"Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" > wrote:
>
>  I'm not an organic chemist /;-)/, but as I recall - and as one could 
> expect - Olah's work was much more fundamental: he invented powerful 
> catalysts (called super-acids) which facilitate transforming molecules 
> like the components of gasoline. That may enable processing the cruel oil 
> inti a fuel that needs no additives to achieve the high 'octane-nymber' 
> desired!
> 
 

Ok, you guys, before you build this "Hungarian" genius a statue in Buda,
let's pause for a moment.
The name Olah sounds familiar.  Isn't this what you guys used to call
Romanian peasants in Transylvania ? 
Maybe this guy is not ethnic Hungarian after all !!!

He is probably of Romanian peasant decent and kept his keen sense of
inovation.

Why this fascination with transforming organic molecules?

It is well known that Romanian peasants in Transylvania do consume
a lot of animal fat ( called "slana"), but somehow they do not have
problems with clogged arteries as other people consuming as much, like
for example Hungarians around Budapest and Szeget.

Why you might ask yourself ?

The answer is in the large quantities of raw onions ("ceapa") 
which they consume with as much gusto.  
Yes, indeed the onions help brake down the molecules of animal fat and
prevent the clogging of arteries.

Good job Dr. Olah !  


Adrian

PS All in good spirit !

On 5 Jun 1995, Tomek Jankowski wrote:

> In article >,  (Vladimir Drob
ot) writes:
>  (Krzysztof Wroblewski) writes:
> >
> >
> >>It is difficult to find out when the first Jew arrived to Poland. They have
 
> >>always been there. Nobody specially invited them nor tried to expell them.
> >
> >
> >>If you know who invited them I would greatly appreciate this information. A
nd
> >
> >While you are at it, find out also who invited Poles to Poland
> >
> >Vladimir Drobot
> >
> That's a toughie, but the Vistula River Basin is a leading candidate
> among other regions in Eastern/Central Europe for the title, "Homeland
> of the Slavs", based on linguistic and archaeological data. We know Slavs
> have lived in the present RP's territory since at least around A.D. 500, 
> and possibly as early as 500 B.C. - although the latter date is heavily
> disputed. There is evidence of several other groups living in or moving
> through Poland prior to the Slavic period, including Celts, Balts, Germanic
> tribes, Iranian tribes, and Urallic groups (i.e. Finno-Ugraic, or "proto-
> Finns and Estonians"). Around the time of the recognition of Poland by the
> Christian West (tenth century), Polish and other Slavic tribes occupied
> most of modern Poland except Warmia, E. Prussia, and western Pomerania.
> Slavic settlements extended as far west as the right bank of the Elbe, 
> although a century earlier Charlemagne had devastated these tribes and
> subjugated them. 
>      As far as the Jews are concerned, Bohemian-Czech records of the ninth
> century mention Jewish traders from north of the Carpathians, and some
> written communication exists among Bohemian Jews of the tenth and eleventh
> centuries mentioning religious disputes among/between Jews north of the
> Carpathians. While the state that would eventually become known as Poland
> was the first stable, enduring state to be founded in the region, (perhaps
> by the leader or warlord "Ziemomysl" mentioned in Bohemian chronicals around
> the latter half of the ninth century?), it was by no means nearly as stable
> as its neighbors, and in fact had little contact with them until well into
> the tenth century - and that was mostly contact of the hostile kind. Why
> would Jews choose to live in a state that was highly volatile internally and
> externally, with only the most primitive of economies? It is certain that
> Jews did live in Poland from the earliest days of its conception, but Poland
> (compared to her neighbors) had little to offer Jews (either those seeking
> refuge or following trade) even after Mieszko I's diplomatic coup of 966. 
> Most Polish Jews will trace their origins to the beginning of the massive
> migrations of first Bohemian, then German [Ashkenazi] Jews after the thirteen
th
> century to Poland. Although this event is highly romanticized today, (see the
> Jan Matejko portrayal of the "event"), this does not mean it never took place
> - in fact, until now, I'd never heard of a doubting opinion, Polish or Jewish
.
> 
> For some interesting reading on Polish-Jewish relations, there's a great book
> by Magdalena Opalski and Israel Bartel called "The Failed Brotherhood", on
> the strange twists Polish-Jewish relations took in the nineteenth century, 
> through the rise of modern Polish nationalism and the 1863 Rebellion. 
> 
> 
>                                              - Tomek Jankowski
>                                              University of Buffalo
>                                          
> 
> 
> 
>

