the
best of times, I am still always carrying almost 20 lbs of water that is
more than "normal" people without this medical condition.  The condition has
been around on the planet for a long time, and without symptomatic control,
it is fatal, and preceded by a long period of physical limitations.  It used
to be called "hydropsy" or "dropsy."  Because of the understanding that it
is usually caused in part by damage to the adrenal glands, usually in
combination with damage to the thyroid, it is now called "cyclical edema
(oedema, whatever)," "hyperaldosteronism", or "hyperadrenalism."

It usually starts with either a flu virus that spreads throughout the body
and settles in glands along the way, or a post child-birth infection.   In
my  case it was the flu.  The adrenal glands end up "irritated" or "damaged"
by the virus/infection--or its residue left behind.  The problem  appears to
be going on inside the cells of the glands.  The cells have been stimulated
into much greater activity in an attempt to rid the gland of an irritant,
but either cannot do so quickly, or take a long time for themselves to heal
after exposure to something similar to sandpaper scraping them all over.
The doctors are not sure exactly what is going on at the cellular level
inside the glands, only that this is where the problem is.

The adrenals govern the "fight or flight" response, the level of energy and
stamina, and the body's healing mechanism for wounds--especially anything
involving a great loss of blood.  A very overactive pair of adrenals locked
into the "very active position" for a long period of time, orders the body
to store up extra minerals--especially sodium--and water, because they are
expecting the body to be wounded and need the extra to make new blood.  It's
also like forming a shield or cushion between the vital organs, etc. and the
danger outside.  The greater the "anticipation" from the adrenals, the
greater the amount of water they will order.  The problem is that they don't
know when to quit, or when the quantity of water is too much for the
circulation, heart, stomach, etc. to handle.  Death usually comes when the
weight of the water increases to the point of collapsing the circulatory
system, and then squeezing the heart--or drowning in a build up finally of
water in the lungs, or an imbalance of potassium and sodium causing a severe
muscle cramp in the chest muscles around an already pressured heart and
causing a heart stoppage.

Other "lesser" effects.  It alters the digestive processes, slowing it down
greatly at some places, speeding it in others, generally reversing major
areas, and causing additional problems through this.  For women, it also
makes it nearly impossible to have children from erratic production of
hormones, overproduction, etc. all at the wrong times.  Completely destroys
any regularity or predictability of any cycles.  Damages the immune
response;  wears out the immune processes faster.  Few of these symptoms are
controlled by the standard prescriptions for this illness--mostly just
diuretics for the control of the water weight.

Thus, diuretics keep the water weight from building up to dangerous levels.
However, long-term use of diuretics carries itself a greater risk of kidney
disease and failure, also liver damage.  The doctors have told me that with
the controls of the diuretics and cutting way back on various activities in
my life (while the problem does not usually start with stress-stress is an
aggravating factor and will prolong the problem or increase the severity),
studies have shown the adrenals can heal--in 10 years or so.

By the way, in the 20th century, this is primarily a man's disease; found
(quote), "primarily in executives of large companies or national and
international political figures with great or extensive responsibilities."
It's been less common in women with the reduction of childbirth infections.
Anyhow, because it's been thought of as a man's disease, that's one of the
reasons neither doctors nor insurance companies are willing to readily test
women for it...

At this point, I've tried accupuncture from 2 different Chinese authorities,
a number of herbal remedies both Western and Eastern, yoga, meditation and
prayer.  Nothing seems to work much--even after months of faithful use.
There was a slight improvement with melatonin, but even that effect seems to
have levelled off.  I'm also a member of NORD (National Organization for
Rare Diseases).  None of the alternative medicine groups I've found so far
has anything new (most don't even have this illness in their "files") that
is more than a wild--"well I've heard this works for such and such and that
seems like it might be related to your problem,"--guess.

About six months ago, our local newspaper reported a new study about this in
England--without reporting what success--and if so how it was being
obtained, in treating this.  The article didn't have enough information to
even locate the doctors connected with it, and the reporter turned out to
have simply lifted the item from Reuters without any further follow-up.
(Not one of the paper's better performances.)  I looked for some additional
information about this through the U.S.groups and the AOL search, but never
found it.

