Roman Kanala > wrote:
>
>However, what I wanted to point out was that you brought here a
>confused contribution of a little Polish girl that you passed for
>gazdik-caliber fascist crap (since you named the obnoxious fascist
>specimen;-)

Just after I sent off my previous reply to this article, I noticed a
follow-up article by the same "Pilish girl" that I include here as well.
Do you, Roman, still maintain that she is not Slovak?

Regards,
Joe
-------------
Article 20554 of bit.listserv.slovak-l:
From:  (Kristina Szurek)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: More paranoia from Bratislava
Date: 2 Aug 1996 18:38:42 GMT
Organization: York University
Lines: 43
Message-ID: >
Reply-To: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: sunlight.ccs.yorku.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

As much as I hate dividing land and countries, and drawing borderlines,
in today's day and age, one must establish ownership.  So just as much as
I am responsible for the content of this message, because I am its owner,
the Slovak Government is responsible for the running of their country.

As I said before, I have nothing against the Hungarian minority
living mostly in the southern part of Western Slovakia Region (na juhu
Zapadoslovenskeho Kraja), I do object to this minority, or any minority
in general in breaking laws, or attempting to take advantage of the
system.  I fully support the Slovakian Government in their ways to
pretoct themselves.

Someone here asked, how did those Hungarians get there?  Well I am aware
that they settled there before Slovakia was formed, but it is common fact
that Hungarians are a nation of travellers (koc~ovne' kmene) of the
Ugro-Finn Tribe.  The issue of the borderlines of Slovakia and Hungary
should have been dealt with at the beginning, when it was formed.  Now it
is layed down, and those Hungarians "stuck" in Slovakia will have to
adapt, and those Slovaks "stuck" in Hungary will have to adapt as well.
You cannot please everyone all the time.

I also want to thank the person replying with the statistics of Hungarian
cities having only at-most 99% non-Slovak population.  First hand
information is valuable, as I haven't visited Slovakia for quite some
time, and I am drawing some references to the sitation as I saw it 3 years
ago.

In any case, how do you explain that Ukrainian minority living on Slovak
land is not screaming for the same issues as Hungarians are?  How about
Polish? or even the Czech minority?  It would seem that either Slovaks are
extremly cruel to Hungarians than to any other minority living in
Slovakia, or the other option is that Slovak-Hungarians are just
loud-mouthed, give-them-a-helping-hand-and-they-grab-the-whole-arm, 
always-wanting-more type of people.  

I do not know what the Slovak government has up their sleves (I do not
follow overseas politics too closely), but they should introduce more of
those laws that strengthen and support Slovak nationalism and unity.
And here, I am NOT talking about national cleansing or anything sick
like that, I am simply talking about unity.  We have been stepped on by
Germans, Russians, Hungarians, and Czechs, now it's about time we 
step on ourselves. :-)  I mean step up ourselves.

In article >,
Hermes1  > wrote:
<hatemongering deleted>

I think we have found Albert Egorov.

Maria and Hermes sitting in a tree, 
K-I-S-S-I-N-G (each others' ass)

What a bunch o' pills.

Gabor

Write a book or an article about your theory and then we tolk. As far as 
I know you MUST back up your theory with SOLID ARGUMENTS in order to 
convince the scientific community(NOT THE PEOPLE ON THE STREET) about its 
validity. Where are the SOLID ARGUMENTS?.

In article >,
Pastor > wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_01BB80DA.F6B4F1E0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Here can you see, what makes in Hungary the Human Right.
>Court work??
>Between two court-time is one year.
Dear Zolta1n,

Today's (Saturday August 3) New York Times has an Op-Ed article on how
somebody could not obtain a divorce in 34 months, in what appears to be a
totally routine case (no kids, simple division of property). I'm afraid the
courts are slow, incredibly slow, even in the US. 

Andra1s Kornai

Peter Hakel wrote:
 
> On 2 Aug 1996, Roman Kanala wrote:
>
>> Let's define the term "intruders" as people who came without invitation
>> and unwanted. Then settled down and over years, they gained less or more
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> legitimity to stay and to feel home. So let's consider a transformed
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  This is rather vague; I assume that it's the purpose of your
> following lines to clarify this.

Sorry if it looks unclear - it's here that I hoped to answer your 
question "when the Spanish, English and French intruders became legitimate 
inhabitants in the Americas". At the beginning, they were intruders, noone 
puts in doubt the legitimity of their descendants TODAY'S presence out there.

Even in what later became the territory of the USA the original inhabitants
were treated in a not very nice way. Measured by today's standards, one has
unambiguously call it genocide and atrocities. However, they will not claim
their lands back and request the white men to leave. 

Why - this is the reason I introduced the term "expiration of legitimate
interest". Please read below and TRY TO THINK about before you try to reply.



>> problem: how long the time parameter has to be set ?
>>
>> To answer this question, one cannot give an answer by putting forward
>> a constant like 200, 500 or 1100 years. I think that we need a new
>> term, that I will call "decay of the legitimate interest".
>>
>> Indeed, a legitimate interest may become meaningless in various ways,
>> like when the object of the interest disappears or is altered in a way
>> it's no more interesting. An example from the history: disappearing of
>> the Babylon empire after the badly done irrigation increased the soil
>> salinity and the lands became irreversibly arid. Later, when men learned
>> how to take profit of the petrol, these lands became interesting again.
> 
>  I don't quite understand what you mean by "legitimate interest." Would it
> justify forcing native Indian tribes out from the prairee because they did
> not use it for the "right" purpose (i.e. extensive agriculture) but were
> hunters instead? Well, with all the buffalo gone the land was indeed
> "arid." Only new settlers could take advantage of the land by planting
> corn (...oil...), hence they can legitimately claim this land...

MR. HAKEL: STOP ! 

I have intentionally left my original lines in this followup. Please make
the effort to reread them and to try thinking about. 

In no way I meant it as justification of wiping out the Indians. What I 
meant by the Babylon example is that today's Saddams cannot claim
legitimity by referring to the glorious Babylon empire. What I also meant
is that in a similar way, there is no reference possible to the events 
1100 years ago to justify the TODAY'S oppression of Slovakian Magyars.

By the way, comparing the treatment of Indians by the white men centuries
ago in the Americas and the treatment of the today's Magyar minority in
Slovakia is not good for one supplementary reason: the civilisation
parameters difference you mentioned does not exist between Slovaks and
Magyars in Slovakia.


>   I just feel that this approach could be abused to "explain" the
> "necessity" of things like ethnic cleansing. "Let's do the dirty work now;
> we'll achieve our holy goals and 50-100 years it won't make much sense to
> undo our actions." In fact, return to the original state may require new
> injustice and that won't be acceptable in then more civilized society.
> Let's go for it, then...

Mr. Hakel:   This is lame and thouroughly rotten and I had to look at the
headers of the message just to be sure it's not a falsificate from some
motor making company in order to discredit you.

Never, never would I subscribe to such things like "ethnic cleansing" and 
never will allow my words to be misused and deformed to something such ! 
This are your words, your conclusions, not mine.

By the way, this is the reasoning of the pilferers in TODAY'S Slovakia in 
regard to the "privatisation". And this is why the national issue is being
regularly heated up by fascists in order to make naive people to forget
the ACTUAL ISSUES.


