In article >, 
 says...
>
>In article >,
> > wrote:
>>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>>Menetrend szerint.
>>
>>So that sounds like surprise to you, huh?
>>Joe
>
>You used to be better in detecting sarcasm. Have you ever heard: 
>"No shit, Sherlock, what was your first clue?" 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The moderate version is: "You sound surprised." 
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Both mean: "You've just stated something obvious."
>I hope this helps.
>GK

In any event Gyorgy Clichette, both are cliches. Can't you come with 
anything creatively inventive other than to repeat banal cliches?

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Loren Petrich wrote:



 > ...
 >Illich-Svitych had been careful to work with languages for which a lot of 
 >comparatist work had been done; he defined Nostratic as containing 
 >Indo-European, Kartvelian, Uralic, Altaic, Dravidian, and Afro-Asiatic, 
 >though there may certainly be other members.

k. menges is of the opinion that dravidian should be included, and he 
considers uralic, altaic and dravidian as a subdivision of nostartic.

there was talk of sino-caucassian as opposed to nostratic in sci.lang
so could someone summarise the situation as regards to kartvelian?

RK

 > 
 >Greenberg defines Eurasiatic as Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic, Korean, 
 >Japanese, Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Ainu, Gilyak, and Eskimo-Aleut.
 > 
 >The lowest common denominator is Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic; some

| ----------------------------------------------------------
| 
| 
| 	What fun! Did you enjoy pulling my article apart? Good work! And in
| such little time too! You must really know your stuff, huh? On the
| other hand, I'd  hate to think of you as doing nothing else all day
| but  correct the politically uncorrect!  Such a  boring and useless
| task...!


Blah... did you intend to say something here? If  you did -
try again.

| 	While reading your reply,  I could  hear your voice in each and every
| word you wrote,  I detect a terrible anger - you are actually yelling
| at me! - , so much so, that you are unable to write properly,
| therefore your spelling is really something else....!

If that's how you choose to imagine me, it is entirely up to
you. I will not interefere with your fantasies. 

ONce again - if you intended to make a  point - try again..
| 
| Now then, Mr. Szucs, you wish to know the source of the quotation
| below  which according to you  "It sounds great!"?  Here it is. [Chaim
| Weizmann, World Conquerors, p.227 by L. Marschalko/Joseph Sueli Publ.
| London, 1958]
| 	Chaim Weizmann once stated:
| >| 	"We are one people despite the ostensible rift, cracks and differences
| >| between the American and Soviet democracies. We are one people and it
| >| is not in OUR INTERESTS that the West should liberate the East, for in
| >| doing this and in liberating the enslaved nations, the West would
| >| inevitably deprive Jewry of the Eastern half of its world
| >power."
| - - -
| But I do have other quotations from Mr Weizmann which you can find in
| a book that will not be a reprint anymore:


That's fine.. I've heard of libraries...

| 	"In 1937, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of World Zionism, said of
| Europe's six million Jews, 'They are dust in a cruel world. They must
| meet their fate. Only a branch shall survive. They must accept it.'"
| (Source: PERFIDY by Ben Hecht (p.149),  Julian Messner, Inc. New York,
| 1961.]
| 	[I only wrote this here because World Jewry today blames non-Jews for
| not helping the European sufferers at the time! -TJ]
| 	"On the Holocaust and on the Reaction," statement by Itzchak
| Greenbaum, Chief of the Rescue Committe of the Jewish Agency,
| addressed to the Zionist Executive Council on February 18, 1943 and
| published in his book, Beeyemei Khurban Veshoah (In days of Holocaust
| and Destruction), 1946: 
| 	Itzchak Greenbaum, chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish
| Agency, announced in Tel Aviv in 1943, "When they asked me, coudn't
| you give money out of United Jewish  Appeal funds for the rescue of
| Jews in Europe, I said 'No!' And I say again, 'No!' In my opinion one
| should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to
| secondary importance." 
| 	After this Ben Hecht: writes in his book: "Having thus turned their
| backs on the doomed Jews, the same leaders later utilized the
| extermination for raising millions on millions, and for collecting
| billions in reparations from the Germans."(PERFIDY: p.50)
| (Ben Hecht: PERFIDY, p.50 & notes on p. 258.)

I cannot comment on this text. I have not read it, but I'll
be sure to do my homework - hopefully this weekend and find
out the truth behind it. It is completely contradictory in
nature and intention to other, well documented speeches and
letters of the same time, that can be confirmed from
multiple sources. The text seems to be an obvious
provocation, but I hope that I will be able to commit the
time to check the source this weekend.
| - - -
| >SZUCS wrote: "SO what you are saying now is taht comminist were reluctant
| >to let Jews leave because it would have hurt the USSr -
| >isn't the same true of non Jews as well? So isn't being Jewish
| >a onn issue here?" 
| TOTH answers: You completley disregard the statement in my article,
| that while for decades Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union
| non-Jews were not! Therefore, since non-Jews were NOT  leaving the
| Soviet Union,  "brain-drain" occured  only with Jews in
question! 

Let's reiterate your statement. You claim that evidence of
the Zionists and Communists in the USSR working together is
that Jews were allowed to leave the USSR at some point, (of
course why they wanted to leave is a puzzle if they were the
ruling elite), and the reason they were NOT allowed to leave
was a supposed brain drain. Now a prevention of a brain
drain is the reason Jews were not allowed to leave, and it
was NOT the reason non Jews were not allowed to leave. 
And this is what you claim that is not self contradictory...



| SZUCS wrote: >Interesting,. I heard a very similar proclamation about
| >Catholicism from South America... In fact athere are many
| >many movies made about the collaboration ofthe catholic
| >church with the Communists, including guerillas. BUt what
| >does that prove?   Nothing!~
| 
| > Of couirse there are
| >extreme left Jewish organizations - even today. But what
| >is that supposed to prove? 
| 
| TOTH answers: Who said there was no collaboration? Have you ever heard
| of infiltration into an organization - any organization or Church -
| with the purpose of distroying it from the inside? 

