J.Szalai wrote:

>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>
>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>criminals.
>
>What do you think?  Should there be limitations on hunting Nazi war criminals?
>
>Joe Szalai

Unfortunatelly I don't know the the English version of the expression
'elevules'. As far as I know most country has the law that war crimes
never 'evulnek el'. I think this is right, however I disagree with
G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
no difference between them criminals and judges.

I would like to attach one more question to Joe's one. Most probable
everybody heard about the crimes of Stalin and his executors (Berija, etc).
Do you think they should be treated the same way as their nazi
collegues, or not. Should be or should have been a nurnberg-like
trial for these guys or not.
One example, probable everybody knows what Katyn was. Briefly, the NKVD
(the ancestor of the KGB) executed ~10,000 Polish officer captured
during the fall of 1939. This is a typical war crime in my opinion.
I heard once (I cannot support this), that the Poles suspect that the
officer who commanded the execution still alive and live in Moscow.
Also this ~10,000 polish is only a part of the captured Polish prisoner..
A considerable portion of them (~5,000 -- 10,000) is simple missing.
Nobody knows where they are (well I have some idea).

J.Zs

At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, Peter Hidas  wrote:
>
 Americans who settle permanently outside
>the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.

As far as I know this statement is not true. They can vote at the local
American embassy.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 11:16 PM 11/4/96, Aniko Dunford wrote:
 I'm not entirely sure of what you were trying to say,
>really.
>
>Best regards,
>Aniko

1956=anti-totalitarian revolution

I'll explain: you pointed out that Hungarians cooperated with
the system, however unjust and undemocratic it was.
Joe Szalai pointed out, that you are in a similar situation
with your own system. Simple really.


> >I see a lot of unfairness and inequality in our society.  I've yet to see
> >you oppose any of it.  Can I assume that your silence is tacit approval of
> >the way things are?
> >
> >Joe Szalai
>
> Joe,
>
> As a librarian, you are probably a pretty bright fellow.  How can you write
> something as silly as this?  I simply don't know what to make of such
> nonsense.
>
> Ferenc
>

>         Now, when it comes to your other point--a very typical one given
> your political views--I disagree. The corruption in Eastern Europe is much,
> much greater and much much more pervasive than in Western Europe. And, I am
> afraid, the real culprit in this, at least in Hungary, the existing
> socialist regime you so often defend.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>


Eastern Europe hasn't got the experience in hiding the dirty business
so well - or the  cosyness with the media not so well established?

The existing socialist regime I so often defend???  You mean the pre
1989 lot?  I usually point out, that it was not all that different in
lots of respect from the west, and it had a few good points grossly
overlooked and sadly destroyed - sesulting in nostalgia and
re-election of anything with socialist in the name.  But it had to
go, I do not defend it as such.

> Status:
>
> At 04:14 PM 11/1/96 +0000, you wrote:
> >Or the fact, that the flight costs more from
> >the UK in all seasons than that price quoted from N.Y.
> >, and even more
> >on the train. International train-travel is now
> >a luxury in Europe.
> 
> >
> >
> Perhaps if European airlines and trains were privatized and they would be
> forced to compete for passengers, their fares would be lower, too.
>

I don't quite understand this, I thought there was a bloody
competition between airlines, whether privatised or not, for years.

Don't talk about train privatisation - a look at the chopped and
totally chaotic railways here couldn't be a bigger mess.



> BTW, there was a recent article in The Economist about the crisis European
> railroads are about to face.  Government subsidies are becoming larger and
> larger, forcing the same governments to look again...
>
>
> Charlie Vamossy

Well, yes. The prosperity of the Great Recoveries is not robust enough
 to provide that cheap energy/transport/communication that
was provided by all of us for the boost of private industries in those glorious
50s/60s.



>

>
> >         Now, when it comes to your other point--a very typical one given
> > your political views--I disagree. The corruption in Eastern Europe is much,
> > much greater and much much more pervasive than in Western Europe. And, I am
> > afraid, the real culprit in this, at least in Hungary, the existing
> > socialist regime you so often defend.
> >
> >         Eva Balogh
> >
Eva Durant replied:
>
> Eastern Europe hasn't got the experience in hiding the dirty business
> so well - or the  cosyness with the media not so well established?

I tend to agree that the West can be just as dirty as the East.... but simply
better polished. Just look at what has been going on in Belgium and the
organization of protests needed just to make some change... Not to mention
Italy and tarantopoly.

Mark H

At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:
>At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
>>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
>
>Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
>be a citizen to vote.
>Can non-citizens vote in the USA? Americans who settle permanently outside
>the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.

        Peter, I think, you are wrong. You *are* a Hungarian citizen, unless
you officially asked the Hungarian government to be released. Most
Hungarians living abroad didn't do that. You could carry a Hungarian
passport, if you wished so. Not only you, but your children and
grandchildren would also be eligible even if they were born outside of the
country. And one more thing, taxpaying has nothing to do with the right to vote
.