>> Yes the tribes that later formed the Magyar nation came to the
>> Carpathian bassin after the Slav tribes, but when these have settled
>> down they have also put under pressure the  Celts, who themselfs were
>> audacious conquerors as they showed it to Etrusques in the Po valley.
>> So what? What's the connection to the these day's injustices in Slovakia?
>>
>> Mr. Frajkor's amalgame between the events 1100 years ago, when Magyars
>> actually were intruders, 1000 years ago, when they definitely established
>> their kingdom, and the events at the end of the 20th century are a non-
>> sense, legitimacy of just anything from pre-1918 being definitely expired.
> 
>   So, in the case of southern Slovakia, who is home and who is the
> intruder? That depends on how one chooses the reference point in history.
> As we have seen on this list people make this choice as is "convenient."
> And it's not just some people but so do both Slovak and Hungarian
> governments and other politicians. That's worrying because these people
> have the power to mess up things really bad.

In regards to the above, the first thing I would suggest is that the issue
is not "who is the intruder". Please remark that it was the Slovaks who
came there 10-20-40-70 years ago and thus it's in their interest not to 
start breeding the issue. Saying they already were there 1100 years ago, 
so they are only repairing a thousand  year injustice, as the Slovak 
fascists often justify it, is exactly the first step toward Yougoslavia. 


>   Injustice breeds injustice and this easily creates a deadlocked circle.
> The legacy of lost wars has a dangerous potential (Germany 1933). IMHO the
> solution of this Slovak-Hungarian issue is for both sides basically stop
> whining. We Slovaks should say loud that the existence of the
> Hungarian minority on our territory is a consequence of the war we lost
> 1100 years ago. That was a long time ago and they are citizens of this
> country with the same rights. Our government should honor our own
> Constitution and stop attacking their rights. Hungarians (on both banks of
> the Danube) should acknowledge that the small territorial extent of
> present Hungary (as compared to that of the Kingdom) is a result of two
> wars lost in 1918 and 1945. That was a long time ago and now many ethnic
> Hungarians are citizens of other countries. Hence the Hungarian government
> should stop act as a protector of these people and focus on domestic
> problems (such as economy, minority rights etc); Hungarians in Slovakia
> have a sizable (and certainly loud) political representation of their own.
> These political representatives are sworn to work for the benefit of the
> Slovak Republic and her citizens. They should realize that going beyond
> existing minority rights would worsen the condition of the citizenry.
> 
>  And both countries lived happily ever after...

And finally a voice of reason. Very good. There is not too much to add, 
perhaps that the one who starts with conciliatory moves will be the one
whom the history will remember as the peacemaker who ended a two centuries
of disputes.

Roman Kanala

On 2 Aug 1996, Roman Kanala wrote:

> On 31 Jul 96 23:10:16 +0200, Peter Hakel > asks:
> 
> >On 31 Jul 1996, Roman Kanala wrote:
> >
> >> In fact, the issue in Slovakia is that the fascists are about to suppress
> >> the natural right of Magyars, who unlike the Quebec francophones are not
> >> intruders settled there some two centuries ago but original inhabitants of
> >> their lands, to use their language on the territory that over centuries
> >> was the land of their ancestors.
> >
> >  How long does it take for new settlers to be promoted from "intruders"
> >to "original inhabitants?" I assume it's something between 200 and 1100
> >years. What category do the Hispanics in America belong to? Their
> >ancestors began arriving about 500 years ago.
> 
> 
> Good question. If you take it this way, to the question which category
> the Hispanics belong, I answer YES. Here is the explanation.
> 
> Let's define the term "intruders" as people who came without invitation
> and unwanted. Then settled down and over years, they gained less or more 
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> legitimity to stay and to feel home. So let's consider a transformed 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 This is rather vague; I assume that it's the purpose of your
following lines to clarify this.

> problem: how long the time parameter has to be set ? 
> 
> To answer this question, one cannot give an answer by putting forward
> a constant like 200, 500 or 1100 years. I think that we need a new
> term, that I will call "decay of the legitimate interest". 
> 
> Indeed, a legitimate interest may become meaningless in various ways,
> like when the object of the interest disappears or is altered in a way 
> it's no more interesting. An example from the history: disappearing of 
> the Babylon empire after the badly done irrigation increased the soil
> salinity and the lands became irreversibly arid. Later, when men learned
> how to take profit of the petrol, these lands became interesting again.

 I don't quite understand what you mean by "legitimate interest." Would it
justify forcing native Indian tribes out from the prairee because they did
not use it for the "right" purpose (i.e. extensive agriculture) but were
hunters instead? Well, with all the buffalo gone the land was indeed
"arid." Only new settlers could take advantage of the land by planting
corn (...oil...), hence they can legitimately claim this land...

  I just feel that this approach could be abused to "explain" the
"necessity" of things like ethnic cleansing. "Let's do the dirty work now;
we'll achieve our holy goals and 50-100 years it won't make much sense to
undo our actions." In fact, return to the original state may require new
injustice and that won't be acceptable in then more civilized society.
Let's go for it, then...

> An another way the legitimate interest to decay is simply "expiration".
> For example, if the owner of a building lets his good in hands of renting
> people for too long, in some juridical systems these people may raise
> claims concerning the right to use the building forever. It actually
> happened in Czechoslovakia and to many people, it was one of the obstacles
> to restitution of their confiscated property. In this case, the time
> parameter was as little as fifty, fourty or even less years.

 Exactly my point, see above.

> An another (yet not a different) issue are the compensations paid to 
> the survivors among the deported Jews by today's Germany. In this case,
> the time parameter has to be set to the lifetime of the victims.

  I guess that the choice of the "just" time parameter is the biggest
problem. What about the children of those who died in the Holocaust? 
Have they been paid anything? If not, should they be paid?

> How about the issue that brought me to develop this reflexion, the 
> fascist Slovak State 1939-45, and the creation of Czechoslovakia 1918 ?
> The 1918 events are so distant that there hardly are any survivors, but
> the consequences of the inclusion of extensive Magyar-inhabited 
> territories to what became Czechoslovakia are still present, courtesy
> of Meciar and the Slovak National Party who broke the Republics and
> now they do the same they disliked from Czechs to... Slovakian Magyars.
> 
> As a popular Slovak proverb says, the time will show. An another says, 
> the time will heal everything. At the condition not to scrape scabs.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 Again the same thing. It seems like the presence of Slovak minority in
Hungary has already been "healed" to a large extent.

> Yes the tribes that later formed the Magyar nation came to the 
> Carpathian bassin after the Slav tribes, but when these have settled 
> down they have also put under pressure the  Celts, who themselfs were 
> audacious conquerors as they showed it to Etrusques in the Po valley.
> So what? What's the connection to the these day's injustices in Slovakia?
> 
> Mr. Frajkor's amalgame between the events 1100 years ago, when Magyars
> actually were intruders, 1000 years ago, when they definitely established
> their kingdom, and the events at the end of the 20th century are a non-
> sense, legitimacy of just anything from pre-1918 being definitely expired.