---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    ==>FREE 1yr MagazineSub sent worldwide-314 Popular USA Titles
Date:    95-06-06 21:59:44 EDT
From:    Iouann095

To:      
To:      
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To:      
To:      
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To:      
To:      

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HOOKED IN CROCHET
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HOROSCOPE
HOROSCOPE/ A PERSONAL DAILY GUIDE FOR EVERYONE
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HORSE & HORSEMAN
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HOW
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I LOVE CATS
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IMPORT AUTO PARTS & ACCESSORIES
IN BUSINESS
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JERUSALEM REPORT
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LADIES HOME JOURNAL
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Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.  For more info,  just fill out the
form near the top of this message and email it to their email address shown
there.


Thanks,

Karen Rogers

In article >,
T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>As far as I know his work does not relate directly to the
>motoring public. The superacids he discovered are useful
>in the petrol industry. Some very important basic reactions
>which previously only has taken place at 4-500 celsius and
>very high pressure now works well on room temperature
>and normal pressure with excellent yields.

"Cold fusion" for gasoline, eh? ;-)
But seriously, thanks guys for your answers, which are in line with a
more detailed reply I've got in e-mail from Canada.  It seems to me
though, that Olah's research is bound to have a serious beneficial
effect on the motoring public if it lowers the cost of producing the
fuel and the savings are passed on to us.  Of course, I doubt it will
happen back in the old country.  Mr. Bokros & Co. will see to that. ;-)

But this still leaves me wondering about Techron ... 

>Tamás the ex-organic chemist

And current Stock Market mogul???

Joe

In article >  writes:
>I wonder whether the Nobel winner's name, Olah, doesn't actually mean 
>"Romanian".

It did (somewhat derogative too), now Romanian is just _roma'n_. Another
variant of the same root is _olasz_ that still means Italian.
-- Olivier

From: 
Subject: re. history of transylvania
Date: 31 May 1995 14:51:01 -0500

>>Liviu Iordache  wrote:
>>Nestor wrote at the beginning of the 12th
>>century and his reference to the Vlachs is
>>geographically vague.  Moreover, he suggests a
>>northward movement of his Vlachs and clearly states
>>that before the Magyar arrival the "country"
>>(Transylvania !?)was initially inhabited by Slavs
>>from whom the Vlachs had seized the power.

>ok, here is the english translation of the original
>text (Laurentian Text, p.62):

>>>"(date 888-898) The Magyars passed by Kiev over the
hill now called Hungarian, and on arriving at the
Dnieper, they pitched camp.They  were nomads like the
Polovcians. Coming out of the east, they struggled
across the great mountains, and began to fight against
the  neighbouring Vlakhs and Slavs.  For the Slavs had
settled there first, but the Vlakhs had seized the
territory of the Slavs. The Magyars subsequently
expelled the Vlakhs, took their land, and settled among
the Slavs, whom they reduced submission. From that time
this  territory was called Hungarian."<<<

>i do not think the geographical reference given by
>Nestor is that vague.

It is vague because one doesn't know how far west the
Magyars moved after they crossed the "great mountains"
Personally, I think that Nestor's Vlachs are actually
early Romanians but one cannot ignore that the Russian
Chronicle's references to the Vlachs are far from being
very precise.

>nowhere in the text Nestor SUGGESTS a northward
>movement of the Vlakhs.

You're  kidding, right? Earlier in the Chronicle (p.53)
Nestor records: "Over a long  period the Slavs settled
beside the Danube ›keep in mind, the original habitat
of the Slavs was north-north-east of the present-day
Romania|, where Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie
›...| For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slaves,
settled among them, and did them violence...."

It is not clear if this  attack on the Danubian Slavs
is the same one mentioned in connection with the
arrival of the Magyars  (p.62) or it's an earlier
event. If the first assumption is correct, then the
only area located both west of the "great mountains"
and "beside the Danube" is Pannonia. In this case
Jeliko's claim that Nestor's Vlachs were actually
Franks may have some support.

