At 02:20 PM 14/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Johanne:

>The answer is so easy, Johanna, that you may be surprised
>to learn it: Joe and Sam has a special mission here on
>this list as far as Hungary and its "general impression"
>(as Eva Balogh uses this expression) in the minds of the
>people of the United States is concerned.
>                                                Sz. Zoli
>
Oh my heavens, ooooh my goodness! ... Zolika is coming on strong again ...
phew...at least, the sermons are not so lenghty!  And, Janka dear, you are
at least, spared a marriage proposal! - lucky, lucky you!

(brrr!! Joe and Sam!!! Shame on you!  You've allowed yourselves to be used
so......  what's next?:-)

Aniko



 >

Dear George EK

The "Tocsik affair" is alien to this here supposedly informed
Internetite...sorry..  care to expand on it? ... please, don't let it be
another "romanians yes, hungarians no" style thread?  And, it'd better be
something positive about the character of the new Hungary! ...for a change?
We're beginning to sound like we don't belong amongst humanity for Pete's sake!


Regards,
Aniko

At 11:03 PM 14/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
>If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions and
>facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new Hungary.
>
>George E. Kantor

>
>

Dear Gabor:

At 05:51 PM 14/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>At 07:21 PM 11/14/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote something called csusztatas
>in Hungarian, I am not sure what the correct english expression is for it.
"side-stepping the issue", or "slipsliding away"(joke-but literal
translation am afraid) "snowballing" come to mind to immediate mind....

>He says:
>
>>        In essentially non-marxist Hungary some minority convinced itself
>>to be marxists in the fifties, then betrayed the 56 Revolution and
>>Independence War, took part in the slaughter of Hungarian non-marxists and
>>even marxists and served their selected Master, the Russian Big Brother.
>>        Later a smaller minority of them lost illusions and became
>>disillusioned marxists. Under the umbrella of their comrades
>>(and fathers and godfathers [who knows the godson of Janos Kadar?])
>>the disillusioned marxists organized the "democratic opposition", and
>>acting obviously against the establishment attracted many non-marxists too
>>(including e.g. myself until 1988, or the "nasty Orban" until 1994).
>
>What I read here is (and please, Gyorgy, tell me if I am wrong), that SZDSZ
>founders were originally active participants in the anti-revolutionary
>activities in 1956 and then took part in the revenge after it. My
>understanding is that this was not true. TGM, one of the founders of the
>SZDSZ was about 7 years old in 1956 (and lived in Romania), some of the
>others were his age, some others were revolutionaries, tried and convicted
>by the Kadar regime. Maybe there were some who fit the above ugly picture,
>but it has to be a very small minority.
>
>And what is wrong with disillusioned marxists joining the opposition? What
>were they supposed to do? Hang themselves?
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>

kadargyorgy wrote:

>         In essentially non-marxist Hungary some minority convinced itself
> to be marxists in the fifties, then betrayed the 56 Revolution and
> Independence War, took part in the slaughter of Hungarian non-marxists and
> even marxists and served their selected Master, the Russian Big Brother.
>         Later a smaller minority of them lost illusions and became
> disillusioned marxists. Under the umbrella of their comrades
> (and fathers and godfathers [who knows the godson of Janos Kadar?])
> the disillusioned marxists organized the "democratic opposition", and
> acting obviously against the establishment attracted many non-marxists too
> (including e.g. myself until 1988, or the "nasty Orban" until 1994).

It has been spelled out sufficiently by others why this section is at the
level of Andersen's tales from the point of view of analytical depth.

>         In the meantime the majority of Hungary before 1989 suffered and
> survived marxism. Then parties were formed. The number of voters of any
> party of any ideological background may vary from time to time from place
> to place.

So continues the serious analysis.

> Incidentally, after four years of a non-marxist but very
> unskilled, untimely gentleman-like, governing coalition,

Here comes the whitewash, with substantial twisting of facts.

Unskilled the then governing coalition certainly was.  More precisely,
they were very skilled in a particular school of Hungarian history
that emphasizes the past injustices suffered by Hungarians at the
expense of anything else.  The latter includes injustices commited
BY Hungarians against other nationalities, the whole of economics
(with the exception of two or three individual politicians), and
modern concepts of the functions, processes and institutional
framework of government.

Gentleman-like is the least relevant or justified description of the
Antall/Boross administrations.  Gentleman-like they were not, they
were merely aping anachronistic gentroid behaviour patterns that
were superficial and outdated even during the Horthy era after which
the new administration wanted to model itself.

