Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 357
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-06-03
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 CODEX CUMANICUS (was Re: Transilvania...) (mind)  163 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind)  384 sor     (cikkei)
3 [Megemle keze s] Chicago (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind)  388 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
6 Att. CEOs, Senior Managers and HR Pros (mind)  133 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Cluj/Clusenberg/Kolozsv. (was:Re: Transilvania was. (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Transylvania was, is and would be ... (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
9 CALL FOR PARTICIPATION (mind)  115 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: CODEX CUMANICUS (was Re: Transilvania...) (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Cluj/Clusenberg/Kolozsv. (was:Re: Transilvania was. (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)

+ - CODEX CUMANICUS (was Re: Transilvania...) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Mr. Ciuca, 

I appreciate your effort of summarizing the history of Cumans and
Pechenegs. Unfortunately, your presentation, despite an unjustified
mentioning of Andrei Otetea and Vlad Georgescu,  is nothing but a
mediocre and not too cunning compilation of three short entries from
"Britannica On-Line." Not that is something necessarily wrong with
your relying only on BOL, although one might say that copying form
more than one source is research while copying from only one author
is pure plagiarism, but you have also distorted the meaning of several
facts presented there.  

More precisely, among valid information copied from BOL you inserted
several unwarranted personal touches, meant to spread blur over the
obviously incorrect statements of your previous post and prove that
you had been all the time aware of the distinction between the
Pechenegs and Cumans. The result is quite the opposite.

The BOL entry on Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus reads: 

"His DAI treated the Slavic and Turkic peoples[...]," which Mr. Ciuca
reworked as 

>Este adevarat, in a sa De administrando imperii, Constantin al VII-lea 
>Porfirogenetul relateaza despre istoria popoarelor de origine slava si 
>turcica. 

revealing the source of his compilation by repeating the wrong
spelling "imperii" (the title is "De administrando imperio"), used
accidentally by Britannica only when mentioning that "The main source
on Pecheneg history is the De administrando imperii of the Byzantine
emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (see BOL entry: Pechenegs).

However, Mr. Ciuca continued by adding his first element of original
contribution:

>In cazul acestora din urma [i.e., Turkic people], despre cumani, pe de o parte
 si 
>despre pecenegi, pe de alta parte. Nimeni nu i-a confundat.

DAI contains basic information on most people of East Central and
Eastern Europe, attested there between ca. 600 and 950 AD (Pechenegs
included), but NOTHING ON CUMANS. And that's quite normal since during
the 10th century the Cumans are still in their original home (north
central Asia), were they just won supreme power over the other tribes.
They will be forced south (and thereafter west) only in the early
eleventh century when Porphyrogenitus, his DAI concluded probably in
950, was already dead (959 AD). Therefore, the assertion that
Porphyrogenitus wrote also about the Cumans doesn't belong to BOL, but
only to Mr.Ciuca.

Mr. Ciuca also reveals that his ability to handle elementary
arithmetics is rather poor. Thus, he wrote: 

>In secolul urmator, insa, dupa  exact 150 de ani de la moartea lui, la 
>portile Constantinopolului s-a consemnat disparitia puterii militare si a 
>structurilor de conducere proprii triburilor de pecenegi, ca urmare a 
>infrangerii [later he gives the date as 1090-1091] suferite in conflictul cu 
>armata Bizantului condusa de insusi  Imparatul Alexius I, in coalitie cu 
>TRIBURILE NOMADE DE CUMANI(tot de origine turcica). 

which is an approximative "translation" for:

"In 1090-91 the Pechenegs advanced to the gates of Constantinopole
(now Istanbul), where emperor Alexius I with the aid of the Kumans
annihilated their army and effectively destroyed Pecheneg power (BOL
entry: Pechenegs)" 

Since Constantine died in 959, "exactly 150 years after his dead"
means exactly 1109 , not 1090 nor 1091. 

More important, Mr. Ciuca added again his personal touch: 

>A urmat un proces de dispersie a pecenegilor, alaturi de un altul, de 
>asimilare, a multora dintre ei, triburilor de cumani.

If this is a fact, will Mr. Ciuca be kind enough to provide an exact
quote from his source for the second process?