You are talking outside of historical context. YOu are usign
the fact that there were many Jewish leaders among
bolsheviks (of course you are conveniantly forgetting that 
there weremany Jews in the anti communist  opposition as well being
tortured for resistnace against communism), yet drawing no
conclusions of the fact that is well knwong that in South
America a great number of priests of the catholic church 
against all odds and against great pressures and persecution
of right wing governments supported the Communist church and
opposition. 

Many feelings that Communist played on were injustices of a
society that were against Judeo Christian values. THis is
what the statements you quoted from the WWI era suggest, and
this is what the wide religious support for communism in
SOuth America suggest as well.

| Where have you been
| in the past 50 years, sir? Of course there was collaboration with
| Communists  in  the Catholic Church! There was, there still IS today
| unfortynately and there will always be!!! [And we must not neglect the
| Freemasons inside work either! 

No.. the UFOs either. And  did you know that Santa Clause
was red? Let's not neglect these important points either. 

But more on this subject some other
| time.]


| But the moment anyone says: Bela Kun, Rakosi or Gero were Jews you
| either say "Oh, they were not really Jews because they did not
| practice their religion!" or you are ready to fire your red-paint  of
| antisemitism-labeling  into  the face of anyone who dares to even
| think otherwise!

Why don't you give me the freedom to respond as I see fit. 

Rakosi and Gero were Jewish the same way Radnoti, Hajos
Alfred, Szenes, or many of the Hungarian Nobel Prize winners
were. They were as Jewish as Kadar Janos was Christian, as
Hitler was Christian, or Caucescu was Christian. 
I have no problem with acknowledging that these people had
Jewish oriogins, as long as you have no problem
acknowledging that these people 
1) Tortured Jews and non Jews equally.
2) That democratic resistance included Jews and non Jews
alike. 

I don't think anyone would call you an antisemite if
together with these murderers who were Jewish you would 
acknowledge Jews many martyrs and tortured to death
many forced in forced labor camps to Recsk. Many all their 
properties taken away from them first by the Nazis then by
the Communists. This is what is required to show a balanced
view.


| 	And what do I wish to prove with all this... you ask? Absolutely
| nothing, except maybe sensatize you and others that THERE IS  an other
| side to every coin, eventhough you like to put your head in the sand
| and repeat what you were told to say! 

I was not told to say anything. Everythign I say here I say
because I believe it. If you hold the views you express you
might  as well give me the same benefit of the doubt. I
could theorize about what leads you to the arguments you
make, butf irst of all they speak for themselves, secondly
these theories are immaterial.. What you say is either true
or untrue, either misleading or not, etc. WHy you say them
is immaterial.

I would recognize your way of
| thinking anywhere, because it is programmed to be
politically correct.

That is your view. You are entitled to it. 

| 
| 	And if you remember, I did not write about the Catholic Church in the
| first place but Ilya Ehrenburg! All in good time I will get to the
| Catholic Church too,... but you will not like that either!

You have long stopped writing about Ilya Ehrneburg. You and
I and everyone else knows that. BEfore you forget, the
Catholic church was brought in to show that if the bogus
arguments you were using to make this point held then the
same claims could be made about the Catholic church as
well. In fact they are incorrect about Judaism and Catholicism.

| - - -
| 	Upon  quoting the Soviet Constitution I am glad that you noticed the
| laws that say one thing for  propaganda, but nothing else. You wrote,
| that although "Soviet Jews were prosecuted and sent to Siberia." But
| did you notice that right until this very day NOT ONE MOSCOVITE HAS
| BEEN PROSECUTED FOR his crime committed against  the
Jewish people?
| How come? Or the killing and torturing  of Soviet Jews is less of a
| crime than that of Hitler? A crime is a crime, is it not? But of
| course you wouldn't notice such minor detail  now would
you?

DO you really fail to see the difference between Hitler's
policies of exterminating the Jews and Stalin's policies
that did not target the Jews specifically? (They did target
Zionists, and anyone opposed to him.Did you once again try
to use Zionist and Jew interchangably?) There is really no
reason to prosecute Stalin and his followers for atrocities
against Jews. The detail you mentioned is not just minor it
is completely a non-issue. Stalinist crimes have been
largely unprosecuted, whether against Jews or Armenians etc.
What is that supposed to prove.

| - - -
| 	"Many Zionists who were sent to Siberia just because they were
| Zionist" - you wrote. Do you refer to Andrej Sakharov the
| atom-physicist? 

No.. Sorry you had to write the following paragraphs
(clipped_ completely in vain)


| 	I know of at least a dozen Jewish historians whose works are only
| available through the socalled "right-wingers". And when we quote from
| them, you and your brethren say that they are Jew-haters or worse..
| ANTI-SEMITES! Now, really!.......... 

1) I did not make such a claim. 2) The fact that something
was written by someone who is Jewish does not neccessarrily
mean it is accurate, or unbiased. Your statement above was
once again --- vacuous.

| 	I suspect that it is your terrific anger and intolerance toward those
| who think and talk differenly from you that prevent you from really
| seeing the world for what it is. What a shame, you are really missing
| a whole lot... With a little chutzpah you can do a lot
better! 

