> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: Forradalom/szabadsagharc ( 19 sor )
> The term "szabadsagharc" is used in more formal treatment of the subject
> I think.  Not as a replacement for revolution, but as an addition (i.e.,
> "forradalom es szabadsagharc").
> In English, I hear more often the word "uprising" in connection with '56
> than "revolution."  This is also the term Imre Pozsgai used
> ("nepfelkeles") when he was the first of the former Communist leadership
> to call '56 something else than "counter-revolution."  I kinda' like the
> term "popular uprising" and perhaps it might be a good compromise term
> between the pro- and anti-"szabadsagharc" camps.  I hope you all agree
> it was indeed a popular uprising, besides just a revolution.

No doubt it was a popular uprising, a revolt, a revolution -- the
criteria for applying these terms are met. I'm not happy with
"ne1pfelkele1s" because it was a watered-down compromise offered by a
self-promoting communist honcho (one who proved his lasting
unpopularity through two elections now) but at least it's
descriptively correct. However, the juxtaposition "forradalom e1s
szabadsa1gharc" does bring 1848-9 into mind, and precisely the sense
of "szabadsa1gharc", namely "war of independence" that I objected to
all along.  As far as the other sense of "szabadsa1gharc", namely
"fight for freedom" is concerned, 1956 was obviously that.

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Kornai ( 92 sor )

An altogether remarkable debut from someone who never posted on this
list before. I sincerely hope "janoskiss" is another product of
Andra1s Pellionisz' sickly mind, for the alternative hypothesis, that
antisemitic mud-slinging is proper Hungarian behavior, is so much
worse.  For $10 a month AOL provides a login name to all takers,
without attempting to verify whether the login name is in any way
related to the real name of the person. Just as with "Andra1s Szu3cs"
I challenge "Ja1nos Kiss" to provide us with any evidence of his
existence beyond the virtual one: address, phone number, drivers'
license -- anything one can go out and verify. To hide behind the
anonymity of AOL accounts would betray a degree of moral insanity that
is comparable only to the  farce.
Come "Ja1nos", rise to the challenge, be a man.

> Kornai is jewish.
As a matter of fact, he isn't. I am delighted to be mistaken for a
Jewish person, in fact I consider it a singular honor to be included
among the chosen people, even if chosen not by the God of Abraham and
Isaac but someone like you. With enemies like you, I'm in good
company, even if the state of Israel would laugh me off I wanted to
claim Jewishness.

> Lived on Hungary. Lived very well!
"Ja1nos", what do you know about it? My salary was below Ft5k/month,
and like every other junior researcher (tudoma1nyos sege1dmunkata1rs)
at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, I was forced to do odd jobs (which
ranged from translation to construction work) just to stay afloat.
Never had an apartment, or even a car. My prize possession was a
sizable library (5,000 volumes, mostly paperback, no rarities or otherwise
expensive items), and no, I didn't have a fat bank account either (or
money stashed away or otherwise invested).

> His father belonged (and today also belongs) to the "ruling class".
In what way? This is bordering on the ridiculous, but I'm sort of
interested in the details of the pathology of our "Ja1nos". Explain
what you mean, I'm really interested.

> He sent his boy to Stanford.
He didn't. I came to Stanford on a fellowship provided by Stanford
university (and in case you wonder, I was awarded similar fellowships
by MIT, UMass, and UTexas as well).

> Kornai liked Kadar's Hungary and feeled nostalgy in
> Stanford because he lived on Budapest very well.
Wrong premise, wrong conclusion.

> But since 1989 the old "ruling class" feeled danger because they
> know that many-many hungarians did not like communists.Therefore it
> was good for Kornai to go to Stanford.
The fact that I went to Stanford in 1986 will not detract too much
from the beuty of this story...

> And was feeling safe.After few years he liked
> Stanford well, but Budapest was missing for him.
After this uncanny insight you demonstrated as far as my finances are
concerned, now we are treated to another piece of clairvoyance, this
time about my innermost thoughts and desires. Surely there is only One
who has this kind of insight, and I wouldn't want to invoke His Name
in vain, but I feel better and better about being Chosen.
Unfortunately, the One would also be putting forth the truth, not this
nonsense "Ja1nos Kiss" is putting forth.

> Kornai wanted to convince himself therefore that every hungarian is an
> antisemitic.
I didn't/don't want to, and I didn't/don't believe so. I think there is
a certain amount of antisemitism in Hungary, roughly coextensive with the
few percent of the electorate who vote for Csurka/MIE1P, but that's
about it.

> This is why he wrote few years ago into forum that
> "szabadsagharc elmaradt", freedomfight was not there in 1956! He wanted
> to read angry replys from hungarians,so that he will convince himself
> that hungarians are antisemitic and therefore he can not go back.
Kedves "Ja1nos" (Andra1s?) you should steer clear of psychoanalysis.
It's a Jewish thing anyway, and you fail to display the slightest
talent.

> No body told antisemitic things about Kornai when he first wrote that
> Freedomfight was not there in 1956. Kornai wanted to get angry replys and
> wrote hundreds and thousands of lines. But every body wanted to explain
> him the freedomfighters with patiently.He was not interested. He is not
>  interested now as well.
And now our spanking new poster, , displays
this wonderful knowledge of events long past in net.history.

> After few year an american women married Kornai.
What's wrong with you "Ja1nos", aren't you getting any? Tell us something
about your personal life, are you married? Where do you live? On the net?
In Andra1s Pellionisz' brain? In the net/brain institute?

> May be jewish but not hungarian for sure.
Ah, isn't it sheer delight to see this level of discourse unfolding in
front of our eyes? Truly up to the highest standards of European and
American debate.