Finally, although they were not Marxist, they still preferred the
same authoritarian approach to government as all Marxist administrations:
government knows best and government has to keep its hand on everything.

These together resulted in a country more along the lines of a Lehar
operetta than a modern mixed economy with a parliamentary democracy,
except that there are no roles for neo-nazis in a Lehar operetta.

Fundamental processes in the conversion of the economic and financial
system, initiated under late- and post-Kadarism and revved up by that
the one-year wonder of the caretaker Nemeth government, were not pursued
with vigour.  Legal loopholes and ambiguities allowing the wholesale
insider privatization of the Hungarian economy under their predecessors
were not only not resolved, but fully utilized and extended to serve the
acolytes of the new government.  After this performance they were thrown
out of office by voters hoping for something better.

in 1994 the
> convinced marxists (MSzP) and the disillusioned marxists (SzDSz) had again
> a chance to govern together in Hungary.

Apart from the gross and tendentious inaccuracy of these descriptors,
the disingenousness of your treatise is really proven by the fact is that
these two groups of people never before governed Hungary together.  Too
clever by half.

> It turned out in two years that
> they belong to each other, and they are united, organically joined, and
> are forming the ruling and stealing kleptocracy

Arguably, there was little else to expect from some MSzP politicians.
The resignation of one SzDSz politician in protest, and the well-
publicized debates in the party indicate that your summary condemnation
of that party is not accurate.

However, the more abuse of power by the current administration, the
greater the responsibility of the previous one in not having created a
legal and moral framework in which official corruption can be kept under
control.

> of our little,
> wooden-towered homeland.

Such turns of phrase, however sweet they may sound to some Hungarians
nostalgic for the days of old,  do not translate into other languages.

> Those, who have eyes, can see it, those who have ears, can hear
> it. Are we all nasty?

Either that or merely blind and deaf.

George Antony

 wrote:

>>
>I think I explained in an earlier post that I got it from the history of
>Leopold and Loeb. One of them was stabbed to death in prison, the other
>moved to Puerto Rico as a medical missionary nurse after completing his
>sentence and spent the rest of his life working with the poor.
>
>In order to provoke Joe Szalai into another hissy fit, I should point out
>that I'm an advocate of the death penalty.
>Sam Stowe

Nah, life is too short... we can't wait for him him to have his
epiphany.

Let's see how  can I spin this one: "vengeance is mine, sayeth the
Lord."

Bandi

>
>"You can sum up the entire history of the
>Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
>defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
>-- Joe Queenan

(you need to quit your zingers...you're gonna lose your audience)

Hi, Eva!

With all the conspiracy theories, it's no wonder that people become paranoid!

At 17:42 14/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>        Well, Johanne now you are enlightened by Zoli Szekely:

Yes, I chuckled when I saw this.
>
>
>>The answer is so easy, Johanna, that you may be surprised
>>to learn it: Joe and Sam has a special mission here on
>>this list as far as Hungary and its "general impression"
>>(as Eva Balogh uses this expression) in the minds of the
>>people of the United States is concerned.
>
>        Don't you see: they have been planted on this list to accomplish a
>special mission! Yes, yes! And they are not the only ones planted. I'm sure
>I have been planted too, but for the life of me I don't know who planted me!
>
>        This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
>conspiracy, conspiracy!! The meager opposition to the Kadar regime was, of
>course, also planted--by the government itself. And now in the form of the
>SZDSZ they joined the forces of evil in order to ruin the Hungarian people!
>And, of course, Joe and Sam have been planted too. You didn't get it until
>now? But it is obvious: we all have been planted in order to discredit
>patriotic Hungarians like Zoli Szekely and Janos Zsargo. A cosmopolitan
>conspiracy against the nation.

Hmmmmm, maybe, but . . . don't tar Janos Zsargo with the brush meant for
Zoli Szekely. Just because Zoli makes a comment doesn't mean that he and
Janos are necessarily *allies* (don't see conspiracies everywhere, Eva! :-))

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

At 10:45 AM 11/14/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 06:43 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>I'm perplexed.  I haven't read anything by Barna Bozoki in Hungarian on
>>FORUM, and I don't remember any of his previous posts to this list, but what
>>he has written in the last couple of weeks doesn't sound like right-wing
>>radical stuff to me.  It doesn't even sound right wing.  Surely, not
>>everything is lost in translation.  Can you unperplex me?
>
>        I'm not going to disect Mr. Bozoki's political beliefs but believe
>me that I am not wrong.

