Forrás: http://www.nepszabadsag.hu/Scripts/get_doc.idc?ID=4821&iid=152
Engedély nélkül közölve.
-------------- részleges idézet eleje -------------

Összesen 63 milliárd forint értékű belterületi föld után jár részvény,
készpénz az önkormányzatoknak, legalábbis az ÁPV Rt. nyilvántartása
szerint [...]
Az ÁPV Rt. jogelődje, az ÁVÜ [...] a föld fizikai jellemzői szerint
kalkulált értéket egy, a vállalat eredményességét jelző indexszel
korrigálta az eladósodott cégek miatt az esetek nagyobb részében lefelé.
[...] Az önkormányzatok ebbe nem nyugodtak bele, az ingatlanok teljes
értéke alapján járó vagyonra tartottak igényt. Szakembereik szerint nem
méltányos dolog ugyanis az önkormányzatokat is felelőssé tenni a
területükön működő vállalatok rossz gazdálkodásáért [...]
Két, precedensértékűnek számító ítélet végül az önkormányzatok
győzelmével végződött [...]
Kézenfekvő volt az ötlet: kompromisszumot kell kötni az
önkormányzatokkal, fizetni kell, méghozzá többet az ÁPV Rt. által addig
kalkulált összegeknél, de kevesebbet az önkormányzatok igényeinél. A
települések így pereskedés nélkül, gyorsan pénzhez jutnak, és egyúttal
mérséklődik az ÁPV Rt.-t (s rajta keresztül a költségvetést) terhelő
kötelezettség is. 

A tárgyalássorozat megkezdéséhez már csak egy közvetítőre volt szükség. 

-------------- részleges idézet vége -------------
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

In article >,
CLARY Olivier > wrote:
| Forrás: http://www.nepszabadsag.hu/Scripts/get_doc.idc?ID=4821&iid=152
| Engedély nélkül közölve.
| -------------- részleges idézet eleje -------------

Olivier, ez eddig rendben van, de meg magamnak aki libinek
vallja magat sem eleg ez semmire. Az igazsag az hogy eleg
csunya ez az ugy, es kenytelen vagyok egyeterteni azzal aki
azt mondta hogy nehez elhinni hogy egy egyedi esetrol lenne
szo.

Istvan

Archive-name: hungarian/broadcast
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: broadcast
Last-modified: 1996/06/29
Version: 0.82
Posting-Frequency: every twenty days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Many thanks go to Andy Vadasz and Peter Soltesz, who compiled much of
the information shown here. This file is being maintained at the
archive <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/HU-broadcast.txt>;. A similar
compendium is also available from the HAL archives
<ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hungary/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/ftp/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>;,
with more related material under <http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/>;.

 The programme by the Radio Petofi is available real-time simulcast via
the Internet (the first such national broadcast according to them):
<http://www.petofi.enet.hu/reala.html>; (note that this adress is at
'enet.hu', signifying E-NET, which is distinct from 'eunet.hu' where
some other resources are to be found). That page has all the
information needed to get the sofware handling the 'realaudio' format,
or one can go straight to the source at <http://www.realaudio.com>;.

 Realaudio format recorded broadcast segments for some HungarianRadio
programmes are available thru <http://www.wrn.org/stations/hungary.html>;. 
The homepage for Radio Budapest (the external service of Hungarian
Radio) is at <http://www.eunet.hu/radio/>; - they have a lot of textual
information, including schedules and frequency tables for worldwide
broadcast.

 Computer-readable Hungarian language broadcast material from the Voice
of America is found under <http://www.voa.gov/programs/audio/>;; they
have other computer audio file formats for download beside realaudio as
well.

 Here is a listing of Hungarian language broadcasts (as of 28 May
1996), collected by Peter Soltesz <mailto:>.
Note that the Hungarian language broadcast of the Radio Free Europe
(which was shown in the original version I posted) has been
discontinued sometime in '95! Also, the Voice of America beam is
transmitted from outside America and can't be received there (despite
the earlier listing showing them with their nominal Washington, D.C.
location). However their Web server makes computer-readable recordings
available, as shown in the paragraph above.  I dropped the VOA entries
from here - for the full schedules see
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/hungarian-pgms> and for all the
frequencies <gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/langs-and-freqs>
(these files can be accessed thru <http://www.voa.gov>; as well as from
<ftp://ftp.voa.gov/>).

