Article II, item b.

causing bodily harm _or_ (please note that little word) _mental_ harm to
members (note the word _all_ does not appear here, or elsewhere) of the group.

Definition of "mental cruelty" from _Black's Law Dictionary_, 6th edition,
St. Paul, MN, West Publishing Co., 1990, p. 986.

"A course of conduct on the part of one spouse toward another which can
endanger the mental and physical health and efficiency of the other spouse
to such an extent as to render continuance of the marital relation
intolerable.  As a ground for divorce, is conduct which causes embarassment,
humiliation or anguish as to render life miserable or unendurable or to
cause a spouse's life, person, or health to become endangered."  "McGowan
vs. McGowan  15 III. App.2d 913 305 N.E.2d 261, 262."

Definition of "mental anguish," ibid.

"When connected with a physical injury (please note that the use of when
indicates mental anguish can exist without a physical injury), this term
includes both the resultant mental sensation of pain and also the
accompanying feelings of distress, fright and anxiety.  As an element of
damages, implies a relatively high degree of mental pain and distress; it is
more than mere disappointment, anger, worry, resentment or embarrassment,
although it may include all of these, and it includes mental sensation of
pain resulting from such painful emotions as grief, severe disappointment,
indignation, wounded pride, shame, despair and/or public humiliation.
Trevino vs. Southwestern Bell Tel. Co. Tex.Civ.App. 582 S.W.2d 582, 584.  In
other connections, and as a ground for divorce or compensable damages or an
element of damages (please note the use of the word "or" again), it includes
the mental suffering resulting from the excitation of hte more poignant and
painful emotions such as grief, severe disappointment, indignation, wounded
pride, shame, public humiliation, despair, etc."

I guess Eva and Joe, and a few others coming from a culture where practicing
"mental cruelty" on one another nearly all the time is considered normal
behavior, they haven't yet learned that in some Western countries, it is
possible to cause mental harm without the use of something like a literal
2-by-4. They also haven't learned that the courts have taken a dim view of
it for some time, and that is in part the basis of that overlooked phrase in
the UN's definition of genocide.  It was also understood, long before it
became text in public relations classes, that attitudes, verbal expressions,
etc. precede actions.  Genocide didn't just suddenly erupt when people began
using bullets.  It was there long before.  If Eva, Joe and others really
understood all that, they wouldn't persist in castigating characters and
persons instead of just the ideas.

They might even be a little kinder toward the ideas opining disagreement
based upon their own experience, but remembering they are presenting just
opinions based upon their selective experiences just as anyone else.
Remember the six blind men and the elephant?----or did you never hear that
story in a society that emphasized conformity in all things including thought.

Just remember this, Trevino wasn't married to Southwestern Bell but he
sued--and collected--for "mental anguish."  When people feel driven away by
the abusive language on this group--isn't that comparable to a person
seeking  divorce from an abusive spouse?  Think about it, folks.


Say, Hugh, how does one go about setting up a list group anyway, should
someone decide he or she has had enough and would like to see a list group
where even unusual views are regarded as just a different opinion, and
persistent practice of mental cruelty is grounds for suspension?


Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 








N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

People in the U.S. and Western Europe, suffering from compassion fatigue,
watching the news from Liberia, Burundi, Somalia, and the Central African
Republic, looking day after day at mangled bodies and starving children,
use the word "genocide" rather sparingly.  "Genocide" is what happened to
the Khmer in Cambodia who were systematically tortured and massacred, the
Kurds in Iraq who were gassed from the air, the Tutsi in Burundi who were
hacked to death by marauding bands of Hutus, the Shia in the south of Iraq
who were attacked with napalm, artillery, and ecological warfare, and
various tribes in the Amazonian rainforest who were wiped out with guns
and poison.  These are just a few examples from the recent past.

Nothing like that is happening to Hungarians anywhere.  Nothing like that is
ever likely to happen to Hungarians anywhere.  Anyone saying otherwise is
simply using words to mean what she wants them to mean.  Any self-appointed
"lobbyist" trying to sell such a line to U.S. opinionmakers or politicians
will lose all credibility as soon as the "G" word is mentioned.  I recommend
Timothy Garton Ash's book (The Uses of Adversity: Essays on the Fate of
Central Europe) as an example of the effect this kind of heavy-handed
propaganda has on otherwise sympathetic Western observers.  If this is what
Cecilia means by lobbying *for* Hungary then I wonder if we could persuade
her to lobby *against* Hungary instead?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

To Everyone on the List -

Please forgive this, but I am trying to determine if I have been successful
in re-subscribing with my new e-mail address, when I have been unable to get
any confirmation messages back.

Maybe things are just slow, because of the holiday weekend?

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Replying to Test Jo:

And.... yes..... things are extremely slow!

Good luck
Aniko
At 07:25 AM 5/26/96 -0300, you wrote:
>To Everyone on the List -
>
>Please forgive this, but I am trying to determine if I have been successful
>in re-subscribing with my new e-mail address, when I have been unable to get
>any confirmation messages back.
>
>Maybe things are just slow, because of the holiday weekend?
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 
>
>

Hi Cecilia

At 10:20 PM 5/25/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Article II, item b.
>
>causing bodily harm _or_ (please note that little word) _mental_ harm to
>members (note the word _all_ does not appear here, or elsewhere) of the group.
Etc...
<snip>
Forgive me; I'm missing something here, since I cannot draw a co-relation
between article II, item b and genocide.  The latter's definition to me
takes on an entirely different meaning, on an entirely different level.

<snip>
>I guess Eva and Joe, and a few others coming from a culture where practicing
>"mental cruelty" on one another nearly all the time is considered normal
>behavior,  etc...
<snip>
I would leave this to be answered by Eva, Joe and the few others you might
be referring to.  But since there is a 50/50 chance that I myself am
considered by you as a part of  'few others' - I feel justified at my
jumping in...
Please Cecilia.  I am more than sufficiently proud of my heritage and
culture.  Your blanket  statement above, is extremely demeaning to the
Hungarian culture at large - and I highly object.