Eva Balogh told Barna Bozoki: "Instead of arguing with me, why don't you
concentrate on sorting out your political beliefs."

If Eva Balogh already knows what Barna's political philosophy is, what's the
point of her asking him to sort it out.  It will be a useless task because
Eva Balogh will only believe Barna if he agrees with her.  All of this is
rather quaint, but not very helpful or productive.

Long live Hungarian style politics, on both sides of the ocean.

Joe Szalai

"There are no more ideologies in the authentic sense of false consciousness,
only advertisements for the world through its duplication and the
provocative lie which does not seek belief but commands silence."
            Theodor W. Adorno

At 06:32 PM 11/14/96 +0100, you Gyorgy Kadar wrote:
>        Lectoris Salutem!
>        Eva Balogh writes:
>"I assume that according to Magda [Zimanyi] there has never been any
>difference between the two." [the two governing Hungarian coalition
>parties MSzP and SzDSz, that is]
>        Here is the perpetual problem: the assumptions of Eva Balogh. When
>she remains with facts, she might be even informative sometimes.

        Perpetual or not perpetual when Magda Zimanyi doubts that the SZDSZ
ever had a distinctive character it can mean only one thing to me: its
leadership is indistinguishable from that of the MSZP.

        As for the expression in English: "I found my match"--it is a
compliment, but if Gyorgy Kadar objects, I will certainly take it back.

        Eva Balogh

My name is Jorge Fonyat and I live in Brazil.

A few years ago I was told my last name is tipically hungarian.
My ancestors came to Brazil over 100 years ago, Through Italy.

I have no original records and there is always the possibility that
the immigration officers - with  difficulties to understand
what the newcomer was saying in his own language -  record a different
name, ortographically similar to hungarian words.

On the other hand, Fonyo'd, near Lake Ballaton, as pointed out by a new
hungarian friend, has a big resemblace with my surname. Could Fonyat
mean "from Fonyo'd" ?

All of you can immagine my curiosity and the challenge this represents.
Any hint / idea or pointer to a specific organization that could have
emmigration records (... 100 years...) will be mostly helpful.

Best Regards and thanks in advance, Jorge Fonyat

ESB again about the GENERAL IMPRESSION stuff:
>
>         This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
> conspiracy, conspiracy!!

I don't know about the right, I am on the left. And also a Hungarian.
It is nothing about conspiracy. No conspiracy whatsoever. Working
out a "general impression" about Hungary and Hungarian patriotism
in the mind of the American people is a vital political interest of
some American groups without any kind of conspiracies.

It is no more than standard technique of manufacturing a public mind-
set which makes easier policy making and some kind of legislations
concerning Central European nations.

I would suggest that you cut back your fascination about conspiracy
theories, before you go completely nuts.
                                                           Sz. Zoli

DIPLOMATIC DISPATCHES
The Washington Post, Friday, November 15, 1996

The Quotable Abe Lincoln
**
Hungarian Ambassador GYORGY BANLAKI could not have been in better form.
He was quoting ABRAHAM LINCOLN and inventing his own idioms at a gala
evening Tuesday to celebrate Hungarys 1,100th anniversary.

// Never consider an immigrant to become a loyal American citizen unless he
retains his love for his motherland, // Banlaki quoted Lincoln as saying, in
listing Hungarys contributions and explaining its vulnerable location --
// a windy intersection // in the path of //Crusaders on their way to the
Holy Land, or Mongols or Turks who had come to conquer Western Europe. //

Over the centuries, Hungarians developed not only the knack for survival,
but what he called // that grass feeling: / Whether elephants fight or make
love, the grass suffers, / // he told an audience gathered for the
celebration
at the Kennedy Center Concert Hall.  He described the event as a
// Hungarian Thanksgiving for all those centuries and for all those Hungarian
Americans who found a new home here and have made such a unique
contribution to the development of the United States. //

Honk if you are Hungarian.
<><><><><><><><><><>

Unfortunately I have to aggree with you.

Kind Regards,

   N. BALOGH

EMails: 

On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, George E. Kantor wrote:

> If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions and
> facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new Hungary.
>
> George E. Kantor
>

The Tocsik affair is an official corruption to further distroy the
beleives of the peoples in the capitalism /of the communists/.