Thanks for your confidence in me, also thanks for trying to
save me from my warped vision of the world. I appreciate the
concern for all you believe I am missing out on. Alas, you
have proven that are the biased observer - evidenced by the
numerous instances you have attempted - WRONGLY - to put
words in my mouth. Unfortunately this is further evidence
that 1) Your simplistic view of the world does not hold. 2)
Your statements are based on assumptions and prejudices
about my points and my thinking which 0 as evidenced above
often mislead you... Now which one of us has  adogmatical
way of thinking?


| SHALOM
| Judit Toth, editor of 24. ORA
| http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth

Almodjon szepeket,
Istvan Szucs

In article >  (Loren Petrich)
writes:

>"Nostratic" was a term coined by Holger Pedersen, who some decades back noted
>some similarities among several Eurasian language families and proposed a
>super-family he called by that name, using Latin noster "our".

Correction:  The name is derived from _nostras, nostratis_ "(our) countryman"
(which is, yes, a derivative of _noster_, but let's use the derivation that
Pedersen did).

Comment:  "some decades" = "nearly 100 years ago".  The earliest paper in which
I've found mention of Nostratic was published in 1903.
-- 
Rich Alderson   You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
                of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
                logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
                know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
                as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
                what not.
                                                --J. R. R. Tolkien,
                               _The Notion Club Papers_

 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:

>In article >,
>Judith Toth > wrote:

>| 
>| How so? While I disagree with a lot of claims and attitudes
>| >of Zionism, I don't see how from what you said here would
>| >mean that this man was a Zionist. In fact in Stalinist
>| >USSR Zionism was ruthlessly prosecuted.
>| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
>| ANSWER: 
>| 	COMMUNISM OR ZIONISM?
>| 	"It is well known in History that at the time of the Revolution some
>| 3/4 of the Bolshevists leaders were  Jewish... When the Bolsheviki
>| came into power, all over Petrograd we at once had a predominance of
>| Yiddish proclamations, big posters and everything in Yiddish." - said
>| dr. Simons, Pastor of the Methodist Church in Petrograd decades ago.)
>| 	The Jewish Chronicle of London wrote on April 4th, 1919:
>| 	"There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so
>| many Jews are Bolshevists. The ideals of Bolshevism are consonnant
>| with many of the highest ideals of Judaism." 

>Interesting,. I heard a very similar proclamation about
>Catholicism from South America... In fact athere are many
>many movies made about the collaboration ofthe catholic
>church with the Communists, including guerillas. BUt what
>does that prove?   Nothing!~

> Of couirse there are
>extreme left Jewish organizations - even today. But what
>is that supposed to prove? 


>| 	 Article 124 of the Soviet Constitution says:
>| "Freedom to perform religious rites and freedom of anti-religious
>| propaganda is recognized for all citizens

>YOu gotto be kidding quoting the SOviet constitution! DIt
>would help your case if you even *pretended* to want some credibility.

>| 	In Article 123: 
>| 	"Any direct or indirect restriction of these rights... as well as any
>| propagation of racial or national exceptionalism or hatred and
>| contempt is punishable by law."
>| 	

>Ditto... Taking the Soviet constitution at face value for
>someone , esp simeone Hungarian  should be ample to consider
>that person unfit for any intelligent debate.

>| 	Today it is  politically correct to say that "in Stalinist USSR
>| Zionism was ruthlessly prosecuted."  [Indeed, it is considered  a
>| hate-crime to say othe

>Yeah.. it is a hate crime.. right...  How many people were
>prosecuted, ofor only saying that in Stalinist USSR Zionism
>was not prosecuted?
>BTW First of all, are you aware of the many dozens of trials
>of Zionists being sent to Siberia, merely for being
>Zionists? Are you aware of the USSR sponsored bills in the
>UN against Zionism?

>rwise!]  - The fight between Communists and
>| Zionists has lasted right down to the present day. But is it really
>| and truly a fight... or only a power struggle between

>SO first you concur that Zionists and COmmunists were
>fighting. I guess what you said above  then - even you agree
>to be untrue.


>| brothers?

>| History is there to clear the air!....

>SO why don't you make a claim and try to support it? SO far
>you have raised a question...

>| 	Without being labelled would anyone dare on this discussion group to
>| enumerate the bankers and industrials who actually financed the
>| Bolshevik Revolution? Can anyone say how much money was involved? For
>| example:  The British War Cabinet issued its official White Paper
>| listing Kuhn, Loeb & Co. and other Zionist bankers who financed Red
>| Russian Revolution. Does anyone know the life story of Armand Hammer
>| or Robert Maxwell?...
>| 	When the state of Israel was born, tens of thousands of Zionists were
>| PERMITTED to emigrate from Russia and satellite territories to
>| Palestine, in a move which still continues today... It should also be
>| noted  that  during this time  non-Jews were never permitted to
>| emigrate from Communist Russia 

>I wonder why these people wanted to leave Russia so much if
>they ruled RUssia anyway.  Today so called revisionist
>scholars make the same claim - they wanted Jews to be
>allowed to leave Europe - for Palestine, and America among
>other places. Do yu claim that the Nazis wer also Jews, and
>Zionists? (The two of course are separate claims). 

>| 	It is also true that the Communist  authorities have been exceedingly
>| reluctant to permit young Jews to emigrate and in many cases
>| permission has been denied. It always boils down to the question of
>| power struggle.

>SO apparently they were not freely allowed to
>emigrate... Therefore  the claim you made above is untrue as
>well. I enjoy when you keep contradicting yourself. That
>much less work for me.