<snip>
>Say, Hugh, how does one go about setting up a list group anyway, should
>someone decide he or she has had enough and would like to see a list group
>where even unusual views are regarded as just a different opinion, and
>persistent practice of mental cruelty is grounds for suspension?
>
Regarding this list;  I had the luxury of spending more time on the computer
these last few days than normal.  (A benefit of 'batching' it for the
weekend). As such, it has given me an opportunity to peek in on other lists
while on line.  You ought to do the same.  And then, read some of the
archives of the various hungarian or other groups.  The contents are truly
amazing - to say the least.  In the end, I would be more than surprised if
your opinions and attitude would not take a drastic if not miraculous
turnaround.  Regarding treatment of each other, well, you already know my
opinions and thoughts.  Believe me; none of which would be welcomed on any
of the lists I visited!!!

BTW:  I noticed a post addrressed to Jeliko by you.  You likely have not
arrived at the point of your mail where he announced an absence.  Just
thought I'd let you know - in case you are awaiting on a reply from him.

Regards,
Aniko



>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
>San Jose, CA
>tel./fax: 408-223-6102
>e-mail: 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
>
>

On Sun, 26 May 1996, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

> Maybe things are just slow, because of the holiday weekend?

Johanne,

The proper word is not "slow" but "dead" - and this goes for every listserv
across the U.S.A.  One or two postings is about the speed everywhere.
Just like Christmas day.

Never fear: by Tuesday, the floodgates should open.

Glad to have you back!
Martha - hybernating in a windy and cold Ohio

Dear Aniko;

At 10:05 AM 5/26/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Hi Cecilia

Thanks for the response.

>
>At 10:20 PM 5/25/96 -0600, you wrote:

>
><snip>

>Please Cecilia.  I am more than sufficiently proud of my heritage and
>culture.  Your blanket  statement above, is extremely demeaning to the
>Hungarian culture at large - and I highly object.

However, I'm not referring to the Hungarian culture at large, unless we wish
to claim we Hungarians (I am by parental inheritance "half-Hungarian" and
was partly raised by ethnic Hungarians, despite my father) created certain
authoritarian cultures--yes, cultures--that most books claim were largely
invented in Austria/Germany, England and Russia, or Rome/Constantinople.
The trouble is you can now go from Budapest to Beijing and see a lot of the
same behaviors and attitudes, so what makes them uniquely any nation's any
longer?  Also, I hadn't noticed that you had engaged in any character or
person abuse.
>
><snip>
>>Say, Hugh, how does one go about setting up a list group anyway, should
>>someone decide he or she has had enough and would like to see a list group
>>where even unusual views are regarded as just a different opinion, and
>>persistent practice of mental cruelty is grounds for suspension?
>>
>Regarding this list;  I had the luxury of spending more time on the computer
>these last few days than normal.  (A benefit of 'batching' it for the
>weekend). As such, it has given me an opportunity to peek in on other lists
>while on line.  You ought to do the same.  And then, read some of the
>archives of the various hungarian or other groups.  The contents are truly
>amazing - to say the least.  In the end, I would be more than surprised if
>your opinions and attitude would not take a drastic if not miraculous
>turnaround.  Regarding treatment of each other, well, you already know my
>opinions and thoughts.  Believe me; none of which would be welcomed on any
>of the lists I visited!!!
>
Agreed, my husband and I have both perused--and left--several other nets and
lists.  I'd just prefer not to have to leave either a Hungarian or some
other group that I have some "family feeling."  It rather affects my sense
of worth as a member of those groups to which people normally belong by
their birth, or avocation.  It's human to always wish the best for and of
those one considers closest.


BTW:  I noticed a post addrressed to Jeliko by you.  You likely have not
>arrived at the point of your mail where he announced an absence.  Just
>thought I'd let you know - in case you are awaiting on a reply from him.

Thanks for the information, here.  I wasn't particularly worried about
promptness of responses these days.  Sometimes it's a blessing if they
aren't so prompt.  ;-)

I hope you're having a nice weekend and not limiting it to the HUNGARY
group.  As soon as my husband returns from his amateur radio contest (living
in a townhouse complex with an HOA that lately Hitler would have admired, we
have an antenna problem...), I hope to finally get the vegetable garden (and
other parts) in better shape.

The surgery's too recent still to allow me to sling those heavy manure and
compost sacks around by myself, and I need to talk him out of borrowing the
chipper that requires 3 persons, really to lift and use.  Then there are
those 6' logs that have to be moved and set to do a better job of keeping
the vegetable garden bed in place.

Last year, I think my radishes, spinach, and lettuce ended up trying to
sprout somewhere in San Francisco Bay, and I've now got succulents,
delphiniums, and other miscellaneous flowers growing on the county's side of
the backgarden wall.  It sure would have been nice if whoever first designed
this garden had thought a bit more about confining drainage to water.

I did get a beautiful bounty of what turned out to be perennial nasturtiums
(meaning we didn't get the frost that usually occurs in San Jose a few times
between December and February).  Unfortunately my satisfaction in those was
dimmed somewhat when I read in the paper that they bloom and grow best in
really poor soil, and won't bloom in really good soil...  So, I guess it's
going to take another ton or so of manure and an equal amount of compost.
What's even more ridiculous is the whole garden area, including lawn and
patio is only about 1,000 square feet...

However, I am one very stubborn Hungarian, as you  may have noticed.  If I
could get blue hydrangeas to grow and bloom in Minneapolis, and rebuild a
garden there three times after such things as tornado, 75-mph straight line
winds, and blizzards with January style cold-snaps in April (I used to swear
that whatever demigod determined the last blizzard of the year used the
point at which all my daffodils and narcissi were just about to open their
buds as the time for winter's "grand exit."), then some year I expect I'll
have a normal garden in the former concrete-pottery clay blend of southeast
San Jose.

I'll let you know in the fall whether this was the year I succeeded.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
(considering dynamite this year in place of breaker bar and rototiller in
San Jose, CA)



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Sorry, I can't find your e-mail address.  But could you please also send
me the recipe for Somlo'i galuska?  Or if not, please tell me just what's
in it.  I remember it as lots of whipped cream and chocolate sauce, but
I'm sure there's more than that.  And maybe you could mention what makes
it so specially Hungarian?  Many thanks.  You can reach me at

In article >, 
says...
>
>Thanks, Cecilia, for the recipes.  They sound excellent.  In due time (I
>have none at the moment) I will give them a try - in substantially
>reduced quantities!
>
>I have many different varieties of palacsinta recipes (btw note the
spelling)
>- some are sweet, others are filled with meat or other salty ingredients.
>
>The reason I wondered about Gundel's is because it was so highly
recommended
>and I couldn't find my Gundel cookbook.  Aniko has already provided me
>with that recipe, too.
>
>While everyone is away, it is probably harmless to others to be exchanging
>recipes on the list, but I am afraid that it might become habit-forming.
>Let us now do it in private, and keep the list for general topics.