Kind Regards,

N.BALOGH

EMails: 

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Aniko Dunford wrote:

> Dear George EK
>
> The "Tocsik affair" is alien to this here supposedly informed
> Internetite...sorry..  care to expand on it? ... please, don't let it be
> another "romanians yes, hungarians no" style thread?  And, it'd better be
> something positive about the character of the new Hungary! ...for a change?
> We're beginning to sound like we don't belong amongst humanity for Pete's
 sake!
>
>
> Regards,
> Aniko
>
> At 11:03 PM 14/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
> >If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions and
> >facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new Hungary.
> >
> >George E. Kantor
>
> >
> >
>

Unfortunately Fonyat doesn't mean from Fonyod.

Kind Regards,

Nandor BALOGH

EMails: 

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Jorge Fonyat wrote:

> My name is Jorge Fonyat and I live in Brazil.
>
> A few years ago I was told my last name is tipically hungarian.
> My ancestors came to Brazil over 100 years ago, Through Italy.
>
> I have no original records and there is always the possibility that
> the immigration officers - with  difficulties to understand
> what the newcomer was saying in his own language -  record a different
> name, ortographically similar to hungarian words.
>
> On the other hand, Fonyo'd, near Lake Ballaton, as pointed out by a new
> hungarian friend, has a big resemblace with my surname. Could Fonyat
> mean "from Fonyo'd" ?
>
> All of you can immagine my curiosity and the challenge this represents.
> Any hint / idea or pointer to a specific organization that could have
> emmigration records (... 100 years...) will be mostly helpful.
>
> Best Regards and thanks in advance, Jorge Fonyat
>

> unskilled, untimely gentleman-like, governing coalition, in 1994 the
> convinced marxists (MSzP) and the disillusioned marxists (SzDSz) had again
> a chance to govern together in Hungary. It turned out in two years that
> they belong to each other, and they are united, organically joined, and
> are forming the ruling and stealing kleptocracy of our little,
> wooden-towered homeland.
>         Those, who have eyes, can see it, those who have ears, can hear
> it. Are we all nasty?
>         God be with us all...           kadargyorgy


How can anyone call a party marxist, when that party is pro-
capitalist (MSzP) is beyond my comprehension. You can
call them social-democrat - that means pro-capitalist.

At 01:39 PM 11/14/96 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>> >In capitalism your free choice is linearly related to the size of
>> >your bankaccount.
>>
>> This is why this system works. Everyone tries to increase this size to
> maximum.
>>
>
>
>That's why it doesn't work. A large section of the population
>hasn't got the same opportunity for this successful "increasing",
>than another (those who already have above average  lot.)
>
>

To Eva Durant:

You have made your point.  You don't think capitalism works.

Now tell us what, in your opinion, does.

Charlie Vamossy

In article <v01540b00aeafdba194e8@[198.168.48.45]>,
 says...
>
>When a piece of music or poem or novel is created it begins an
independent
>life, independent of its creator. This is the only way we can enjoy the
>music of Wagner, without agreeing with his Nazism or the philosophical
>writings of Lukacs without worrying about his behaviour as a war
commissar
>in 1919. Klara Feher's best works can also be enjoyed without taking
into
>consideration  her character or political behaviour today.
>
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

I fully agree with this philosophy.  However, I would like to point out
here that Wagner died long before nazism was born.  He was Hitler's
favourite composer, but who knows, how he would have behaved if he would
have been a contemporary?

Agnes

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>The answer is so easy, Johanna, that you may be surprised
>to learn it: Joe and Sam has a special mission here on
>this list as far as Hungary and its "general impression"
>(as Eva Balogh uses this expression) in the minds of the
>people of the United States is concerned.
>                                                Sz. Zoli
>
Yes, it's a very easy answer. Not the right one, mind you, but an easy one
nonetheless. I'm sure Joe is probably wiping his hard drive down with
bleach at this moment after you suggested that he and I have a common
goal. I say good things about Hungary and Hungarians in general. I say bad
things to you to your (electronic) face, but that's just because you're a
ultranationalist nut. Other than that...I love you, man!
Sam Stowe

"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan

Jorge Fonyat > wrote:

>My name is Jorge Fonyat and I live in Brazil.
>
>A few years ago I was told my last name is tipically hungarian.
>My ancestors came to Brazil over 100 years ago, Through Italy.
When a vegetable or fruit starts losing its freshness, after it
becomes wilted, but before it becomes shriveled (osszezsugorodot) it's
said to be

    fonnyat

Imagine a grape after it lost its freshness, but before it becomes a
raisin. I'll be a monkey's uncle if I know what the English word is,
and I thought I knew'm all :-).

If Brazilian immigration officials are related to ours (US), it stands
to reason that they may have dropped an 'n' or two.