Mr. Ciuca follows with a slightly revised version of BOL entry
"Cuman"

> Abia in sec. XIII, Regele Bela al IV-lea al Ungariei a acordat azil 
>unui numar de aprox. 15.000 de cumani (care l-au urmat pe printul Barc si 
>au acceptat baptizarea) dupa ce isi  asumase titlul de "Rege al 
>Cumaniei"(inca din 1227 A.D.).

For comparison, here is the BOL original:

>by the beginning of the 13th century, they had become more aggressive and 
>launched their own raids into southeastern Transylvania. Soon afterward the 
>Cuman prince Barc and 15,000 of his people were baptized (1227). 
>The first bishopric of Cumania was established in 1228, and King  Béla IV of H
ungary
>assumed the title "king of Cumania." 

And than again inserts a totally unsupported statement (do I detect a
pattern here?):

>Multi dintre cumanii care s-au asezat, 
>gratie  respectivului azil in bazinul carpatic, erau, in fapt, pecenegi 
>asimilati. Fireste, alte asezari de pecenegi (neasimilati) existau, in
>urma infrangerii din 1090-1091 (la care m-am referit) 

Maybe Mr.Ciuca will be kind enough to provide additional support for
his assertion that "many Cumans were in fact assimilated Pechenegs."

A rhetorical question:

>De unde provine dispersia la care m-am referit? 

is followed by another lengthy translation from BOL:

>Chiar inainte de 
>invazia mongola in Ungaria, printul Kuthlen al cumanilor (care, mai 
>inainte, organizase fara succes rezistenta rusilor in fata acelorasi 
>mongoli) a fost tratat de catre unguri ca fiind un periculos "aliat" si a 
>fost asasinat. Atunci (1240 A.D.), cumanii au parasit Ungaria. Nu pentru 
>mult timp, deoarece, dupa numai cinci ani, Stefan al V-lea (fiul Regelui 
>Bela care s-a si casatorit cu o printesa cumana; fiul lor, Ladislau al 
>IV-lea a continuat aceeasi politica de asimilare a CUMANILOR si 
>PECENEGILOR care nu s-a incheiat, de fapt, decat cateva secole mai 
>tarziu).

and another personal insertion by Law Student, who conveniently added
the Pechenegs next to the Cumans in the following excerpt from the
"Cuman" entry of BOL:

"In 1239 he granted asylum to the Cumans and their prince
Kuthen, who had earlier tried unsuccessfully to organize Russian
resistance to the Mongols. Just before the Mongol invasion of Hungary
in 1240-41, however, Kuthen, who was considered a dangerous alien, was
murdered; the Cumans left Hungary but were resettled there by Béla in
1245. Béla's son, the future  Stephen V, married a Cuman princess,
and, under the rule of their son   (Ladislas IV [László]; 1272-90),
Cuman  influence in Hungarian affairs was great. Nevertheless, the
CUMANS did not become completely assimilated into Hungarian society
for centuries."

>Iata, deci, ca acea mixtura "cumani-pecenegi" la care m-am referit a 
>existat in realitate, nefiind o inventie a mea.

For both people were assimilated into the same host(s), the idea of a
metaphorical Cumano-Pecheneg mingle is correct. However, Pecheneg is
not an alternative for Cuman, as Mr.Ciuca himself had clearly stated
before this, pardon my saying, rather embarrassing attempt to prove
it.

Anyhow, I must agree, Law Student's "contribution" to the altar of
Clio ranks well above the nationalistic dirt posted recently by
Cluster User in

Re: The Hungarians in Transylvania
Date:         1996/02/28

and 

ROMANIAE CONTINUITAS - ARCHEOLOGIAE PROBATIO (EXEMPLI GRATIA)
Date:         1996/04/22

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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I'd rather not.