        Eva Balogh

--
Denes Bogsanyi ATRACI
133 Osburn Drive
Macgregor 2615
Australia

Joe Szalai > wrote in article
>...
> The following article was in the Record today.
> --------------------
>
> 2 more war crimes suspects identified
>
> Documents filed Thursday in Federal Court identify the elderly men as
> Ladislaus Csizsik-Csatary, 82, and Vladimir Katriuk, 75.  Katriuk lives
in
> the Montreal area and Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto from
Montreal.
>    --- Csizsik-Csatary was a member of the Royal Hungarian Police and in
> 1944 was involved in the internment and deportation to concentration
camps
> of thousands of local Jews in what is now the Slovak Republic.
> Csizsik-Csatary's lawyer said in a letter filed in court that
> Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto because his wife is ill and he
> wants "the security of residing close to his family."
>
> The men are the seventh and eigth suspected Nazi war criminals Ottawa has
> started court action against in the past two years, though none of the
cases
> has yet been completed.
> Joe Szalai
>
I would be very interested to find out more details concerning Ladislaus
Csiszik-Csatary and his connection with the Royal Hungarian Police. What
rank and what position did he hold in the critical years? It is important
that these men not be hounded just because they were sent to carry out an
unpleasant job under threat of dire consequences if they did not. Based on
his age he would probably have been a very junior rank and with very little
power to influence the course of events.

In article
>,
 says...
>
><SNIP>
>
>On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, DANUBE wrote:
><SNIP>
>> >--------------
>> Bravo Lajos!
>>
>>    The way I see it, only Hungarian citizens living in Hungary or
being
>> on temporary assignement abroad should be eligible to vote in
elections
>> in Hungary. There shouldn't even be a debate about this. Period!!!
>>
>>    Amos J. Danube
>>    Enjoying the sunshine in Florida, for good -
>>
>+++++++ Dear Mr. Danube:
>
>What you say makes NO sense at all. What if you went to say the Bahamas
>on Vacation during the elections and your right to vote as a citizen
>would be abrogated by that simple fact?? Silly iin't it???
>Peter Soltesz

I don't know about the US, but in Canada we can vote early if we know we
would be out of the country during election time.   Agnes

At 10:30 PM 11/4/96 -0500, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:

>Dear Joe!
>
>You were challenging Ferenc Novak to show his postings expressing social
>concerns. This made me think, how would I answer such a question. I
>consider myself a concerned individual, I see and hear a lot things, which
>I condemn and would like express my disapproval, but very seldom feel that
>expressing it in this or any other public forum is justified, and possible
>do more harm than good.

I can't see that, Barna.  Dialogue and debate are essential for a healthy
society.

>Let's take a few examples. In the Globe and Mail the paper's foreign
>correspondent Adam Lebor wrote an article from Budapest: "Xenophobes give
>Hungary's reputation a black eye" [Oct. 14, 1996]. He supported his
>argument with an incident, when he was in bar with his friend, and a
>Hungarian bully beat up his friend, supposedly because they were speaking in
>English. I think this is terrible, if it is true the way he described it.
>Still I do not think he was justified writing an article about Hungary's
>reputation on the basis of this incident.

The media loves to sensationalize incidents.  I think that's reason enough
for ordinary people to thrash out social issues in public.  Besides, the
outcome of debates will affect you and me just as much as the editors of the
newspapers.  It's only their game if we give it to them.

>Here is an other example. In the Hungarian papers we often read dramatic
>stories about the poverty in Hungary. This is viewed by some people as
>shameless extremist demagoguery. So may be we should not talk about these
>extreme cases, without putting these incidents in proper perspective.

Once again, I think you're allowing the newspapers to set the agenda.

>The problem is, that very few people can put these incidents in proper
>perspective. There is no data, nobody is monitoring these social injustices
>carefully. The statistical yearbooks are very vague on these.

Indeed they are.  Also, let's not forget that social attitudes and laws
change but they are not immediatly reflected in statistics.  One example I
can think of is domestic violence.  Not very long ago it was "OK" for a man
to beat his wife.  Since no problem was perceived, no statistics were kept.
Attitudes have changed and now statistics are kept on domestic violence.

>I can recall only one such study. A Jewish organization keeps track of
>every anti-Semitic incidents in Canada. I heard them quoting yearly data,
>classified into different type manifestation of anti-Semitism.
>Unfortunately I don't have a reference to it, but this is what I would like
>to see collected and regularly published in many areas of social
>activities.

I think you're right.  I think the B'nai B'rith keeps statistics on
anti-Semitic incidents.  Also, in Toronto, the police have recently started
collecting data on violence against gays and native Canadians.

>You as a Librarian may know if such publication exist. Racism,
>homophobia, xenophobia, violence of various types, poverty, unemployment,
>economic crimes, distribution of wealth, all should be carefully measured,
>so we may spot dangerous trends before some crisis develops. I know it is
>difficult to do, but we should try it. If we can figure out what motivated
>Hunyadi Laszlo in the 15th century, this should be a cinch.