> Kornai will not go back!Going to live on
> Budapest is very difficult for Kornai.For her it can not be good at all.
This clairvoyance thing is getting out of hand. First it was the past,
and my own thoughts and desires. Now it is the future.

> Now, Kornai does not want so strong to get antisemitic replys, because
> he knows that he is in america because she can not live on Budapest!
On this one you are right. Indeed I don't want such antisemitic replies.
Nor do I think that any of my serious opponents (by that I mean Pe1ter Hidas,
E1va Balogh, and other actual persons, not figments of Andra1s Pellionisz'
imagination) would want this.

> Now he "debates" because he wants people forgetting how ugly he
> behaved! It is imidge-problem of Kornai.Like O.J. after he was
> acquitted, now he wants his imidge that he is a good guy!Wants to
> find "the real killer"!Kornai wants to find "the real evidence" that
>  freedomfight was not there in 1956!
No. What I asked for was "real evidence" that a war of independence
has taken place, quite a difference. As a matter of fact, I didn't
bring up the whole issue, Andra1s Pellionisz did. Ask him (or,
equivalently, look deep inside and ask yourself) who cares and why.
Back in 1991/92 the whole issue was triggered by the insufferable
posturing of another fellow ultrarightist and avid defender of the war
criminal Ba1rdossy. I sort of agree with Jancsi Czifra that at this
point the whole discussion is pretty pointless, and were it not for
the insistence of the virtual army of Andra1s Pellionisz, who clearly
has (have?) a stake, I wouldn't have bothered to reopen this debate.


> O.J. will find the "real killer" if he sees in a mirror. Kornai
> will (perhaps?) know how badly he is hurting hungarians if he
> "sees in a mirror". This was a good idea from Szuch! Much better
> than wasting time to showing him a million evidences! The mirror that
> Szuch was showing was not very good. I will be showing a better mirror:
>
> Andra1s Kornai writes to a jewish internet list this letter:
>         "My dictionary (webster) says that "holocaust" comes from greek
> "holokauston". Dictionary: "a burnt sacrifice or offering, the whole of which
>  was sacrificed by fire". I Andra1s Kornai (jewish) stand by my statement
>  that "holocaust was not there"! It is very clear, "holo" is translated
> "whole".
> It is a fact of history that there was no holocaust because not the "whole"
> jewish people died! If you want calling it holocaust, fine with me, but make
>  sure that every jew dies! You can not call it holocaust if not enough jews
> die.
>  It is also a fact in history that even if those who died were not all
> "burnt".
> In fact, the reason of dieing was fire in a very little cases, perhaps 10%
> or less, since jews were gassed away most frequently, or shooted by gun.
> Military killing by shot guns is not "burning them". I am glad that
>  historians agree with me in this! It is true that jewish were burned after
> they died of gassing but the cause of dieing was not burning. Let us be
> precise!
"Ja1nos", your drivel is going to fall back on your head -- those who live in
glass houses shouldn't throw stones and those who expectorate whouldn't aim
straight up. There is a well-agreed common definition of the Holocaust, and
aside from those who who deny it (and whose "arguments" will not be dignified
by a response here) there is massive agreement that historical fact matches
this definition. There is also a well-agreed common definition of "war of
independence" and in fact I took the trouble to spell it out in my postings
(again I urge those interested to check out FORUM 461-476 for the original
debate). I argued that 56 didn't meet this definition. The rest (including
all the references to OJ) are just offensive drivel designed to push the
buttons of everyone reading the list. I would like to kindly ask the other
readers NOT to jump and let the author bury this rampant antisemitism under
the debris of a "was OJ guilty?" debate.

[more drivel deleted]
>         With full respect,
>         Andra1s Kornai"

"Ja1nos", I resent your method of putting my name under your drivel.
It's bad enough that you didn't sign your piece, but this phony
quotation is clearly designed to confuse the issue of who's saying what.
Come out in the open, and say who you are.

Andra1s Kornai

The letter was mirroring what Kornai wrote that "szabadsagharc elmaradt", the
freedomfight was not there in 1956. He indeed wrote dirty things about the
most saint time of hungarians.Maybe jewish Kornai can write dirty things
about our most saint time.But if a mirror of his dirty letter shows here than
the hungarian shuld be forbidden from "Hungary" list!
   Is this "Hungary" list a good place for hungarian jewish people to say
dirty things about our most saint time? And hungarian hungarians must be
staying in silense?Enough!

Eva:

>And there is one more observation. As somebody rightly pointed out a few days
>ago (and I also mentioned it briefly but perhaps didn't emphasize the fact
>enough) the Hungarian word "szabadsagharc" has at least two meanings: (1)
>fight for freedom and (2) war of independence.

Yes, I think this might be the crux of the issue: inadequate translation
between the two languages.  This is not the first and not the last thing
that does not lend itself to accurate translation.  Like in the case of
"szabadsag".  English has two words for it: freedom and liberty.  How to
translate back those two words into Hungarian?  But then when it comes
to the word "love", we make up for it because we have two words for
that: "szeretet" and "szerelem".

Anyway, I thought about '56 again, and I think it started out as a
revolution (or uprising, if you will) and it actually won in the sense
that the people accepted the new Nagy Imre government.  So much so, that
normal life was to resume on Monday, November 5.  When the Russians
attacked on the 4th, they were attacking a legit government and the
resistance to that attack -- however brief and sparse -- can
legitimately be called "szabadsagharc".  It was then no longer a
revolution, or uprising, in my opinion.  It was a defensive war against
an agressor.  I think it was somewhat similar to the defensive war of
Slovenia and Croatia against the agression of the Serb Army after those
two countries declared their independence.  Of course in that case the
agressor was forced to retreat, but then the odds were different.