> Because the Soviet State has already spent so much
>| money on young Jews'  education, their  reluctance to let them leave
>| to another country  is quite understandable. This is called
>| "brain-drain". Thus the fight continues.

>SO what you are saying now is taht comminist were reluctant
>to let Jews leave because it would have hurt the USSr -
>isn't the same true of non Jews as well? So isn't being Jewish
>a onn issue here?


> But we should remember that
>| this is a fight between Jews! Whether Communists or Zionists, they
>| still retain their Jewishness and they stand united against all
>| non-Jews. 

>THis statement makes everything you said previously totally
>unneccssarry. If you can and will porve this everythign else
>comes included...  Without this however what you said before
>makes no sense, especially with the previous self
>contradictions and jumps of logic you expressed.
>Let's see therefore your support for this argument.

>They travel different paths, and of course not all Jews are
>| Communists or not all of them are Zionists either, however, both
>| Communism and Zionism happened have the same common
>goal...

>Again, the same goes.. if  you prove this premise the rest
>is proven. Let's see the paragraph that all this depends on:

>| 	Chaim Weizmann once stated:
>| 	"We are one people despite the ostensible rift, cracks and differences
>| between the American and Soviet democracies. We are one people and it
>| is not in OUR INTERESTS that the West should liberate the East, for in
>| doing this and in liberating the enslaved nations, the West would
>| inevitably deprive Jewry of the Eastern half of its world
>power."

>SOunds great. Now as a credible journalist you must know
>that a quote is only as credible as its source and context. 
>Before I fall to my knees in front of all your clear concise
>to the point arguments, would you kindly name that source?

>| 	And believe me Mr.  Szucs, there is much more stuff on this
>| subject!...

>Oh if you say so - I guess then I just have to throw up my
>hands and say you are right.  NOT :)

>| Judit Toth
>| http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
>| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
*******************************************************************************
*******

ANSWER Number 2 to Mr. Istvan Szucs
> ----------------------------------------------------------


	What fun! Did you enjoy pulling my article apart? Good work! And in
such little time too! You must really know your stuff, huh? On the
other hand, I'd  hate to think of you as doing nothing else all day
but  correct the politically uncorrect!  Such a  boring and useless
task...!
	While reading your reply,  I could  hear your voice in each and every
word you wrote,  I detect a terrible anger - you are actually yelling
at me! - , so much so, that you are unable to write properly,
therefore your spelling is really something else....!

Now then, Mr. Szucs, you wish to know the source of the quotation
below  which according to you  "It sounds great!"?  Here it is. [Chaim
Weizmann, World Conquerors, p.227 by L. Marschalko/Joseph Sueli Publ.
London, 1958]
	Chaim Weizmann once stated:
>| 	"We are one people despite the ostensible rift, cracks and differences
>| between the American and Soviet democracies. We are one people and it
>| is not in OUR INTERESTS that the West should liberate the East, for in
>| doing this and in liberating the enslaved nations, the West would
>| inevitably deprive Jewry of the Eastern half of its world
>power."
- - -
But I do have other quotations from Mr Weizmann which you can find in
a book that will not be a reprint anymore:
	"In 1937, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of World Zionism, said of
Europe's six million Jews, 'They are dust in a cruel world. They must
meet their fate. Only a branch shall survive. They must accept it.'"
(Source: PERFIDY by Ben Hecht (p.149),  Julian Messner, Inc. New York,
1961.]
	[I only wrote this here because World Jewry today blames non-Jews for
not helping the European sufferers at the time! -TJ]
	"On the Holocaust and on the Reaction," statement by Itzchak
Greenbaum, Chief of the Rescue Committe of the Jewish Agency,
addressed to the Zionist Executive Council on February 18, 1943 and
published in his book, Beeyemei Khurban Veshoah (In days of Holocaust
and Destruction), 1946: 
	Itzchak Greenbaum, chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish
Agency, announced in Tel Aviv in 1943, "When they asked me, coudn't
you give money out of United Jewish  Appeal funds for the rescue of
Jews in Europe, I said 'No!' And I say again, 'No!' In my opinion one
should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to
secondary importance." 
	After this Ben Hecht: writes in his book: "Having thus turned their
backs on the doomed Jews, the same leaders later utilized the
extermination for raising millions on millions, and for collecting
billions in reparations from the Germans."(PERFIDY: p.50)
(Ben Hecht: PERFIDY, p.50 & notes on p. 258.)
- - -
>SZUCS wrote: "SO what you are saying now is taht comminist were reluctant
>to let Jews leave because it would have hurt the USSr -
>isn't the same true of non Jews as well? So isn't being Jewish
>a onn issue here?" 
TOTH answers: You completley disregard the statement in my article,
that while for decades Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union
non-Jews were not! Therefore, since non-Jews were NOT  leaving the
Soviet Union,  "brain-drain" occured  only with Jews in question! 
- - -
SZUCS wrote: >Interesting,. I heard a very similar proclamation about
>Catholicism from South America... In fact athere are many
>many movies made about the collaboration ofthe catholic
>church with the Communists, including guerillas. BUt what
>does that prove?   Nothing!~

> Of couirse there are
>extreme left Jewish organizations - even today. But what
>is that supposed to prove? 