Hey, Martha, what about the rest of us who wouldn't otherwise get to
know about these recipes? Yes, I have books too, but not everything
is in them and, anyway, one can exchange info about those sometimes ever
so vital details that can make or break a recipe (even if that has to be
done via e-mail.) IMHO cuisine is a vital aspect of any culture and can
often be the best way to introduce friends to something they can really
appreciate about Hungarian traditions and culture! Besides, I have to do
the cooking for my mother these days and she enjoys it when I turn out a
real Hungarian dish! :-)

There is also a lot of history, sociology, science, etc, involved with
dietary traditions and perhaps even Comrade Balogh might condescend to
make a contribution ;-)

I'm very grateful for the recipes and tips I've found here so far, so
please keep them coming; surely a few postings on this theme won't hurt?

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

Martha Bihari wrote:

> While everyone is away, it is probably harmless to others to be exchanging
> recipes on the list, but I am afraid that it might become habit-forming.
> Let us now do it in private, and keep the list for general topics.

Just to second George Szaszvari's stand, I would consider cuisine a perfectly
legitimate topic for discussion for the HUNGARY group, especially given the
role eating has in Hungarian culture.

Honing in on palacsinta, please note that the Hungarian contribution to
crepe making is the use of carbonated water.  Yes, around half of the liquid
should be soda water or fizzy mineral water, stirred in just before beginning
to fry the crepes.  This will make the crepes lighter by virtue of the CO2
bubbles caught in the dough.  If making a big batch your mixture is drying out
towards the end, just mix in a little more carbonated water.

Once tried, always used: your crepes will never be like stodgy pikelets again.

George Antony

Dear Joe and Eva;

(Actually this preceded my posting with the citation from Black's Law
Dictionary, somehow part of the address got lost and it didn't get delivered
to the group.  I did think "portal" was acting a bit like it was overloaded
most of yesterday, so I'm not surprised at the goof-up.)

I wasn't surprised at your responses.  Predictable, very predictable.  I
suppose this is why your postings never appear in the Hungarian Lobby--you
probably think everyone of the 200 some odd people are all a bunch of
paranoic nuts.  And all those letters and calls from Transylvania, Slovakia
and the Voivodina, etc?-- all generated by the same few isolated crazy
cranks, right?

You know there are an awful lot of generally intelligent people--about 50%
of the U.S. population, according to a recent article on this--that still
believe Darwin's theory of evolution doesn't apply to human beings.  We also
still have a large group of well-educated, wealthy Republicans who don't
believe Nixon broke any laws.  And then there are so many well-educated
Germans, particularly in Bavaria, Frankfort, and the eastern, formerly
communist part of the country that still believe Hitler was right in his
treatment of Jews, etc..  So I suppose there are some people who will always
hold to their cherished background and corresponding views no matter how
many differing facts and opinions are given to them.  They'll always assume
there's an equal number out there, somewhere that support their own--a lot
like the old "silent majority" of the U.S..

Sometimes they're right, sometimes not.  But no one is calling most of them
"crazy" or suggesting they have some sort of psychological illness for
holding the views they do.


Fortunately, the world is free in a lot of places, and you have a
right to your opinions, also. You're experiences are just as valid as mine,
although often quite different it seems.   Although I disagree with many of
them, I will defend your right to hold them--as any others, and I will
continue to try and extend those rights to many others.

I suspect none of us in this list group has a large list of diversely
originated data on many issues.  I cited my reference because he has a lot
of contacts he regularly consults, and does have a larger data base than I
often times.  He's been accumulating information for his organizations, and
for the State Department, and Congress (he was a senior aide to Bob Dole for
awhile, for instance)  for over 30 years, so I tend to think he's a bit more
experienced at this than many of us. He is not my only source of
information.  There have been quite a few postings on the Hungarian lobby
that come directly, or within one jump from Romania.  Amnesty International
relies on both first hand and second hand information, and the Helsinki
Commission also.  The Helsinki commission thinks the situation in Romania is
so serious it took the highly unusual step of writing a letter to both
Congress and the administration asking them to reconsider the bills for MFN
for Romania at another time.  Now Laszlo is not the sole supplier of AI, the
Helsinki Commission, etc., etc..  So, if you wish to consider your
experiences and information as more valid to you, that's fine.  Just
remember it is your opinion, and it doesn't make all the rest of us who hold
a different view crazy.

Frankly, I look forward to the day when we get enough computers  into
Romania so we can extend this list to the majority of Transylvanian
Hungarians.  I'd love to see their responses to this discussion--by their
own signatures.

By the way, does the term "quisling" mean anything to either of you?  It's
just as valid an opinion of people's characters as "paranoid nut," just an
opposite view, but equally nasty.  I would not correlate it to you, or
anyone else, in this matter, but others could certainly try it upon someone
or much worse. Does this elevate any discussion, or encourage people to read
, or listen to anything from anyone?  Of course not, if one can't respect a
person's language, one is a lot less likely to consider the message as very
significant either.  Why bother to even read anything by a person who
persists.  I already generally trash most postings by several individuals in
a few lists.  Some entire lists I no longer subscribe to.  There may be a
few roses in the garbage, but finding them is no longer worth sorting
through so much stinking filth.

However, getting back to Romania, while we wait for more computerized
Romanians to enter this group, may I suggest either, or preferably both, of
you to post what you just have on the Hungarian Lobby, and then stick around
for a response?  Who knows--it/they might even come from Romania.  Heck, if
you don't have any objections (I'll wait to see any) I'll repost your
postings to the Hungarian Lobby for you, as a favor.  Let's share your
august wisdom, with more people who so badly need it.

I suppose considering your responses that you are likely to also think the
"First West Coast Conference on Human Rights and Minority Rights in East
Central Europe" cosponsored by the Hungarian American Coalition and the
Center for Slavic and East European Studies of the University of California,
Berkeley supported by hundreds of Hungarian Americans with all their panels
focused on Romania, Slovakia, etc.is all a crock too.  (And no, I had
nothing to do with arranging this conference.)  The Unitarian Church is
involved, also, has an observer talking about what a group of them saw first
hand recently. I gathered they spent time with a lot more than just one
individual.  Oh but those inferior UC Berkeley professors and stupid church
do-gooders can't possibly know more than Joe Szalai and Eva Balogh, right?