Joe

George:

>I would formally request that Mr Kiss be asked to furnish evidence of the
>article he claims was written by Andras Kornai.

Maybe I am naive, but I thought Kiss meant that letter to be a parody of
sort: how Kornai _might_ write a letter.

>Mr Kiss is unwilling or unable to prove otherwise, I would suggest that the
>list owner terminate Mr Kiss's subscription to the Hungary list.

Subscription to the list is only for automatic mailing of incoming
letters to the subscribers.  One does not have to be a subscriber to
write into the list.  In fact I am not a subscriber, either.  I read the
letters in the Usenet and write them to the 
address.

Joe

>I am looking for contacts with Americans living in Hungary.  Would
>like inputs on the pluses and minuses of living in Hungary.  Am also
>looking for a senior level position with an American firm in Hungary.
>Have a PhD in materials engineering and am currently a Senior Manager
>at the Kennedy Space Center.

I am always curious what is it in Hungary that attracts Americans so
much as to consider it as their retirement place.  I can understand
those, who have some family connections, of course, but hearing all the
bad news from there lately, even those connections are less and less
enough.  Perhaps we need to hear something good from outsiders about
Hungary sometimes to regain our optimism.

Joe Pannon

>> Since the mailing of the above letter, the illegal Draft Law prepared by the
>> Slovak government has been approved by the Slovak Parliament. Thereby
>
>As of 11/7, the draft Law on State Language has n-o-t been approved by
>the Slovak Parliament. Horn and Meciar are to meet in Berlin on 11/10
>to discuss the draft. If passed, the Law would become legal, but it may
>be challenged as unconstitutional. Slovakia's Parliament is to discuss
>the draft Law later in November.
>

Now, it's reality. There was no much hope it would fail to pass
through the parliamentary voting machinery where Meciar has 86
deputies that never failed to approve anything he submitted to them.

The language law passed 108 against 17 with 17 "abstentions". After
several sources in the Slovak-L newsgroup/list, the voting circus
was impressive. Deputies had to proclaim "I am voting for/against
the law" or "I abstain to vote about the law". The parliament
chairman then announced "The deputy X.Y. voted ..." All that over
130 times.

The post-communist Party of Democratic Left voted in favour of
the law and so did the Democratic Union, the party of the Meciar's
former allies in his HZDS, now renegades, who claim a liberal
orientation.

Deputies for the Christian-Democratic Movement refused to take
position and to express themselfs using one of the three formulas.
The first one, L. Pittner, former Interior Minister, said that since
the opposition's remarks weren't taken into account, he will not vote
about such a law. It was counted as a vote against, but when the
other deputies pronounced the same sentence, it was counted as
abstention.

After one observer, one deputy probably escaped to the mascarade,
the Chairman-Minister-Deputy Ducky who was in the hall together
with other deputies, and when the Parliament Chairman Gasparovic
asked whether "all voted", he kept silent.

So now there is a language law. Individuals can get a fine up to
Sk100k (about $3000) and organisations up to Sk1m (about $30k)
for violating the language law. It can be violated by just anything,
like using a foreign word when a Slovak equivalent exists, or by
broadcasting foreign text without translation, showing even a Czech
movie without dubbing or at least titles, and so on.

Let's also remark that the maximal fine is the same for the
violation of the nuclear safety, which shows the degree of the
social danger that foreign words represent for the Slovak society;-).
It means that like under the previous totalitarian regime, everybody
will violate a law, everyday, and only those who will be found
anti-Slovak, non-conformist, or anti-Meciar, will be fined.

However, I find the consequences of the language law to be less
important than the fact that two opposition parties voted for it.
The cohesion of the anti-Meciar opposition may suffer by this move
right now when it's more important than ever to forget about all
national stuff and to save what's left of agonising democracy
in Slovakia.

There is a little chance this law to be suspended by the
Constitutional Court. Of course, it's anti-constitutional, and
contrary to the Slovakia's international engagements. However,
even if declared contrary to the Constitution by the highest
legal instance, it's not sure Meciar will care about. Famous became
his words about the Constitutional Court as an "ill element on the
political scene" and his coalition is violating the laws and the
Constitution at least once a week since one year now.

Roman Kanala

In article >,
 writes:

>Dear Colleague,
>
>Yesterday, the Slovak Parliament has passed a "language police" law.



Dear Prof. Liptak,

Reading your text that you suggest to send out as a petition to
a number of political representatives, I would like to formulate
a couple of objections regarding its contents.

There indeed are several factual imprecisions and exaggerations.
For example, you mention that "the jailing of an Italian opera
singer, for singing in Italian", while as far as I know, a jail
penalty is not expected as coercitive action to assure the execution
of the law. Also, I am not sure whether the "language police" is
expressely mentioned in the law, and have an impression it to be
left to be elaborated in ulterior execution directives that will
tell in detail how to assure the practical execution of the new
legal norm.

While I find, like many Slovak intellectuals in Slovakia and abroad,
the language law unnecessary, and in its consequences anti-Slovak
and harmful to both the law consciousness in Slovakia as well as
to the image of Slovakia abroad, I am not sure whether the form you
suggest is the best available mean how to exercice the right of
taking position, among others, because it's formulated from
Hungarian national positions. There indeed are Slovaks who find the
law to be contrary to the Constitution and the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights.

However, I would like to assure you of my sympathy for your concern
about Slovakia's unfortune and the destiny of its inhabitants. I only
respectfully suggest you to reconsider the steps you are about to
take and to better anchor your formulations to the facts.