Your suggestion is OK, but why wait for statistics?  Surely one's moral
philosophy should be sufficient.  If you think that certain phobias or
violence are wrong, then you should say so.  For me, one injustice or act of
violence is too much.  Waiting for statistics may prove to be too late to
diffuse dangerous trends.

By the way, the United States Congress has required the Justice Department
to gather statistics on hate crimes since 1991.  The 1995 figures were
released yesterday and the numbers show that 61 percent of hate crimes was
racial bias.  Some 16 per cent was religious bias, 13 per cent was sexual
orientation bias, and 10 per cent was ethnic or national origin biases.

I may not have convinced you, Barna, but if you keep debating then I'll
consider that I've achieved a partial victory.  But don't worry.  I won't be
too smug about it.

Joe Szalai

At 03:19 PM 11/5/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

<snip>
>I agree with Eva's last but important statement. Let me state again..even
>if one pays ZERO taxes, they should have the right to vote if they are
>citizens.
>Peter Soltesz

No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.

Joe Szalai

At 10:27 AM 11/5/96 GMT, Denes Bogsanyi wrote:

<snip>
>I would be very interested to find out more details concerning Ladislaus
>Csiszik-Csatary and his connection with the Royal Hungarian Police. What
>rank and what position did he hold in the critical years? It is important
>that these men not be hounded just because they were sent to carry out an
>unpleasant job under threat of dire consequences if they did not. Based on
>his age he would probably have been a very junior rank and with very little
>power to influence the course of events.

I don't know any more details except for those that were in the paper.  All
I can hope for is that Csiszik-Csatary is treated properly.  Under Canadian
law he is innocent until proven guilty.

Joe Szalai

At 01:49 AM 11/5/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

<snip>
>I would like to attach one more question to Joe's one. Most probable
>everybody heard about the crimes of Stalin and his executors (Berija, etc).
>Do you think they should be treated the same way as their nazi
>collegues, or not. Should be or should have been a nurnberg-like
>trial for these guys or not.
>One example, probable everybody knows what Katyn was. Briefly, the NKVD
>(the ancestor of the KGB) executed ~10,000 Polish officer captured
>during the fall of 1939. This is a typical war crime in my opinion.
>I heard once (I cannot support this), that the Poles suspect that the
>officer who commanded the execution still alive and live in Moscow.
>Also this ~10,000 polish is only a part of the captured Polish prisoner..
>A considerable portion of them (~5,000 -- 10,000) is simple missing.
>Nobody knows where they are (well I have some idea).

I think one problem with your suggestion is that those events happened
during the war and, like it or not, Russia was on the winning side.  Winners
have never been charged with war crimes.  Sometimes even losers, when
they're big and powerful, such as the Americans in Viet Nam, are not charged
either.  And I suspect that there were more war criminals in Viet Nam than
Lt. William L. Calley Jr. in My Lai.  But who's going to investigate now?

Joe Szalai

Does anyone have an electronic dictionary of Hungarian words ?
Ideally suitable for MS Word.
Jeno.

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, Peter Hidas  wrote:
> >
>  Americans who settle permanently outside
> >the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
>
> As far as I know this statement is not true. They can vote at the local
> American embassy.
+++++++++ OR get an absentee ballot and mail it in to the embassy or the
USA voting ditrict
Peter Soltesz

Dear Aniko,et al.

On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Aniko Dunford wrote:

> Hi Peter (Hidas) ... just to make sure!!!
>
> At 10:25 PM 04/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> > Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
> >>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
> >
> >Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
> >be a citizen to vote.
> Yes, yes and am.
> ++++++++++ As long as you are a citizen of Hungary then you should be
able to vote in its elections. Period.

> >Can non-citizens vote in the USA?
> Ha?
+++++++Of course not...who said anything aout that?

> >Americans who settle permanently outside
> >the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
> Think such.
+++++++Wrong again... All US citizens regardless of where they live CAN
and DO vote!

>
> Still I agree with Amos ... big time ( as would my kiddos say)  and now, as
> for Peter Soltesz ... "Real democracy in Hungary" - am sure was a typo... he
> *must* have meant to write "Real Dictatorship" as deducing from his past
> many many posts... yes?