  So, in the case of southern Slovakia, who is home and who is the
intruder? That depends on how one chooses the reference point in history.
As we have seen on this list people make this choice as is "convenient."
And it's not just some people but so do both Slovak and Hungarian
governments and other politicians. That's worrying because these people
have the power to mess up things really bad.

  Injustice breeds injustice and this easily creates a deadlocked circle.
The legacy of lost wars has a dangerous potential (Germany 1933). IMHO the
solution of this Slovak-Hungarian issue is for both sides basically stop
whining. We Slovaks should say loud that the existence of the
Hungarian minority on our territory is a consequence of the war we lost
1100 years ago. That was a long time ago and they are citizens of this
country with the same rights. Our government should honor our own
Constitution and stop attacking their rights. Hungarians (on both banks of
the Danube) should acknowledge that the small territorial extent of
present Hungary (as compared to that of the Kingdom) is a result of two
wars lost in 1918 and 1945. That was a long time ago and now many ethnic
Hungarians are citizens of other countries. Hence the Hungarian government
should stop act as a protector of these people and focus on domestic
problems (such as economy, minority rights etc); Hungarians in Slovakia
have a sizable (and certainly loud) political representation of their own.
These political representatives are sworn to work for the benefit of the
Slovak Republic and her citizens. They should realize that going beyond
existing minority rights would worsen the condition of the citizenry.

 And both countries lived happily ever after...

> Roman Kanala


Peter Hakel

Bemutatokent ezentul rovid szemelvenyekkel ismertetjuk a Nemzet c. naponta
megjeleno Magyar Internet Vilaglap VASARNAPI szama(i)t.

A Nemzet www cime, ahol a szamok (a vasarnapi szam ekezetekkel)
teljes egeszeben (archivalva is) lathatok, a kovetkezo:

http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

A naponta megjeleno (ekezet nelkuli) e-mail valtozat ingyenesen
"megrendelheto" az alabbi cimre (barmit) irva:



==

From: 
Date: Sun, 04 Aug. 1996
To: 
Subject: Nemzet 1996.08.04

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Level, vita:
Submissions: >
Anonymous:   >

=

Benedek Istvan Professzor vegrendelete

Magyar Rezervatum - szellemi vegvar
[megjelent napokkal Benedek Istvan halala elott;
1. evf. 2. szam]

Egy nep nem el meg abbol, hogy sirankozik, vadaskodik es dicso
multjan mereng.

Szep dolog az emlekezes a honfoglalasra.  Rossz neven is vennem
nemzetemtol, ha megfeledkeznek Arpad apankrol.  Nem feledkezik
meg.  Hallunk nagy szavakat, melyeknek fele iga, masik fele amitas
vagy toditas.  Ez is rendjen van, de a szavak mellett tettek is
kellenek, a mult dicserete nem fodheti el a jelen keserveit es a jovo
baljos jeleit.

Mikozben unnepeljuk a honfoglalast, nem hunyhatunk szemet afolott,
hogy csondben - nem is olyan csondben - uj honfoglalas zajlik.  A
magyarsag elszegenyitese nem szimpla kizsakmanyolassal tortenik,
amit a kapitalizmus farkastorvenye magyarazna, hanem ravasz
nepellenes torvenyekkel, amelyek lehetove teszik az orszag
foldjenek, energiainak, anyagi bazisanak kiarusitasat, a
munkalehetosegek megszunteteset, az egeszsegugy es kultura
elsorvasztasat.

Mit lehet ez ellen tenni?

A termeszetes valasz az osszefogas, osszehangolt cselekves volna,
ettol azonban el kell tekinteni, mert a magyar nep osszefogasra
alkalmatlan, nem kepes.

Mas megoldast kell keresni.  Sopankodas helyett dolgozni kell,
tiltakozas helyett pedig ellenallni.  Egyetemes osszefogasra nem
vagyunk alkalmasak, de csoportos szervezkedesre igen.

 Vissza kell foglalni a haza't.

Ha okos szoval nem megy, erovel.

[stb]

==

Elment a Professzor ur.
Bucsuzunk Benedek Istvantol

Vodros Attila

Uj Idok 1(4)

Ugy tunt: fizikailag jo eroben van...

Szellemileg fiatalokat megszegyenitoen friss volt, de lelkileg sajnos
kisse megtort.  Gondoskodtak rola, hogy ez igy legyen.  Magyarorszag
1990-ben megvalasztott miniszterelenoke hosszu eveken at gyakorta
vendegeskedett Benedek Istvan hazaban.  Feltetelezhetjuk, hogy a
ket szemelyiseg kozott olyan beszelgetesek folytak, amelyeket
szivesen olvasnank, ha azoknak nyomuk maradt volna.  Sajnos nem
maradt.  1990 utan pedig ilyen beszelgetesre mar nem kerulhetett
sor, mert valami jolszervezett foldi erok mindig gondoskodtak arrol,
hogy Benedek Istvan es Antall Jozsef kozott velemenycserere ne
kerulhessen sor. Kulonos es megdobbento volt ennek tudata,
nemcsak Benedek Istvan szamara, hanem mindenkiere, aki hozza
kozel allt, akit beavatott ezzel kapcsolatos erzeseibe.

[stb]

==

[A "Hit Gyulekezet" c. szektarol ujabban sokat hallani, meg az
Internet "Soc.culture.magyar" c. "newsgroup-ja" is alaposan
foglalkozott vele. "Zsidoberencek szektaja", "Az SZDSZ
(al)keresztenyborbe bujt metelye, amely a hitre vagyo tomegeket
szediti a liberalizmus Uj Vilagrendjebe", "A tortenelmi egyhazak,
fokent a Katolikus Egyhaz elleni (regen kommunista-materialista
alapon muvelt) tamadas sokkal raffinaltabb uj eszkoze" - ezek a Hit
Gyulekezete elleni fobb kritikak. Olvasoink alabb a Gyulekezet "Hit
Info" c. ujsagjaban megjelent sajat cikkeik alapan donthetnek, van-e
valami mindebben. A Nemzet aprilis 9-en "Toredezo Husvet" cimmel
mar foglalkozott a "Hit Gyulekezettel]

Zarandoklat a jelenbe

[Jerusalem Post, 1996. januar 20. ]

Interju Nemeth Sandorral,
a Hit Gyulekezete vezeto lelkeszevel

- Miben all az 1996-os jeruzsalemi konferencia jelentosege?

- Iden januarban 2500 hivo utazik konferenciankra Magyarorszagrol
Jeruzsalembe, a kereszteshadjaratok ota a legnagyobb szamu magyar
csoport, amely egy idoben a varosba erkezik. Szandekaink azonban
egeszen elteroek: mi nem megszallokent jovunk!

A konferenciat nem tekintjuk szigoruan felekezeti jellegunek: az
izraeli-magyar kapcsolatok teren ennel sokkal nagyobb tavlatokat
nyithat. Az elmult negyven ev soran a magyar tarsadalom nem a
legrealisabb kepet kapta Izraelrol es a zsido neprol. Fontos, hogy a
sajat szemunkkel lassuk Izraelt, hogy meltanyolni tudjak vivmanyait.
A konferencia segithet az Izrael iranti erdeklodes felebreszteseben. A
latogatok vegre nem az elmult negy evtized politikai propagandaja
alapjan, hanem a maga valosagaban lathatjak az orszagot. Masreszrol
a Hit Gyulekezete hisz abban, hogy a mult tragikus tortenelmenek
semmifelekeppen nem szabad megismetlodnie. Magyarorszagnak el
kell szakadnia az etnikai csoportok es kulonosen a zsidosag elleni
diszkriminacio legaprobb nyomaitol is.