Sorry, it's the best I can do on short notice.

Bandi
       |===================================================|
       |    Andrew J. R"zsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA     |
       |                                      |
       |---------------------------------------------------|
       |            Nincsen ro'zsa to"vis ne'lku"l!        |     |
       |===================================================|

At 11:03 PM 11/14/96 GMT, George Kantor wrote:

>If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions and
>facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new Hungary.

        No, it hasn't been although at the time when the story surfaced I
was thinking about introducing it. I will give here a brief outline of the
"scandal of the decade." It is called the Tocsik affair because of Marta
Tocsik, a woman in her forties who apparently finished law school but has
not passed the Hungarian equivalent of the bar exam. Marta Tocsik became
involved with the central privatization office (APV) last January. (For
almost a month the details were not known but according to today's news her
patron at the APV was no other but Imre Szokai, the chairman of APV's board
and a close associate of the prime minister.) She offered her services as a
mediator between the APV and the local governments in settling some
accounts. According to the law if a company/factory was privatized, part of
the monies received was supposed to be handed over to the local government
for the property on which that factory/company building stood. Years went by
and the local governments saw no money because the APV was reluctant to pay
fair market value for the real estates, especially if the company/factory,
which had been in bad shape in the first place, was sold for relatively
little money but the real estate--often in desirable locations--was
valuable. The APV as well as the local governments decided to hire outsiders
to do their bidding and for that bidding they offered a certain percentage
of the amount in question. Somehow--and as I said this is still not clear
how--Marta Tocsik was representing the APV and she had a valid contract
(original cannot be found!) promising her a ten-percent "success fee," if
succeeds to convince the local governments to accept less money than they
originally demanded. Marta Tocsik was hired by the APV sometime in January
1996 and by October she received over 800 million forints (5.3 million
dollars) in "honorarium." But somehow--and this is not very clear either
how--the "deal" came to light. One of the more important and visible FIDESZ
parliamentary member, Tamas Deutsch, received information concerning this
deal and he announced it in parliament. (As a footnote here, a few days
before the Tocsik affair hit the newstands I read a short announcement
according to which the APV sold 95 billion forints worth of state property
but its expenses was something like 87 billion forints. I muttered to
myself: my God these jerks manage to spend most of the money by giving out
high salaries, driving expensive service cars, every second person having a
mobil telephone, and, of course, the most expensive office equipment which
money can buy because otherwise how it is possible that so much money is
being spent by the agency! I also murmured to myself something like: My God!
By the end all the privatization money is going to end up in the pockets of
individuals.)

        So, poor Marta Tocsik was in big trouble, but, of course, the real
culprit wasn't Marta Tocsik but the people who were running the show at APV.
The head of APV was a good friend of the prime minister (they used to work
together in the foreign ministry of the old regime), and the minister,
overseeing the operations, was no other than Tamas Suchmann, another good
friend of the prime minister and an MSZP member. After some hesitation
Suchman's head as well as the board members of the APV were rolling. The
suspicion is that the money received by Marta Tocsik didn't all end up in
Marta's fat bank account but most of the money actually was laundered back
to the coffers of the MSZP and perhaps even of the SZDSZ. We have no proof
of this but the fact that Marta is offering a deal, giving some of the
monies back, would indicate that she is not clean either.

        As far as I can see: with the exception of the FIDESZ no other party
wants to pass a law which would put an end of politicians' having economic
roles both in state and in private companies. If someone asked me what I
would do if I had a free hand: I would reduce the number of parliamentary
deputies to 200 from over 400 right now. I would pay them a decent salary
but I would forbid them to get involved with any kind of commercial
activity. Unfortunately, it is very unlikely that such a legislation will
pass: neither the MSZP nor the SZDSZ want to have such a radical change (for
obvious reasons!). I would also do something about the financial situation
of the parties. No party can survive on dues (not even the MSZP with its
30,000 members and the others don't have as many) and the monies they
receive from the government are simply not enough for their needs. Thus
comes such schemes as the Tocsik affair.

        I hope that this will start a discussion about clean politics (if
there is such an animal) and the situation in Hungary.

        Eva Balogh

At 03:27 PM 11/15/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        I have never declared myself a historian...
>        I am all right with natural science...

        But you are remarking on historical events. You gave a synposis of
Hungarian history of the last fifty years or so. Yes, you are "not a
historian," that's for sure, but that doesn't stop you--or anyone else for
that matter--to make historical pronouncements. And on the basis of those
pronouncements/opinions you formulate your own thinking of today's events.
And as long as you are dead wrong about the past you most likely are dead
wrong about the present as well!