However, I think that one can safely reject this
hypothesis because:

1.Nestor, if he was the author of the Russian
     Chronicle, wrote sometimes late in the 11th
     century or in the early 12th century. In that
     epoch a location described as "beside the
     Danube›...| where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
     lands now lie" suggests Moesia and, maybe,
     present-day Muntenia. To the best of my knowledge,
     no Frank ever lived there..

2.Nestor s source for the above events was probably the
     9th century Byzantine chronicle of Georgius
     Hamartoulus. During those times Byzantine
     chroniclers used the name  Vlachs  for the Latin-
     speaking Balkan shepherds, that is, for the
     ancestors of the present-day Romanians. To the
     best of my knowledge, they never used the same
     name for the Franks.

3. Let's assume that Nestor s Vlakhs were actually
     Franks. Then,  the reference to the country where
     "the Slavs had settled there first, but the Vlakhs
     had seized the territory"  (p.62) hints to Moravia
     and/or the region around Lake Balaton. From
     Nestor s perspective this justifies the phrase
     "where the Hungarian lands now lie" However,
     Nestor said  "where the Hungarian AND BULGARIAN
     lands now lie" (p.53). Moreover, during late 11th
     and early 12th centuries the north boundary of the
     Bulgarian state was the lower Danube, far and away
     from the Moravian area.  Therefore, the two
     references to Vlachs (p.53 and 62) indicate two
     different events.

Nestor follows the Byzantine primary sources when he
uses the name Vlakhs, that is,  he means Balkan Latin-
speaking shepherds. At page 53 they take  possession of
the Danubian lands (Muntenia  included!?). Later, at
page 62 of   this chronicle, Nestor informs that the
Magyars, when invading modern Hungary, had to fight not
only the Slavs, but also Vlachs (in Transylvania !?).
It follows that Nestor suggests that his Vlachs moved
northward. Otherwise, one must accept that he is using
the same name for two different people. BTW, one can
argue  that Nestor's tale and the Chronicle of the
Cantacuzinos are in perfect agreement (cf., "the
beginnings" post).



>this does not contradict the theory that
>latin-speaking folks did not inhabit in transylvania
>prior to the slavs, but only that portion of
>transylvania was occupied by the slavs FIRST.

Correct. However, the Vlachs were Latin-speaking people
that called themselves by  names derived from the Latin
"romanus" Without doubt they are the ancestors of  the
Romanians. It follows that the  "Daco-roman" people, an
invented missing link, is not needed anymore to explain
the origin of the Romanian people.

>> Cinnamus was the secretary of Manuel Comnenus. In
>>1167 he mentions Vlachs in an army that Leo Vatatzes
>>across the Danube. These Vlachs were collected south
>>of the Danube. It is just speculated that they were
>>possibly Romanians.

>Cinnamus clearly mentions that the  force led by
>Batatzes, and which included Vlachs, was FROM  ABROAD
>›...| we can, again, make a deduction that they were
>possibly collected north of the danube.

Any deduction based on circumstantial evidence is a
speculation.

>>Your conclusion that the 4th and 5th references prove
>>the presence of latin-speaking people in present-day
>>Romania between 10th and 12th centuries represents an
>>overstatement.

>i don't believe i stated that based SOLELY upon the
>chronicles of Cinnamus and Nicetas Choniates

 wrote:
>>>>in addition, the byzantine chroniclers Cinnamus and
>>>>Nicetos Choniates mention the presence of
>>>>latin-speaking people in present-day romania
>>>>between the Xth and the XIIth centuries.

>although vlachs lived in the balkan peninsula (ie.
>south of the danube)for centuries, they were mentioned
>as late as the 10th century  for the first time.
>shall we then conclude that they did not exist there
>PRIOR to then?

We can safely agree that the name "Vlach" was unknown
in the Balkans prior to the arrival of the Slavs (6th
or 5th century). There is an apparently unbridgeable
gap between the  submerging of the Latin speaking part
of the Balkans, under waves of  barbarian invaders at
the end of the 6th century, and the first  emergence of
the Vlachs in written records, several centuries later.
However, a note found in the monastery of Kastamonitou
mentions 8th century Vlachs as coming from Bulgaria
across Macedonia to Athos. Further, there are earlier
indirect records, going as far back as to the 6th
century, that point to the existence of romance- or
Latin-speaking people in the Balkans: Miraculla Sanctii
Demetrii (7th century), the Strategicon of Maurice
(?602 AD), the "torna, torna..." tale (586  ?579AD),
and Procopius   6th century list of forts that includes
place-names considered unmistakably Vlach (Skeptekasas,
Burgulatu, Lupofantana, Gemellomuntes). Therefore, the
forefathers of the Vlachs did live in the Balkans prior
to 10th century, but they were not called Vlachs. We
cannot be certain, for example, whether the Strategicon
is talking about stragglers north of the Danube or of
stragglers further south. However, they are called,
very suggestively, Ro^maioi.