<<< Text version of database file follows: >>>
  ID, Type, FREQ, City, ST, PROG, DAY, Time, Address, Tel, Fax 
 KTYM , AM ,, INGLEWOOD , CA ,1,,,,,
 WVOF , FM ,, FAIRFIELD , CT ,2,,,,,
 WNDU , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WSBT , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WRSU , FM ,, NEW BRUNSWICK , NJ ,1,,,,,
 WCSB , FM ,, CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,
 WKTX , AM ,, CORTLAND , OH ,12,,,,,
 WKTL , FM ,, STRUTHERS , OH ,1,,,,,
 WELW , AM ,, WILLOUGHBY-EASTLAKE , OH ,1,,,,,
 WIBF , FM ,, JENKINTOWN , PA ,1,,,,,
 WMZK , AM , 680 , DETROIT , MI ,1, FRI , 2100-2200 ,,,
 WNYE , TV , 25 , NEW YORK , NY ,0.5, SAT , 1500-1530 ,,,
 TCI , CABLE ,, WESTCHESTER County , NY ,,,,,,
      , AM , 1380 , NEW YORK , NY ,1, SUN , 1200-1300 ,,,
 WQRP , FM ,, DAYTON , OH ,3, SUN , 0900-1200 ,,,
 WNVC , TV , 56 , FALLS CHURCH , VA ,0.5, SAT , 0800-0830 ,, 1-703-698-9682 ,
 CKJS , AM , 810 , WINNIPEG, MANITOBA , CN ,0.5, SAT , 2000-2030 ,, 1-204-477-1
221 ,
      , FM , 105.9 , NEW YORK , NY ,2, SUN , 1200-1400 ,,,
      , SW , 25 m ,, PA ,0.25, TH , 1645-1700 ,,,
 TELSTAR , SAT , 22 ,, NA ,,,,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, M-F , 1930-200 ,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, SAT , 1730-1800 ,,,
 ASC-1 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0,,,,,
 VATICANA , SW ,,, IT ,0,,,,,
 CBN , SAT ,,, NA ,0,,,,,
 CBC , SW ,, TORONTO , CD ,,,,,,
 BBC , SW ,, LONDON , UK ,,,,,,
     , SW , 3250 , BIRMINGHAM , AL ,1, D , 0700-0755 ,,,
          ,, 830 , CLEVELAND , OH ,,,,,,
 MAGYAR RA. , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 BUDAPEST , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 DEUTSCHE W , SW ,,, GE ,0,,,,,
 WCPN , FM , 90.3 , CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,

<<< end of database listing >>>

 Andy Vadasz <mailto:> posted the following:
+In a May 14 message, I reported (in part):
+
+> their current 9870 kHz will change to 9840 kHz starting May.21. Not clear
+>whether the change is for the entire 3 hour transmission (including
+>Hungarian and English language programs). 
+
+More recently the new arrangement has been posted on the "Radio Budapest"
+webpage: http://www.eunet.hu/radio/   To summarize. the North America beam
+is broadcast on 9840 and 11870 kHz with the following breakdown
+
+Starting time (UTC)     Language    Beam orientation
+00:00                   Hungarian    N.America East
+01:00                   English      N.America East
+01:30                   Hungarian    N.America West
+02:30                   English      N.America West
+
+In my area (Northern Virginia) the first two segments have been fair to good
+on 9840 kHz.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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=09=09TISZA ENSEMBLE'S TANCHAZ:=20

          Tisza Ensemble will be hosting a Tanchaz (Dance-House) on=20
          Saturday, October 12, 1996. The music&dancing will begin at=20
          7:30 p.m. and end at 10:30 p.m. There will be plenty of live=20
          music as well as teaching circles. You do not need to bring a=20
          partner and no dance experience is necessary. You may bring food=
=20
          or drink as an optional donation to the snack table.=20
          Admission is $4.00.=20

          DIRECTIONS:=20

          Starting Point Dance Studio, College Park, Md. Inside the
=09  Beltway.=20
          From I-495 take Route 1 South toward College Park. Go=20
          approximately 13-14 lights. After passing the UM complex, make a=
=20
          left at a light onto Calvert Rd. The studio is in the first=20
          building on your right, behind Clean&Lean Laudromat/Fitness
=09  Center=20

                                 * * * * * * * * * * *

          OTHER UPCOMING EVENTS:=20

          Saturday, November 2nd, Szentgerice Festival, Fairfax Unitarian=
=20
          Church. For information contact Mary & Bob Trip (703) 323-2504
=09  or Emory & Rita Lazar (703) 323-8293.=20

          Saturday, November 9th, Harmony Hall Performance. Dancing and=20
          teaching circles immediately following performance. For=20
          performance/admission information contact the box office (301)=20
          292-2893; TTY (301) 292-8203. Harmony Hall is located at 10701=20
          Livingston Road, Fort Washington, MD.=20



Szilvia Bal=E1zs

-- L=E1sd Tisza Egy=FCttes web oldal=E1t - Please visit the homepage of the
   Tisza Ensemble:

WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/Tisza
personal email     : 

Dear Tamas :

Please accept my thanks for your correction.  I'm a very novice at
learning your language.  Yes, the definite/ indefinite and
familiar/formal expression are the most fascinating features.  There are
two extremely different systems between Hungarian and Chinese.  Gotta
study harder and I believe tt I can manage it!  Would you like to help
me? If so, email me at .

Nayon szépen köszönöm

A friend from Hong Kong.
Sunny.

Wally Keeler > sensed that he is loosing againg, and
(returning to his usual insult-attack style) wrote:
>
>A mule in heat has more eloquence than you.

The only appropriate answer can be:

False, but it has more brains than you. (Based on your posts.)

And the only appropoetic answer:
             ^^^^^^^^^^^\
Practise that gold trick  \ For the new ones: I borrowed that from Wally
You slimy old tick,         \ cause he keeps asking for it.
Flinstoneless lighter,
Airheaded fighter.

It would be big gain,
If you had half brain.
Eat watermelon,
Leave me please alone.

Peter k Chong > wrote:

>As you may or may not know, I've voiced my support for a Uralic-Altaic or 
>even Turanian unity of languages on this newsgroup and others as well in 
>the past... Despite the fact I've read many documents and books pointing 
>to a common Turanian (even Sumerian) root to the Uralic and Altaic 
>tongues, why do so many scoff at the concept? All of the books I've read 
>about Uralic and Altaic languages state that the relationship between the 
>two families is tenuous at best and must be considered carefully. Apart 
>from that, they give few examples demonstrating the dissimilarity. Could 
>someone show me a more substantial proof that disproves the Turanian or 
>U-A unity? And more than just lexical differences!