>It was just natural, that 56-ers like Mecs, Vasarhelyi, Halda, Darvas
>found friends in the "opposition" of the MSzMP regime.

        If you think that people like Mecs, Vasarhely, Halda, Darvas,
Goncz--just to mention a few people who are at least as old as I am if not
older--are so stupid that they decided to join the SZDSZ simply because the
SZDSZ was "in opposition" of the MSZMP, I think you are again dead wrong.
For Pete's sake, if they wanted to they had plenty of opportunity to join
the other parties: MDF, Smallholders, Christian Democrats, and so on. After
all, Goncz, for example, was a smallholder in 1945. No, they joined because
they liked the ideas of that particularly party the best.

>        The puzzle is, how could the "radically anti-MSzMP(???)"
>SzDSz transform into the coalition partner of the MSzP. Naiv
>puzzle-solvers, accustomed to coherence of human beings, might think that
>they probably have always remained true to their marxist heritage (the
>komenymag, I mean).

        It is not a puzzle. I gave a very good explanation why the SZDSZ
joined the coalition, and because by that time I was an avid follower of
political events in Hungary I can attest to it that the SZDSZ was very much
pressured by the population as well as by the intellectual elite to join the
MSZP. I didn't like it and I was keeping my fingers crossed for good two
weeks that they wouldn't join. Well, they did. I think they made an awful
mistake and not just for their own party but for the future of Hungary.
You--because you are full of prejudices against them--are convinced that
they joined because they are "just as rotten marxists as the leadership of
the MSZP." And I am sure that I will never convince you otherwise.

>        Could anybody offer an American/English version of a rural,
>traditional farewell greeting, a possible equivalent of Hungarian:
>
>        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy

        "God be with you" is a pretty good equivalent but because we live in
a secular society, I would advise you not to use it.

        Eva Balogh

At 02:13 PM 11/15/96 -0500, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>ESB again about the GENERAL IMPRESSION stuff:
>>
>>         This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
>> conspiracy, conspiracy!!
>
>I don't know about the right, I am on the left.

        Oh, my God! I asked you earlier why do you think that you are "on
the left," that you are a "social democrat." That is the biggest joke in the
face of the earth. You are a nationalistic rightwinger.

        Eva Balogh

At 04:47 PM 11/15/96 +0000, Eva Durant wrote as an answer to Gyorgy Kadar:

>How can anyone call a party marxist, when that party is pro-
>capitalist (MSzP) is beyond my comprehension. You can
>call them social-democrat - that means pro-capitalist.

        Yes, Eva, you are right. The MSZP is no longer a communist party,
perhaps not even a marxist party, with the possible exception of its
left-wing which doesn't seem to be at all influential. But, at the same
time, according to most observers, it is not a pure social-democratic party
either. And I think the people who claim that the MSZP is somewhere between
the ruling party of the existing socialism and social democracy are right.
Not because of ideology but because the party leaders have been brought up
during a basically undemocratic regime and because most of them--including
the prime minister--spent their lives as professional party functionaries of
the ruling--the only--party. Their reactions, therefore, are rarely really
democratic. Their first instincts are usually undemocratic. But, of course,
this is true about society at large.

        But, Eva Durant is right when it comes to Gyorgy Kadar's view of
Hungarian politics today. According to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed.
The MSZP is the same as the MSZMP or the MDP, or the MKP. And now these
horrible communists are helped by a so-called opposition, the SZDSZ. And the
SZDSZ's ideology is not at all different from that of the MSZP, the MSZMP,
the MDF, and the MKP. So, according to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed
since 1949 or 1950! This is so blatantly wrong that I don't think that I
have to spend too much time on it. Yet, this is how the some people--most
people--of the "opposition" sees today's governing parties. I know that this
is wrong and a lot of other independent observers know that this is wrong,
but the Hungarian opposition, by and large, think that their way of
interpreting the history of Hungary in the last fifty years and their
assessment of current political events is dead right! Thus, there is a
terribly polarized society where at least a sizeable portion of the
population isn't seeing reality as it should be seen.

        Of course, I know what Gyorgy Kadar's reaction to the above is going
to be: how does Eva Balogh know that reality as she sees it is correct.
Well, I'm afraid only time will tell but, being as arrogant as I am, I am
convinced that I am right. Unfortunately, the question of who is right and
who is wrong is totally irrelevant. What is relevant though is that I don't
see an acceptable political formation on the Hungarian scene which could
carry out the task of building a new, democratic society based on a healthy
and thriving market economy. Put it that way: I am terribly disappointed in
the governing coalition and I don't see any other party among the ranks of
the opposition which I would like to see in power or which I would consider
to be acceptable for building a happy and prosperous Hungary.