Well Eva and Joe, here's the information so you can hop a plane and
enlighten all the attendees and the organizers as to how they are all
wasting their time and to what better uses it could be put. It is Friday May
31, 1996, and Saturday, June 1.  Berkeley's near San Francisco, but there is
also an Oakland International airport that's smaller, but a bit closer.


Registration, accomodations for 2 nights, and meals: $130.  Registration
without accomodations or meals: $75.

Contact: Human Rights Workshop (just the title says they think it needs,
work, how naughty of them! Tsk, tsk)
        Hungarian American Coalition
        818 Connecticut Ave. NW, #850
        Washington, DC 20006
        phone: 202-296-9505
        fax: 202-775-5175


Good luck!

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA
tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA



AE0M, Tony Becker -  - Silicon Valley, U.S.A.

I appreciate you message and I support minority rights in Eastern Europe.


                             Jules Hernadi

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> Her
>accusation that Romania, Slovakia and Serbia are commiting genocide
against
>their Hungarian populations is pure nonsense.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Coming soon to this thread: a long, rambling, angry explanation of how
it's "cultural" genocide and being aided and abetted by evil, Magyarphobic
western Europeans and the United States government. But first the author
will provide twelve introductory paragraphs telling you about how she
studied cultural genocide at a graduate school in the Midwest for seven
years and is eminently qualified to hector you about it at lengths which
would give Proust a brain hemmorhage.
Sam Stowe

Why? Because that's just the way things go here at the Hotel Angol
Kiralyne' Faculty Club Bar and Grill.

Hi George!
At 04:45 PM 5/26/96 GMT, you wrote:
Am I to understand that you are also awaiting the recipies for Gundell
Palacsinta and Somloi Galuska?   Please advise.
Aniko


>Hey, Martha, what about the rest of us who wouldn't otherwise get to
>know about these recipes? Yes, I have books too, but not everything
>is in them and, anyway, one can exchange info about those sometimes ever
>so vital details that can make or break a recipe (even if that has to be
>done via e-mail.) IMHO cuisine is a vital aspect of any culture and can
>often be the best way to introduce friends to something they can really
>appreciate about Hungarian traditions and culture! Besides, I have to do
>the cooking for my mother these days and she enjoys it when I turn out a
>real Hungarian dish! :-)
>
>There is also a lot of history, sociology, science, etc, involved with
>dietary traditions and perhaps even Comrade Balogh might condescend to
>make a contribution ;-)
>
>I'm very grateful for the recipes and tips I've found here so far, so
>please keep them coming; surely a few postings on this theme won't hurt?
>
>Regards,
>--
> George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
> *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***
>
>

At 03:14 PM 5/26/96 -0400, you wrote:

Why Sam!   Are you a closet Hungarian Language Student?
Very good! And even the spelling of the words are correct!  Hmmm??
Aniko

>Coming soon to this thread: a long, rambling, angry explanation of how
>it's "cultural" genocide and being aided and abetted by evil, Magyarphobic
>western Europeans and the United States government. But first the author
>will provide twelve introductory paragraphs telling you about how she
>studied cultural genocide at a graduate school in the Midwest for seven
>years and is eminently qualified to hector you about it at lengths which
>would give Proust a brain hemmorhage.
>Sam Stowe
>
>Why? Because that's just the way things go here at the Hotel Angol
>Kiralyne' Faculty Club Bar and Grill.
>
>

Dear Eva;

Please pardon my dilatory response.  I just finally recovered the rest of my
hard drive a week ago.  Between that, surgery, out of state visitors, and
then flu, it's taken me awhile to catch up on all the e-mail that was
temporarily lost.

At 11:59 AM 5/11/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I admit I only briefly glimpsed through Cecilia's
>probably very wise, etc. posting. She said in
>one bit, that communist and nazi parties are
>permitted in the US, also, that there are laws
>against raising hatred. Two questions.
>1. I thought the communist party was still illegal in the US.
It's an odd thing really.  It was a legal party all during the 1930's, 40's
and as far as I can tell even during the 50's.  It was functioning as a
legal party in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and other states when I attended out of
curiosity (and a wager with an Italian communist friend of mine--he lost,
because he failed to follow up with a visit to my Democratic-Farmer-Labor
Party) in the early 1970's.  In fact at one point in the '70's the
"Minneapolis Star and Tribune" got so fed up with the mainstream candidates
in the gubernatorial election one year, they actually printed an editorial
that said the only adult candidate with any decent ideas, and a respectable
campaign was the communist party candidate, a nice University of Minnesota
professor named Irwin Markquit.  However they also added that since he was a
communist, his party's platform would generally make him difficult to elect,
and that they really couldn't make a full endorsement.

However at the same time the communist party was a legal party and once
actually briefly even part of the Democratic Farmer Labor Party (what the
Democratic Party in Minnesota is called), when it reformed as a coalition of
several parties in 1944, it was on and off the FBI and other lists as a
"subversive organization."  Just being on the list, however, was not enough
to ban an entire party.  It did make life as a party member rather difficult
in a number of ways, and certainly didn't attract many new members or people
voting for it often.  Individual members of the party were prosecuted for
various perceived criminal activities, but the party as a whole was not
prosecuted.

The same way with the Nazi party.  Perhaps some of the people on this list
group may remember a famous incident about 20 years ago that occurred in
Skokie, Illinois.  The Nazi party wanted to hold a parade through this
largely Jewish community.  The city officials denied a parade permit.  Then
the American Civil Liberties Union jumped in on the side of the Nazis and
filed a suit declaring that the city's action violated the Nazi party's
first amendment rights.  A judge actually agreed, and the parade was indeed
held in Skokie.  At that point, ACLU membership and donations dropped, but
that's the way it went.




>2. Was there any successful or otherwise prosecutions
>   for provoking racial hatred anywhere in the US?

Yes, many, including some church arson cases in the south, an attack on some
persons in Denver, and in this area very recently some young adults were
convicted under California's hate crimes law for assaulting a Korean at a
gas station in Los Altos.  I realize these are all physical assaults, so
what comes to mind right off for the "provoking" part is some recent civil
and legal actions against a group in Billings Montana in a situation that
was recently  televised on U.S. Public Television (or was it the American
Justice program on A&E).  Actuallly, since some of the Frontline materials
end up on AJ, it could have even been both.  In any case, we have been able
to stop actions that provoke racial hatred.