Any suggestions of a specific group (especially non-U.S.) that I might
contact, that anyone knows of that has some real credibility and an
extensive list of subjects?  Even better (but less likely) has anyone seen
this illness under any of its names covered in a credible group, especially
one that he or she himself/herself trusts?



On the lighter side: yes, I know that it seems incongruous that I would have
a stress-aggravated illness and argue with Sam and Joe--but for me, you see,
that is really less stressful than what I was doing before.  I'm not face to
face with them in a wild political convention, central committee or board of
directors meetings, or on the opposite side of a major fight in which any of
us has stakes of great wealth, power, or control over anyone's life or death.
  Sam, Andras and Doug, do have some very good postings and stimulate my
mind and give me often valid and wonderful challenges.  I really appreciate
Sam's mention of the Ruhlen book in our discussion thread on Sumerians,
Hungarians, etc..  I'm going to see if I can find that one this week and
some others, also.  Of course this means I also have to figure out where I'm
going to put the next new bookcase, since I never seem to be able to buy
just one book, at a time...  (Hmmm, I wonder if I can enlarge the opening to
the attic and build a retractable staircase through my closet...  Naaah, my
husband would probably then accidentally use the bookcase--or yours
truly--as the 80m antenna, some day.)

  At least by engaging in mostly mild polemics on an internet discussion
group, I (or my husband--who will respond, if I don't) no longer send my
endocrinologist's eyebrows to the ceiling when he asks me questions about
what I've been doing since the last visit that might aggravate or reduce
stress; and I don't have friends insisting I take up shooting bullets, or
practice race-car driving some more, for self-defense.  (Formula 1 quarter-
racers, multi-curve track for testing speed combined with control--and while
I'm in the top 10% of the track, there's still 7 or 8% faster than I am...)

;-)

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 05:13 PM 3/3/96 -0500, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>Here is where we disagree. If I don't like my bank, I can switch to another
>one.

But it will still be a bank.  All I was trying to do was to answer your
question about who gets better pay and benefits - the employer or the
employee.  You can change your bank as often as you like but the president
will still make more money than you or I.

>If I don't like the services I get from the government, if I am lucky I
>can elect another government that may change the laws that protect those
>who provide the lousy service. Chances are this will not happen because the
>providers of the lousy service (and their labor unions) have such well
>organized lobbies.

Have you ever noticed that the wealthiest nations in the world have strong
and independent labour unions?  If you don't like the strength of labour
unions perhaps you might consider Haiti as a place to live.  They don't have
unions there and I'm sure the service is exceptional.

>I assume you are a civil servant. No one stopped you from becoming a bank
>president or a major stock holder. You made a choice.

Everyone who works at a Canadian university is a public sector worker.

Since you are opposed to the public sector are you in favour of user fees?
Do you think only those parents with school aged children should pay for
their education?

>We employ civil servants (pay their salaries). We buy from others (banks,
>etc.), or use them as consultants. Even the IRS considers the two
>categories very differently.

So, do you think that the money in the bank is owed by the bank president?
No.  Of course not.  We, the users of the bank, still pay the salaries of
the presidents, etc., regardless of how the IRS sees it.  Besides, who do
you think made up the laws, rules, and regulations?  It sure wasn't me.  I
can't buy politicians to do my dirty work.  Bank presidents can!!  And do!!!

Joe Szalai

This little series on Sub Carpathia was written by Kota Gyorgy.
Kota Gyorgy was born in 1967 in Beregszasz, USSR (Ukraine).
He graduated from the University of Uzhgorod in 1993 with a
degree in English language and literature. Since then, he is a
student of law at the Janus Pannonius University of Sciences in
Pecs, Hungary. He is also doing research for his thesis on
international means of minority rights protection at the
Hungarian Human Rights Foundation.



H U N G A R I A N S  I N  T H E  U K R A I N E
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub-Carpathia, today the most western part of the Ukraine, comprises a small
lowland area which is home to more than 155,000 Hungarians, whose ancestors
arrived in the Carpathian Basin in 896 and organized the first state on this
territory. The forested mountains intially served as a border zone, providing a
natural defense from the attacks coming from the East, thus giving a
possibility of relatively uninterrupted growing and development to the young
state.