Liviu Iordache

>>I've always wanted to know what the Perfect Woman was, or if
>>She truly exists and whether she is not the figment of 
>>men's weak minds.

This is ... interesting.

A few years ago, when I was talking with the staff at the
Hungarian Embassy in Washington DC, I was told that all
Hungarian women are beautiful.

Perhaps I should recontact the Embassy concerning locating
employment there....(what changes might need to be made in the
Hungarian electric power system?....).
-- 
---------------------------|------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Holt            | 
Richmond, Virginia         |     [This space intentionally left blank]
U. S. A.                   | 
---------------------------|-------------------------------------------------

To: ALL
Subject: Source for Hungarian wines?

I am having a REAL hard time finding a source for buying Hungarian
wines.  For some reason, the Southeast of the U.S. is not partial to
anything "exotic" and it appears that Hungarian wines fall in that
category. The very obliging wine manager of our most sophisticated
market (in Birmingham, AL) knows that there are good quality Hungarian
wines, but cannot find a source.  His distributors don't carry them.

I have looked high-and-lo on the Web with every search engine I could
lay my hands on.  The best I could do is order a case of Egri Bikaver
from Sam's in Chicago.  That's all they had.  Other than a wonderful
collection of Tokaji Aszu (up to $999.99 for a 1947 500 ml of
6 puttonos Essentia -- too rich for my blood) even Fuji (Distributors)
was bone dry (sic!). I don't know what reputation Hungarian wines have
among non-Hungarian connoisseurs, but I find ALL the GOOD Hungarian
wines delightful and a grand value.  Of course, they go best with spicy
Hungarian dishes.

Can anyone help me locate a source from which I can buy such wines as:

  - Badacsonyi Szurkebarat
  - Keknyelu
  - Debroi Harslevelu
  - Kadarka
  - Egri Leanyka
  - Mori Ezerjo
  - Hajosi Cabernet
    ..... and Oporto and Cabernet from Villany Mountains

I sure would be very grateful for some help with my quest.  Additions
and/or suggestions to my list of favorites are clearly most welcome.

Cin-cin.....& egeszsegetekre.

R˘zsa Bandi ---

---
 ţ QMPro 1.53 ţ ţ Psychic Convention cancelled due to unforeseen problems

In article >,  (ROZSAAJ) says:
>
>To: ALL
>Subject: Source for Hungarian wines?
>
>I am having a REAL hard time finding a source for buying Hungarian
>wines.  For some reason, the Southeast of the U.S. is not partial to
>anything "exotic" and it appears that Hungarian wines fall in that
>category. 

Rozsa Bandi,
Try Bende and Son Salami Co. in the Chicago, IL, area. They have 
a number of the wines you mention, not to speak of wonderful smoked
sausages and salamis (Gyulai, Teli, etc.). They take mail orders
and ship promptly.

Phone: 1 (708) 913-0304
Fax: 1 (708) 913-0001

Best Wishes,
Scheer Pista

Thanks again to Emese Basa for pointing out the Times' 8 page 
supplemental  material about Hungary. I managed to get the paper, for those 
of you who  could not get it, let me summarize it, by quoting article and 
picture titles. 

FIVE YEARS ON THE DEMOCRATIC ROAD
Pict:	Elegant Budapest has witnessed many dramatic changes over the past 
	few years, but continues to enchant

'DREAM TICKET TEAM' TO BEEF UP ECONOMY
(about Bokros and Suranyi)

PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT WILL STRENGTHEN COOPERATION

THE FOREIGN DEBT: CAN HUNGARY AFFORD IT?
(some argue that debt forgiveness could be the way out of Hunagry. 
Suranyi is adamantly opposed to any such idea)

WHERE IS PRIVATIZATION NOW?	