You've got it backwards.  The dissimilarity doesn't need to be
demonstrated, it follows quite naturally from the fact that a Finn
doesn't understand Negidal unless he studies the language.

Proving they _are_ related, _there_'s the problem.  And then you also
have to proof that they are more related to _each other_ than either
is to any other language family...

May I suggest Bjo"rn Collinder "An Introduction to the Uralic
Languages", and Nicholas Poppe "Introduction to Altaic Linguistics",
both, as it happens, 1965.


==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~
                 |_____________|||

Diane Weightman wrote:
> 
> Hello,
>               Might anyone be able to tell me if Megye is a town and if
> so where it is?  I assume it is a town and have seen reference to it in
> a few documents.  Thanks in advance.  Any and all help would be greatly
> appreciated!!
> 
> Sincerely
> Diane
> --
> Diane Weightman
> 
> 
> :-)
Megye means "county"  For example, Budapest is in Pest Megye.  
HipCat
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

A.L.Redey wrote:
> 
> > >> Azt hiszem a sherif meg ott van.
> > >Tegnap en is ott voltam, de csak egy PC allitott meg, nem a Sheriff
> >
> > Nem Robin Hood volt az illeto?
> Inkabb Little John-nak latszott... :-)
> kAos

Dehogy volt Little John.  Maid Marian volt - csak meghizott! Sok volt a
rántott csirke.
HipCat
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

Peter k Chong > wrote:

>Hey there!

[snip]

>Despite the fact I've read many documents and books pointing 
>to a common Turanian (even Sumerian) root to the Uralic and Altaic 
>tongues, 

[snip]

>All of the books I've read 
>about Uralic and Altaic languages state that the relationship between the 
>two families is tenuous at best and must be considered carefully. 

I'm confused. MANY of the books you've read say they ARE related, and
yet ALL the books you've read say they most likely are NOT related.
(The phrase "tenuous at best" is equivalent to "probably
non-existent".)

On 10 Oct 1996 16:38:29 GMT,  (Gyorgy
Kovacs) wrote:

>Wally Keeler > sensed that he is loosing againg, and
>(returning to his usual insult-attack style) wrote:
>>
>>A mule in heat has more eloquence than you.
>
>The only appropriate answer can be:
>
>False, but it has more brains than you. (Based on your posts.)
>
>And the only appropoetic answer:
>             ^^^^^^^^^^^\
>Practise that gold trick  \ For the new ones: I borrowed that from Wally
>You slimy old tick,         \ cause he keeps asking for it.
>Flinstoneless lighter,
>Airheaded fighter.
>
>It would be big gain,
>If you had half brain.
>Eat watermelon,
>Leave me please alone.

Why are Hungarians all so weird? :) They make the worst movies and
tell the worst jokes... I'm Hungarian too btw before you flame me.

Balazs

From:  (T.M.Lutas): Thu Oct 10 1996
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII

>>Wally Keeler ) writes:
>>>What study has determined the higher crime rate?We don't want any wiggle
>>>room here. We need an air tight case before we can pronounce that a
>>>particular ethnicity has a higher crime rate than some other ethnicity.
>>>Remember that arrest rates are insufficient proof. 

>T.M.Lutas ) writes:
>>In general, you trust the professionals in the field unless you have been 
>>presented with compelling evidence that they are lying. There has been no 
>>evidence given and every chance that I've had to ask the question of the 
>>professionals, I've been told the same thing, yes, gypsies do have much 
>>higher crime rates. 

Wally Keeler ) writes: 
>Anecdotes do make for any grounds by which you can slander an entire
>community by accusing them of having higher crime rates, therefore the
>targetting and beatings are justified.

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
|Not what I said. Targetting is justified by higher crime rates to the
|extent that they exist and only in proportion to their higher level over
|other communities. Beatings are not justified under any circumstances other
|than to legitimately subdue a suspect who is a danger to the officers
|and/or the general public and then only as long as the danger exists. 

Unless the Romanian police have been trained in elements of human/civil
rights and their maintenance of those rights, then I will defer to the
"professionals in the field" (Amnesty International, Helsinki Watch, etc)
whose primary focus are on those very rights and they are trusted unless and
until there has been presented very compelling evidence that they are lying
or otherwise misleading. You claim that "every chance that [you've had] to
ask the question..." but did you ever ask the question of any Gypsy
professional, or Gypsy organ? Huh? Anecdotes and or gossip is insufficient
grounds to slander an ethnic community with higher crime rates. And you know
better than that.

No other ethnic community is being targeted. If they are, then no one from
that community is complaining. It is quite understandable that the victim of
racism will pronounce such. It is also understandable that a racist will
deny racism and disguise their racism in the cloak of other excuses; "They
are a community of thieves," etc. "Perception" of higher crime is not the
same as the actual fact that there is or is not higher crime, nevertheless,
of the forces of law and order are acting only on perceptions held by the
general population, and if that perception (Gypsies=criminals) is largely
unfounded or grossly exaggerated, then everything that follows is based on
racism. You have not produced a single bit of evidence supporting your
initial slander that the Gypsy community has a higher rate of crime thereby
warranting the targeting of the Gypsy community to the exclusion of any
other ethnic community, unless, of course, you have evidence that other
communities are being targeted. Do you?
>>When I was in Romania last (and from all indirect information I've
received 
>>nothing's changed) whatever con games I saw were fall run by gypsies.
> 
>Sometimes, entrepreneurial initiative is seen by some as a con, especially
>of those who are successful. 