Another example, albeit it might seem rather minor to you, is that many
schools now prohibit, legally, the wearing of "gang colors and clothing."
You see many of the gangs are formed along ethic lines and in opposition to
other ethnic gangs.  The colors and clothing of one gang being worn or
flaunted in front of members of another, literally provoke violence among
young males and females.  As an example, the "nortes" gang in California
schools is mostly comprised of Mexican Americans.  The "sur" gang is Latin
Americans south of Mexico.  Another gang began mostly as Cambodians.  I
think that was the Crips.  It is no longer, in many areas, but in some still
is.  Other gangs, each with distinctive colors and clothing, are mostly
Vietnamese, or mostly Chinese, or mostly blacks--and even the last is
divided into at least two major gangs, mostly based on perceived regional
differences of members'origins.

Schools, universities and communities have legally banned the _public_
distribution of certain written materials.  The organizations who produce
them can distribute them among their own members, just not to the general
public.  Newspapers also legally reject some editorial advertising if they
consider it inflammatory and hateful.  Just a few weeks ago the New York
Times turned down an ad by a Japanese group that was trying to say their
horrific invasion of China and "the Rape of Nanjing" never happened.  New
York has a huge Chinese population, some of whom are elderly survivors of
that period.  The Japanese knew this and tried to place this ad right where
one of the largest Chinese subscriberships in the U.S. could see it.  The
NYT said no, and that was the end of it.

I hope this response is helpful.  By the way, if you have an interest in one
of the more unusual periods and regions of U.S. political history, you might
write to the Democratic Farmer Labor Party at its headquarters in St. Paul,
Minnesota, and ask if you can still obtain a copy of their book, _Worthy to
be Remembered: a Political History of the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor
Party 1944-1984_, by Laura K. Auerbach, published by the DFL, 1984. (Their
telephone area code is 612, but I forget the rest of the number; they moved
into larger offices after I moved from MN to California and I still haven't
memorized the new data because I no longer use it enough).

The book's title emphasizes 1944-84, but actually devotes a lot of itself to
the early history of the parties that made up the coalition before they
merged as well. Also, although it is primarily about Minnesota, it describes
Minnesota's relationships with and influence upon the rest of the nation,
and compares some situations in Minnesota with other parts of the nation.

If you do get a copy, I was part of the Mc-Govern Fraser reforms described
in chapters 11-13.  We brought in young people, minorities and women at that
time.  Contrary to the wonderful PR, Wendy Anderson (male, for Wendell, but
he liked to be called Wendy...) was not in the vanguard in all this, but
Perpich was instead, and the barely mentioned Congressman Don Fraser.
Wendy, if you will pardon me in advance, was once described,by some of his
own staff members, as "an amiable idiot who made a good looking governor,
especially in the campaign television ads."  While there are a lot of jokes
about Perpich, "the lone iron-ranger," at least Perpich never devoted a
meeting with a international business delegation wanting to know what were
the unique advantages of locating subsidiaries in Minnesota, to his personal
college ice-hockey career--20 years before. (And yes Wendy did trot out his
trophies and pictures...)

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

San Jose, CA

tel./fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

P.S. re: my Italian communist friend.  He was one of the dearest friends I
ever had, yet we could not be in the same room together more than 5 minutes
without having a heated argument on politics and history--and we both loved
every minute of it.  There were plenty of people who thought we were both
real strange, under the circumstances.  I never agreed with him on some
things, and he never agreed with me.  We always agreed to respect each
other's disagreement, but also agreed that we were each entitled to argue as
passionately for our respective views as we wanted. So life was never
boring.   We both talked with our hands a lot too.  I still remember one
time in a hall in one of the history department buildings,  we were so
engrossed in our debate that we failed to notice that a line of people was
piling up on both sides of us.  Finally, we heard someone clear his throat,
and say excuse me, but while we find this all fascinating, we're having a
hard time getting past you because we never know which way any of four arms
are about to move."  Oops.  So we continued in the cafeteria--in one of the
wide booths...

Mimmo (short for Domenico) and I, and even my husband, worked on several
projects together, such as rescuing Chilean students about to be deported
back to the less than tender mercies of the new Pinochet government by then
U.S. President Nixon, despite our frequent political and history
disagreements.  I still remember him as a wonderful person, and miss those
debates, the Italian hugs, and his espresso, terribly.  He died in the
Mexico City earthquake about 10 years ago.





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear George and George;

At 08:06 AM 5/27/96 +1000, you wrote:


>Just to second George Szaszvari's stand, I would consider cuisine a perfectly
>legitimate topic for discussion for the HUNGARY group, especially given the
>role eating has in Hungarian culture.

Great, anyone want a garlic-dill pickle recipe concocted by a committee of
grandmothers and mothers (it mostly combined "Kosher" with Hungarian
garlic--lots of it)?   Have also multiple recipes for stuffed cabbage,
stuffed peppers/mangoes, cucumber salads, salad dressings, etc.

Would love to have the recipe for the triple chocolate torte at Kis Gerbaud,
that I fell in love with in '93. Does anyone have that one?

I figure it should be easier for me to make than the Dobos Torte, with that
hard caramel  topping.  My husband still hasn't let me live down the fact
that we literally needed to use a hammer and chisel to cut the top of that
one.  The cake itself collapsed and perished in the attempts.

>
>Honing in on palacsinta, please note that the Hungarian contribution to
>crepe making is the use of carbonated water.  Yes, around half of the liquid
>should be soda water or fizzy mineral water, stirred in just before beginning
>to fry the crepes.  This will make the crepes lighter by virtue of the CO2
>bubbles caught in the dough.  If making a big batch your mixture is drying out
>towards the end, just mix in a little more carbonated water.
>
>Once tried, always used: your crepes will never be like stodgy pikelets again.
>
Have you tried combining the carbonated water in the same mixture with
palinka?  Does it work?  Knowing the separate effects of both, my
imagination is delightedly envisioning lighter than air palascinta rocketing
into the dining room all by itself.