"Reading about jazz is like kissing your sister"
                     -a librarian somewhere USA
+ - [Megemle keze s] Chicago (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bara'ti e's honfita'rsi szerettetel
                       hivunk e's va'runk mindenkit
              __Magyarorsza'g Alapita'sa'nak Ezersza'zadik__
                                  e's az
          __1956-os Szabadsa'gharc Negyvenedik E'vfordulo'ja'ra__
                                   amit
                      _Magyar Nap_:  1100 e's 40 E'v
                            cimmel u:nnepelu:nk

                         1996 junius 15, szombat
                     d.u. 4-o'ra'to'l este  9-o'ra'ig
                       State of Illinois Building
                            100 West Randolph
                            Chicago, Illinois
                            
	Az u:nnepi megemle'keze'sben, melyet de'luta'n 5-o'rakkor 
   kezdu:mk, versek, pro'za, e'nek, zene e's ne'pita'ncok szerepelnek.
   A mu:sort megelo"zo" e's azt ko:veto: o'ra'kban gyo:no:rk:dhetu:nk
   egyesu:leteink, u:zletembereink a'ltal szervezett kia'llita'sokban,
   melyek de'luta'n 4-o'rato'l este 9-o'ra'ig tekintheto"k meg.

	A kia'llita'son ke't magyarorsza'gi repu:lo"jegy keru:l sors-
   ola'sra.  A _Paprika'sh_ vende'glo" szolga'ltatja a finom e'teleket
   e's italokat, juta'nyos a'ron.  A bele'pe's dijtalan.  A parkola's
   $5.00 dollar a 177 North Wells cimen.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+ - Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> 
> I'd rather not.
> 
> "Reading about jazz is like kissing your sister"
>                      -a librarian somewhere USAWE DON'T CARE TO SO SHUT THE F
UCK 
UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+ - Re: Everybody Fuck Otto J. Makela (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. MakelaEverybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
> > I'd rather not.
> > 
> > "Reading about jazz is like kissing your sister"
> >                      -a librarian somewhere USAWE DON'T CARE TO SO SHUT THE
 FUCK 
> UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
Who is Otto J. Makela?
+ - Att. CEOs, Senior Managers and HR Pros (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Financial Institution CEOs, 
                 Senior Officers and
                     Human Resources Professionals
                                            Worldwide

I can  help your organization to achieve its inmediate goals and beyond 
(and make you look good to your Board, Shareholders and Colleagues) by
introducing  you, at no cost, those very special (and hard to find)
profesionals you would like to have in your institution.  I do line
(executives) and staff (expert advise) professionals.

This is Francisco Lopez, Economist, in charge of the International Banking
and Investment Desk at Management Recruiters International Miami, where
I specialize in Senior Management.

This information message is in response to the E mail messages we are
receiving showing interest to know more about us.

Basically, what I do is to introduce to a variety of institutions, at no
cost, the opportunity to acquire the services of extremely qualified
professionals who can bring to your institution, from the opportunity to
fill with a great person a current opening in your management team to other
more exotic possibilities, like bringing in new business and expanding into
new markets, broadening of your client base, reengineerings, adoption of new
technologies, turn arounds and other situations capable of significantly
adding to your bottom line. 

Like in the sports world, I present to the institutions the key teamplayers
who fit in the intitutions's strategic moves.

The firm I work with, Management Recruiters International, the largest
executive search firm in the world, has been a full service company for more
than three decades with an exceptional track record helping institutions
with their managerial resources and expert needs. In fact, the firm
discreetly placed over 25,000 executives last year just in the USA.

My job is to put institutions wanting to have the very best management
available with managers and other professionals wanting the challenge and
the possibilities of advancement only those institutions wanting the very
best are willing to offer.

The extremely qualified and experienced professionals we put in contact with
institutions like yours, are the kind of professionals you might even
consider to create a position (in some cases even a department or a
division) in order to have them in your organization instead of seing them
in your competitor's . . .

These individuals might consider to entertain offers to get the professional
challenge they want, to adequately use their abilities and experience, and,
of course,  to advance their careers.

Also, we can take care of your middle management and supporting personnel
openings and will gladly coordinate any effort, no matter how large it is,
between your institution's Human Resource Professionals and our office and
its access to the resources and human power of more than 600 offices.

We can even assist you or the organization you chose if, due the dynamics of
business, the need for helping your employees finding a new path in their
career life out of the firm arise.

All our services are offered in a contingency basis. It will cost you
nothing to interview the professionals we introduce you.