With expression of my best regards,

Roman Kanala

I wonder how this got here from Kornai:

>Back in 1991/92 the whole issue was triggered by the insufferable
>posturing of another fellow ultrarightist and avid defender of the war
>criminal Ba1rdossy.

Could you elaborate on this a bit?  Who are you talking about?
Not believing in Bardossy being a war criminal equates to being an
ultrarightist?  Frankly, I don't think Hungary, given its geopolitical
situation, could have stayed out of the war.  If it wasn't Bardossy,
somebody else would have declared it on the Soviets.  I can easily see
that it was looked at by the government at the time as the only means to
preserve some samblance of independence and holding on to the
territories returned by the Vienna decisions.  This assumption is also
supported by J. F. Montgomery's memoire, written after his return from
Budapest as the American Ambassador there.

Your post facto wisdom about it is nothing more than Monday morning
quarterbacking.

Joe Pannon

Roman Kanala wrote:

>There is a little chance this law to be suspended by the
>Constitutional Court. Of course, it's anti-constitutional, and
>contrary to the Slovakia's international engagements. However,

Before the Slovak-Hungarian state treaty was signed, I expressed my
doubts about how such treaty could be enforced.  I can see that the
garantee of borders can be and its violation would be a clear enough
case for everybody to see.  Not so with the minority rights.  Meciar and
his supporters, like that Igor Gazdik in the Slovak list, will say the
Hungarians have too much rights even after this law.  So what good are
such treaties for?  It's obvious, that Slovakia was pushing for it to
garantee its borders, not for wanting to do anything for the minorities.
Hungary on the other hand went along in the hope of securing a better
treatment for her own ethnics in Slovakia.  Out of this deal only
Slovakia got her part.  I think if Meciar does not want to change that
law as it stands, Hungary should declare it a violation of the signed
treaty and abrogate the same.  This should also serve as a warning sign
to the treaty planned with Romania.  Unfortunately, I don't think the
current Hungarian government will have the guts to do anything about
it.

Joe Pannon

You mixed up "Legy jo mindhalalig" (Moricz) hero, if I remember well,
Nyilas Misi, with the low-case nemecsek from "Pal utcai fiuk" (Molnar).
Never mind, it can happen to all of us.


>    Now my name is spelled with lower case like Nemecsek's
>  in the famous book "Be good until you die". I hope non-Hungarian
>  natives will not misunderstand it, this book has nothing to do
>  with Hungary 1956.
>     Also George may not know who the Hungarian Nancsi neni is.
>  Well, she corresponds to the "redneck" in the southern part of US.
>     Yeeeh, one more: I need 20-40 lines story about the Suez Canal
>                                          Dr.Dr.K.S.

I don't think I was striving to take away anybody's
right for anything, you seem to be jumpy for some reason.
I  lecture no more, than anybody else on this list. I'm
giving my opinion, like anybody else. Am I allowed?
I still think I made a point, and you had no valid
- but fairly unpolite - argument against it.

I'm attacking no paper tiger, as on this list there
are/were advocates of keeping people from mixing, that was
the message of the original post about an allegedly newly
discovered indian tribe.



>
> Eva Durant gave us another lecture on how we should order our values.
>
> >In a genuinly democratic society everyone is free to keep
> >and practice whatever culture they want to.
> >The problem is when you claim to be member of a group
> >purely by your genetic inheritence; it is also impossible.
> >There is no such a thing as a pure Hungarian, or pure English, or
> >pure Jewish, whether you like it or not, whether it is
> >"Good" or "Bad". It is a fact. I'd like to be able to
> >be proud to be a decent human being, with a particular
> >culture and inheritence - if I or anyone else happen to be
> >interested in that sort of thing.  The first part should be
> >the determining factor of my identity, not the second.
>
> This is becoming tiresome. She can be whatever she chooses to be but
> should kindly grant similar rights to others.
>
> I have not heard anyone on this list making claims of genetically
> inherited purity. She attacks a paper tiger and obfuscates the fact
> that I can very well choose to be VERY Hungarian or VERY Jewish
> or whatever. If it pleases me, I can make that part the determining
> factor of my identity. Many do just that, have always done that and
> presumably will continue to do that.
>
> Ms. Durant may want to ask herself why that is so. Marx has, no doubt,
> solved this problem too.
>
> -------------------------------------
> Name: tiha von ghyczy
> E-mail: 
> Date: 11/16/95
> Charlottesville, Va.
> -------------------------------------

I've heard 1848 called "forradalom es szabadsagharc".
(revolution and war for liberty)
I think it was a revolution, as it's aim was to change
a predominantly feudal system, to a bourgois-democratic system
following the french route. It later became a fight for freedom,
or independence from the austrians in the defence of the
revolution. It could be also called a civil war, if there were
Hungarians fighting on the side of the habpsburgs.

the "name" for 56 is more contraversial, as the aims
were less clear. If the fight was for a new system,
a democratised socialism, it would have been revolution.
Restoring a system that existed before cannot be called
revolution.      A fight for independence from
the Soviet Union can be called freedom fight.
If it was big enogh to be classified as a war,
than it was war of independence, but also a civil war,
as hungarian citizens took part on opposing sides.

It depends how you define the words, revolution, freedom fight,
etc.  For the same reason I cannot call the "velvet" changes
revolutions. They brought independence and changed
the system, but they did not create  "new" systems, that never
has been before in these countries.

>   I cannot go to India or Kenya or France and claim any
> connection to those peoples and places, and for me to do so would be silly.
 Yes
> we are all human and should therefore respect each other and help each other
> when needed, but that is not an arguement of destrying each other with
 kindness.
> There is nothing wrong with saying, " I respect you and if you need help I'll
> be there, and we can talk and learn from each other, but I have a society and
> nation that I belong to, and that is not something I want to share totally an
d
> openly, since that would destroy it."