HISTORY

Colonization of Sub-Carpathia by Slavs from the Ukrainian territories lasted
from the 4th through the 19th centuries.

The present conditions and prospects of the Hungarian national community in
Sub-Carpathia can best be depicted in a historical context, especially in the
light of the historical events of the 20th century. We would like provide a
short outline of those events and circumstances that have contributed to the
current issues of the Hungarians of Sub-Carpathia.

The ethnic composition of the region has changed significantly since 1919, when
under the terms of the Treaty of Trianon Hungary lost two thirds of its
territory and almost 30 percent of the population. The North-Eastern region of
the country was ceded to the new state of Czechoslovakia and was renamed
Sub-Carpathian Rus.

The Vienna Court of Arbitration decided that the territory inhabited by ethnic
Hungarians to be ceded to Hungary. In March 1939, after the fall of
Czechoslovakia, the entire region of Sub-Carpathia was returned to Hungary.

In 1944 the Red Army occupied the region. Almost 40,000 people, mostly ethnic
Hungarian men, were deported to other areas of the Soviet Union. An estimated
3,000 of these people died in labor camps. In June, 1945 Sub-Carpathia was
ceded to the USSR at Stalin's request and in January, 1946 in became the
Transcarpathian Region of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

During the Stalin, Brezhnev and Gorbachev eras Sub-Carpathia was one of the
most conservative regions in the Ukrainian SSR. For decades, all minorities
were subjected to a policy of Sovietization, and Russian was the predominant
language. National minorities were not granted the right to establish interest
representing organizations or cultural institutions independent of the state.

Despite the cultural and educational restrictions placed on ethnic Hungarians,
their assimilation was only partially successful and failed completely in the
countryside. Nevertheless, due to the settlement of Ukrainians and Russians
moany Hungarian townships lost their Hungarian majority. Thus as the
liberalization policies initiated under Gorbachev's peristroika took hold, the
various national communities began renewed attempts to organize themselves and
establish interest representation. Though Ukraine declared its soveriegnty  on
August 24, 1991, the process of economic and political transition continues to
gather momentum. The Hungarian community's chances for obtaining cultural
autonomy have not increased; rather, the declaration of independence of a un
itary Ukrainian state has hindered the Hungarian community's autonomy's plans.


<<<END>>>

Dear Jozsi, et al;

At 10:29 AM 3/4/96 +1000, you wrote:
>Jozsi Udvarhelyi Hill wrote:
>
>> I love baking my own bread and I would like to build a brick oven
>> (kemence) in my back yard. Does anybody have one of these wonderful
>> facilities or knows how to build one?
>> Any suggestion will be appreciated.
>
>Sorry, I cannot offer a blueprint for a backyard oven.  I think, however,
>that you need not seek it only among Hungarians.  There may be more source
>material about Italian peasant ovens in your library and they would do the
>job just as well.  Obviously, a specialized pizza oven would not do, as it
>may not be tall enough inside and may not have a door.
>
>Just a minor correction: your subject, BUBOS KEMENCE, refers to an oven
>that used to be *inside* the house, not outside.  Hence, I would expect its
>design to be different from something that was built outside.
>
Don't know where you live (country) or what you can access in terms of
libraries, through your internet connections, but an outdoor oven similar in
shape, and certainly in function, is still in use among Pueblo peoples in
Arizona and New Mexico, particularly the Hopi.  I remember seeing a diagram
and description of these ovens many years ago in some archeological article
discussing the continuity of ancient Native American practices, among the
Southwestern Native Americans, but it was a very long time ago.  I think the
"whole earth catalogue" might have something like this in it, also, for
those who have a recent annual edition?  The "Green Pages" doesn't have it,
or any reference to it (I just checked), neither do any of the outdoor
building books in my collections.