        Eva Balogh

In article >,
 says...
>
>>
>> >In capitalism your free choice is linearly related to the size of
>> >your bankaccount.
>>
>> This is why this system works. Everyone tries to increase this size to
> maximum.
>>
>
>
>That's why it doesn't work. A large section of the population
>hasn't got the same opportunity for this successful "increasing",
>than another (those who already have above average  lot.)
>
>
>
>> >
>> >I detect inconsistency. In capitalism you are lucky to do what you
>> >are forced to do?
>>
>> Who is forcing anyone? Last time I checked people lined up at
factories
>> advertising job openings.
>>
>> Gabor D. Farkas
>
>What other choice they have? They are free to be
>unemployed and poor, they are not free to choose jobs,
>choose house, choose education.
>


This sounds to me like my Tarsadalmi Ismeretek classes 50 years ago.
Eva, thousands of us came out from Hungary with only the clothes on our
back and, so far I know, we all achieved a minimum average standard of
life in the New World, but many of us an above average one;  All the
children of my friends and acquaintances finished university and are
highly successful professionals.  And in those times we didn't have all
the goody-goody's present refugees and immigrants to Canada (I don't know
about the US) get!

Agnes

At 07:13 AM 11/15/96 -0400, Johanne wrote:


>Hmmmmm, maybe, but . . . don't tar Janos Zsargo with the brush meant for
>Zoli Szekely. Just because Zoli makes a comment doesn't mean that he and
>Janos are necessarily *allies* (don't see conspiracies everywhere, Eva! :-))

        Yes, Johanne, you are right. Zoli Szekely and Janos Zsargo are not
of the same political mind. I completely agree.

        Eva Balogh

In article >,
 says...
>
>Dear George EK
>
>The "Tocsik affair" is alien to this here supposedly informed
>Internetite...sorry..  care to expand on it? ... please, don't let it be
>another "romanians yes, hungarians no" style thread?  And, it'd better
be
>something positive about the character of the new Hungary! ...for a
change?
>We're beginning to sound like we don't belong amongst humanity for
Pete's sake!
>
>
>Regards,
>Aniko
>
>At 11:03 PM 14/11/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions
and
>>facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new
Hungary.
>>
>>George E. Kantor
>
>>
>>Unfortunately, there is nothing positive about it.  But I let George
explain the details.

Agnes

 on Nov 14 19:16:25 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #847:

>At 07:21 PM 11/14/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

                                        <snip>

>>        God be with us all...           kadargyorgy

>        And and someone already said on one of the lists, please cut out the
>"God be with us all" crap! Calling the name of God to your notes is a
sacrilege!

>        Eva Balogh

Whoever that "someone" was, s/he was out of line criticizing a fellow
listmember's choice of salutation.  I happen to think that calling the "God
be with us all" phrase crap is the real sacrilege.

Ferenc

At 03:27 PM 11/15/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        I have never declared myself a historian...
>        I am all right with natural science...

In this we are alike.

>Perhaps mentioning the umbrella of fathers and godfathers could
>have provide a hint, that not all of the present-day Hungarian (convinced
>and disillusioned) marxists were meant to be adult and active before,
>during and right after 1956.

Again, who are those in the SZDSZ "komenymag", who are now convinced
marxists, and on what else is this statement based, other than their
government coalition? And again, what is wrong with disillusioned marxists
joining the opposition to marxism? What else would you recommend they did? I
also object to guilt by association, whether to fathers, godfathers or any
other relatives. Each adult person should be judged by his/her own deeds,
regardless who their parents were (famous examples: Castro's daughter,
Stalin's daughter).

> But in the sixties in university circles more
>than one member of the "hard core" or "ko:me'nymag" of the later SzDSz
>were known as convinced marxists, if not maoists. Sure enough, 1968 was
>quite a milestone in this respect.

I am not sure I understand the last sentence. Did they come out and support
the Warsaw pact invasion of Chechoslovakia? Or what?

>        The "democratic opposition" of the late seventies-early eighties
>was surrounded by non-marxist sympathizers too, who visited the shop of L.
>Rajk, who distributed the issues of "Beszelo" and other "samizdat"
>publications among each other, who supported them even financially, etc.
>It was just natural, that 56-ers like Mecs, Vasarhelyi, Halda, Darvas
>found friends in the "opposition" of the MSzMP regime.