[stb]

Kepesitesem katolikus teologus. Harom ev szeminariumot fejeztem
be, majd a budapesti Rabbikepzo Intezet vendegdiakjakent
tanulmanyoztam a Torat.

[stb]

==

Hecckampany

Hit Info

A Hit Gyulekezete hiteleti es informacios lap
szerkesztosegi cikke

A jobboldali sajto - a tortenelmi egyhazak "erdekvedelmenek"
urugyen - mar huzamosabb ideje hecckampanyt folytat a Hit
Gyulekezete ellen. Az egymast gerjeszto es egymasra epulo cikkek a
tortenelmi felekezeteket - s mindenekelott a magyar romai
katolicizmust - mint szenvedo, kifosztott es a kommunistak altal
napjainkban is "ellehetetlenitett" egyhazat mutatjak be olvasoiknak.
Mondvan, hogy az "atkos" szocialliberalis koalicio titkos es sotet
uzelmeinek, praktikainak tovabbra is az egyedul udvozito es
ugymond a "legnagyobb nemzeti, tortenelmi ertekekkel buszkelkedo"
felekezet "igaz hitu" tagjai a szenvedo alanyai. E melyen szanto
elemzesekben a pellengerre allitott Hit Gyulekezete pedig mint a
"legkartekonyabb" kozosseg jelenik meg, melyet bizonyos
csatornakon keresztul "a kormany penzel". Mindennek a penzelesnek
az volna a celja, hogy a "mestersegesen letrehozott" Hit Gyulekezete
betoltse allitolagos kuldeteset: "vakmero es arcatlan akciozasaival" -
ertsd: a teljes evangelium hirdetese - "szejjelzilalja es rombolja" a
tortenelmi felekezeteket, s ezzel alaassa a magyarsag nemzetallamat,
es elokeszitse a nemzetkozi zsidosag "bazarallamat". Ebbol is latszik,
hogy a mostani ragalmazasi hullamot mindenekelott jeruzsalemi
konferenciank valtotta ki. Vegyuk sorra azokat a "fobenjaro"
bunoket, melyek - egyebek mellett - egyhazunk szamlajan
szerepelnek.

A Parizs-New York-Tel-Aviv-Folyondar utca tengely

Nemelyek nehezen emesztik meg, hogy a Hit Gyulekezete - minden
igyekezetuk ellenere - toretlenul fejlodik, es jo ideje mar nemzetkozi
mercevel merve is jelentos teljesitmenyekre kepes. Fuggetlensege es
"megmagyarazhatalan" belso ereje egyeseket irrital: anelkul, hogy a
tortenelmi egyhazak es az antiszemitak kulon engedelyet kertek
volna, ketezerotszazan elzarandokoltak - sajat penzukon - a
Szentfoldre, es kifejeztek tiszteletuket David kiraly 3000 eves varosa
elott. Ezzel megsertettuk a "kereszteny" es a "nemzeti" tradiciot:
korabban ugyanis ekkora letszamban Magyarorszagrol csak keresztes
lovagok jartak - meghozza oldokolni - a bibliai tajakra. Mivel pedig
egyesek fel sem tetelezik, hogy kereszteny hivok kizarolag a
Szentfold es a zsidosag iranti halabol es szeretetbol a sajat penzukon
repuljenek Izraelbe, ugy gondoljak: a Hit Gyulekezete
kormanypenzen berelt izraeli kulongepeken utazott.

[stb]

A Hit Gyulekezete sulyos, mondhatni megbocsathatatlan vetkenek
szamit e korokben a keresztenyseg tortenelmi buneinek boncolgatasa
is.

[stb]

II. Janos Pal papa az
egykori gyilkosok szentteavatasaval lepi meg a vilagot. Miert kellene
mindezekrol szemermesen hallgatni akkor, amikor a nemzet ertekeit
es erdekeit a katolicizmus ertekeivel, erdekeivel szeretnek
azonositani? A katolicizmus ujdonsult vedelmezoi buszken
hivatkoznak arra, hogy Magyarorszag mindig katolikus orszag volt.
Azon tul, hogy ez tortenelmileg sem igaz: vajon mikor harcolt a
hivatalos katolikus klerus egesze a magyarsag jogaiert, nemzeti
fuggetlensegeert es szabadsagaert? Emlekeztetnunk kell a szaraz
tenyekre: a nemzeti sorsfordulok alkalmaval a katolikus egyhaz
vezetese szinte minden esetben a szemkozti oldalon allt.

[stb]

A rendszervaltaskor a politikai keresztenyseg (katolicizmus) negy
evet kapott a a magyar nep jovoltabol a hatalom gyakorlasahoz. Mit
tett ezzel a hatalomba visszakerult politikai keresztenyseg? Ahelyett,
hogy tisztulasi folyamatot inditott volna el, tovabb szaporitotta
buneit. Idejet, es energiaja nagy reszet arra hasznalta, hogy az altala
krealt bunbakokra haritsa azt a felelosseget, ami tulajdonkeppen
sajat lelket is beszennyezi es terheli. Uralma legkiabranditobb
tanulsaga az, hogy a magat keresztenynek nevezo klerus bizonyos
resze, a politikai keresztenyseg, a legkevesbe sem kepes multjat az
evangeliumi, vagy akar csak a klasszikus emberi normak alapjan is
ertekelni, felulvizsgalni. Ez a belso magatartasa bomlasztja ma
igazabol a tortenelmi egyhazakat, es sodorja egyre tavolabb toluk a
felekezetekbol kiabrandultakat. Elottunk is erthetetlen, hogy a
temerdek hazugsag es bun utan, miert keptelen a politikai
keresztenyseg a sajat hazatajat rendbehozni Kelet-Europaban.