In one nearly 40 year old book, _The National Geographic's: Indians of the
Americas_, there were some pictures and a limited description of the
Hopi-style ovens (I think the picture was taken at Acoma), but that book is
no longer found in many libraries, I learned some time ago.  I don't have a
copy of the first National Geographic book. My father did, but he's on a
cruise until the end of April.  The 1974 National Geographic book, _The
World of the American Indian_ is not as extensive as the earlier book, and
does not have anything helpful about the baking practices and ovens, other
than to say they made a type of flat bread called "piki."

I had some information about some Spanish style "ovens," called "hornitos",
but re-examination of that was for ovens for converting crushed limestone to
lime for cement, making charcoal, or refining ores into crude metals--not
for baking bread, it seems.

One caveat, they are probably not as "green" as some people would wish.  The
pueblo peoples are now believed to have largely caused their own demise in
the 4 corners are by "overconsumption of energy resources--wood for fuel,
faster than it could be renewed.  (There was a very good article in
"Archeology" magazine about this a few years ago.)  The outdoor Pueblo ovens
were primarily fueled by wood.  The chimneys and insides were also
undoubtedly not of the type that would merit an EPA rating for efficiency
and minimal pollution, today, and would be subject to burning bans in some
areas of the U.S. at certain times of the year, now.  It may be that is why
none of my newer outdoor building books have any projects that burn anything
in them.

Sincerely and respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Sam Stowe wrote:

>the central question. Hungary's options during the Second World War were
>indeed crummy ones. But many Hungarians, including the ones who wound up
>running the country throughout much of the war, took the more morally
>compromising of the available options. Many others, of course, did not.

Thank you first of all not to consider all hungarians guilty. You would not
have been PC anyway (:-)) and probably you don't make such mistakes. But what
does this 'morally compromising' mean? Why do you think those 'many hungarians'
took the morally compromising option? Which one was more 'morally compromising'
for the Finns (for example), try to get back their lost territory (and
population) from Russia with German help or simple write down the losses and be
quite? Or for the Lithuanians (Estonians,Latvians), fighting on the side of
the Germans against Russia or simple accept their bad luck? Gaining territory
with the help of the axis powers was morally compromising for Hungary but not
for Russia (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact), at least it was not a problem in Jalta
or Potsdam. Maybe there is a correlation between the strength of a country and
what is 'morally acceptable' for her. I think this approach to study the
History of smaller countries (not only Hungary) is misleading, these countries
sometimes cannot afford to pick their option based on morality.

>By the way, I ran across something recently that I'll toss out for your
>comment. In Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points, Nos. X and XI state: "The
>peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see
>safe-guarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity of
>autonomous development." (No. 10) and "Rumania, Serbia and Montenegro
>should be evacuated; occupied territories restored...and the relations of
>the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel
>along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and
>international guarantees of the political and economic independence and
>territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered
>into." (No. XI)
>
>The official American interpretation of the Fourteen Points used by the
>American negotiators at Versailles had this to say about No. X: "This
>proposition no longer holds...The independence of Slovakia means the
>dismemberment of the northwestern countries of Hungary...Transylvania --
>Will undoubtedly join Roumania, but provision must be made for the
>protection of the Magyars, Szeklers and Germans who constitute a large
>majority. Hungary -- Now independent and very democratic in form, but
>governed by Magyars whose aim is to prevent the detachment of territory of
>nationalities on the fringe."
>
>It obviously would have been much to Hungary's benefit, then and now, if
>the American negotiators had stuck to the spirit and intent of the
>Fourteen Points. By forfeiting in advance the principle of
>self-determination for Hungarian communities in what wound up as Slovakian
>or Romanian territory, they did much to create the problem which plagues
>Hungary to this day. This was not one of my nation's finer moments nor was
>it much of a victory for realpolitik over the more moralistic strain of
>foreign policy implicit in the Fourteen Points.

What should I say? 'Ha a nagyanyamnak kereke, meg fogantyuja lett volna,
talicska lett volna.' There are no 'if'-s in History.

Janos

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This year we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956. On this occasion I would like to share with the members
of the Hungarian discussion group the result of my latest research. Here is
part 1.