TOTH answers: Who said there was no collaboration? Have you ever heard
of infiltration into an organization - any organization or Church -
with the purpose of distroying it from the inside? Where have you been
in the past 50 years, sir? Of course there was collaboration with
Communists  in  the Catholic Church! There was, there still IS today
unfortynately and there will always be!!! [And we must not neglect the
Freemasons inside work either! But more on this subject some other
time.] But the difference is that we non-Jews DO NOT DENY THIS FACT!
But the moment anyone says: Bela Kun, Rakosi or Gero were Jews you
either say "Oh, they were not really Jews because they did not
practice their religion!" or you are ready to fire your red-paint  of
antisemitism-labeling  into  the face of anyone who dares to even
think otherwise!
	And what do I wish to prove with all this... you ask? Absolutely
nothing, except maybe sensatize you and others that THERE IS  an other
side to every coin, eventhough you like to put your head in the sand
and repeat what you were told to say! I would recognize your way of
thinking anywhere, because it is programmed to be politically correct.

	And if you remember, I did not write about the Catholic Church in the
first place but Ilya Ehrenburg! All in good time I will get to the
Catholic Church too,... but you will not like that either!
- - -
	Upon  quoting the Soviet Constitution I am glad that you noticed the
laws that say one thing for  propaganda, but nothing else. You wrote,
that although "Soviet Jews were prosecuted and sent to Siberia." But
did you notice that right until this very day NOT ONE MOSCOVITE HAS
BEEN PROSECUTED FOR his crime committed against  the Jewish people?
How come? Or the killing and torturing  of Soviet Jews is less of a
crime than that of Hitler? A crime is a crime, is it not? But of
course you wouldn't notice such minor detail  now would you?
- - -
	"Many Zionists who were sent to Siberia just because they were
Zionist" - you wrote. Do you refer to Andrej Sakharov the
atom-physicist? Well now, his wife Yelena Bonner served in Italy for
40 years as an  agent  of the KGB. [I'll give you the source because
you will ask for it again: this little piece of info. was reported by
THE  EUROPEAN weekly a few years ago.] Yet she came to Canada and the
media gave her the royal treatment because "she has suffered so much
in Soviet Union". Sakharov was sent to Siberia because of his
extensive knowledge and inside secrets of buildig an atomic bomb! 
	I know of at least a dozen Jewish historians whose works are only
available through the socalled "right-wingers". And when we quote from
them, you and your brethren say that they are Jew-haters or worse..
ANTI-SEMITES! Now, really!.......... 
	I suspect that it is your terrific anger and intolerance toward those
who think and talk differenly from you that prevent you from really
seeing the world for what it is. What a shame, you are really missing
a whole lot... With a little chutzpah you can do a lot better! 
SHALOM
Judit Toth, editor of 24. ORA
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
> ----------------------------------------------------

Mark Cristian > wrote:
|On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
|>In its report, the ERRC offers a number of recommendations to the
|>Romanian government. 
|>These include:
|>1. Completion within a reasonable period of time of all investigations
|>....
|>11. Adoption of measures aimed at facilitating access to justice by
|
|I cannot help but notice the idiocy of the EBRRC staff that issued the
|recommendations.

Idiocy can be found everywhere. Nothing new here.

|Nowhere do they mention the root of the problem, the higher rate of 
|criminal behavior by Roma ethnics, 

If we can answer the question of WHY there is a statistically higher rate
of crime committed by the Rom, then perhaps we can identify the one or more
roots of the problem. 

|nor any effective ways to deal with it.

The only way it has been dealt with by Romanians/Magyars has been to beat,
vandalize, steal and burn (all criminal offences) entire villages or
neighbourhoods of Rom. Some of this activity has lead to death (murder).
Well, we can conclude that this has not been an effective way. In fact, it
is entirely counter-productive. It increases hatred and mistrust on BOTH
sides.

Now the beating and vandalizing (all criminal offences) are being carried
out by official organs. This will prove to be entirely counter-productive
and will also increase hatred and mistrust. 

So we know that Romania's methods of dealing with the situation has
resulted in a dismal failure. In the absence of any other organ making any
better suggestions, then the ERRC has already done better with its
suggestions than the status quo.

|Their only concern seems their need to protect a minority of criminals.

Groundless allegation. Their concern is to protect a minority (which has
among its number, criminals) from the majority (which has among its number,
criminals). Note: there have been arrests, convictions and jailings in
Romania's brutal prisons of Roma who have committed crimes against
Romanians. Note: there have been no arrests, convictions or jailings of
Romanians who have committed crimes (arson, murder, theft) against the Rom.

|If the Romanian government will not protect it's citizens, 

If I recall, the Rom are as much citizens of Romania as are Romanians and
Magyars, and deserve BY RIGHT as much protection -- which they don't get.
The forces (farces) of so-called law and order act brutally against the Rom
on behalf of Romanians.

|the citizenry will again take that issue into it's own hands. 

Why should they when the official forces are doing it by proxy?

|No government, at least not in Romania of today can survive the anger of
|it's populace. Next it will be government buildings that are being burnt,
|not only Roma Shacks!

It's already burnt government buildings (1989) and I am sure the memory of
the experience still smoulders. Perhaps, Romania will become a natipon of
professional arsonists. It's curricula vitae shows promise.

|Thus it occurs to me, that any responsible party will, hopefuly, not only
|advise how to protect a criminal class and their way of life, 

I trust this is not what you meant to say.

|but ways to change their situation, so that they no longer need to resort
|to crime.

Two parties need change: Romanians and Roma.

|This far ERRc has failed to do that.  

They have not been given an opportunity to fail. The Romanian population
that has been beating and burning down Roma villages have failed. Currently
the beatings administered by agents of the state are failing. Two down, one
as yet untried.

|I would not object to employment, education and other equal opportunity
|measures, that adress the basics of this issue, with likely prospects of
|improvement.

Now you're talking.

|Other than that, you will have no deal, you will have no progress.