+++++++++ NO...you can agree all you like, the issue is simple (see above)

> Best regards,
++ditto
> Aniko
> ++
Peter

On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:

> >Teljesen igaza van a Vamossy Karcsinak, es azoknak akok mart reg ota
> >kerek a Magyar kormanyt arra hogy engedjek meg a Magyaroknak akik
> >kulfoldon eloknek hogy szavazanak kulfoldon. Amint a Karcsi modja tobb
> >orszag megengedi, sot pozitivan segit erre a lehetosegre.
> >Modjuk hogy Amerikaban minden konzulatusnal es Washingtonban is lehetne
> >ezt elintezni es nagyon konnyen. Persze rengeteg Magyar nem fizikailag
> >van Magyarorszagon es igy -- es csak is igy -- tudja ez a jelenlegi
> >kormany fenntartani a hatalmat.  Szegyeljek magukat, de latom hogy mar
> >nincs bor a pofajukon azert nem torodnek vele.
> >Nem Magyarorszagon korul forog a vilag!
> >
>
> Egy nagy kulonbseg azert van: azok a romanok szavazhatnak kulfoldon, akik
> roman allampolgarok. Es nem a vilag minden orszagaban. Nem tudom,
> Magyarorszagon kivul meg melyik orszagban volt tobb olyan hely ahol a roman
> allampolgarok leadhadtak szavazataikat. Pl. Washingtonban szavazhattak az
> ott tartozkodo romanok?
++++++++++++++++ IGEN IS LEHET NEKIK SZAVAZNI ITT AZ USABAN IS!
>
> Viszont szerintem az sem igazsagos, hogy olyanok dontsenek pl. a magyar
> belpolitikarol, akik evtizedek ota nem jartak Magyarorszagon (es a kozeli
> jovoben sem fognak). Elhiszem, hogy az USA-ban, Kanadaban vagy Ausztraliaban
> elve nzugodt lelekkel valaszthatja meg mindenki azt a partot vagy szemelyt
> aki a legnagyobb hatassal van ra. Aztan a teved, akkor o biztonsagban van,
> csak a sok kis buta otthon maradt magyar szenvedi el a kovetkezmenyeket. Ez
> tipikus peldaja annak, amit ugy mondanak: mas farkaval verni a csalant ...
>
> Szoval ezzel kapcsolatban nekem az a szemelyes velemenyem, hogy egy kormanyt
> - legyen az barmely orszag kormanya - azok valasszak meg, akik abban az
> orszagban elnek. Ha a tobbseg rosszul dont, akkor viselje is el a
> kovetkezmenyeit. De senki ne kiabaljon be a "palya szelerol". Magyarorszag
> eseten mar csak azert is igazsagtalan volna ez, mert a 15-20 millio
> magyarbol *csak* 9-10 millio el Magyarorszagon. Ebben az esetben meg az is
> elofordulhatna, hogy olyan kormany kerulne hatalomra Magyarorszagon, akikre
> egyetlen itthon elo allampolgar sem szavazott! Ehhez tegyuk hozza, hogy volt
> olyan terv is, hogy mindenki szavazhat, aki "magyarnak vallja magat" (tehat
> elvileg egy San  Francisco-i kinai is, felteve hogy tud annyit mondani hogy
> "magyar vagyok" :-).
>
+++++++++++ >dE GARANTALOM HOGY VAN SOK OLYAN 'IDEGEN" MAGYAR AKINEK
MEG MOST IS MEGVAN A MAGYAR ALLAMPOLGARSAGA ES NEKIK KELLENE (SZABADON)
VALASZTANI A MAGYARORSZAGI SZAVAZASOKBAN.
Itt az USAban pedig azt is lehet hogy ha en mint egy allampolgar
ki-utazok az orszagbol, hogy en az idegen orszagbol is szavazhatok
(levelben).  Mikor minden megvan ahoz hogy szavazzon az ember akkor adnak
egy szelvenyt amit bizonyos ido mulva be kell kuldeni a postan (ha
kulfodon jar akkor tobb idot adnak) de megvan hogy a posta belyegi
datumot hasznaljak es mikor a level megerkezik akkor a szavazatot
felszamoljak!

Miert nem lehet ezt megcsinalni a Magyar allampolgaroknak??
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 > In english (short) >
> There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
> in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
> possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
> could vote?
>
> In my opinion it isn't fair to decide about hungarian politics from abroad.
> If you live in the USA, Canada or Australia you can easily vote for a person
> or party which has a biggest impression on you. And if you choose badly you
> don't have to live with your choice, you are away and safe, only those
> little poor hungarians at home have to suffer.
>

++++++ Well that is perhaps a different issue.. I suppose you are
indicating that with the current government (or the way things are) one
has to be afraid of whom you vote for ?????

> So on this question my personal view is this: a government - government of
> any country - should be elected by the people living in that country. If the
> majority of the nation makes a mistake then they have to live with their
 choice.
>
>
++++
If one is a legal; citizen of a country, then what difference does it make
where he is physicaly located??? Do you have a problem with that?
--If you do -- sorry I see no reason for it.

Regards,
Peter Soltesz

Fa'bi'an (Fabian) is also used as first name or last names.