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The Hungarian Refugee Student Movement of 1956-57 and Canada1
A country's brain drain usually benefits other countries. Such was
Hungary's case in 1956.  According to a contemporary report based on police
records over 3,200 university and college students, 11.2% of this number,
left Hungary permanently as a direct consequence of the Hungarian
revolution of 1956.2 This report, however, is based on a count of 90% of
the Hungarians who escaped from Hungary and only on those refugees whose
departure was reported to the police. If the proportion of students was the
same in the unaccounted part of the refugee group, based on the quoted
Hungarian Central Statistical Bureau (K.S.H.) report, about 3550 university
students than the previous year may have reached the West. However, another
publication of the K.S.H. paints a different picture.3  According to the
K.S.H.'s 1958 Yearbook,  7,900 fewer students had registered at Hungarian
universities in September 1957. Their numbers declined from 40,800 to
32,900. The day-student population declined by 4,900, from 28,900 to
24,000. This decline  was not entirely due to emigration. Some students
were arrested and imprisoned or expelled for revolutionary activities. The
base was reduced when a large number of high school graduates emigrated and
quite a few 18-year olds, many of them eager to avoid the draft, emigrated.
The majority of those who did not appear on the 1957/58 university student
roll in Hungary, however, left the country and hoped to continue their
studies abroad. It is possible that 1,500 day students who stayed behind
discontinued their studies. In that case these two K.S.H. reports do not
contradict each other.  On the other hand, in January 1957, the
Coordinating Committee for International Help to Hungarian Refugee
Students, received a report from the World University Service that 1,800
students had left Austria each with a scholarship or the prospect of a
scholarship while 3,000 students  were awaiting placement.4 The Canadian
ambassador reported from Vienna that between November 1956 and April 1957
the World University Service registered approximately 6,800 Hungarian
refugee students in Austria.5 In Yugoslavia an additional 1,326 students
were enumerated.6 The total now was 8,126. The Congress of Free Hungarian
Students in Paris compiled a catalogue of 7,948 registered Hungarian
refugee university students who left Hungary in 1956 or 1957. The
definition of the term "post-secondary student" accounts for the
discrepancy between the K.S.H. and the Austrian data.

        The refugee students were not all regular university students. Many  we
r
 e
evening or correspondence  university or college students,  high school
students, or postgraduates. A few were dropouts, expelled students,
individuals who pretended to be students in order to get better treatment
in the West, and young non-Hungarian refugees from other communist
countries who escaped to Austria  by way of Hungary. All were placed on the
student university lists, if requested, in collusion with the enumerators.
No papers were demanded.7 There were also a few unregistered students who
were never listed because they left Austria quickly and emigrated with the
help of friends or relatives and found jobs for themselves within or
outside academia. I estimate the bona fide refugee university students to
be around 5,000, that is, one sixth of the total post-secondary student
population. The exact number of student refugees, however, cannot be
established. Certainly, most Western democracies competed for the prized
immigrants and promised aid to help  complete their  studies.  Canada was
one of these countries.

1This project was made possible with financial assistance of
Multiculturalism and Citizenship Canada and the Research Institute for the
Study of the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Budapest.

2 "KSH-jelent=E9s az 1956-os disszid=E1l=E1sr=F3l," [KSH Report about the 19=
56
Defections] Regio   2, No.4 (1991): 174-211; Gyula V=E1rallyay,
"Tanulm=E1ny=FAton" Az emigr=E1ns magyar di=E1kmozgalom  1956 ut=E1n  [On a =
Study
Trip; The Emigr=E9 HungarianStudent Movement after 1956] (Budapest:
Sz=E1zadv=E9g, 1956-os Int=E9zet, 1992):  85.

3Magyar statisztikai zsebk=F6nyv (XVIII. =E9vfolyam) 1958 [Hungarian
Statistical Pocket Book (volume 18) 1958] (K=F6zgazdas=E1gi =E9s Jogi K=F6ny=
vkiad=F3,
Budapest, 1958):  20.


4The Problem of Hungarian Refugees in Austria, submitted by the High
Commissioner, A/AC. 79/49, United Nations, General Assembly, Chief
Executive Committee, Fourth Session, 17 January 1957.