So far Romania has made no progress.

|If the government fails to protect the majority, 

The majority has more to fear from its own counter-productive behaviour and
more to fear from its proxy warriors -- the cops.

|the majority will protect itself to the tune that soon the government
|itself will require protecting.

The government past and present has amply demonstrated that blood is no
inhibitor to self-preservation and advancement. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >, 
 says...
>On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Albert Albu wrote:
>> Yhat you have to give them is DIGNITY:
>> Then you have to give them AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and some exclusive Trade
>> Privileges. In the 19 century Austria gives them trade privileges and it
>> worked. If NY Times is right there are 3.5M Roma in Romania. You could 
>> not assimilate them because they are less educated than the Romanians.
>> A. Albu
>
>If someone is commited to solving this issue honestly and fairly,
>afirmative action, trade priviledges and extensive education are a must.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't believe I'm reading this from you. Have you become a closet liberal? 
Sheeeeeet! I wouldn't recommend those two solutions. Rigorous enforcement of 
anti-discrimination laws yes, but affirmative action? sheeesh.

>These 'comitees' and 'organisations' from the western world that come
>and meddle their advice in Romanian affairs, should understand that such
>an extensive action requires some serious financing. If their aim is to
>help solve  this unfortunate situation, and not the exclusive aim of
>embarrasing Romania.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 This is done by Romanians themselves. The organs are only trying to offer a 
bit of toilet training, regretably to no avail.

In article >,
cristian  > wrote:
| > First you criminalize them, then you sit and watch how 
| > the majority deals with the criminals. This is the method 
| > called POGROM and was used effectively against other "criminals" 
| > in the recent past.   I do not care who is using it or where, it 
| > is wrong and I hope you do not advocate such a stand.
| > A. Albu
| 
| If is not 'them' that are criminalized but a patern of behaviour, which
| is criminalized most anywhere !

Who commits these crimes? Individuals or a group?
If it is individuals, are there LEGAL ways of dealing with
crime?
DO they include police brutality or pogroms? Is  there due
process law in Romania? Is thre a legal system based on 
presumption of innocence? Are these guaranteed by the
Romanian constitution regardless of crime stats of certain
gruops? Does this mean that ANYTHING outside of this
qualifies as crime - whether it is pogroms or police
brutality - whether it is punishment without trial, whether
it is people taking the law in their own hands? 

| What do you suggest, tolerate the present status quo, alowing the spawn
| of a new minority that preys on the majority.  If that is what you want,
| then I have no proplems with POGROM, if that is how you want to call it.
| POGROMED they shall be until an acceptable outcome is found as to

Romania has voiced that the legal system deals with
individuals as such, even if it means that they will not
recognize minority or group rights - which is an
international standard - do you now claim that there is no
group rights, but there is group responsibility, that
individuals based on race can be considrered criminals?

Istvan

I have read that the verb "emlékszik" needs a word with a "ra/re" suffix 
at the end... (ex. Emlékszel-e rám). Is this -ra/-re word necessary. Can 
I just say "emlékszel-e még" to mean "Do you still remember me" or do I 
need to say "emlékszel-e rám még"?... I thank anyone for helping me in 
advance.

Curiously

Peter Chong

 (tezuja.k) wrote:
>Some linguists insist that also Japanese and Korean 
>would belong to the socalled Altaic languages 
>togather with Tungusic, Mongolian, Turkic languages.
>I somehow want to support this theory as a person
>whose mother tongue is Japanes and who has experience
>to study Korean and Mongorian a bit. 
>But I am, for now, not sure which words could be
>or are thought to be cognate between Japanese
>and Korean or between Japanese and another 
>Altaic language or among the whole Altaic languages.
>If someone there is familiar with this topic,
>please tell me about its details.
> 
>Thank you.
>
>tezuja. k  
>


Konichiwa!

On the Altaic languages, some linguists still do not consider Japanese 
and Korean as part of the said group. Some point out that Japanese shows 
similarities with Polynesian and Sino-Tibetan tongues. However, I have 
read that Japanese and Korean show many similarities both grammatical and 
lexical (though not as many grammatical ones). To me Japanese probably 
was an Altaic language (a long time ago that is) and gradually changed as 
the Mongoloid hunters who originally settled on modern Japan were 
isolated from their cousins on the mainland. These hunters probably also 
mixed with any indigenous peoples they found such as the Ainu (maybe some 
Polynesian elements also???) 

I personally believe that the Altaic languages can be linked with the 
Uralic languages (ex. Finnish, Estonian, Magyar, Sholqup, etc.) to form a 
larger family, Ural-Altaic. In turn, based on books and internet sites I 
have run across, it seems plausible to say that Sumerian, Dravidian are 
also part of the Ural-Altaic group with Sumerian or a Sumerian-type 
language being the ultimate root of all modern ural-Altaic tongues.

I won't go through naming examples in Altaic/Japanese/Korean/Uralic and 
Sumerian as there are lots of them, but here are some I have found 
between Hungarian and Japanese. 

MO = now (Japanese)     MOST = now (Hungarian)
TAMAGO = egg (J.)       TOJA'S = egg (Hung.)
                        TYU'K = hen (Hung.)
SUI = give birth (J.)   SZÜLO" = parent (H.)
KATUN = weapon (J.)     KATONA = soldier (H.)
TORI = bird, crane (J.) DARU = crane (H.)
ITSUTU = five (J.)      ÖT = five (H.)
HITOTSU = one (J.)      EGY = one (H. - pronounced e-dy)
TO = ten (J.)           TI'Z = ten (H.)
YATTSU = eight (J.)     NYOLC = eight (H.)
KOKONOTSU = nine (J.)   KILENC = nine (H.)
TEN- = "heavenly" (J.)  DIN-GIR = fairly, nymph (H.)
(like in TEN-ZAN
"heavanly mountain")
TENNO = creator (J.)    IS-TEN = God (H.)
                        TEREMTO" = Creator (H.)
                        Numi-TOREM = Creator (Khanty-Mansi - other       
                                              Uralic tongues)
CSISZAI = small (J.)    CSEKÉLY = small, minor, insignificant (H.)