I'm talking honest to god three card monty games in a couple of local 
variants. These were no-gray-area cons that were designed solely to 
separate money from sucker. They also have the effect of making the 
perpetrators highly unpopular. And unlike high level theft, street 
theft is very visible, very immediate. The reaction to any group that 
partakes in it in higher proportions than their population is likely 
to be very negative without that reaction being racist. 

>>While 
>>not scientific it's been my experience that whatever ethnic group is
running 
>>the street con games has more than its share of criminals. Is it
scientific? 
>>No. Is it a good indirect marker? Yes.
> 
>Not necessarily. Don't forget the Board Room con games of the
>Securitate/Defence millionaires which have siphoned off millions from
>Romania as opposed to the penny ante of the Gypsies

Political manipulation isn't handled by street cops or by mob justice in 
most cases. That (fortunately) should slow down quite a bit after the 
removal of most of the perpetrators as a result of the PDSR losing the 
elections. Of the universe of crime that is palpable to the average 
citizen minister so and so setting up an obscure regulation so that 
his goods escape customs duties may steal more than a three card monty 
game but it doesn't generate the fire, the passion of a foolish farmer 
who just gambled away the money he got for his last pig to some sharpies 
at the local flea market. 

>>As I said before, I'll get you 
>>whatever information I can dig up but you need to be reasonable about your 
>>standard of proof. 
> 
>You demanded a standard of proof regarding the report put out by the Roma
>Rights Group before you would believe certain aspects of it. Let's not
>have double standards here, nor double perceptions.

The Roma Rights Group sets up certain accusations against the Romanian 
system of justice, especially the police. They are in the role of the 
accusers here, not anyone else. The prosecution has always had a higher 
level of proof required of it than the defense in any civilized country 
(unless you count Turkey's system of justice as civilized). Would you have 
that change? You seem to mistake cross-examination for the opening of a 
new trial. 

I'm still waiting for you to set out what would constitute 
reasonable proof among the facts that would exist. What statistics are 
trustworthy and neutral, not only in your eyes, but in most people's eyes?

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Wally Keeler writes:
>>>I agree if there is a valid proof of higher crime communities. I 
certainly
>>>wouldn't take the word of the police -- they have a vested interest.

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
>>What is the vested interest of the police in saying that a particular 
>>community is high crime? I could understand a general overstatement in 
>>crime, that would lead to more money. But a particular community's crime 
>>rate would not lead to more money but merely a redistribution of it with 
>>all the officials losing money having a vested interest in uncovering the 
>> lie. 

Wally Keeler writes: 
>Police live in the community. They share the same perception
>(misperception?) that Gypsies have a higher crime rate. The police are
>largely Romanian, not Gypsy. Why wouldn't they share the same perception
>as the general population? They are there to enforce the perception, to
>act on the perception, and thereby get their kudos from the community.

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
|Not all communities have gypsies. In the fight for funding, all police 
|with low gypsy populations would be protesting that funds are being 
|misallocated and they deserve more funding. Such debates have not taken 
|place over the last seven years. This lack of protest is a sign that the 
|the funds have not been misallocated due to racism but there is a real 
|higher crime rate that is being combatted.

It doesn't take much funding to kick in a door, punch a Gypsy in the head 
and
drag him off to jail. The police chief and his three officers in one rural
town needs funding just to exist, so why not get the Gypsies to justify the
continued existence of a police force. There is no misallocation of funds. 
The
purpose is to keep the existing allocation and the Gypsies are easy to get 
--
none of the local Romanians/Magyars are likely to complain to anyone if a 
few
Gypsy teeth are knocked out. And the local villagers don't have to sully 
their
Christian consciences again when their police force acts as their proxy. 

Wally Keeler wrote:
>What would happen to the police chief of the towns where the villages
>burnings took place and he came out to announce at a town hall meeting
>that the Gypsies contribute no more to crime than Ion Averagescu. Guess
>who gets "lynched" figureatively speaking. That's a vested interest.

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
|The police in the town where the village burnings took place should have 
|caught gypsy criminals as quickly as they caught non-gypsy ones. The 
|perception of police inaction was the cause of the mob violence in the 
|first place. 

That is the conclusion of shallow perception. It is widespread. For example:

Miercurea-Ciuc, August 1992, rural purge and murder of Gypsies
County Public Prosecutor: Andrei Gabriel Burjan

Burjan said the attack on a small Gypsy community in Harghita County was a
"personal conflict, a sort of pub fight that had got out of hand, not an
ethnic conflict at all." The incident, he said, had been triggered by a 
bunch
of Gypsies who demanded to be served at the local bar before some "majority
Magyars." No one mentioned the more serious attack a year before in nearby
Plaiesii de Sus, in which two men died and 27 houses were destroyed. That 
also
had been described as a "personal conflict."
     "Such provocations are like pouring benzene on the tensions here," the
prosecutor said, undermining his insistence that this "pub fight" had no
racial dimension. The publican, a Magyar like most of his customers, had
turfed the Gypsies out. And "instead of behaving," they had responded by
enetering the plots of the Magyars, formerly collective land, and stealing
everything. I interrupted him to inquire if the Gypsies in Casin had 
received
any plots of their own since 1989.
     "Unfortunately they have not," Burjan conceded. "But this too was their
own fault. The law provides that anyone who worked on a co-operative for at
least three years is entitled to a share. The Gypsies never apply. They have
hundreds of children all the time and none of them, adults either, are ever
registered with the town authorities, as they are required to do by law."
Casin was home to fewer than five hundred people. The Gypsies there were 
long
settled, not seasonally hired hands. In such a small town, of course 
everyone
would know exactly who had worked in the local co-operative. But this was 
not
the point. "They never have the documention," the prosecutor explained. 
"They
have no proofs."
      "Do you mean that all the Gypsies (160 people rendered homeless) whose
houses were burned down were stealing corn that day?" asked Fonseca.
     "It doesn't matter," the prosecutor explained. "Every one of them has
committed crimes in the past. You see, the Gypsies have a consensus on 
crime.
They live by theft."
                             -- exerpt, Bury Me Standing
                                Isabel Fonseca

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:
|The police in the town where the village burnings took place should have 
|caught gypsy criminals as quickly as they caught non-gypsy ones. The 
|perception of police inaction was the cause of the mob violence in the 
|first place. 