5J.S.Macdonald, Ambassador, Vienna, to the [L.B. Pearson] Secretary of
State for External Affairs, Ottawa, 25 April 1957, National Archives of
Canada (cited hereafter as NAC),Records of the Department of Citizenship
and Immigration: RG 26, 1880-1979 (cited hereafter as RG 26), Int.180, Box
863, File 555-54-562-2, part 2.

6 M.H.Wershof, Permanent Representative, The Permanent Mission of Canada to
the European Office of the United Nations, Geneva, to the Undersecretary of
State, 5 July 1957,  NAC,  Records of the Immigration Branch (RG 76), Box
862, File 555-54-565,Hungarian Refugee-policies, pt. 3.

7Professor Charles Taylor, McGill University, the representative of the
Canadian Students Organization in Vienna in 1956/57, interview, 16 November
1995, Montreal.





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Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada




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At 02:58 PM 3/4/96 -0500, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>However, it would be interesting to learn if the national health programs
>in other countries are _generally_ any better?  If not, how about some
>suggestions for the U.S. as it tries to create a new system that avoids the
>mistakes of previous systems?  If a system is better, what are the means of
>enforcing the standards?  Any checks and balances, oversight boards?  If
>so, who comprises the boards--what percentages of what types of people, >etc.?

The Canadian health care system has faults, and is expensive, but I wouldn't
want to Americanize it.

In Canada, the healthcare programmes are run by the provinces.  However, the
federal government gives the provinces 'transfer payments' that pay for a
significant part of healthcare but the provinces must meet certain national
standards that are set by the federal government.  One national standard is
not to allow provinces to allow 'user fees'.  Recently, one of the provinces
allowed certain clinics to open and charge user fees.  The feds withheld the
transfer payments (which are very significant amounts of money), until the
province complied with the national standard.  All Canadians have unlimited
access to most things medical, without paying fees.  But we do pay taxes!

The Canadian system could be made less expensive by limiting the amount of
money that healthcare professionals make and by reducing the number of
unnecessary or non-medical procedures.  This is easier said than done.  But
if a society values universal healthcare, and doesn't want to be stuck with
bills that it can't pay, then it must be ready to regulate:
a)fees charged by doctors/professionals
b)the number of doctors/professionals
c)the definition of what is and what isn't medically required.

In any case, I would gladly pay higher taxes, if necessary, to have a good
universal healthcare system, than pay lower taxes and have no healthcare.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Tony and Celia Becker
> says:
>
>I've been also wondering how well "alternative health care" (accupuncture,
>herbs, cell salts, chiropractors, hot springs, etc.) are covered by the
>national health care programs outside of  the U.S.

Alternative health care is now possible on the NHS in the UK.

>Now, I know that some readers of this group are also using alternative
>medicine for some purposes and familiar with the netgroups, etc. for this
>subject.  I've been going through some of the groups, also--so far a couple
>of dozen through the usenet and AOL's web crawling.  I've been looking for
>something in particular--even resorted to a few giant search mechanisms, and
>haven't found it yet.  It's possible that it just doesn't exist in the U.S.
>and that's what I've been mostly searching, but that it does somewhere in
>Europe.  So, here goes.
[snip]

I use herbs (as I think was mentioned in San Jose the other week),
particularly for cardiovascular treatment (to good effect, I would like
to add.)

You might try posting to some of the following Usenet ngs if you haven't
already:

alt.healing.xxx
alt.health.xxx
alt.med.xxx
bionet.xxx
misc.health.xxx
and my own favourite, alt.folklore.herbs.

I've picked up quite a few useful tips from people on there. a.f.h is
frequented by a lot of people into the practical empirical use of herbs
without getting bogged down with so-called scientific proofs and the
perennial arguments between official v alternative medicine (which
tend to have more to do with the egos of the protagonists than anything
meaningful), etc. One sometimes just has try something and see if it
works (as you have already done), using a bit of judgment, intuition
and caution, of course.

Hope this gives a lead.

Regards,

George



George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
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