A miniszterelnok annak ellenere, hogy
nem gyakorlo katolikus (vagy talan nem is katolikus) [Horn Gyula
anyakoveben "anyja evangelikus, apja izraelita" bejegyzes lathato -
Nemzet szerk.], feudalis elodeit megszegyenitoen nagyvonalu
tamogatasban reszesiti a tortenelmi egyhazakat, amelyet az antalli
politika folytatasanak lehet csak minositeni. Kornyezeteben
meghatarozo befolyassal birnak a katolikus iranyban elkotelezett
vallasi tanacsadoi. Az ellenunk folyo jobboldali sajtokampany a Hit
Gyulekezetet ugy probalja feltuntetni, mint a szocialliberalis hatalom
kedvezmenyezettjet. Az egyik ketes hiru organum peldaul mint "az
SZDSZ egyhazat" aposztrofal bennunket. Ezzel szemben az igazsag az,
hogy a Hit Gyulekezetenek az SZDSZ-re gyakorolt befolyasa evek ota
folyamatosan zsugorodik, szinte jelentektelennek mondhato. Sem
Hack Peter, sem masok politikai szerepvallalasa nem vallasi alapokra
epul. Ha ezt kulso megfigyelo nem is fogadja el, legalabb azt
sziveskedjenek figyelembe venni, hogy az SZDSZ vezeteseben
jelenlevo "katolikus blokk" bosegesen rendelkezik akkora
hatalommal, hogy a "hites politikai elorenyomulast" mar csirajaban
kepes legyen semlegesiteni, illetve fekentartani. Csak nehany pelda:
Kuncze Gabor, a jelenlegi kormany miniszterelnok-helyettese,
elkotelezett katolikus ember. Piarista diak volt ugyanugy, mint nehai
Antall Jozsef, vagy annak igazsagugyminisztere, Balsai Istvan. Az
SZDSZ-es Kuncze erkolcsi es szellemi tamogatasat a katolikus klerus
ugyanugy elvezi, mint egykor Antall Jozsef barmelyik miniszterenek
segitseget. Lotz Karoly, szinten SZDSZ-es miniszter a koalicios
kormanyban, vallasi szempontbol kemenyvonalas katolikusnak
szamit, aki teljes mertekben lojalis a klerushoz is. Tovabba olyan
SZDSZ-es vezeto politikusok, mint peldaul Mecs, Dornbach, sot, nem
utolsosorban (maga) Goncz Arpad koztarsasagi elnok, valamennyien
anyaszentegyhazuk hu fiai, akik gyakorlo katolikusok, es
messzemenokig figyelembe veszik felekezetuk erdekeit a
munkajukban is. Nemregiben kozos ceremonian vagtak fel az orszag
kenyeret Pasztor Gyozo, dabas-sari plebanossal.

[stb]

.. Az alabbiakban szamba vesszuk a politikai
hatalom katolikus egyhaznak juttatott tamogatasait, es ezeket
osszevetjuk a Hit Gyulekezetenek adott juttatasokkal.

[A hosszadalmas osszevetes azonban igenyes lapokban valo kozlesre
nem alkalmas, mert egy ordito HATVANSZOROS CSALAS van
"szamitasuk" legelejen (mar annak cimeben is: "Milliardok eacutes
egy gomboc fagylalt"), ami a kozolt "adataik" hitelet csakis hiszekeny
emberek orruknal fogva valo vezetesere teszi alkalmassa. Ezt irjak
ugyanis:

"Ezzel szemben a Hit Gyulekezete - mindent figyelembe veve - 70,6
millio forint tamogatast kap (azaz adofizetonkent evente 35 Ft-ot, kb.
egy gomboc fagylalt arat)."

Az osszevetesbol kiderul tehat, hogy sajat bevallasuk szerint is 70,6
millio Ft-os ALLAMI tamogatast kap a Hit Gyulekezet. Elkovetik
azonban azt az otromba matematikai hibat, hogy mind a katolikusok
allami tamogatasat, mind az oveket TIZMILLIO lakos osszes
adofizetoire vetitik! - Igy a hangzatos, "csupan egy gomboc fagylalt"
osszegevel (evi 35 Ft) hitegetik a hiszekeny olvasokat.  A maximum
35 ezerre teheto osszletszamuk alapjan nyilvanvalo, hogy az egy Hit
Gyulekezeti tagra juto allami tamogatas a valosagban evi 2000 Ft,
vagyis kb. hatvanszorosa annak, mint hangzatos hitegetesuk!
Mindezen tul, a Hit Gyulekezet tagjai minden jovedelmuk 10%-at
"adjak be"! - vagyis a Hit Gyulekezet -meg ha csak a minimalis havi
45,000 Ft-os fizetesekkel is szamolunk!- evente es TAGONKENT
legalabb otvenhatezer Ft-os (adomentes) jovedelemmel (valosagban
joval tobbel) gazdalkodik!

Minden politikai megfontolastol mentesen is lathato tehat, hogy a Hit
Gyulekezet olyan tagokbol tevodik oszze, akik vagy olyan
hiszekenyek, hogy benyalnak minden meset mint "egy gomboc
fagylaltot", vagy pedig olyan dorzsoltek, hogy ilyen atlatszo
hatvanszoros csalasokkal is meg tudjak etetni leprecsalt "hiveiket". -
Ugyes!]

==

How sweet it is. 
Poetic Justice!
Canada wins the gold in the men's 4-100 meter race at the Olympics.
How the Americans via NBC were boasting.
How the Americans boasted that they had never lost the 4-100 for decades.
How wonderful that CANADA beat their ass off.
How wonderful to watch both CBC and NBC, and see what unadulterated sore 
losers the Yankees are -- what a self-centred lot they are -- not a single 
shot in American tv of the gold winners doing their victory lap waving the 
Canadian flag.
What an ungracious lot of silver-losers that they spent their post-race 
commentary analyzing the US teams short-comings, and not one minute spent on 
the winners.
Typical of the US assholes, whose Marines two years ago marched into the 
stadium with the Canadian flag upsidedown, while Toronto's Blue Jays 
baseball team won the World's Series, that penultimate American game.

I love it when Canada kicks American self-centred ass!

I cannot wait to see HOW this STRANGE THEORY is going to be proven.

 wrote:
 
> Roman Kanala > wrote:
> >
> >However, what I wanted to point out was that you brought here a
> >confused contribution of a little Polish girl that you passed for
> >gazdik-caliber fascist crap (since you named the obnoxious fascist
> >specimen;-)
> 
> Just after I sent off my previous reply to this article, I noticed a
> follow-up article by the same "Pilish girl" that I include here as well.
> Do you, Roman, still maintain that she is not Slovak?
> 
> Regards,
> Joe
> -------------
> From:  (Kristina Szurek)
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
> Subject: Re: More paranoia from Bratislava
> Date: 2 Aug 1996 18:38:42 GMT
> 
> As much as I hate dividing land and countries, and drawing borderlines,
> in today's day and age, one must establish ownership.  So just as much as
> I am responsible for the content of this message, because I am its owner,
> the Slovak Government is responsible for the running of their country.

( ... rest of Kristina Szurek's lines deleted ...)

Joe,

I am redirecting the follwups to soc.culture.magyar and also to Slovak-L 
where the original thread is going.

Yes I still think the little Polish girl is not Slovak because of the 
ignorance of basic Slovakia realities she continues to display. 

Although I did not want to get busy with a contribution at such a neglectable
level of reasoning, I will write a followup in a separate article. 

Roman Kanala

T.M.Lutas wrote:

> >  Therefore United States taxpayers are paying enormous amount of
> > dollars for services granted to these immigrants.
> 
> Actually not true in the two cases above. Both of them worked almost
> immediately and have not taken government services other than INS ones
> which I assure you they would have been happy to do without. As immigrant
> access to these services is likely to be sharply curtailed by new laws
> in the near future, this argument against immigration will be reduced to
> its proper irrelevancy.

Immigrants are much more likely to work hard and produce useful
products and services, rather than sponge off the state like
so many American citizens do.

Too bad more of us don't realize how biased, contradictory and 
arbitrary most laws are:

"The law is a confused morass of conflicting
opinion, monopoly power and special interest legislation."
 -quote from "A Personal Declaration of Independence"

When are we going to learn that government, like the pathetic
old man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, can't tell
people how to live their lives if they simply don't want to
be controlled by it?  Legislated laws are going to become
increasingly irrelevant, because governments can no longer
monopolize information.