The police in this village (as is the case in other villages) did 
investigate,
pursue and convict Gypsy criminals. They never took any action against the
Romanian/Magyar murders and arsonists. There was police action all right. 
The
only police action that has resulted has been targeted against the Gypsies.
Perhaps you can explain to me why no Romanian has been convicted of murder 
or
arson or assault in these many acts of mob violence. I don't think there is 
a
two or three year statute of limitation on arson or murder in Romania.

|Bad police work in the past 

and in the present.

|that favored gypsies is as much the culprit for those acts as the actual 
mob.

Present your proofs that Romanians have been arrested and convicted for the
acts of arson and murder in these village crime sprees.

|Who wants to take street revenge if they know that the police will ensure
|justice?

What Romanian/Magyar needs to take street revenge when they know that the
police, by proxy, will kick in the teeth of the Gypsies, knowing full well
that any Gypsy organs who complain about such treatment will be offhandly
dismissed with the phrase: insufficient proofs. Sound familiar?

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 (T.M.Lutas) wrote:
>>As I said before, I'll get you whatever information I can dig up but you
>>need to be reasonable about your standard of proof. 

Wally Keeler wrote: 
>You demanded a standard of proof regarding the report put out by the Roma
>Rights Group before you would believe certain aspects of it. Let's not
>have double standards here, nor double perceptions.

 (T.M.Lutas) wrote:
|The Roma Rights Group sets up certain accusations against the Romanian 
|system of justice, especially the police. They are in the role of the 
|accusers here, not anyone else. The prosecution has always had a higher 
|level of proof required of it than the defense in any civilized country 
|(unless you count Turkey's system of justice as civilized). Would you have 
|that change? You seem to mistake cross-examination for the opening of a 
|new trial. 

Cross-examination is for the trial. The Roma rights group presented prima
facie evidence of a pattern of behaviour by the police. (In an earlier 
report
they had done the same concerning elements of the judicial system) They have
called for an investigation. This is not a conviction or a trial. They ask 
for
an investigation and they have accumulated enough prima facie evidence
sufficient to have an investigation. You have set a standard of evidence so
high that it would be virtually impossible to even have such a preliminary
measure as an investigation, which BTW, has been continually turned down,
along with almost all investigations pertaining to the murders of Gypsies at
the hands of Romanians, however, there is always enough time and resources 
to
investigate all Gypsy crimes. Hmmm. 

|I'm still waiting for you to set out what would constitute 
|reasonable proof among the facts that would exist. What statistics are 
|trustworthy and neutral, not only in your eyes, but in most people's eyes? 

You are the accuser here, claiming that the Gypsy community has a higher 
rate
of crime than any other ethnic community. I would expect you to present the
very same proof that you expect of the Roma rights group concerning their
accusation. I have asked you several times to present your "facts", not your
nose. You are dragging your feet. Now present your "facts." I have been
presenting reports over the past year+, not just by the Roma rights group 
but
by other human rights organs. You have presented diddly squat to support 
your
slander against a specific ethnic group. So produce it, and failing that, 
then
I can see that we no longer have anything to talk about concerning this
subject, because you have proven yourself to be ill-informed about this
particular issue.

Hi!

I'm looking for penpals who are interested in swapping snail mail, ie.
postcard trading,etc... if you are interested, pls email me!

Rachel
--
"If something can go wrong, it will."

					Rachel Elisabeth Gibson
					

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T.M.Lutas ) writes:
>>If it were the police that were racist then the jurists would let them 
>>go at higher rates since the number of false arrests would be up for 
>>gypsies vis a vis ethnic romanians.

Wally Keeler writes:
>Stupid. You assume that jurists are not racist. In the deep south of the
>USA there were hardly any, if any, results of false arrest when blacks
>were arrested for raping white women, etc. It is not so simple-minded as
>you put it.

T.M.Lutas ) writes:
|Yet the report only attacks the police, not the jurists. Why is that? 

Because that is what the report is about. The report is not about the
ENTIRE JUDICIAL SYSTEM. The subject of that particular report was a
particular issue. You brought in the red herring subject of jurists, not
the report, not I.

|If the jurists are as racist as the police why wasn't that entered into 
|evidence in the report? 

Because you made a ludicrous presumption about jurists that I responded to.
This was not put into the report because it was not the subject of the
report. If you want to jump on the report for failing to include this or
that, then I jump onto your posts for failing to include ANY substantial
evidence to support your slander that the Gypsy community has a higher rate
of crime than other communities -- a slander that has been discounted by
the Romanian Ministry of the Interior. The racism of jurists could well be
the subject of another report. I already posted a CRISS report about the
use of language by court officials. Read it again.

|I suspect that the report either hasn't been very well thought out, is
|incomplete, or hasn't been laid out properly by you as its SCR presenter.
|I can't tell which.