Where would you start? FRom the very beginning humans
influenced each others cultures, and mixed with their neighbours.
Since the written chronicles we know all the good sides
(new, better methods of production, communication, medicin etc)
and the bad sides (lot's of people being killed, one group
forcing it's culture on others, or forbidding it to others).
Isolation doesn't work, if people are aware of an other culture,
they want to know it, use it.


We can and shold help each other more
> with efforts like that in Somolia and should have done more in Ruhwanda.
 Thatis
> not the same as opening your society to being overwhelmed by influences from
> around the world.  That is like taking every homeless person who meet into
 your
> house and letting them decide whcih holidays you'll celebrate, and what
> religion you'll worship.  You are not expected by anyone to go that far - you
> don't have to give up who you are.  You can help those people find work, and
>  bul ild
> build them a home, but you don't haver to give them yours.
>
> Paul

USA, UK, Australia, etc. were open countries, and all those who
were interested, kept their own culture, while usually also
acquiring their hosts culture.   No hosts' religion or holidays
were overhelmed, since the  (very) original inhabitants were violated.
When the newcomers are treated equally, they have no violent
urge to take over the host's culture.
However, in times of economic hardship, they are blamed for
all ills of the hosts society, and times are ripe for
fundamentalist cringing to ancient customs and religions
as a salvation on both, the hosts' and the newcomers' side.
by concentrating on the differences, people are drawn to
separate camps and are the pawns in the hands of warlords
etc. see ex-Yugoslavia. Is this really what you want?
I don't think  there is a place on this Earth where
people live separately, but in a lot of places they
still manage to live side by side or together peacefully,
until the mostly economic circumstances change...
there again, if hungry, or persecuted, people were known
to attack other tribes, even far away ones...

Dear Colleagues,

Today the New York Times published our letter on the Slovak language law,
this week USA Today will publish a letter by Andrew Simon, the president of
the Hungarian Anti-Defamation League, about the attack on the Hungarian
schools in Romania.

In Kanada, you can obtain all the E-Mail addresses on the political leaders
and the media from: ,  ,


In EUROPE: One important E-Mail address in the UK is:

People working on making the European Hungarian Lobby(HL) more effective
include:
, , 

In the Far East, where the Tokyo Times has already published two of our
articles, now the HL is beginning to organize.
Contact:

In an other development, nine environmental organizations, including the
Greenpeace and WWF have joined the Hungarian side as "friends of the Court"
in The Hague. At the same time, the Slovak construction lobby and it's main
financial beneficiary (Miroslav Liska), after having appropriated Hungary's
border river in 1992 and after having gained $200 million yearly from the
electricity so obtained, now wants the victim to pay compensation to the
robbers, because they intended to make even more, by operating the reservoirs
in the "peak-shedding mode", which in plain English means: flashing it
periodically like a water closet. The fight in The Hague will be one of our
jobs in 1996.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

The Budapest University of Tecnology had(has?) a youth hostel
  in one of its dormitory in summers: Stoczek utca(street, straBe)
  The street can be found on the map.
    However if there are some, those are listed in any book
  available in Europe listing youth hostels in Europe !!!

                              Dr.Dr.K.S.

Dear Mr. Kershaw,
I am an American who lived in Hungary for a year, and I plan on returning
to further study the language in 1996.  I don't have much info on American
companies and what they would need; I went to Hungary right after I
graduated from college and was an English teacher there.  Still, there are
a lot of American companies there.  If you are interested, try contacting
the American embassy in Budapest, and they can probably give you a listing
of Americans doing business in Hungary.  If you need the address and
information, I can get it for you.  Another diplomatic branch to try is
the US Information Service, since they have a commercial section and can
probably give you info too.  I probably have that address too.
Another route you could try is going through an organization as a
"volunteer" to help Hungarian businesses improve their productivity, etc.
Organizations such as the Peace Corps are good for that, and I have also
been reading a lot lately about the Soros Foundation, which sponsors many
programs in Hungary.  I have addresses for those places if you want them.
Even though you would be a "volunteer," you would of course be paid,
although not as much as a private firm would pay.  But I think you would
be able to live quite comfortably in Hungary.
Just out of curiousity, why the interest in Hungary?  I would be happy to
tell you anything about my experiences there, and to help you as much as I
can.  I always encourage people to go there, basically, because I had a
very positive experience.
Let me know if you need any more help.
Shannon Morris

I share Joe Pannon's scepticism regarding the attractiveness of Hungary to
Americans.  Dring my stay in Debrecen last spring teaching at the university,
I did not find Hungarians either particularly friendly or particularly wel-
coming.  Their tendency to look on "rich" Americans as sources of material
benefit or "influence" was also distasteful, at least to me.  On the other
hand, a few other English-speaking foreign businessmen whom I met thought
that Hungary had some   real possibilities


despite poor work habits and attitudes onthe part of many.  But I assume that
Americans want to go there to retire because they believe it is cheap.  25%
yearly inflation is not cheap, in my book, but go figure.

Udv.
Be'la

George Antony wrote:

: Given that Andras Kornai can write coherent and grammatically correct
English,
: my strong suspicion is that the alleged quote is, in fact, a fraud.  If
: Mr Kiss is unwilling or unable to prove otherwise, I would suggest that the
: list owner terminate Mr Kiss's subscription to the Hungary list.

Obvious bad parody a capital offense?


--Greg Grose

Some people very rightly say about me that I don't know much about business.
Quite true. But, even *I* know what is the problem with the following:

>Some of the older generating plants are
>inefficient, polluting and expensive to run. Selling the inefficient plants
>to someone who is willing to update or replace them is obviously a good
>idea. The Antall Government in 1992 was actively working on such a plan.