-- 
-------------------Craig Green---------------------
-----------------
      A Personal Declaration of Independence:
http://www.infohaus.com/access/by-seller/ZENO_Press

In article >,  says...
<snip>..
>Even in what later became the territory of the USA the original inhabitants
>were treated in a not very nice way. Measured by today's standards, one has
>unambiguously call it genocide and atrocities. However, they will not claim
>their lands back and request the white men to leave. 
<snip>..

Sorry to butt in (and you make some interesting comments, many of which 
I concur with,) but, if I understand you correctly, I think you'll find 
many native Americans (albeit, many more in the past before they were
so completely overwhelmed in numbers as they are today) would still beg 
to differ with you on this point about claiming their lands back and 
*asking* the white man to leave. 

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

Haliho!

At 01:33 03/08/96 -0000, Peter Kovalszki wrote:

 wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I've recently been talked to an acquaintance regarding the origin of the
>> Hungarian people.  And from there we went through the usual ones about comin
g
>> from Siberia, the Ural mountains, Sumeria, etc..  He however mentioned some-
>> thing as well as a "theory" as crazy as it sounds about Hungarians
originating
>> in Egypt! 

<snip snip>

 I was wondering if anyone may have heard of this
>> and if they have could they please explain how the heck this is possible?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Peter
>
>     Yes, there are a few villages, I think on the lower course of the 
>Nile(or in the delta?), who are descendants of Hungarians taken as 
>slaves by the Turks in the 16th century, who kept alive the legend of 
>their Hungarian ancestry, being called "Magyarabs"(ie "magyar arabs"). 
>Actually I met accidentally a young couple in June in Budapest. They 
>told me they are Magyarabs. They did not speak Hungarian, I exchanged a 
>few English words with them, and that was all.
>Regards, PK

Well, that is a new one on me - are you sure that they weren't just pulling
your leg? Although the Turks did have captured Christian boys in their
military - didn't they call them *janissaries*? - it would be surprising to
me that a group of them would manage to retain their Hungarian ethnicity as
a group, since I think the janissaries were drawn from all different
Christian populations.

I was thinking that this notion may have originated with the notion that the
*gypsies* originated in Egypt - hence the name *gypsy* of course - and that
some people had confused *gypsies* with *Hungarians*. Any possibility that
this could be the case?

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Andras Kornai wrote:

> The problem was, that NPA had no idea who Noam Chomsky is and what the hell 
>I was talking about. Too bad you don't read HUNGARY, you would have enjoyed 
>this exchange.

Are you sure? I just don't care about Noam Chomsky as I care less about your
postings. 

NPA.

Dear Plamen,

You probably meant that the CHRONICLES are wrong, not me, who just 
present them.
From scientific point of view I am VERY CORRECT, since I sustained this 
well known plausible theory with SOLID, CREDIBLE ARGUMENTS.
Sciantific tools used: Chronicles, Today's scientific view, expressed by 
credible, contemporary scientists, Linguistics, Analysis of the name HUN-
GAR and MAGYAR, Hungarian folklore, Archeology. This and ONLY THIS is the 
right scientific  approach to analyze the history of any people.
And remember, the  MAJORITY of the linguists does not put Japanese in the 
same group with the HUNGARIANS, KOREANS.
My point is simple and easy comprehensible:

1. Hungarians are of a NON EUROPEAN Race ( since they came from Siberia).

2. Hungarians are of a NON EUROPEAN Language ( well known aspect)
3. All chronicles written INDEPENDENTLY of each other specifies(and 
implicitly sustains) these facts in one way or another.

Even if you ELIMINATE the Chronicles ( an unscientific approach favored 
by YOU and those in some Communist countries), we still can feed this 
theory with Archeology (executed and interpreted  by Westerners or 
neutrals ), with LINGUISTICS ( which points to a NON EUROPEAN root), with 
NAME OF TRIBE, given and used (HUN-GAR, MAGYAR), with FOLKLORE ( which 
unquestionably points to a MONGOLIC ROOT).

HUNGARIANS WERE: 1. NON EUROPEAN ( By Race).
       (Past)                                
                                       2. NON EUROPEAN ( By Language).

                                       3. NON EUROPEAN ( By Culture ).

                                       4. NON EUROPEAN ( By Name ).

HUNGARIANS ARE:    1. NON EUROPEAN ( By the first, second Racial layer)
         ( Present)
                                       2. NON EUROPEAN ( By Language)

                                       3. EUROPEAN ( By Culture)

                                       4. NON EUROPEAN ( By Name)

Now, who were the HUNGARIANS ( Racially)?.Based on  innumerable sources 
we can create the fallowing picture:

                                         CHRONOLOGICAL COMPOSITION
                                               ( Racial Layers added in 
time)
FIRST LAYER            ...  To    500 AD        Mongolic + Hunic + Turkic 
+... 

SECOND                  500 To    900 AD        Turkic + Slavic + Viking 
+Alanic(?) +...   

THIRD                      900 To   1400 AD       Vlach + Slavic + 
Germanic + ...

FORTH                   1400 To     Present         Vlack + Germanic + 
Slavic + ...

RESULT:       HUNGARIANS with an EUROPEAN physiognomy.

Remember: Mongolic    =   People of Mongol Descent.
                   Hunic         =   Mongols + Turks +...
                   Alanic         =  Persians (Iranians) + Romans + Goths 
+...
                   Turkic        =   Bulgarians + Chazars + Avars + Huns 
+ Pecenegs + Cummans +...
                    Slavic        =   Slavs + Goths + Vikings + Huns + 
Turks +...
                    ETC

DID YOU GET THE PICTURE, MR.?

The Hungarian language indicates a NON EUROPEAN ancestry, Uralic how you 
like to call it.
The Uralic Region WAS NOT INHABITED by an EUROPEAN RACE.(any attempt to 
go 10,000 or more years ago to prove a relationship between Europeans and 
URALICS is NON SENSE, I can go few million years back and discover a 
common ancestry for mankind).
The European Slavs were the Gate of Europe in the East as far as Dnieper 
River. From Dnieper to Urals and farther East were no Europeans to be 
found until 900 AD. By 900 AD the Slavs expended East of Dnieper ( under 
Viking rule).

The Hungarian language presents  Mongolic, Turkic, Hunic characteristics 
as the race of the Hungarians presents different LAYERS ( The first Layer 
was MONGOLIC + TURKIC + HUNIC).

On July 23/96 > (Albert Egorov) claimed:
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]
    [ I know lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign   ]
    [ lands who are presenting the Romanians as Gipses.Advancing the ]
    [ idea that ROM=ROMANIAN=GYPSY.                                  ]
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]

On 4 Aug 1996 > (Maria Egorov) demanded:
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]
    [ Write a book or an article about your theory and then we tolk. ]
    [ As far as I know you MUST back up your theory with SOLID       ]
    [ ARGUMENTS in order to convince the scientific community (NOT   ]
    [ THE PEOPLE ON THE STREET) about its validity. Where are the    ]
    [ SOLID ARGUMENTS?.                                              ]
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]

Very interesting Mr&Ms, that hypocrites like you demand from others what you
refuse to give yourselves. This is largely due to the fact that you are both
INTELLECTUAL FRAUDS. Yes, you are both INTELELCTUAL FRAUDS. The fact remains
that Albert Egorov is completely unable to provide even a single mushy
arguement, let alone a SOLID ARGUEMENT, to support his anti-Hungarian slander
that he knows "lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign 
lands who
are presenting the Romanians as Gipsies." Go ahead Albert, support your
contention. I challange you here in this public forum. Go ahead Maria, tell
your so-called "Romani" husband to provide SOLID ARGUEMENTS or perhaps you,
like your husband, are both intellectual COWARDS. 