Why do you put opposition in quotation marks? Please explain, why were they
not true opposition?

>        The puzzle is, how could the "radically anti-MSzMP(???)"
>SzDSz transform into the coalition partner of the MSzP. Naiv
>puzzle-solvers, accustomed to coherence of human beings, might think that
>they probably have always remained true to their marxist heritage (the
>komenymag, I mean).

Less naive puzzle-solvers have other possible explanations. For example: the
MSZMP =not MSZP. Or the SZDSZ having offered a coalition position by the
MSZP (that had the majority to govern on its own) considered (maybe wrongly)
that it can impose its own values on the successors to the MSZMP. Maybe the
SZDSZ considered that it is the lesser evil to get into the coalition with
the MSZP and thus weaken the extreme right of Csurka and Torgyan. Or maybe
the SZDSZ considered that having the Ministry of Interior in their hands is
better than having it in the hands of the MSZP. I am sure that others, more
familiar with the intricacies of the Hungarian political life could come up
with many other plausible explanations.

I would also ask our true historians the following question: was there a
precedent in the Western democracies for liberal-democratic parties (like
SZDSZ) getting into a coalition with socialist parties (like MSZP)?

Gabor D. Farkas

Eva Durant > wrote:

>
>
>That's why it doesn't work. A large section of the population
>hasn't got the same opportunity for this successful "increasing",
>than another (those who already have above average  lot.)
>

I am sure my father, who arrived in this country (US) at age 40, with
only a high-school education and without being able to speak a word of
English, would be amazed at your statement.

You may write to his (paid-off) condo in Beverly Hills. Of course, you
will have to wait until he comes back from his (third, this year) trip
to Hungary.

>
>What other choice they have? They are free to be
>unemployed and poor, they are not free to choose jobs,
>choose house, choose education.

This is balderdash. In the system in which I live, the limit is
exactly where the individual sets it and the effort s/he is willing to
put forth.




Bandi
       |===================================================|
       |    Andrew J. R"zsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA     |
       |                                      |
       |---------------------------------------------------|
       |            Nincsen ro'zsa to"vis ne'lku"l!        |     |
       |===================================================|

At 01:18 AM 11/16/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

>    fonnyat
>
>Imagine a grape after it lost its freshness, but before it becomes a
>raisin. I'll be a monkey's uncle if I know what the English word is,
>and I thought I knew'm all :-).

The correct spelling is fonnyadt.

 According to Orszagh: withered, wilted, sere, sear, marcescent
(gyumolcs=fruit) shrunken, (szepseg=beauty) faded, (breasts) flabby.

Gabor D. Farkas

Lectoris Salutem!

        I have never declared myself a historian...
        I am all right with natural science...

        Dear Gabor, please, take note of the separate paragraphs, when I
tried to describe roughly the 1) convinced, 2) disillusioned Hungarian
marxists. With lost illusions one usually turns sharply against those who
remain convinced. The loss of illusions was caused mainly by post-56 and
post-68 events, and for brevity I wrote simply (perhaps ambiguously,
sorry): later... and I meant later...
Perhaps mentioning the umbrella of fathers and godfathers could
have provide a hint, that not all of the present-day Hungarian (convinced
and disillusioned) marxists were meant to be adult and active before,
during and right after 1956. But in the sixties in university circles more
than one member of the "hard core" or "ko:me'nymag" of the later SzDSz
were known as convinced marxists, if not maoists. Sure enough, 1968 was
quite a milestone in this respect.
        The "democratic opposition" of the late seventies-early eighties
was surrounded by non-marxist sympathizers too, who visited the shop of L.
Rajk, who distributed the issues of "Beszelo" and other "samizdat"
publications among each other, who supported them even financially, etc.
It was just natural, that 56-ers like Mecs, Vasarhelyi, Halda, Darvas
found friends in the "opposition" of the MSzMP regime.
        The puzzle is, how could the "radically anti-MSzMP(???)"
SzDSz transform into the coalition partner of the MSzP. Naiv
puzzle-solvers, accustomed to coherence of human beings, might think that
they probably have always remained true to their marxist heritage (the
komenymag, I mean).

        Could anybody offer an American/English version of a rural,
traditional farewell greeting, a possible equivalent of Hungarian:

        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy

PS: ...if not, this will be my greeting in the future instead of:
        God be with us all              kgy