The high level professionals we deal with (and are constantly looking for)
have, beyond their technical and academic qualifications and experience,  a
combination, in varying degrees, of strong and round intellectual abilities,
emotional maturity and discipline, creativity and the ability to create
structure where there is no one, the ability to see the whole picture and
relate dissimilar fields of knowledge and produce integral but flexible
solutions, the ability to teach and communicate ideas and put those ideas
in to action, the ability to motivate, the ability to sell and make deals,
prudence with a willingness to take the right chances and make the hard
decisions, adequate social skills and streetsmarts and at least, a minimum
but adequate academic background and experience or the ability to be
successfully trained for the position and excel on it.

I personally stand for getting into the right positions persons with
extremely high moral and ethical standards, intrinsical goodness and the
willingness to stand for the highest of the universally accepted values as
well as respect for the human dignity.

The reason for all this, as idealistic as it may sound, is that many of
these professionals are or are expected to be in positions of command  and
decision making that in one way or another would affect the state of the
general society and with it, apart from human considerations. . . the state
of our markets.

As an Economist interested in the globalization of the world economy (and
years of experience in the Securities and International Trade Industries),
I can attest about the importance of going beyond the expected immediate
profitability into issues pertaining to strategy and global positioning.

What happens elsewhere will affect us. You have to have in your organization
people who can see the whole forrest as well as the trees. 

The chances are that you already have great people in your organization, our
goal is to fill those positions that will complete and/ or complement the
depthness and potential of your team.

The professionals I'll introduce you, not only will fill your immediate
bottom line needs but will also help you anticipate the needs of the future.

I will make my best to contact you once or twice a month, may be more if a
special situation arises (please, fell free to call me anytime). May be your
institution would have a position open or may can even create it, may be
not, but at least, you will be presented with an opportunity . . .

By the way, if there is a relative, personal friend or highly regarded
business acquaintance that you feel may like to participate in this discreet
and confidential high level worldwide networking, in either side of the
market, we  would like to know him or her.  My  private book, is a "who is
who" of the International Finance.

Please, feel welcomed to ask any questions regarding this and any other
related matters. We hope you honor us with your participation.

Any inquiries, CVs or exchange of information can be send to the E mail in
this message ) or privately to:

815 NW 57th Ave, Miami, Fl, USA  33126, Att. Francisco Lopez
marked confidential, if necessary. My fax there is 305 264-4251 and my
phone 305 264-4212 (The street address above is my office's at Management
Recruiters International Miami-North)

I do thank you for your time and wish we can enjoy a great professional
relationship.

Sincerely,

Francisco Lopez
International Banking and Investment Desk
Senior Management
Management Recruiters International Miami
+ - Re: Cluj/Clusenberg/Kolozsv. (was:Re: Transilvania was. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Laszlo Katkits wrote:
> 
> Wolfgang Rackebrandt wrote:
> > >Exactly as above. The name *Felek* does not remind me to *Clusen* in
> > >any way. But if you find any similarities between these two names,
> > >please let me know, you know I'm the *boy* who's always prepared to
> > >learn. Even from you.
>
> It was NOT ME claiming the existence of the CLUSENBERG! It was me to
> react on it, because I always new Clausenburg or Klausenburg. BURG and
> not BERG, Clausen and not Cusen. However this name seems to figure in
> some elder books. So you are just adressing the wrong target. Please
> get informed before you get involved!
> 
> Regards:
> //Laszlo

Clusen- or Klusen was very well possible, since in medieval German (and still i
n 
so-called Low German [Niederdeutsch]) you've got a long "u" instead of the diph
tong 
"au", such as in "Haus -- Hus", "auf-uf" etc. Just ask Wolf Rackeberg (haste uf
fjepasst, 
Wolfi? ;-)

(Also note these semantic aspects in German: (1) Klaus < Nikolaus (the name) --
 along 
with  (2) Klause = closet; cell, hermitage; mountain-pass, defile)

"-berg" instead of "-burg" might have been a simple typo error, due to the rese
mblance 
of both Jerry words. Why not?

cheers,
g
+ - Re: Transylvania was, is and would be ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Date:	31 May 1996 07:27:49 GMT
>From:	 ()
>Newsgroups:	soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.romanian
>Subject:	Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province
>
>Liviu Iordache > wrote:
>>
>>The most famous "Lacatus" I know is most probably, from an ethnic
>>viewpoint,  neither Romanian nor Hungarian. But he is one heck of 
>>good soccer player.