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote:

<SNIPPETY>

> Yes, I pay taxes in Hungary (I own property and I pay taxes on it.) Yes, I
> carry a Hungarian passport. Yes, I am a citizen of Hungary.
>
> No, non citizens can not vote in the US. Yes,  American citizens who settle
> permanently outside the USA can and do vote, unless they formally give up
> their citizenship.
>
While I agree with Charles Vamossy, I see an implication that I do not
agree with.
Namely, that of the necessity of being a property owner and tax payer.
While that is nice and amplifies his point it is not a req2uirement nor
should it be...provided that he is acitizen of Hungary. PERIOD>
Peter Soltesz

On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:
> >At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> > Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
> >>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
> >
> >Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
> >be a citizen to vote.
> >Can non-citizens vote in the USA? Americans who settle permanently outside
> >the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.


+++ I asuume that you mean Mr., Hidas Eva....
>
>         Peter, I think, you are wrong. You *are* a Hungarian citizen, unless
> you officially asked the Hungarian government to be released. Most
> Hungarians living abroad didn't do that. You could carry a Hungarian
> passport, if you wished so. Not only you, but your children and
> grandchildren would also be eligible even if they were born outside of the
> country. And one more thing, taxpaying has nothing to do with the right to
 vote.


++++ In fact there are many countries that define a citizen as any
child(ren) of a ctizen (no matter where they were born!!!).
For example, Belgium...many a young man was surprised that they were
drafted into the army in a country that they were NOT born in (and were
citizens also of other countries - like the USA, etc.)

I agree with Eva's last but important statement. Let me state again..even
if one pays ZERO taxes, they should have the right to vote if they are
citizens.
Peter Soltesz

<SNIP>

On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, DANUBE wrote:
<SNIP>
> >--------------
> Bravo Lajos!
>
>    The way I see it, only Hungarian citizens living in Hungary or being
> on temporary assignement abroad should be eligible to vote in elections
> in Hungary. There shouldn't even be a debate about this. Period!!!
>
>    Amos J. Danube
>    Enjoying the sunshine in Florida, for good -
>
+++++++ Dear Mr. Danube:

What you say makes NO sense at all. What if you went to say the Bahamas
on Vacation during the elections and your right to vote as a citizen
would be abrogated by that simple fact?? Silly iin't it???
Peter Soltesz

Dear Mr. Hidas, et al.

Perhaps you miss the point of the posting.
Here are some facts:
1- Anyone of Romanian citixenship (including Hungarians)
CAN vote outside Romania -- namely in the USA at any Romanian Consulate!

There is NO such mechanism for HUNGARIAN Citizens [ that is the only one
I was talking about!!!!] CANNOT vote UNLESS they are in Hungary!
This is unacceptable.

Perhaps next time you might want to read the posting before jumping.
Peter Soltesz

On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

> At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>  Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
> >for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
>
> Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
> be a citizen to vote.
> Can non-citizens vote in the USA? Americans who settle permanently outside
> the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
>

Agnes had some difficulty sending the list the following. I am sending it on
to the list on her behalf:

Yesterday I saw Elmer Gantry again on Bravo - our commercial-free movie
TV.  I saw it first when it came out, in 1960.  I liked it very much
then, although I didn't understand half of it.  I saw it with Spanish
subtitles and neither my Spanish nor my English was up to understanding
the nuances of the language.  I was also very unfamiliar with
North American society.

Yesterday, after 36 years, I realized the story is timeless.  The Elmer
Gantrys are still with us.  And the reason I am posting this here is that
they were intruding this list too - I am just sharing my feelings with
you guys and girls.

Agnes

At 11:30 PM 11/4/96 +0100, you wrote:
>
>Egy nagy kulonbseg azert van: azok a romanok szavazhatnak kulfoldon, akik
>roman allampolgarok. Es nem a vilag minden orszagaban. Nem tudom,
>Magyarorszagon kivul meg melyik orszagban volt tobb olyan hely ahol a roman
>allampolgarok leadhadtak szavazataikat. Pl. Washingtonban szavazhattak az
>ott tartozkodo romanok?

Termeszetesen csak azok szavaznak akik allampolgarok. Akik nem allampolgarok
azok milyen jogon szavazhatnanak.

Termeszetesen a vilag minden orszagaban.  Ha egyszer egy orszag megengedi
hogy allampolgarai szvazhassanak, akkor minden allampolgar, akarhol van
elhet ezzel a joggal.  Gyakorlatilag a legkozelebbi kulugyi kirendeltsegen
voksolhat,  Washingtonban is peldaul.  Ugy latom nem olvashattad eredeti
levelemet, ahol az amerikai cimeket idezem, ime ujbol idezem:

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 15:40:08 -0800
>From: arpad nemes >
>To: 
>Subject: UNICUM: Valasztasok Romaniaban
>
>Kedves Mindenki!
>
>KERLEK ERTESITSETEK AMERIKABAN TARTOZKODO ROMAN ALLAMPOLGARSAGGAL RENDELKEZO
>ERDELYI ISMEROSEITEKET, hogy:
>
>Holnap, november 3-an valasztasok lesznek Romaniaban. A 68/1992-es torveny
ertelmeben
>minden Amerikaban tartozkodo roman allampolgar szavazhat a nagyobb varosokban
>felallitott szavazokorzetekben. Ezek a korzetek a nagykovetseg,
konzulatusok, vagy
>egyhazak gondozasaban a kovetkezo helysegekben talalhatok:
>
>Washington, D.C. 202-232-4749, roman nagykovetseg
>New York, NY 212-689-9120, roman konzulatus
>Los Angeles, CA 310-444-0043, roman konzulatus
>Los Angeles, CA 714-776-1972,
>Los Angeles, CA 213-225-8583
>San Francisco, CA 510-614-9282
>Chicago, IL 312-728-2727
>Detroit, MI 810-795-3325
>Hallandale, FL 954-457-1466
>Portland, OR 503-761-5067
>Boston, MA 617-552-3805
>Cleveland, OH 216-941-5550
>
>A feljogosultak 9 es 17 ora kozott adhatjak le a szavazataikat. Szukseges
igazolo
>iratok: utlevel (ha lejart az sem baj amennyiben az illeto roman
allampolgar) vagy
>szemelyazonossagi igazolvany  vagy szuletesi igazolvany, vagy hajtasi
igazolvany.
>
>Koszonom a segitsegeteket.
>
>nemes arpad
>
>
>

At 05:12 PM 11/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:
>>
>> There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
>> in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
>> possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
>> could vote?
>>
>> In my opinion it isn't fair to decide about hungarian politics from abroad.
>> If you live in the USA, Canada or Australia you can easily vote for a person
>> or party which has a biggest impression on you. And if you choose badly you
>> don't have to live with your choice, you are away and safe, only those
>> little poor hungarians at home have to suffer.
>>
>> So on this question my personal view is this: a government - government of
>> any country - should be elected by the people living in that country. If the
>> majority of the nation makes a mistake then they have to live with their
> choice.
>>--------------
>Bravo Lajos!
>
>   The way I see it, only Hungarian citizens living in Hungary or being
>on temporary assignement abroad should be eligible to vote in elections
>in Hungary.

Hungarian citizens on temporary assignement abroad CAN NOT vote in an
election, unless they travel home and cast their ballot in Hungary.  While
Hungarians in Hungary are able to vote with a version of an absentee ballot
(blue card), they can not vote from abroad.

>There shouldn't even be a debate about this. Period!!!

Why not?  Even if we are denied the right to vote, we can still express our
opinions, as you just have...

>   Amos J. Danube
>   Enjoying the sunshine in Florida, for good -
>
>

At 10:25 PM 11/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
>>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
>
>Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
>be a citizen to vote.
>Can non-citizens vote in the USA? Americans who settle permanently outside
>the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
>
>

Yes, I pay taxes in Hungary (I own property and I pay taxes on it.) Yes, I
carry a Hungarian passport. Yes, I am a citizen of Hungary.

No, non citizens can not vote in the US. Yes,  American citizens who settle
permanently outside the USA can and do vote, unless they formally give up
their citizenship.

At 11:30 PM 11/4/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Viszont szerintem az sem igazsagos, hogy olyanok dontsenek pl. a magyar
>belpolitikarol, akik evtizedek ota nem jartak Magyarorszagon (es a kozeli
>jovoben sem fognak). Elhiszem, hogy az USA-ban, Kanadaban vagy Ausztraliaban
>elve nzugodt lelekkel valaszthatja meg mindenki azt a partot vagy szemelyt
>aki a legnagyobb hatassal van ra. Aztan a teved, akkor o biztonsagban van,
>csak a sok kis buta otthon maradt magyar szenvedi el a kovetkezmenyeket. Ez
>tipikus peldaja annak, amit ugy mondanak: mas farkaval verni a csalant ...
>

Eloszor is osszuk a kulfoldon tartozkodokat ket csoportba:  allandoan es
ideiglenesen kulfodon elokre.

Az ideiglenesen kulfoldon elok, mint diplomatak, diakok, kontrakt munkasok,
stb, akik csak magyar allampolgarsaggal rendelkeznek, Magyarorszagon allando
lakassal rendelkeznek, es ott fizetnek adot, ezek gondolom nem evtizedekig
vannak igy tavol .  De a magyar alkotmany, es a parlament es a kormany
allaspontja szerint ezek NEM szavazhatnak.  Mint mar ideztem Horn Gyula
Miniszterelnok Ur New Yorkban elhangzott szavait, "Uraim.az ut hazafele
mindemkinek nyitva all."  Tehat fogja magat minden diak, ugorjon haza
repulovel egy napra es voksoljon, de ugy hogy egy napot se mulasztjon az
egyetemen.  Ugyanigy, jojjenek haza a vilag minden pontjarol a diplomatak,
az uzletemberek, a turistak.