However there is a very funny reality to this.  Twice I've seen one of my
younger sisters send some concoction or other that was supposed to be
something edible to the ceiling and walls (they literally exploded--I think
in one she put in a whole lot of baking soda for something else).--She had a
bad habit of only glancing at directions once at the beginning of her
projects, and almost never reading labels.  I also know that if one uses my
grandmother's stuffing recipe, and _both_ husband and wife forget, each
twice, that they've already added the baking powder (a really miniscule
amount) and add it again, it is possible to blow a chicken in two and plant
the entire amount of stuffing formally in the bird on the ceiling of an
oven...)  I've gotten really good at cleaning up all kinds of improbable
messes in the kitchen over the years... ;-)

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA






>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Andy;

I know this is a late response, and you might already have this information.
If not, there is a lengthy, detailed article stating more or less the same
thing in "U.S. News and World Report," May 13, 1996 (actually published a
few days before that day)  Title: "The Angel was a Spy" pg. 46.
Technically, he was not on the payroll, but he certainly was providing
information and cooperating with the U.S. government in some projects.
Officially, I guess he would be called a collaborator or special
contractor--which puts in that detestable category of those whom a nation
can "plausibly deny."  It was not one of the finest hours of the U.S.
government.  It still is a shameful situation.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, San Jose, CA

At 10:19 AM 5/13/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In last week's Toronto Star,there was an article about Raul Wallenberg,the
>Swedish diplomat whose help to Hungarian Jews saved thousands of life's myne
>included.
>According to this article Mr.Wallenberg was a US.spy,and this was the reason
>the soviets tooke him away.
>His where abouts where unknown so was his life or death.
>I would appreciate if anyone could comment on this.
>Thank you:Andy Kozma.
>

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear ;

At 07:51 AM 5/14/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Andy-
>
>One of the few American Congressman is a native of Hungary Tom Lantos
>(D-California).  Mr. Lantos's wife made it her life long pursuit to grant
>post-humus US citizenship to Vallenberg in recognition of what he did to help
>Hungarian jews.  If you call Mr.  Lantos' office in Washington, DC and tell
>them that you are interested in the Vallenberg matter, I am sure, they'll be
>happy to give you more info.  Other than Vallenberg only Winston Churchill
>was given post-humus US citizenship.  Recently, Ms. Lantos succeeded and
>Vallenberg is a US citizen post-humusly.
>
There's only one thing wrong with this.  The citizenship was awarded.
However I do not believe it states anywhere in the bill that it is a
"posthumous" award.  That sure as heck wasn't the intention of the lobbying
group around that bill.  I am somewhat acquainted with the Lantos' and
reasonably familiar with the circumstances of this bill.  The language was
deliberately chosen in the off chance he might still be alive, in which case
we didn't want the Russians saying, "oh you granted him citizenship after
his death, in that case here's your dead American to rebury."

By the way, in the "U.S. News and World Report" article, it noted that the
Russians never issued a death certificate for Mr. Wallenberg and only
returned some of his personal effects.  His own family does not believe he
is dead, among many others.  One thing also the researchers noted, on the
date the Russians claim he died, they only found one entry of something
unusual at the prison, for an entirely different person, and no deaths.
It's all very mysterious and none of us shall probably ever know for sure
what happened. As just a personal opinion, I doubt the Russians will release
the real rest of their side of the story for at least another generation.

I'm sure, however, you will find others in this group who will disagree with
me, and claim that the stupid American and Swedish researchers didn't know
how to do research in Russia and that they were telling the truth all along
and he's dead, dead, dead, that any beliefs to the contrary are just
unjustified paranoia toward those noble communists.

So, go ahead and just believe whatever it is you want to believe.  You
probably won't find a lot of rational debate in this group, and even less
likely any consensus since Wallenberg represents something political to most
of them.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Hi Cecilia:

At 03:06 PM 5/26/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Dear Joe and Eva;
<snip>

>Frankly, I look forward to the day when we get enough computers  into
>Romania so we can extend this list to the majority of Transylvanian
>Hungarians.  I'd love to see their responses to this discussion--by their
>own signatures.

I see an huge contradiction of your words here Cecilia!  If what you claim
is an actual fact regarding the status of Hungarians in Romania; would
computer communication not be one of the first and most obviously easiest
way for the government enforcing that rule to monitor?  .... Think about it.

Regards,
Aniko
>
>>

Cecilia Fabos-Becker wrote:

> I figure it should be easier for me to make than the Dobos Torte, with that
> hard caramel  topping.  My husband still hasn't let me live down the fact
> that we literally needed to use a hammer and chisel to cut the top of that
> one.  The cake itself collapsed and perished in the attempts.

Yes, one needs to be quick and nimble in spreading the caramel.  There are some
tricks associated with it: (1) do not chill the cake before glazing it, as the
warmer it is the more time you have to spread the caramel, (2) when the caramel
is spread but still soft, press a well-oiled knife edge to the top where you
want the slices to be, to get a small trough on the glazing, and (3) before
cutting, place the edge of the knife on the caramel layer and give it a quick
tap with a hammer.  The latter, apart from further adding to the exotic
nature of the presentation and providing your guests with a good discussion
topic, will hopefully only crack the glazing, without demolishing the cake.
The resistance of the cake can be improved by chilling it to the bone, to mix
some metaphors too, before cutting.

> Have you tried combining the carbonated water in the same mixture with
> palinka?  Does it work?  Knowing the separate effects of both, my
> imagination is delightedly envisioning lighter than air palascinta rocketing
> into the dining room all by itself.

Given the low boiling point of alcohol, not much of it would be left in the
crepe.  A liqueur would be better, as that would leave much of the flavour,
sans alcohol, behind.  Say, Cointreau.

George Antony

Hi Again:

At 12:02 PM 5/26/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Aniko;
>
>>Please Cecilia.  I am more than sufficiently proud of my heritage and
>>culture.  Your blanket  statement above, is extremely demeaning to the
>>Hungarian culture at large - and I highly object.
>
>However, I'm not referring to the Hungarian culture at large, unless we wish
>to claim we Hungarians (I am by parental inheritance "half-Hungarian" and
>was partly raised by ethnic Hungarians, despite my father) created certain
>authoritarian cultures--yes, cultures--that most books claim were largely
>invented in Austria/Germany, England and Russia, or Rome/Constantinople.
>The trouble is you can now go from Budapest to Beijing and see a lot of the
>same behaviors and attitudes, so what makes them uniquely any nation's any
>longer?  Also, I hadn't noticed that you had engaged in any character or
>person abuse.

Then, I suggest that a more carefully selected sequence of words would be in
order. What you said first, is not what you are saying here.  (good try
though:)  And I still consider your initial statement to be extremely
demeaning to the Hungarian culture at large.  And I still highly object to
those, original words.