I laid it out as it was presented to me, minus the cyber-route by which I
obtained it. If it is incomplete, then I would still give it more credit in
its investigative techniques than the sniffer you rely on, unless, of
course, your nose has received accreditation from an ivy-league university
of reknown.

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>In article >, 
 says...
>>>>You make the claim that the targetting exceeds the higher crime rate. 
>>>>Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is 
>>>>worthless. It does not good against racists and it provides an opening 
> 
>Wally replies: 
>>>You make the claim that the Gypsy community has a higher crime rate.
>>>Present the evidence. 
> 
>dbrutus excuses himself:
>>I'm not going to start blindly researching facts to fit your fancy, 
>>Set a reasonable standard for evidence and I will try to get it for you if 
>>it exists. My nose tells me that the higher crime rate exists ...

dbrutus replies:
|<collection of crime incidents deleted for irrelevancy to the point> 
|Hello Wally, I've asked at least a dozen times so far and yet no direct 
|response from you. 

Sorry, not a dozen (12) times -- your rhetoric exceeds the facts, something 
that is all too often characteristic of your posts.

|You've presented advocacy groups and their reports. 
|It's some pretty heady stuff. Yet it doesn't address the point of whether 
|or not gypsies in Romania have a higher, the same, or a lower crime rate 
|than ethnic romanians.

You obviously have a comprehension problem when you read, if indeed you do
read. I did not make the slanderous assertion that the Gypsy community has a
higher crime rate than the gadje -- you did. You were the first the express
the demand for stats to prove an assertion, which I, in turn, expected the
same from you concerning your slanderous assertion that the Gypsy community
has a higher rate of crime. All you could produce is your nose and street
gossip -- very insubstantial and unreliable stuff, especially to make such a
grandiose allegation against a community which exists all over Romania, not
just in a handful of urban centres. Unless your nose has sniffed in all the
valleys and back alleys of Romania, then your personal "radar" has as much
reliability as a weather report from the 1940's.

|I started off with the position that Romanian law enforcement is in need of
|an increased respect for the rights of suspects. I still maintain that. You
|keep dancing around the point. 

I don't dance around that particular point. I quite agree with that point.
No problem. Your contention of dancing is dismissed.

|Can't we find some neutral observer's statistics on crime rate and take
|that raw data to come to our own conclusions? 

There is no "raw data" supporting the allegation that the Gypsy community
has a crime rate higher than any other ethnic community. Indeed, the actual
population (census) of the Gypsy community is dubious, in spite of Elena's
deep and abiding faith in CIA statistics. I provided one source which
claimed that the Romanian Ministry of the Interior (Inferior?) asserted that
Gypsy crime was no higher than the gadje crime rate. It's not much, but you
have come up with diddly-squat in this regard.

|I'm not sure that the gypsies have such a special problem over any other
|ethnicity in identical circumstances. 

A punch in the face by a cop is the same whether the recipient is a Gypsy or
gadje. The salient point is the targeting. The Gypsy community is targeted
by the forces of law and order. The Gypsy community is scapegoated for
Romania's ills. The targeting is way out of proportion to the actual
necessity of reducing the crime rate of one ethnicity over another.

|You've presented advocacy groups and their reports. 
|It's some pretty heady stuff. Yet it doesn't address the point of whether 
|or not gypsies in Romania have a higher, the same, or a lower crime rate 
|than ethnic romanians.

The advocacy groups, unlike political-party-advocates, are not ambitious for
power, but for respect of human rights. The reports that I have presented
here, which you have dismissed out of hand, (and which has been dismissed by
the political class of Romania as irrelevent and inconsequential) delineates
a pattern of behaviour by the enforcement arm of the Romanian government --
the last report also delineated the use of language within the judicial
system and the effects that this language (which reflects the values and
thinking of the langauge users) has within the judicial system. This is not
"crime incidents" as you cavalierly dismiss.

|I could quite possibly be wrong. I'm willing to change my position based 
|on better facts but I'm not willing to continue a conversation when 
|everything has to be conclusion with no independent investigation 

The UN investigations post-1989 were quite independent and were conducted by
internationall respected jurists. I suggest you spend a bit of time reading
those reports. A social situation does not change within a couple years --
there have been changes in the situation for blacks in the USA but the
change did not take place overnight and the changes are still incomplete.

|and anybody who glances either to the left or to the right for an alternate 
|explanation than racism must be an enemy. 

Cut the paranoid posturing -- just because you present an alternate
explanation means you are stupid or ill-informed or mis-guided or have some
political agenda to fulfill -- not that you are an enemy. Your alternate
explanation which acknowledged that the Gypsy community has been "targetted"
was based on the groundless allegation that the said community has a higher
crime rate than the gadje.

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T.M.Lutas ) writes:
>>I asked around and found no evidence for that happening.

Wally Keeler scorned:
>Asking around -- what a scientific survey that is. 

T.M.Lutas ) justifies:
|I don't order my life around the off chance that I can discover
|persecution of the gypsies in Romania. What gypsy data that I do carry
|around in my head is a byproduct of questions that I do care about. Is
|Romania's law enforcement and judicial system just? Is the education
|system effective and not politically charged? Is the possibility of
|starting a business a reality for those who are not politically connected?
|Along the way to answering these questions to my private satisfaction, I
|do encounter information about gypsies but it is always a byproduct for
|me. 

As I said: "Asking around -- what a scientific survey that is." 

If all you have is an occassional by-product, then I would suggest that you
get ill-informed self better equipped about the issue before you take on
those who are better informed.

What you call "gypsy data" in your head is somewhat misinformation and I
would suggest that an empty head is far better to deal with than one
cluttered by prejudices -- that the Gypsy community has a higher crime
rate.