No one wants to buy them by themselves. Just like in the case of HungarHotels
no one is willing to buy a run-down, inefficient, and polluting plant without
some enticement. The enticements in this case are the better plants. In the
case of the hotels out of 14 hotels maybe four were more or less acceptable
in terms of physical plant, the rest wasn't. That's why the government
decided to sell them together. Now, if you consider that that the Hungarian
privatization officials have an exaggerated notion of the worth of their
wares, these inefficient, old plants singly will never be sold. Just as the
HungarHotels still haven't found buyers.

And just for a laugh here is little news item in today's "Hirmondo":

>Paks vesztesege (MH)
>
>Mintegy 5-600 millio forintos kar keletkezett a kettes szamu blokk
>kiesese kovetkezteben  a Paksi Atomeromuben.  Az egyseget november 8-an
>kellett leallitani, s a kiesett mennyiseget importbol volt kenytelen
>potolni a Magyar Villamos Muvek Rt.  Azt maig sem sikerult
>megallapitani, honnan kerult a blokkban talalt, egyforintos meretu
>femdarab az egysegbe.

Briefly in English: "a piece of metal, the size of a one-forint coin, was
found in bloc #2 of the Paks Atomic Energy Plant. As a result, the whole unit
had to be shut down on November 8. The lost energy had to be supplemented
from imports. The loss is between 500 and 600 million forints." So, it wasn't
gold, or even gold-plated!

I couldn't let this pass. In the light of our discussion, I thought that this
was very, very funny.

Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh wrote:"what I didn't understand-and still do not understand.....
because of a modest 6% return on investment,will necessarily have to come
from higher rates."
1.Private ownership would require a much higher level of equity (downpayment
if you like) as opposed to debt.-No problem here Eva-
2.And this equity would have to earn a return of a minimum 6%-pay dividends
to the bond holders or share holders.(Utilitie's share dont pay high retur)
3.Higher cost also would be imposed for the private ownership by somewhat
higher interest(on the borrowed loan)because government dosen't garantee
the loan any more
The Hungarian publicly owned MVM dosen't have this "downpayment" or equity,
for what they have to pay dividends-6% return (over and above the inflation)
Some of this "downpayment" came out from the budget,during the development
of stations etc.For return, MVM has to give a reliable service to the tax-
payers and ratepayers at the lowest possible price.As it stands now MVM has
to pay (only) interest on the money they borrowed from the bank.In addition:
4.Under privat ownership,MVM would be liable for state corporate and capital
taxes,which (I believe) it dosen't pay as a crown corporation.
5.On top of that,there would be massive fees paid for transactions.
Eva,if you add all these up,you can be sure there will be higher rates.

Eva,Barna wrote to you,that "MVM Rt.is not operated as a single entity,it
has 8 generating plants and a number of transmission division.Each division
operates as a separate entity."
Read this carefully,because this is the business of MVM Rt.The generating
plants are the PRODUCERS,the high voltage network are the WHOLESALERS, and
the distribution network are the RETAILERS.Who ever owns the high voltage
network,controls the electricity rate! ( This is no different,than any other
business).This is why Barna said: "What is not obvious to me,why Hungary
needs to sell the trasmission network." I couldn't agree more. I also agree
with Barna "Selling the inefficient plants to someone who is willing to up-
date or replace them is obviously a good idea." Two months ago the Csepel
generating plant was sold to a British Hoding Co.for 21 million dollar,that
was a good sale for MVM Rt.Congratulations!They going to up-grade this plant,
and this is a plus for modernizing MVM Rt.
Laci Toth

On Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:55:00 EST "W. BATKAY" said:

>I share Joe Pannon's scepticism regarding the attractiveness of Hungary to
>Americans.

--I don't post on this list any more, but I'll make an exception in
this case.  I am an American.  I spent only one week in Budapest in
1991.  I fell in love with the place.  Why is it attractive?  The
obvious history of the place.  The wonderful food.  The beauty of
the city itself, astride the Danube.  It is a very romantic (in the
original sense of this word) place.  I found the people I talked to
were very realistic about Hungary's political and economic situation.
I can't speak Hungarian, but I have enough German to get by and many
conversations were sort of mixed German-English.  I thought that the
people whom I met in the inexpensive hotel I stayed in and in the
shops were very sensitive and intelligent.

--Nobody cheated me.  I was surprised at that, since they could have
done so.  I thought that taxi fares were reasonable compared to
London and Chicago.  This may not be "Politically Correct" but
my impression was that the Hungarians I met were not all that
different from Americans.  They were concerned with feeding and
educating their children, making a living, and so on.  The Russians
were still in town, but I didn't see any, since they were keeping
a low profile.  For my money, there isn't any place more pleasant
that Budapest in June.

--I suppose that the most intruiging thing is the sense of history.
One gets the impression that he or she is standing in a place where
momentous thing have happened.  Some of us Americans groove on
that sort of thing.

Charles

Dear Fellow-listmembers:

Contributors like Eva Balogh give the lie to AOL's net-reputation as a
haven for various forms of human idiocy, but the latest arrival from there
provides me with the best argument for changing Hungary over to a fully-
moderated list since the irruption onto our horizons of silicon.com.

I know it's a Hungarian "tradition" that argument is carried on in ways
that are--well, more vigorous--than may be quite comfortable for the
average wishy-washy liberal American like me.  I have always thought
that whatever may be going on in the Hungarian-language lists, however,
our debates--even among adversaries with strongly differing views and
often strong personal antipathies--were carried on with at least a certain
minimum of politeness and decency.