"Lakatos" is a common GYPSY name in Hungary. :-)                  
By the way the etymology of "Lakatos" is the following:  Original: 
"locque"- french, - meaning: lock.  Arrived into the Hungarian 
language in the 12th century (via French artisans)(same way into 
the English). Henceforth: the Hungarian name "Lakat" - meaning: 
lock (padlock to be precise).
The "os" is an affix in Hungarian, a formative syllable, to denote 
a person, who in this instance makes, repairs locks. Hence: 
Lakatos.  The "os" "es" "as" affix is a common and major formative 
syllable in the Hungarian.   

>Yeap!  I enjoyed watching him.  Actually, when I was pointing to 
names
>that sounded Romanized Hungarian names, my point was more general 
than 
>Dan picked up on.  Even though the ones I mentioned may have been 
off
>base (after all, I don't know Romanian), I'm sure people, like 
Matyas
>could find genuine examples of Romanized Hungarian names, just as 
you
>guys can find Hungarianized Romanian names.  This is only natural 
with 
>intermixed ethnic groups.
>
>>>Actually, it's been a kind of rumor a long time that she was of 
Chango
>>>background with original name of Kemenes.
>>
>>Yeah, but similar rumors claimed her as Russian or Ukrainian.
>
>I hope by mentioning it as a rumor, it's not taken as a blind 
belief.
>
>>Hmmm, I thought the Hungarian viewpoit is that Csangos were 
initially
>>Cumans. Therefore, Cuman----->Coman (common Romanian
>>name)---->Comaneci :-)
>
>That theory is new to me.  I think the Kemenes -> Comenici
>transformation is more plausible on the similarity of their 
sounding.
>But again, we are talking here about unsubstantiated rumors, so 
it's not
>worth to lose sleep over.

The rumors are not unsubtsntiated. I have personally read it in the 
German magazine "der Spiegel" in 1976, soon after the Montreal 
summer Olympics, sometime during the late summer or early fall of 
that year.  I had a German colleague who showed me the article 
originally.  According to the article, it was Ceaucescu personally 
who ordered the name change.  Also, according to the same article
her birthname was Kemenes, Anna.  Those who doubt this, can (I'm
sure) substantiate this by digging up the original article from the 
archives of "Der Spiegel" - it probably is available online.

Victor
+ - CALL FOR PARTICIPATION (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

CALL FOR PARTICIPATION

						"=85But to keep the people =

together 	=

						one must create works=85"
							(Bhagavad Gita, =

Chapter 3, 	=

							verse 20.)

The disastrous situation that has befallen the Theater du Campagnol is =

not a
stray  accident; it is a symptom of the terrible fate being prepared for =

culture
which is to be from now on subordinated to a totally "liberal", free =

market economy.
We know that Europe indeed forms our political and historical horizon. . =

Europe cannot be constructed without upset. Everywhere changes are taking =

place. Belt-tightening
today, benefit tomorrow.
But what good is an economically strong Europe if it is culturally, =

psychically and =

ethically impoverished
For this reason a certain number of persons from various sites of
reflection and from various countries, aware of the danger of =

impoverishment and even
annihilation menacing the living tissue of cultural and intellectual =

production =

have joined together. We have decided to share our experiences and to
coordinate our  vigilance so as to do the utmost to prevent states from =

imposing irreparable
damage by  their operation. To keep watch, to bear witness, to sound the =

alarm, to make =

suggestions, to anticipate, warn and make the =

gouvernments understand. =

If you share our analysis, or at least our alarm, be with us June 3 at 8 =

p.m., =

either in person at the Bouffes du Nord or in spirit or by virtual =

presence.
We want you to be able to join your voice to ours, to send your =

reflexions
at the time of the meeting. At the Bouffes du Nord we have fax machines =

and internet =

connections that will allow us to be together from far and near. That =

being said, if you =

are worried about missing the meeting, send your declarations before June =

3
to (33.1) 43.28.33.61 or by e-mail to > and on the =

june 3 only, =

to the fax number  40.35.46.03. we will see that they get to the Bouffes =

du Nord where everyone there will be able to benefit from them. =

Do not just  send us a line saying that you are fully with us. Write us a =

letter, a
genuine message,  and fax it to us or send it via the internet. Two =

pages, one page; but be
there. Be there  truely, concretely; not just "symbolically" or through =