En szemelyesen sokkal normalisabbnak tartom azt a megoldast, amit a vilag
legtobb orszaga alkalmaz, beleertve nemcsak az USA-t, de Romaniat, sot
Boszniat is, hogy megadja a lehetoseget annak, hogy allampolgarai kulfoldrol
is szavazhatnak.  Az USA-ban ezt "absentee ballot"-nak hivjak.  Mindenki aki
tudja hogy valoszinuleg tavol lesz a szavazas napjan, elore ker es kap egy
szavazolapot, amit postan elkuldhet es ervenyes, ha a legkesobb a szavazas
napjan van lepecsetelve.  Aki huzamosabban tavol van, az a helyi
konzulatuson van szamon tartva, es vagy ott szavaz szemelyesen, vagy oda
kuldi postan a szavazatat.  Erre a megoldasra felkeszulni nincs szukseg
raketa tudosokra, se komputerre, hiszen ez mar joval a komputerek bevezetese
elott igy volt az USA-ban.

Masik, talan kevesbe hathatos, de gyakori megoldas a szemelyes valasztas a
kulugyi kirendeltsegeken, mint peldaul a Roman valasztas.  Itt, New Yorkban,
szinte hetente hallunk valasztasokrol ahol az itt elo kulfoldi allampolgarok
reszt vesznek.  Del-Amerikai, Afrikai, es persze Europai orszagok szavazoit
keresik ujsaghirdetesen, radion, televizion, hogy menjenek es szavazzanak.

Ennyit az "ideiglenesen idegenbe szakadt hazank fiairol -- es lanyairol".

Az allanodoan kulfoldon elokrol en is elismerem, hogy komplikaltabb a
kerdes.  A Miniszterelnok Ur jogos kerdest vet fel azzal, hogy aki nem
adozik az milyen jogon szol hozza a kormanyzashoz.

Mint mar emlitettem, a legtobb orszag, annak ellenere, hogy ok is ertik az
ellenmondast, ugy velik, hogy a szavazojog elkulonithetettlen joga minden
allampolgarnak, kiveve a kiskoruaknak, elmebetegeknek es a buntetett
eloeletueknek.  A demokratikus eletben a reszvetel minden tarsadalom erdeke
es celja, ezzel forrasztja ossze magat az allam az allampolgarokkal.  A
huzmosabban kulfoldon elokkel azok az allamok tartjak a szorosabb
kapcsolatot, akik ugy velik hogy ez az orszagnak hasznos es fontos.  Jo
pelda erre a roppant eros es jol mukodo lengyel-amerikai nepcsoport.  A
lengyel allam mindid szamitott es eppen ezert apolta a lengyel diaszporat.
Ennek a szimboluma mindig is a lengyel allampolgarsag emgerositese volt.
Minden ujszulott lengyel-amerikai megkapta unnepelyesen a lengyel
allampolgarsagi papirt, es amikor elerkeztek a nagykorhoz, reszt vehettek a
allampolgarsagi viszony megerositesen, a szavazason.  Igy minden masodik,
harmadik generacios lengyel is tudja es erzi hogy hova tartozik.  Ennek
fontos es hosszulejaratu elonyei vannak a lengyel allam szamara.  Ezert
hajlandok megadni, sot apolni a szavazojogot, annak ellenere, hogy ok is
tudjak a kulombseget az ott elok es az itt elok kozott.  De ugy erzik, hogy
megeri...



>Szoval ezzel kapcsolatban nekem az a szemelyes velemenyem, hogy egy kormanyt
>- legyen az barmely orszag kormanya - azok valasszak meg, akik abban az
>orszagban elnek. Ha a tobbseg rosszul dont, akkor viselje is el a
>kovetkezmenyeit. De senki ne kiabaljon be a "palya szelerol".

Igazad van abban, hogy senki ne kiabaljon a palya szelerol.  De ugyanakkor
ne legyen senki, aki allampolgar, kirekesztve a palyarol azzal, enyem a
labda, neked pedig kuss...

>Magyarorszag eseten mar csak azert is igazsagtalan volna ez, mert a 15-20
millio
>magyarbol *csak* 9-10 millio el Magyarorszagon.

Nem hiszem hogy a 15 millio mind rendelkezik magyar utlevellel vagy
allampolgarsagi igazolvanyal.  Kulonben a multban voltak felmeresek arrol,
hogy hany ember menne el tenyleg szavazni, es tudomasom szerint kb. 50-100
ezer szavazorol lenne szo vilagszerte.

>Ebben az esetben meg az is elofordulhatna, hogy olyan kormany kerulne
hatalomra Magyarorszagon, akikre
>egyetlen itthon elo allampolgar sem szavazott!

Ez sem szamtanilag, de plane gyakorlatilag nem lehetseges.

>Ehhez tegyuk hozza, hogy volt olyan terv is, hogy mindenki szavazhat, aki
"magyarnak vallja magat" (tehat
>elvileg egy San  Francisco-i kinai is, felteve hogy tud annyit mondani hogy
>"magyar vagyok" :-).
>

 Ne haragudj, de ez mar butasag...   Az allampolgarsag torvenyekkel van
meghatarozva.  Nem hiszem hogy ilyen torveny letezne, ami megadna a San
Franciscoi kinainak az allampolgarsag felvetelet minden mas megkoveteles nelkul
.