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T.M.Lutas ) writes:
>>For your scenario of ethnic romania crime rate equals 
>>gypsy crime rate to be true you would have to assume not only a racist 
>>police force but also a racist set of judges and a racist set of 
>>prosecutors. 

Wally Keeler writes: 
>Not unheard of. At anyrate the question was the accusation (slander?) that
>Gypsies have a higher rate of crime, ergo...

T.M.Lutas ) writes:
|And I'm still waiting to hear what you consider acceptable evidence. 
|When you answer my question, I'll try to answer yours. 

Any reasonable, independent, authoritative evidence will do.

Now answer the question: on what basis can you casually post that the Gypsy
community has a higher rate of crime than any other particular ethnic
community?

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T.M.Lutas ) writes:
|Iliescu, with his clear base of gypsy support, 

What clear support? Support your contention. 

|would have been criminally stupid not to root out judicial racism if it
|existed. And Iliescu is nothing if not very bright about serving his power
|base. 

We'll talk about this once you have established beyond anyone's doubt that
Iliescu has a "clear base of gypsy support."

As already mentioned, when the miners entered into Bucharest their targets
were demonstrators, students and Gypsies. Amnesty International and
Helsinki Watch, among others, have adequately documented that Gypsies were
among the miner's deliberate targets for criminal assault. And no one
forgets that Iliescu was effusive in his congratulations to the criminals
assembled in the stadium. He didn't say a word about the Gypsy victims,
either then or later or any time.

|And Kennedy/Johnson's record on racism and discrimination shows a clear 
|addressing of the problem. There has been no similar action taken by 
|Iliescu to combat this still to be proved Romanian racism. 

I provided you with a bibliography, and if you had any sincere concern
about this subject matter, you would read it and you would be in no doubt
of the anti-Gypsy racism that exists in Romania.

|This lack of service to a key block in his power base would be
|inconsistent with the core Iliescu value of maintaining power. What is
|your explanation for what would be an inconsistency in Iliescu if your
|assumptions are true? 

Your assumptions are false. Iliescu gets more support from the ethnic
Romanian rural/village/small town commuity than from urban centres. Most of
the mob violence against the Gypsies came from this constituency. His
action of having police forces act in proxy to the Romanian/Magyar mobs
will gain him support from this constituency and the numbers of this
constituency are far in excess of rural Roma. As for the Gypsies -- getting
punched in the mouth a few times by a cop is far preferential to being
lynched/murdered by a mob of Romanian/Magyar villagers.

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 (T.M.Lutas)
>>When I was in Romania last (and from all indirect information I've
>>received nothing's changed) whatever con games I saw were fall run by
>>gypsies.

Wally Keeler wrote: 
>Sometimes, entrepreneurial initiative is seen by some as a con, especially
>of those who are successful. 

 (T.M.Lutas)
|I'm talking honest to god three card monty games in a couple of local 
|variants. These were no-gray-area cons that were designed solely to 
|separate money from sucker. They also have the effect of making the 
|perpetrators highly unpopular. And unlike high level theft, street 
|theft is very visible, very immediate. The reaction to any group that 
|partakes in it in higher proportions than their population is likely 
|to be very negative without that reaction being racist. 

Gypsies=con artists. And they partake in it in "higher proportions than
their population." Is that so? And what is their definitive population? And
what proportion partake in it? Is there any research that has presented
conclusionary figures to support this contention or is it just that your
nose is sniffy up another stinkbomb? Perhaps you are also suggesting that
the sucker rate for ethnic Romanians is higher than other ethnicities. Now
you want to slander Romanian people because they just don't have the smarts
to avoid such OBVIOUS cons, that Romanians are sub-intelligent? C'mon, get
your feet on the ground.

Here is a section from BURY ME STANDING by Isabel Fonseca and it appears
quite familiar to my nose from the times I had been in Romania, and Poland,
and other nations. Nevertheless, this is particular to Micurea Cuic.
             ------------------------------------
     Back in the hotel, the pleasure of the first cold beer was wrecked by
the fact that a subsequent, identical bottle cost twice as much, and the
one that I bought for Corin was half as much again. It wasn't the seemingly
arbitrary price hikes that were galling: it was the shamelessness of the
bartender who boredly overcharged us. It could hardly be good business, but
cynicism, or fatalism, was stronger here than common sense, and everyone
seemed to cheat.
     In Sibiu, where Corin came from, the place where Gypsies did their
black-market dealing was known as Tsiggy-Diggy Street. (The Tigani, or
Gypsy, traders of Sibiu specialized in digital watches, hence "Tsiggy-
Diggy.") Tigan was used as a verb which meant, among other things, "to rip
off," just as its equivalent is used in the American slang "to get gypped."
     But in truth swindling was so common in Romania that it was
remarkable that the Gypsies, or anyone else, had managed to gain a
reputation for dishonesty. The little kerchiefed bunicuta, or granny, who
stood in front of the hotel selling green bottles of "kiwi juice" out of a
basket, was really and knowingly selling bottles of murky river water,
complete with hairy river wildlife. Her Johnnie Walker was tea and corn
syrup, and when you went to complain, she was gone. But most people didn't
feel pressed to cover up or disappear. The woman at the front desk asks for
four to six hours to place your long-distance call, and then, when you
check up on it four hours later, you watch as she tries for the first time
and connects you right away. It's your own fault, though, because you
hadn't thought to pay double or in hard currency, because you hadn't
established a claim -- that is, because you "had no proofs."
            ----------------------------------