I know the numbers should be "ichi", "ni", "san", "shi", "go", "roku", 
etc. but I am aware that there are two systems, Chinese and traditional 
Japanese... I used the latter...
I found these correspondances in various sources (ex. a Karate 
terminology sheet, books and other URLs) so if you find something weird 
with them blame the author I got them from.

Books:

Cso"ke, Sándor, "Sumér-finn-mongol-török összehasonlító nyelvtan" Magyar 
    O"skutatás Kiadása; Buenos Aires 1974 
(In Hungarian, gives word lists and basic explanation showing 
relationship between Ural-Altaic languages and Sumerian.) 

Nagy, Sándor "The Forgotten Cradle of Hungarian Culture"; Toronto, 1974
(I can't remember the publisher. This book gives substantial information 
on the Hungarian and Sumerian cultures and languages. It has a chapter 
where it explains that Sumerian has influenced many other peoples 
including Finns, Estonians, Chinese, Sanskrit-speaking peoples and 
Japanese) 

There's also another book called "Japanese and the Altaic languages" or 
something like that but I can't remember the author's name or the 
publishing info. If you want I could find that info for you. Just e-mail 
me for it. The book itself gives a very detailed and meticulous proof 
showing that Japanese is an Altaic language using many linguistic 
phonological and lexical laws.
        
 
URLs

http://exo.com/~fredh/language.htm 
(an essay on the Hungarian language but states that Hungarian is not a 
uniquely Uralic language. It explains briefly that Hungarian is a sort of 
link with the other Ural-Altaic languages. This page also leads into a 
lot of word lists on topics such as grammatical prefixes/suffixes, 
anatomy, nature, family relationships, animals, adjectives and verbs 
showing similarities between languages such as Sumerian, Dravidian, 
Ancient Egyptian, Hungarian, Finnish, Mongolian, Turkish, Manchu and 
several other minor tongues. There are a few Japanese terms too)

http://exo.com/~fredh/myths.htm (links Ural-Altaic mythology with 
Mesopotamian mythology)

http://exo.com/~fredh/sakanam.htm (shows cognates between many U-A 
languages using the root word "SAKA" - the name of a Scythian tribal 
confederation)

I know this all sounds a little strange but I hope it helps and let me 
know if you have any more questions...

Sayonara!

Peter Chong

Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>
>You used to be better in detecting sarcasm. Have you ever heard: "No shit, 
>Sherlock, what was your first clue?" The moderate version is: "You sound 
>surprised." Both mean: "You've just stated something obvious."
>I hope this helps.

No, it doesn't.  It only makes me grin that you, of all people should say
that when you picked such a fight with Wally over one of his word plays
with you. 

Joe

In article >  (Peter k Chong)
 writes:

 >I won't go through naming examples in Altaic/Japanese/Korean/Uralic and 
 >Sumerian as there are lots of them, but here are some I have found 
 >between Hungarian and Japanese. 
 >
 >MO = now (Japanese)     MOST = now (Hungarian)
 >TAMAGO = egg (J.)       TOJA'S = egg (Hung.)
 >                        TYU'K = hen (Hung.)
  ...
>TEN- = "heavenly" (J.)  DIN-GIR = fairly, nymph (H.)
>(like in TEN-ZAN
>"heavanly mountain")

	I think "TEN" meaning "sky/heaven" is a Chinese word,
i.e. from the Sino-Tibetan family.  The Japanese just borrowed
the word from China.

- Anthony Wong
  

The above message is forwarded to  (ABUSE)

Isak Knutsen.

In article >, 
 says...
>On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Olga Lazin wrote:
>> Hi there, 
>> Cristi, as my server is down, this question goes via scr.
>> Would you please identify the source (news) that you posted recently on  
>
>Reuter and the Associated Press had articles. If you need them I can mail
>them to you.
>mc

I don't have these. Could you mail a copy to me as well?
PLEEEEEEEEEEEZ
I know I've been a prick to you.
I can't promise otherwise.
I will promise not to piss on your grave.

You have to give them is DIGNITY:

Dignity by Recognition as Nation between Nations with a large degree of Authono
my. 

Then you have to give them AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and/or some exclusive 
Trade Privileges. In the 19 century Austria gives them trade 
privileges and it worked.
 
If The NY Times is right there are 3.5M Roma in Romania. You could not assimila
te 
them because they are less educated than the rest.