That has seemed to me a very valuable thing, and to make the list fully-
moderated would be to admit a common failure of us all to maintain that
situation.  As Joe Pannon points out, the list is currently structured
so that anyone who cares to can post to it without being a subscriber.
I frankly have no idea what would be the effect on the connections through
HIX or bit.listserv.hungary for me to alter the list parameters so that
one would have to be subscribed in order to post.  But if the kind of
mindless, scurrilous postings as those recently arriving from AOL continue,
I would be moved to make that change, or even go over to full moderation.

I think we should be capable of conducting ourselves in such a way that no
Big Brother--even if it were myself--is necessary.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

>Dear Fellow-listmembers:
>
>Contributors like Eva Balogh give the lie to AOL's net-reputation as a
>haven for various forms of human idiocy, but the latest arrival from there
>provides me with the best argument for changing Hungary over to a fully-
>moderated list since the irruption onto our horizons of silicon.com.
>
>I know it's a Hungarian "tradition" that argument is carried on in ways
>that are--well, more vigorous--than may be quite comfortable for the
>average wishy-washy liberal American like me.  I have always thought
>that whatever may be going on in the Hungarian-language lists, however,
>our debates--even among adversaries with strongly differing views and
>often strong personal antipathies--were carried on with at least a certain
>minimum of politeness and decency.
>
>That has seemed to me a very valuable thing, and to make the list fully-
>moderated would be to admit a common failure of us all to maintain that
>situation.  As Joe Pannon points out, the list is currently structured
>so that anyone who cares to can post to it without being a subscriber.
>I frankly have no idea what would be the effect on the connections through
>HIX or bit.listserv.hungary for me to alter the list parameters so that
>one would have to be subscribed in order to post.  But if the kind of
>mindless, scurrilous postings as those recently arriving from AOL continue,
>I would be moved to make that change, or even go over to full moderation.
>
>I think we should be capable of conducting ourselves in such a way that no
>Big Brother--even if it were myself--is necessary.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Hugh Agnew


Amen.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

As an oft-bewildered reader of this list, I'd like to thank Hugh for his
well-timed interruption. May I also recommend that some of those who
regularly post here use this opportunity to sit back for a while and
contemplate the meaning of publicity and public behavior?

Tibor Szendrei
University of Maryland

On Mon, 20 Nov 1995, Hugh Agnew wrote:

> Dear Fellow-listmembers:
>
> Contributors like Eva Balogh give the lie to AOL's net-reputation as a
> haven for various forms of human idiocy, but the latest arrival from there
> provides me with the best argument for changing Hungary over to a fully-
> moderated list since the irruption onto our horizons of silicon.com.
>
> I know it's a Hungarian "tradition" that argument is carried on in ways
> that are--well, more vigorous--than may be quite comfortable for the
> average wishy-washy liberal American like me.  I have always thought
> that whatever may be going on in the Hungarian-language lists, however,
> our debates--even among adversaries with strongly differing views and
> often strong personal antipathies--were carried on with at least a certain
> minimum of politeness and decency.
>
> That has seemed to me a very valuable thing, and to make the list fully-
> moderated would be to admit a common failure of us all to maintain that
> situation.  As Joe Pannon points out, the list is currently structured
> so that anyone who cares to can post to it without being a subscriber.
> I frankly have no idea what would be the effect on the connections through
> HIX or bit.listserv.hungary for me to alter the list parameters so that
> one would have to be subscribed in order to post.  But if the kind of
> mindless, scurrilous postings as those recently arriving from AOL continue,
> I would be moved to make that change, or even go over to full moderation.
>
> I think we should be capable of conducting ourselves in such a way that no
> Big Brother--even if it were myself--is necessary.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Hugh Agnew
> 
>

International Rescue Corps is helping a British organisation by transporting
aid and an aid worker to a Hungarian Orphanage.

They are leaving the UK next Saturday and expect to be driving their vehicle
and trailer across Europe in around 3 days.

More details will be found on our WWW pages or by emailing this address.

Any assistance which might be available to our drivers during their journey
would be gratefully received.

Please watch our WWW pages for up to date information

Andrew Witham
Manager - Operations Room

International Rescue Corps

For more details go to URL  http://www.demon.co.uk/irc/irc1/html

"United to Save Life"

A Charity registered in England

Patron: HRH The Princess Royal

Charles was obviously enamored of Budapest during a one week stay.  I, too,
have enjoyed Budapest for a couple of days, although I don't find it par-
ticularly beautiful because of all the accumulated dirt on the buildings
and streets.  Momentous things have indeed occurred there, and I, too,
groove on such things, which is what keeps bringing me back.
        The problem is when you stay longer and speak Hungarian, but were
not born in Hungary.  My experience is that Hungrians are simply non-
plussed in dealing with such people.  To say that they are suspicious is
not, I think, going too far.  In particular, a longer stay--say, of 3
months--and in a provincial city--say, Debrecen--brings one smack up
against the closed nature of Hungarian society in general, and provincial
Hungarian society in particular.  This was not only my experience, but
that of other Hungarians not from Debrecen.
        I should add that the situation may be entirely different for
young persons, which I am not.  I don't "do" discos, hate night life, but
am very interested in getting to know people on more than a superficial
level.  I found this almost completely impossible, either with univrsity
colleagues or with my students.  There were exceptions, of course, as
everywhere, and superficial contacts with salespeople, asking directions
on the street, and so on, were generally as pleasant as in the U.S.  But
that is not the same thing as retiring there or otherwise going there to
live.  In those cases, I stand by my judgement of the genrally unfriendly
nature of Hungarians and the closed character of Hungarian society.