your signature. If
so, send a message - quick!
	=

The theme?
Whatever you feel, think, imagine, hope, propose for yourself and for =

others, =

wherever you are or are not. Whatever you are now experiencing. Whatever =

you
want to see produced or not produced. What will Europe be tomorrow? How =

can we address =

ourselves to each other, by what passages of creation?
	=

			Epopea =


This message was transmitted by the Theatre du Soleil

Paris 31/ 06/1996
+ - Re: CODEX CUMANICUS (was Re: Transilvania...) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Domnule Liviu Mircea Iordache,

    Am ezitat sa raspund mesajului domniei voastre care mi s-a parut, 
dupa stupoarea trezita de prima lectura, nu, doar, injust si injurios, 
ci, ceva mai mult, intrand, chiar, intr-un  spectru mai larg, al 
calomniei. Regret ca visceralul din domnia voastra a avut o anumita 
preemtiune in raport cu cerebralul si ati lansat acuze si calificative 
nefondate.

    Ati pornit o sarabanda de acuze de la afirmatia prezumtioasa ca as fi 
tratat cumanii si pecenegii ca pe o entitate omogena, inainte ca, insasi 
omogenizarea, prin asimilarea lor, sa se fi realizat in realitate.

    Am observat, pe de alta parte, ca ati "arhivat" (cel putin, partial) 
articolele mele. V-as fi recunoscator daca ati verifica postingul din 14 
februarie, in care veti descoperi urmatoarele referinte la PECENEGI 
(citandu-l pe Istvan Csicsery-Ronay):

    - "Around 890 they (the Magyars) began to move again because the 
Petchenegs, a Turkish people invaded the steppe..."

    - in alt context: "Under the pressure of three powerful neighbors - 
the Petchenegs, the Russians and the Slavicized Danube Bulgarians..."

    Intr-un alt posting (26 martie a.c.), facand vorbire despre persoana 
voievodului Gyla, mentionam faptul ca unii autori bizantini acreditau 
ideea ca acesta ar fi fost cuman sau peceneg.

    De asemenea, intr-un alt posting m-am referit la cumani, dupa cum, 
intr-unul din articolele precedente, eu insumi adresam invitatia, unui 
preopinent al meu, sa verifice,in Brittanica Micropaedia, o informatie 
(pe care n-o mai decontextualizez, aici, pentru domnia voastra).

    Nu doresc sa am nici ultimul cuvant, nici sa ma justific si nici sa 
va raspund cu aceeasi moneda. De aceea, va promit ca nu ma voi lansa 
intr-o polemica sterila cu domnia voastra si, mai mult, voi inceta sa va 
tulbur wa-ul atunci cand veti face lectura s.c.r.-ului, printr-o benigna 
absenta.

  Daca-mi permiteti, singura mea rugaminte este ca, daca veti avea putin 
timp sa-l risipiti din pricina mea, sa verificati, cu aceeasi acribie 
stiintifica, aceleasi surse documentare pe care le-ati invocat pentru a 
medita, cu mai mult folos asupra sensului notiunilor si calificativelor 
care formeaza continutul acuzelor domniei voastre in legatura cu 
postingurile incriminate.Daca, din aceasta perspectiva, as fi remarcat si 
la domnia voastra vreo nuanta de bunavointa (oricat de subtila ar fi fost 
aceasta), neindoielnic, asa cum am procedat cu alti preopinenti ai mei 
(pe care i-am pretuit, oricat de contrastante au fost pozitiile noastre 
teoretice), v-as fi oferit cateva dintre sursele bibliografice care au 
stat la baza constructiilor teoretice avute in vedere. Regret ca n-a fost 
sa fie asa. Si, pentru ca, in general, romanii nu sunt resentimentari sau 
jignitori, voi incheia si eu cu acest supus si bimilenar salut: Servus!

    Valerius M. Ciuca.
+ - Re: Cluj/Clusenberg/Kolozsv. (was:Re: Transilvania was. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Oh, verzeih mir, dass ich Deinen werten Namen verunstaltet hab'.
Keine Absicht.

g

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