Osszefoglava tehat, ugy erzem, hogy a szavazojog biztositasa vagy
megtagadasa kulfoldon elo allapolgarainak szamara tukrozi egy orszag nepenek
akaratat:  apolni kivanja veluk a kotoszallakat, vagy kirekeszteni,
elkuloniteni akarja azokat akiket a mult tortenelmi vagy gazdasagi viharjai
idegenbe sodortak, vagy szuleteseuknel fogva idegenbe talajak magukat.
Tehat ez hozzaallas, joakarat, vagy annak hianya kerdese.

Udv New Yorkbol,

Vamossy Karcsi

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Taxonomy ( 54 sor )
>
> There are many indications that the use of "szabadsagharc" with respect
> to the events of '56 is in ascendancy.
This is quite possible. Public historico-political discourse is hardly
ever characterized by a dispassionate use of terminology.

> Neither the municipal authorities in Nyiregyhaza, nor the editors of MH
> can be characterized as ultrarightists. The fact of the matter is that
> quite frequently now, reference to '56 is made as "nepfelkeles,
> forradalom es szabadsagharc." To some it was a forradalom, but many,
> recalling the attempt to rid their country of a foreign yoke, are more
> comfortable with the expression "szabadsagharc." There is room for both
> interpretations.
Finally, a substantive issue. I agree that national independence, getting
rid of the foreign yoke, was one of the central demands of 56. As I said
many times before, there was a remarkable national consensus on many issues,
and this was certainly one of them. Had there been substantive military
(or paramilitary) opposition, it would have had qualified as a war of
independence on these grounds.

Yesterday we had some pre-election chat at the office at lunchtime, and
someone defended the thesis that Reagan did the right thing (with which I
agreed) and that the Soviet Union was a paper tiger anyway (about which I was
more skeptical). He proceeded to explain that the only time since WWII when
they tried something they failed (in Afghanistan). OK, I said, so how about
Czechoslovakia in 68, or how about Hungary in 56? Yes, but there was no real
fight, no resistance offered, he said, without skipping a beat. This guy is
old enough to remember a great deal about 56 (he was a university student in
Belgium at the time, and followed the events with great interest), and by no
means a left-liberal. Furthermore, his information came from the western media
coverage of the events, not from the Soviet propaganda machine.

Andras Kornai

In article >,
 says...
>
>J.Szalai wrote:
>
>>I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi
war
>>criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail
and
>>that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that
society
>>has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.
>>
>>I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
>>criminals.
>>
>>What do you think?  Should there be limitations on hunting Nazi war
criminals?
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Unfortunatelly I don't know the the English version of the expression
>'elevules'. As far as I know most country has the law that war crimes
>never 'evulnek el'. I think this is right, however I disagree with
>G.Farkas, there should be mercy. We should not treat the war criminals
>in the same manner as they treated their victims. Otherwise there is
>no difference between them criminals and judges.
>
>I would like to attach one more question to Joe's one. Most probable
>everybody heard about the crimes of Stalin and his executors (Berija,
etc).
>Do you think they should be treated the same way as their nazi
>collegues, or not. Should be or should have been a nurnberg-like
>trial for these guys or not.
>One example, probable everybody knows what Katyn was. Briefly, the NKVD
>(the ancestor of the KGB) executed ~10,000 Polish officer captured
>during the fall of 1939. This is a typical war crime in my opinion.
>I heard once (I cannot support this), that the Poles suspect that the
>officer who commanded the execution still alive and live in Moscow.
>Also this ~10,000 polish is only a part of the captured Polish
prisoner..
>A considerable portion of them (~5,000 -- 10,000) is simple missing.
>Nobody knows where they are (well I have some idea).
>
>J.Zs

Everybody who is guilty of these crimes should be tried regardless what
colour shirt or ties they wore.  However, I believe all those former
soviet KGB people are still in the Russian hierarchy, so, who will try
them?

Agnes

At 03:24 PM 11/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote:
>
><SNIPPETY>
>
>> Yes, I pay taxes in Hungary (I own property and I pay taxes on it.) Yes, I
>> carry a Hungarian passport. Yes, I am a citizen of Hungary.
>>
>> No, non citizens can not vote in the US. Yes,  American citizens who settle
>> permanently outside the USA can and do vote, unless they formally give up
>> their citizenship.
>>
>While I agree with Charles Vamossy, I see an implication that I do not
>agree with.
>Namely, that of the necessity of being a property owner and tax payer.
>While that is nice and amplifies his point it is not a req2uirement nor
>should it be...provided that he is acitizen of Hungary. PERIOD>
>Peter Soltesz
>
>
I agree, Peter...  Voting rights in the 1990's should have nothing to do
with property rights.

I was simply illustrating to Peter Hides that even those who pay taxes are
denied voting rights.

Charlie Vamossy