Udv.,
Be'la

All I am going to say about this is that everyone may have a different
experience than you.  I have not been to Hungary at all but for example....I
have lived in a major city for almost all my life.  When I transfered to
Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff Arizona,(May I remind you that the
population of that city is 50,000 in comparison to where I lived right now
.Long Beach California which the population is over a million), I lived in
that small town for 2 and 1/2 years and even though it is a beautiful town I
could not stand living there.  So people are going to have different
experiences in different enviroments.

Jeremy

: ...the genrally unfriendly
: nature of Hungarians and the closed character of Hungarian society.

?

   A couple approach old Joe in the hardware store of this little town.
"We've just moved here, what are people like in this town?"
Old Joe replies, "How did you find the people where you come from?"
They say "Oh they were wonderful - friendly, generous, great people!"
Old Joe says "Yup, you'll find them pretty much the same in this town."

A week later another couple ask the same question of old Joe. He asks
*them* what the people were like at their old town.
They say "Sort of cold, unfriendly, a bit selfish - not neighbourly at all."
Joe replies, "Yes, you'll find the people in this town are like that."


--Greg Grose

KADAR FORGIVENESS .....CONT. p2

But life with my orphan dog is not at all smooth.  It is true that
Dani loves him and he
has taken to the baby, lapping him at his face and tummy.  Dani
chortles and coos, pointing
at Kadar as the dog gets near.  Dani cries out, "Wa, wa."  This, in
English, means ....."bow
WOW....."or dOg.  Dani's first language, of all things, was Hungarian.
 To us, his parents,
it was as though our unformed babe had suddenly started prattling in
Chinese.  The only
phrase in English he knows is "go-go," which means shoes.  You can
imagine how Agi and
I pondered this puzzle, since we speak almost entirely in English.
The nursery teachers get
a real kick out of him saying "SZIJA!" instead of the usual..... "pw_
pw_....bye-bye."
But the name of the dog is a real problem.  I had always thought of
him as an orphan.
Not a stray..... Even before I knew that Kadar, the former Premier,
himself, was an
orphan.  The neighbors are totally offended by the unholy
christening..  This must be a
cultural thing, I think....Not just a longing for the old socialist
order of pup tent
vacations.....nor, after a wait in line for eight years.....a longing
for a Trabant in every
garage.  Several people have told me that the name is offensive
because it shows disrespect
for the dead.  Can you imagine, an entire committee formed in my
building and about five
people came to my door pleading that I change the dog's name to "a
real dog's name." "It's
VULGAR," they intoned Over..... and over...... as though forming a
Greek chorus in the
hallway.  I replied that where I came from many dogs were often named
after presidents.
Big Great Danes after Roosevelt.  Remember, Gitta....Little
peanut-sized dogs after Jimmy
Carter.  Take that as an example for a name for a president if you
think Kadar is bad.
Jimmy, the President.  Billy and Ronnie, Presidents.  The closest you
could come to such
down home informality here is with Arpi Bacsi, and he didn't run for
President of Hungary
under that name.

Cont....p3 Kadar the doggie

--- MOMS 3.0

Here is a humorous clip from Hungarian Radio
that addresses views on "Kadar Forgiveness."

FOR LOVE OF MY HUNGARIAN DOG, KADAR

Dearest Gitta,
I just adopted an orphan dog.  I named it K_d_rka.... little
K_d_r.....after the man
whose name was always associated with  those good ol'e days
of......Gulyas communism.
He took to me at once at Lehel Market.  Just followed me
about.....PAST the poultry
section.....PAST the flower stands..... PAST the butcher with the
rump.....(hurumf) of
horse, that is.  That was when I took to HIM.  I bought a nice piece
of horse meat.  He
gobbled it down without a chew, and gained my admiration at once.  I
must chew at least a
dozen times......even after its boiled.  It's true, Gitta, they sell
horse meat at the
markets....(shush)as though we were at war.  But Agi disagrees ...as
usual.  Horse meat
may simply be in fashion, she claims.  She claims when she was with
the Opera in Vienna,
during breaks the orchestra gathered around a stand outside devouring
"l_berkase,"......
that's horse patties with garlic...in Vienna, no less.
After a bath that muddied the water darK blaCK, KadarKa slept for a
full thirty siX
hours.  Agi was PRETTY FREAKED OUT by the dirty bathtub.   She
threatened not to
bathe until I had cleansed it with Clorox.  I think Kadarka must have
had a fever since he
slept so long.  When I had him vaccinated, the vet told me he was just
two years old, part
husky, German shepherd, collie, and....dOg.  He certainly has the
strength of a husky --he
pulls me about as though I were a sleigh.....whenever we go for a
walk.  As for the breed
of dog....can you imagine..... there is actually a pure breed of dog
in Hungary called....
dOg.  I enjoy seeing him eat .  I buy him frozen chicken backs.  I
must say I feel a little
guilty about this, Gitta,  because chicken backs are the staple
protein for many pensioners -
-but then again I recall reading in the papers in the States that old
people there sometimes
ate Alpo or Kennel Ration because of its high vitamin content.  As
usual, Agi disagrees
with me.  She recalls the elderly eating petite cans of Gourmet cat
food because they
were....of all things.....more appetizing.  You know what her
reasoning is?  Alpo comes in
large, bulky cans --unappetizing.  The little cans look more like tuna
fish, or better yet,
minced crabs.  Imagine that....Is that a woman's logic for you, or
what?.....And my best
friend, Alberto, keeps telling me, "Just listen to her, Laci.  Just
keep listening to her.  Just
listen to Agi."

CONTINUED NEXT POST....KADARKA p.2





--- MOMS 3.0