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

/==============\
                       <MARIA EGOROV FUQ>
                        \==============/

      Frequently Unanswered Questions put to Ms Maria Egorov.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ms Maria Egorov has been posting anti-Hungarian articles of recent in
several soc.culture.* forums. They are as anti-Hungarian as the postings of
an anti-Semite, and should be exposed and condemned vigorously. The thread
began innocently enough when I posted a list in early July96 of Nobel Prize
recipients who were Hungarian. This brought out the anti-Hungarianism of Ms
Maria Egorov -- an anti-Hungarianism which was as odious as anti-Semitism.

     [============================================================]  
     [ On July 28/96 in >   ]
     [  (Maria Egorov) wrote:                  ]
     [ |And all I want you to do is to give a proper              ]
     [ |identification to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of  ]
     [ |using "Hungarian scientists", use Hungarian Jews. This    ]
     [ |approach is more realistic. We do not want to ignore the  ]
     [ |Jews. DO EW?                                              ]
     [============================================================]

NOT ONLY WAS MARIA EGOROV LYING TO ME AND EVERYONE IN soc.culture.magyar,
SHE WAS ALSO LYING TO HERSELF. 

Contrary to her statement, it was not all she wanted to do -- "to give
proper identification to those Hungarian scientists." Don't be fooled by
the virtual compassion in her phrase, "We do not want to ignore the Jews."
Although she postures with the call not to ignore a people, in this case --
the Jewish people, she has no hesitation to deny another people, in this
case -- Hungarians, their respectful place in the world. It was her clear
intent to deny the Hungarianness altogether. They were "nonHungarians"
according to her lexicon. They were Germans, Slavs or Jews -- anything but
Hungarian. Here is her spiteful quote:

     [===========================================================]
     [  On July 6/96 in >   ]
     [   (Maria Egorov) declared:             ]
     [  |...the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are all  ]
     [  |nonHungarians.(Look Britanica,There are no Hungarin     ]
     [  |Nobel Prize Winners.) They were Germans ,Slavs or Jews. ]
     [===========================================================]

She now claims that "all I want you to do is to give a proper
identification to those Hungarian scientists." But note my July 8/96 reply
below to her outrageous assertion of July 6/96, that the scientists were
"nonHungarian." There was no DENIAL of any Jewishness in my post, no claim
that these scientists were nonJews. I was challenging her claim that the
Nobel recipients were "all nonHungarians.
 
  [==================================================================]
  [  On July 8/96 in >              ]
  [   (Wally Keeler) wrote:                         ]
  [  |Being born in Hungary's capital city confers no Hungarianness  ]
  [  |upon a person? Growing up within Hungary, within the Hungarian ]
  [  |language, within the Hungarian culture, within the Hungarian   ]
  [  |educational system confers no Hungarianness upon a person? In  ]
  [  |spite of this Wigner and Olah cannot be regarded as Hungarians ]
  [  |or should be regarded as "nonHungarians" as you put it? Please ]
  [  |explain Maria Egorov. Please do.                               ]
  [==================================================================]

I'm sure that soc.culture.magyar, as well as myself, are still interested
in her explanation as to WHY she claimed the scientists were
"nonHungarians." I had asked her the following:
      |"Can you cite any publication in which Wigner or Olah (two
      |Hungarian Nobel recipients who had been born in Hungary 
      |proper, grew up in Hungary, educated in Hungary, etc) had
      |ever denied their Hungarianness? Is there any proof 
      |ANYWHERE that Wigner or Olah covered-up their Hungarianness?"

She has never answered the question or otherwise supported her initial
malicious claim that the abovementioned scientists were "nonHungarian." She
was simply unable to provide any evidence whatsoever. Her contention that
the scientists were "nonHungarian" was intended to belittle the Hungarian
people, and to do so in a spiteful and malicious manner: "Look
Britanica,There are no Hungarin Nobel Prize Winners."

When challenged, Ms Maria Egorov went on to post further spiteful and
malicious statements against the Hungarian people. She was fully cognizant
of what she was posting -- it was intended to have the maximum slander
value. How do we know that this was her intent, and not just a matter of
insensitive carelessness on her part? Because she admonished me and others
who had protested, to "be careful" in our postings. We presume that she
took care to post with precision, as she expected others to do. 
       
     [==============================================================]     
 
     [ On July 6/96 in >      ]
     [  (Maria Egorov)wrote:                     ]
     [ |Check their names.Reread your history and be careful.       ]
     [==============================================================]

So we got more malicious statements:

  [================================================================]
  [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:         ]
  [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps   ]
  [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
  [ |proudly by the Hungarians, without German supervision).       ]
  [================================================================]

She claimed that the forced evacuation of Hungarian Jews was "concluded
proudly by the Hungarians." She has been unable to provide any
documentation proving that the MAJORITY of the population of Hungary was
PROUD to evacuate Hungarian Jews to death camps?

Another point to prove her spitefulness and maliciousness against the
Hungarian people can be noticed in the wording of her statement "The
Hungarians sent...". She is sensitive to fine nuances and this is revealed
in her July 28/96 post wherein she states, "Instead of using 'Hungarian
scientists', use Hungarian Jews. This approach is more realistic." She was
striving for completeness of thought, the application of fine detail and
proper nuance to a contention. This nuance and sensitivity was precisely
what I was trying to get at with her when she made the very thoughtless and
malicious statement above. I had asked her: "Would you agree that the
following would be a far more accurate way of stating your contention:

   [================================================================]
   [ |Many Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps  ]
   [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
   [ |proudly by a few Hungarians, with Nazi supervision).          ]
   [================================================================]

In spite of the fact that this approach would be more realistic, Ms Maria
Egorov continued with her malicious anti-Hungarian statements. In addition,
she was very grossly wrong to state that there was no nazi supervision.
There was, lots of it, and it was led by none other than the famous Adolf
Eichmann. (One can read about him in the Britannica). He was executed by
Israel for his supervision of the Hungarian Jewish genocide.

Her anti-Hungarian tirade went on with more ludicrous and unsupportable
statements, suggesting that Hungarians dance to the tunes played by
Germans. For instance there was this:

     [============================================================]
     [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
     [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
     [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL.      ]
     [============================================================]

Being a much more reasonable and logical than she, I replied thusly,
asking for a response:

  [==================================================================]
  [ On July 11/96 in >             ]
  [  (Wally Keeler) replied:                        ]
  [ |I don't think he was yelling any message. I'm a fifth generation]
  [ |Canadian and I've never yelled - "I am a Canadian." NOT AT ALL. ]
  [ |Do you yell out your nationality or ethnicity. The salient point]
  [ |is that Albert never <denied> his roots.                        ]
  [==================================================================]

I asked:
             Do you have any proof whatsoever that Albert 
             Einstein had ever denied his Germanness?