The majority population has found a convenient scapegoat for all its ills -
- the Gypsy. Perhaps there is resentment and envy because the Gypsy is more
successful at petty rip-offs than Romanains. The Illiescu sewage control
would prefer that the Gypsy be scapegoated by the general population, and
the media oblige with their chronic stories of Gypsy malfeasance -- it
conveniently diverts attention from the million dollar rip offs of the
Romanian elite apparatchiks, the former nomenklatura. By concentrating
police resources and investigation personnel and funding to "legally"
persecute the alleged higher-crime-rate Gypsy community, the millionare
criminals have carte blanche to pillage the entire community. You play into
their hands with your wilfull and stubborn turn a blind eye to systemic
racism in the forces of law and order, and you do this (and all too many
others) by willfully ignoring the accumulating evidence gathered and
presented by astute organs (within and without Romania).

 (T.M.Lutas)
>>While not scientific it's been my experience that whatever ethnic group is
>>running the street con games has more than its share of criminals. Is it
>>scientific? No. Is it a good indirect marker? Yes.

And that applies equally to the Romanians conducting their rip-offs in
hotels, outside hotels, and other places. Very interesting that have been
focussing exclusively on the petty crime of Gypsies while ignoring the equal
amount of petty crime of Romanians. Why is that? 
 
>>Is it scientific? No. Is it a good indirect marker? Yes.

Even if you do have to say so yourself. It is not a good indirect marker.

>Not necessarily. Don't forget the Board Room con games of the
>Securitate/Defence millionaires which have siphoned off millions from
>Romania as opposed to the penny ante of the Gypsies

|Political manipulation isn't handled by street cops or by mob justice in 
|most cases. That (fortunately) should slow down quite a bit after the 
|removal of most of the perpetrators as a result of the PDSR losing the 
|elections. 

Oh yes. SIMPLE politics. There is the political party of the bad guys and
there is the party of the good guys. And yes, the party of the white hats
will get elected and lo and behold, let the goof times roll. Gimme a break.

|Of the universe of crime that is palpable to the average 
|citizen minister so and so setting up an obscure regulation so that 
|his goods escape customs duties may steal more than a three card monty 
|game but it doesn't generate the fire, the passion of a foolish farmer 
|who just gambled away the money he got for his last pig to some sharpies 
|at the local flea market. 

And the Iliescu regime has found this to be a convenient state of affairs.
Gypsies are such convenient scapegoats -- the Romanian population would
never dream of running to defend their civil rights, not Gypsy rights, civil
rights.

In article >  (Istvan 
Szucs) writes:
>meg magamnak aki libinek vallja magat sem eleg ez semmire.

A "háttér" szó (a Népszabi címből) nem jelenti, hogy mindenre van
megnyugtató magyarázat, pont fordítva: érdemes megnézni és elemezni
azt az esetet, ami most fény alá került, benne sok minden tipikus és
nagyon elszomorító az ország jövőjére nézve.

Például, hogy egy-egy városka önkormányzata annyira rosszul állt
pénzügyileg, hogy inkább gyorsan kellett egy félmegoldás, minthogy
vártak volna egy tisztességes bírósági döntést. Vagy hogy elhitték
mind, hogy az állammal szemben nincs esélyük, csak azon az egy
Vektor társaságon keresztül, ami tudatja magáról, hogy valahogy
(de hogyan?) ez már kétszer is sikerült neki.

Aztán hogy jött egy ismert csaló magát ügyvédnek adva és hogy több
tíz milliárdos tétből sikerül kipréselnie néhány száz milliót,
az már engem kevésbé zavar... (Éppen néhány perccel ezelőtt olvasok
a http://www.france2.fr -nél a Tiberi feleségéről /Tiberi az új,
kevéssé ismert párizsi polgármester amióta Chiracbol elnök lett/,
aki az Essone megye megbízásából valami rövid tanulmányt készített
egészen aránytalan árért - szóval a Tocsik csak segít MO-nak beillesz-
kedni a nyugateurópai képbe :-( )

>kenytelen vagyok egyeterteni azzal aki azt mondta hogy nehez elhinni
>hogy egy egyedi esetrol lenne szo.

Ebben biztos vagyok én is. Csakhogy ez a légkör, "mindenki korrupt,
aki hatalmon van és volt", csak növeli az esélyeit a szélsőségeseknek,
akik még nem voltak hatalmon és tehát még "tiszták".

Üdv:
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

In article >,
cristian > wrote:

> On 2 Oct 1996, Istvan Szucs wrote:
> 
> > I love it when someone volountarily gives up all
> > credibility. 
> > Congratualations for disqualifying yourself from all
> > meaningful conversations.
> > Istvan
> 
> I am sure that your veiled hate of Romanians and the spreading of poison 
> qualify you plenty for 'meaningful conversation' !
> 
> Lucky we only have a few anuses like you and Mr. Albu spreading their
> noxious writings around. Else Transylvania would be worse than Bosnia
> by now.  

Unfortunately, one of the people who spread noxiousness is yourself. You 
can take your general position without being noxious, or even particularly 
unpleasant. You do your own cause more harm than good with your obscenities 
and displays of barbarity. Or perhaps it is on purpose...

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,
Balazs Boros > wrote:
>
>Why are Hungarians all so weird? :) They make the worst movies and
>tell the worst jokes... I'm Hungarian too btw before you flame me.
>
>Balazs

I don't think you ever heard a Scottsman telling jokes, and never saw a Serbian
movie. There are some Hungaians who are weird, but not more than in any other
nation.
GK