Also, you did not satisfy my question regarding the corelation between
genocide and article II item b - as such, you are leaving me suspended?

>><snip>
>I hope you're having a nice weekend and not limiting it to the HUNGARY
>group.
No, in fact I actually managed to accomplish a ton of other things that have
been awaiting my undivided attention - mostly business related, but thank
you for asking.

Regarding your garden, good luck!  And please do feel free to let us know
how you faired out in the fall.  As I have discovered, there are several
avid gardeners on this list - I'm sure that they too will appreciate hearing
of your results.

Regards,
Aniko

Cecilia Fabos-Becker wrote:

> I'm sure, however, you will find others in this group who will disagree with
> me, and claim that the stupid American and Swedish researchers didn't know
> how to do research in Russia and that they were telling the truth all along
> and he's dead, dead, dead,

Given Wallenberg's age and the well-known detrimental health effects of the
Soviet gulags, it would be a miracle if he had survived there this long.
Also, given the political changes in Russia, people can nowadays communicate
more easily even from prison, so he would at least be able to get some message
out if still alive in the prison system somewhere.

As far as the 'spy' story is concerned, I fail to see what difference that
would make in relation to the perception of the man.  The only thing that
would be different is the perception of the US government in not standing up
for him.  Possibly a coverup, not the first or the last, and certainly a
heroic and fascinating story.  Good material for Le Carre.

>that any beliefs to the contrary are just
> unjustified paranoia toward those noble communists.

> So, go ahead and just believe whatever it is you want to believe.  You
> probably won't find a lot of rational debate in this group, and even less
> likely any consensus since Wallenberg represents something political to most
> of them.

To whom is the latter addressed ?

George Antony

Hi George
At 08:06 AM 5/27/96 +1000, you wrote:

>Honing in on palacsinta, please note that the Hungarian contribution to
>crepe making is the use of carbonated water.  Yes, around half of the liquid
>should be soda water or fizzy mineral water, stirred in just before beginning
>to fry the crepes.  This will make the crepes lighter by virtue of the CO2
>bubbles caught in the dough.  If making a big batch your mixture is drying out
>towards the end, just mix in a little more carbonated water.
>
>Once tried, always used: your crepes will never be like stodgy pikelets again.

Thanks for beating me to this comment!  You have echoed the absolute
"palacsinta law" of my grandmother (who undoubtedly still, at the age of 90+
makes the ultimate in the universe - okok correction; my universe).  The
only other Hungarian contribution that I might add is that usage of sugar is
an absolute nonono!  According to 'her law' the lactose provides all the
'sweet' necessary, without making the crepes stick to the pan.

Which brings me to Cecilia and her question regarding palinka mixed in the
crepe.  I have found that in Hungary all of the 'extra flavourings' have
been added to the fillings as opposed to the crepe itself.  In other words
soaking raisins/fruit/nuts etc in rum prior to mixing them with the cheese
for example.

I've already gained fourty pounds, just thinking and reading the last two
days worth of posts!  Now, that my gang is home, I'd better get down to
business and build some Gundells tomorrow!

Regards,
Aniko

The PS I neglected to George's post!

Janos.... are you there?

Hi George
At 08:06 AM 5/27/96 +1000, you wrote:
<snip>

I've already gained fourty pounds, just thinking and reading the last two
days worth of posts!  Now, that my gang is home, I'd better get down to
business and build some Gundells tomorrow!

Janos, this is where the PS was to come in

How absolutely rude of me!  Please, feel free to drop in tomorrow for the
Gundells!
Always welcome Hungarians, who appreciate good food... et al.  And it does
so seem, that since I've mixed you up with another some time ago, this is
the least I could do to make ammends?

Regards,
Aniko

At 04:09 PM 5/24/96 -0600, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, wrote:

>"ARTICLE II
>In the present Convention genocide means any of the following acts committed
>with the intent to destroy, in whole or part, a national, ethnical, racial
>or  religious group as such:
>a. Killing members of the group;
>b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
>bring about its physical destruction in whole or part;
>d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
>e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

"Intent" or "intention" are words that you won't get agreement on.
Romanians will not say that they intend to destroy the Hungarians in
Romania.  On the other hand, most of the east European countries could be
accused of genocide against their gypsy populations.

Joe Szalai

At 03:14 PM 5/26/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, in a broadside devoid of
double-entendres, wrote:

>Coming soon to this thread: a long, rambling, angry explanation of how
>it's "cultural" genocide and being aided and abetted by evil, Magyarphobic
>western Europeans and the United States government. But first the author
>will provide twelve introductory paragraphs telling you about how she
>studied cultural genocide at a graduate school in the Midwest for seven
>years and is eminently qualified to hector you about it at lengths which
>would give Proust a brain hemmorhage.

She hector's alright.  But, I think her specialty is *guilt*.  And, while
that may work well in cults, it won't work on this newsgroup.  Her attempts
at disinformation won't work either.

Joe Szalai

Quoting Eva Balogh

>>        I am not going to argue with Tamas Kocsis about the ins and outs of
>>elections of student representatives at the Ilona Zrinyi Women's Dormitory
>>in September 1956--after all he knows better what was going on than I.
>>Moreover, I doubt that I could change his mind.
>>
>>        As far as my role--yes, I was a small fish. I would say five to ten
>>years worth of fish. But I assume for Tamas Kocsis, who would have done so
>>much better if he had been around, that is nothing.

Dear Eva, Andras, NPA and Tamas:

I have been biding my time replying to this thread.  Tonight seems to be
appropriate night to do so.

Eva:  Congratulations on your above two paragraphs.  Wise decision at least
from where I sit and write. Andras has so wonderfully summed this whole
discussion up in his last post.  Most especially what keeps popping into
mind is his closing paragraph if not his closing statement.  Thank you
Andras.  Someday, I'd love to have the opportunity to tell you so, face to
face..

The one element missing in this entire thread in my opinion, has been the
non recognition by some of the writers, that the results of '56 has indeed
inflicted deep wounds onto many of us.  And personally speaking, I'd just as
soon let them be burried, than reading arguments that are reduced to
attempts at rationalizing the proper usage of words regarding the course of
events.

When considering the relevance of the proper usage of one lousy word to
today's survival, the whole discussion becomes ridiculous if not entirely
demeaning to human progress.  Countless lives have been altered as a result
of '56.  Countless families have been broken, countless people are stranded
all over the world, many of whom have nor will ever have any connection to
anything solid regarding culture, parents, family, roots.  Sacrificies have
been made, that many of us can and never will begin to even remotely fathom,
while many of the same of us continue to pay the price by simply having been
born.