But of course, no such proof exists, never did exist, except in her mind.
She simply lost control of herself and started to post wild statements
which she knew to be false and unsound.

But now she is claiming that "all I want you to do is to give a proper
identification to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using 'Hungarian
scientists', use Hungarian Jews. This approach is more realistic." The
clear perception of her postings was that she was slandering the
Hungarian people. She ended up making a statement about Hungarian Jews
living abroad that had virtually no foundation in reality. The evidence I
provided exposed the audacious stupidity of her statements.

Ms Maria Egorov wrote:

      [=========================================================]
      [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor  ]
      [ |camps and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was ]
      [ |concluded proudly by the Hungarians, without German    ]
      [ |supervision). Knowing these facts, do you think it is  ]
      [ |easy for the Jews born in Hungary, survivors of the    ]
      [ |holocaust, (who are living abroad for obvious reasons) ]
      [ |to identify themselves as Hungarians? NOT AT ALL.      ]
      [=========================================================]

I responded:

  [===================================================================]
  [ On July 8/96 in >                ]
  [  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                           ]
  [ |Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home  ]
  [ |several times. He's a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis.]
  [ |He also suffered at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of  ]
  [ |his Hungarian identity, his Hungarian language, his Hungarian    ]
  [ |culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and peaceful years in Toronto,  ]
  [ |Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to return to his beloved ]
  [ |Hungary to end his days in his homeland.                         ]
  [ |                                                                 ]
  [ |A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew,    ]
  [ |who lived in Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the  ]
  [ |Communists ate dirt. He was a journalist and columnist in        ]
  [ |Toronto. I had many visits with him at his home and mine. When I ]
  [ |met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic about being "home,  ]
  [ |I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same situation   ]
  [ | as George Faludy.                                               ]
  [ |                                                                 ]
  [ |Another good friend of George Faludy and George Egri, who is     ]
  [ |also a Hungarian Jew, and who shared their experience in Hungary ]
  [ |-- also had been imprisoned together in the infamous Rajk        ]
  [ |concentration camp, although not returning to Hungary (because   ]
  [ |he has a good life in Canada)does not forsake his Hungarianness. ]
  [ |His name is George Gabori. His experiences can be read in his    ]
  [ |book, WHEN EVILS WERE MOST FREE.                                 ]
  [===================================================================]

And then Maria responds...

     [============================================================]
     [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
     [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
     [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL. Do   ]
     [ |you really think that the Jews from Hungary (those who    ]
     [ |escaped the death camps)came to United States and proudly ]
     [ |said:"I am a Hungarian" or "long live Hungary"? Do you    ]
     [ |really think that these same Jews(only older)would change ]
     [ |their minds just because you changed the government?. Or  ]
     [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
     [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
     [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
     [ |them to be(PERIOD) In the past Hungary, Germany & Austria ]
     [ |called the Slavs,Jews&Gipsies: "RATS"&"SUBHUMAN" This     ]
     [ |mentality still persists in Hungary and it is hidden as   ]
     [ |it is in Germany and Austria of today. In these           ]
     [ |circumstances I know that there are no Jews who would     ]
     [ |proudly say:I am a Hungarian.                             ]
     [============================================================]

So I replied:

  [====================================================================]
  [ On July 11/96 in >               ]
  [  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                            ]
  [ |If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days  ]
  [ |In Hell, you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian ]
  [ |and Jew. He made absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play    ]
  [ |down the fact. He was neither ashamed of being Hungarian nor      ]
  [ |Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN. Although he moved to ]
  [ |Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more than any    ]
  [ |other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with     ]
  [ |Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they   ]
  [ |never expressed the kind of crap you think they do.               ]
  [====================================================================]

I then added the following:
     I overlooked mentioning a friend and ally of the Peoples Republic
     of Poetry, and publisher of many books of poetry and prose, Robert
     Zend, who was also a Hungarian Jew. He was always proud of both
     characteristics and he had never denied those characteristics. At
     poetry readings he was introduced as a Hungarian. The same went
     for George Faludy when I attended his poetry readings. These are
     public affairs. 

     I can mentioned 2nd rate poet and first rate columnist, George 
     Jonas, who is also a Hungarian Jew. (he had once been married to
     "right-wing" columnist, Barbara Amiel, who is now married to
     Canadian and international media mogul, Conrad Black.) In his 
     [Jonas] published works and activities, he had no hesitation in
     declaring his Hungarianness. 

In spite of the fact that I presented several very public Hungarian Jews
who never denied, indeed proclaimed, their Hungarianness, Ms Maria Egorov
proclaimed:
        [=======================================================]
        [ |I know that there are no Jews who would proudly say: ]
        [ |I am a Hungarian.                                    ]
        [=======================================================]

So I asked: "Can you name any Hungarian Jew who publicly disavowed his
            Hungarianness? Support your claim."

Of course, in the face of such evidence as I presented, she was at a loss
to support her ludicrous claim. Now she know that there are several, if not
many, Jews who are proud of their Hungarianness. And in spite of her newly
found footing on Earth, claiming that "all I want you to do is to give a
proper identification to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using
'Hungarian scientists', use Hungarian Jews" -- all of the above mentioned
cultural individuals referred to themselves as Hungarians, for example:

    Faludy is a Hungarian poet, not a Hungarian Jewish poet.
    Egri is a Hungarian author, not a Hungarian Jewish author.

The same for the others. They never attempted to hide their Jewishness.
They were not so ethnocentric as Maria Egorov is. They asserted their
Jewishness without arrogance, just as they asserted their Hungarianness.
But above and beyond their Jewishness and/or Hungarianness, they asserted
their common humanity, something that Maria Egorov in dire need of
guidance. 

And finally there is this silly statement by Maria Egorov:
   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
   [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
   [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
   [ |them to be(PERIOD)                                        ]
   [============================================================]

So I asked her:
     "Please explain why you know that George Faludy or George 
     Egri feel angst ("attentuate the pain") whenever they 
     visited my home or when I visited them? Support your claim.

Of course I never received an answer. It would be too much for her,
nevertheless, she has not denied herself the right to ask others in
soc.culture.magyar or elsewhere to support their claims. She expects a
response, however, being the hypocrite that she is, she refuses it to
others. She has made many ludicrous, spiteful and malicious statements the
past couple months. her statements will not go away. Unless she answers
them with proper humility, they will haunt her for as long as she haunts
the soc.culture.* hierarchies. 

Her statement that "all I want you to do is to give a proper identification
to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using 'Hungarian scientists', use
Hungarian Jews" is an outright lie. What she wanted was racial revenge
against the Hungarian people, to belittle them, to condemn them. I am not
Hungarian in any manner, so there is no ethnic interest on my part to
defend their nation against slanderers like her. I am as appalled by anti-
Semite who slander the Jewish people as I am by people who slander any
nation be it Maria Egorov slandering Hungarians or Gabor Barsai slandering
Canadians. Such people are cut from the same cloth. They need to do some
serious reflection.