A. Albu



----------------------------------
Istvan Szucs wrote:
> 
> In article >,
> cristian  > wrote:
> | > First you criminalize them, then you sit and watch how
> | > the majority deals with the criminals. This is the method
> | > called POGROM and was used effectively against other "criminals"
> | > in the recent past. I do not care who is using it or where, it
> | > is wrong and I hope you do not advocate such a stand.
> | > A. Albu
> |
> | If is not 'them' that are criminalized but a patern of behaviour, which
> | is criminalized most anywhere !
> 
> Who commits these crimes? Individuals or a group?
> If it is individuals, are there LEGAL ways of dealing with
> crime?
> DO they include police brutality or pogroms? Is  there due
> process law in Romania? Is thre a legal system based on
> presumption of innocence? Are these guaranteed by the
> Romanian constitution regardless of crime stats of certain
> gruops? Does this mean that ANYTHING outside of this
> qualifies as crime - whether it is pogroms or police
> brutality - whether it is punishment without trial, whether
> it is people taking the law in their own hands?
> 
> | What do you suggest, tolerate the present status quo, alowing the spawn
> | of a new minority that preys on the majority.  If that is what you want,
> | then I have no proplems with POGROM, if that is how you want to call it.
> | POGROMED they shall be until an acceptable outcome is found as to
> 
> Romania has voiced that the legal system deals with
> individuals as such, even if it means that they will not
> recognize minority or group rights - which is an
> international standard - do you now claim that there is no
> group rights, but there is group responsibility, that
> individuals based on race can be considrered criminals?
> 
> Istvan

 wrote in article >...
> Peter I. Hidas wrote:
> > >They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian
government.
> > >Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
> > >process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was
already
> > >well underway.
> >
> > Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews
followed.
> > Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected
over
> > and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation
of
> > the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
> > Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil
service
> > and gendarmerie.
> >
> > Peter I. Hidas
> > Montreal
> 
> ----------------------
> It is clear what you are sating. Based on what
> Sam Stowe  states, the rounding up of Jews happened before that date of
> March, 1944. I am interested on who is right.
> 
> Albert Albu
> 
Some elements of the Civil Service were germanophils; The gendarmarie, as a
body under military discipline, carried out orders, it under the conditions
prevailing could not do otherwise. Individual members, both officers and
other ranks, weighed up how to carry out the orders and in many cases went
to the verge of refusing. It must be borne in mind that to refuse meant
court martial and the death penalty.
It was on Horthy's personal orders that the train carrying the first
deportees from Budapest was stopped by members of the gendarmarie.
Furthermore no further deportations from Hungary were allowed while Horthy
was Head of State.
It was only after 23rd October 1944, when Horthy was deposed and Sallasy
took over that the deportations were resumed. Raoul Wallenberg carried out
his sterling work with the full knowledge of the most senior levels of the
gendarmarie and with the tacit help of many civil servants. Indeed this
help is what made his work possible and effective.

Wally Keeler wrote:
> 
> PRESS RELEASE
> 
>  The European Roma Rights Center, an international non-governmental
>  organization which combats human rights abuses against the Roma, announces t
he release of
> its report "Sudden Rage at Dawn: Violence Against Roma in Romania".
> The problem with the gipsies aka Roma aka Cigany is not new or confined to Hu
ngary or even 
Central Europe. The response of the authorities is equally not new. These range
 from 
providing, often inappropriate, housing and handouts to a backlash when ALL cri
mes and 
misdemeanours are attributed to the local gipsies and when any crime is committ
ed the local 
gipsies are pulled in. Since they do not have enough standing in the community 
to secure 
bail, they are jailed. Similarly the do not have the wherewithal to hire a lega
l defender, 
so they are arraigned before the court WITHOUT the benefit of "inocence until p
roved guilty 
beyond reasonable doubt".
This is a worldwide problem because for gipsies read Australian aborigines or a
ny 
semi-nomad fringe group.
The answer needs to be protracted and many pronged and there are no shortcuts.

In article >, 
(Istvan Szucs) wrote:
> In article >,
> cristian  > wrote:

> | On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
> | 
> | >  In its report, the ERRC offers a number of| recommendations.

> | Their only concern seems their need to protect a minority
> of criminals.
> 
> Their concern seems to be to preserve the rights of
> individuals, the presumption of innocence and maitnatnace of
> due process and equality before the law. They never say or
> imply that anyone should be handled differently because they
> are gypsy. Not that gypsy criminals should be treated
> differently then non-gypsy criminals. On the contrary. They
> insist on the same treatment of gypsy criminals as non gypsy
> criminals, and innocent gypsies as innocent
> non-gypsies. 

The one thing that was *not* in the report was a showing that there was 
a difference in treatment. What has been posted so far is that Romanian 
police officials violate human rights against gypsies and that they should 
stop it. I tend to agree. However, to lay the claim that they are persecuted, 
you need to show that there is a difference between their treatment and the 
treatment of non-gypsy criminals. From my own limited knowledge, romanian 
law enforcement tends to violate *everybody's* human rights when they are 
suspects. If, as I believe, the problem is generalized, to seek to solve it 
only for one's own ethnic group is a source of further ethnic tension, not 
a real solution to it. These folks need to show that non-gypsy criminals 
are not treated in the same manner to justify ethnicizing the problem. 

The gypsies *do* have a higher crime rate, they *would* be hit harder by 
a general police disregard for human rights. But if they would attack it as 
a general disregard instead of a special problem of their ethnicity, they 
may find themselves with a wider (and winning) coalition to stop it. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,  wrote:

> You have to give them is DIGNITY:
> 
> Dignity by Recognition as Nation between Nations with a large degree 
> of Authonomy. 
> 
> Then you have to give them AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and/or some exclusive 
> Trade Privileges. In the 19 century Austria gives them trade 
> privileges and it worked.
>  
> If The NY Times is right there are 3.5M Roma in Romania. You could not 
> assimilate them because they are less educated than the rest.

non-assimilation, preferential treatment, and the ability to wiggle out 
of the daily trials of the rest of the population by virtue of their 
autonomy is a guaranteed recipe for continued ethnic conflict with frequent 
violent expression. Take a look at what affirmative action did to US 
blacks and I hope you will agree that nobody deserves punishment that 
badly. As for the trade privileges, enshrining one more example of an 
exception to the free market is not what Romania or any other country 
rising from socialism should be doing.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.