When considering the above, which are indeed facts from a different angle
than discussed prior, what exactly is rationalizing or even debating '56
going to ever solve? Especially when realizing that the entire debate is
based on proper utilization of one word ?

I would love to think that we would have all learned a valuable lesson from
those days ... and rather than wasting energies on the past; (especially to
something as stupid as agreeing on the proper usage of a word) applying the
knowledge towards the type of future where these sort of debates would never
ever have to come to fruition?

If History indeed is meant to teach us anything at all, after having read
this thread, my only question is - why and how has it failed so badly?
Regards,
Aniko

Cecilia,

I cannot believe that you have meant this almost entirely personal note,
addressed to Aniko, containing over 7,000 bytes for all of us.  After
all, not everyone is interested in gardening, manure and the like - nor
other topics that this letter of yours contains.

May I respectfully request that we all try to direct the mail ONLY to those
who are involved in the correspondence?

Thanks for your attention.
Martha

P.S.
I am also somewhat guilty with my query about some food, that precipitated
the arrival of the recipes.  For that, I apologize.  I asked for a _general_
idea what they were.  I had no idea that I was going to get the recipes
ON the list!

As to the best method of disseminating recipes, by all means, let's
exchange them, but it can be done in private.  I don't even have any
objections against posting them with the appropriate heading:  "..... recipe"
It is all the non-essential, foreign topics that I desire to eliminate.
A little consideration can go a long way.




On Sun, 26 May 1996, Tony and Celia Becker wrote:

> Dear Aniko;
>
> At 10:05 AM 5/26/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
> >Hi Cecilia
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
> >
> >At 10:20 PM 5/25/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >
> ><snip>
>
> >Please Cecilia.  I am more than sufficiently proud of my heritage and
> >culture.  Your blanket  statement above, is extremely demeaning to the
> >Hungarian culture at large - and I highly object.
>
> However, I'm not referring to the Hungarian culture at large, unless we wish
> to claim we Hungarians (I am by parental inheritance "half-Hungarian" and
> was partly raised by ethnic Hungarians, despite my father) created certain
> authoritarian cultures--yes, cultures--that most books claim were largely
> invented in Austria/Germany, England and Russia, or Rome/Constantinople.
> The trouble is you can now go from Budapest to Beijing and see a lot of the
> same behaviors and attitudes, so what makes them uniquely any nation's any
> longer?  Also, I hadn't noticed that you had engaged in any character or
> person abuse.
> >
> ><snip>
> >>Say, Hugh, how does one go about setting up a list group anyway, should
> >>someone decide he or she has had enough and would like to see a list group
> >>where even unusual views are regarded as just a different opinion, and
> >>persistent practice of mental cruelty is grounds for suspension?
> >>
> >Regarding this list;  I had the luxury of spending more time on the computer
> >these last few days than normal.  (A benefit of 'batching' it for the
> >weekend). As such, it has given me an opportunity to peek in on other lists
> >while on line.  You ought to do the same.  And then, read some of the
> >archives of the various hungarian or other groups.  The contents are truly
> >amazing - to say the least.  In the end, I would be more than surprised if
> >your opinions and attitude would not take a drastic if not miraculous
> >turnaround.  Regarding treatment of each other, well, you already know my
> >opinions and thoughts.  Believe me; none of which would be welcomed on any
> >of the lists I visited!!!
> >
> Agreed, my husband and I have both perused--and left--several other nets and
> lists.  I'd just prefer not to have to leave either a Hungarian or some
> other group that I have some "family feeling."  It rather affects my sense
> of worth as a member of those groups to which people normally belong by
> their birth, or avocation.  It's human to always wish the best for and of
> those one considers closest.
>
>
> BTW:  I noticed a post addrressed to Jeliko by you.  You likely have not
> >arrived at the point of your mail where he announced an absence.  Just
> >thought I'd let you know - in case you are awaiting on a reply from him.
>
> Thanks for the information, here.  I wasn't particularly worried about
> promptness of responses these days.  Sometimes it's a blessing if they
> aren't so prompt.  ;-)
>
> I hope you're having a nice weekend and not limiting it to the HUNGARY
> group.  As soon as my husband returns from his amateur radio contest (living
> in a townhouse complex with an HOA that lately Hitler would have admired, we
> have an antenna problem...), I hope to finally get the vegetable garden (and
> other parts) in better shape.
>
> The surgery's too recent still to allow me to sling those heavy manure and
> compost sacks around by myself, and I need to talk him out of borrowing the
> chipper that requires 3 persons, really to lift and use.  Then there are
> those 6' logs that have to be moved and set to do a better job of keeping
> the vegetable garden bed in place.
>
> Last year, I think my radishes, spinach, and lettuce ended up trying to
> sprout somewhere in San Francisco Bay, and I've now got succulents,
> delphiniums, and other miscellaneous flowers growing on the county's side of
> the backgarden wall.  It sure would have been nice if whoever first designed
> this garden had thought a bit more about confining drainage to water.
>
> I did get a beautiful bounty of what turned out to be perennial nasturtiums
> (meaning we didn't get the frost that usually occurs in San Jose a few times
> between December and February).  Unfortunately my satisfaction in those was
> dimmed somewhat when I read in the paper that they bloom and grow best in
> really poor soil, and won't bloom in really good soil...  So, I guess it's
> going to take another ton or so of manure and an equal amount of compost.
> What's even more ridiculous is the whole garden area, including lawn and
> patio is only about 1,000 square feet...
>
> However, I am one very stubborn Hungarian, as you  may have noticed.  If I
> could get blue hydrangeas to grow and bloom in Minneapolis, and rebuild a
> garden there three times after such things as tornado, 75-mph straight line
> winds, and blizzards with January style cold-snaps in April (I used to swear
> that whatever demigod determined the last blizzard of the year used the
> point at which all my daffodils and narcissi were just about to open their
> buds as the time for winter's "grand exit."), then some year I expect I'll
> have a normal garden in the former concrete-pottery clay blend of southeast
> San Jose.
>
> I'll let you know in the fall whether this was the year I succeeded.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
> (considering dynamite this year in place of breaker bar and rototiller in
> San Jose, CA)
>
>
>
> N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
>