BOKROS CONFIDENT ON BUDGET DEFICIT; PRIVATIZATION REVENUE TARGET "WEAK 
POINT"

MODEST BULL MODE AT THE NATIONAL BANK

RETAIL WAR HOST UP AS STATE-OWNED BANKS PREPARE FOR PRIVATIZATION

ENERGY SECTOR PRIVATIZATION ON HORIZON AT LAST

GYULA HORN - THE MAN BEHIND THE POLITICIAN
Pict:	Cutting the Iron Curtain... Horn as foreign minister and his 
	Austrian counterpart
Pict:	Gyula Horn recovering from his car accident last year

PRIVATIZATION PROMISES WELL FOR THE BUDAPEST STOCK EXCHANGE

RINGING UP THE CHANGES 
(telecommunication)

DRIVING TO SUCCESS
(Workers in the Opel car factory are probably setting on an industrial 
record)
Pict:	The Opel factory is a prime example of foreign investment

REFORM WILL COME, BUT IT WILL TAKE TIME
Pict:	Businessman Peter Zwack belives in new wine and new bottles 

TRIP WILL BOOST ECONOMIC TIES

HUNGARY FOR TOURISTS
Pict:	Budapest has charms all of its own

FIVE-STAR BUDAPEST
Pict	: Hotel Forum manager Peter Wolff

THE FINEST OF CAPITALS

HUNGARY'S GRAPE EXPECTATIONS
(winemaking)

Facts about Hungary
===================

Area 		:	93,032 km^2
Population	:	10,278.000
			98.5 speaks Hungarian as their mother tounge
Minorities	:
        Gipsy   400,000 - 600,000
	German	200,000
	Slovak	110,000
        Jewish   80,000 - 100,000 
	Croatian 80,000
	Romanian 25,000
	Serbs	  5,000
	Slovenian 5,000
Main religions
	Roman Catholic 70%
        Protestant     25%

GDP per capita         $4,000
GDP per capita
incl. "black" economy
estimated at           $8,000

 
--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

Event:      Montgomery County Ethnic Heritage Festival on Su. June 11

Hungarian 
Dance & 
Music at:   3:30PM - Georgia Stage
	    Look for Tisza Ensemble

Location:   Silver Spring Armory

Direction:  from Washington Beltway (I-495) either exit 30B(Collesville) 
            31B(Georgia Ave South); btw Pershing St & Wayne Ave off of 
            Georgia Ave in the hearth of Silver Spring, Maryland

*** The Heritage Festival a fun full day event with many other ethnic 
dances & music as well.


Hope to see you there, 
Visszlat,

Arpad Fabian Kovacs of Tisza Ensemble, Inc.

--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

 (CLARY Olivier) wrote:
>
> In article > Adrian 
> writes:
> >in the situation of the two counties, Harghita and Covasna, where the
> >Secui are in majority.
> >My personal experience as well as all the relatives or friends that I 
> >talked to who have been there recall at least one incident in the past 
> >20 years when they were refused service by local Secui when addressed
> >in Romanian.
> 
> Only one in 20 years? a very low figure as compared to the % of extremist
> voices in all ethnic groups of the society... :-)
> Seriously, I believe many such cases may be felt so when they were not so,
> because the more such stories exist in the Romanian "urban legends", the
> more people think they are being "refused service" when really the difference
> of language just created some misunderstanding...  

Olivier, you seem like a nice guy, let's cut the Bull !

What I mean that my relatives and friends have told me about personal
experiences along the past 20 years with refusal of service by local
Secui.

- When I was 6 years old in Sf. Ghorghe visiting relatives the Bread
store attendant refused to sell me bread.
- MY cousin while visiting Ghorghieni with his father where refused
information about a room available at a local mountain hotel.
- Another cousin with her parents in TG. Mures where refused service
at a Ice cream vending place.
- My aunt was refused service in a Pharmacy in Tusnad.
 All this incidents were caused because the Secui refused to speak 
Romanian.
These have happened in the past 20 years and I happen to know about it
without purposely asking my friends and relatives about such things.
There were no misunderstandings, simply anti-Romanian reactions.

My point is that some or maybe many Secui have a bad attitude and this
will only widen the misunderstanding gap.

Adrian

In article >,  (Constantin Donea) 
writes:
|> 
|> In article >,  () w
rites:
|> > I think I read about Prof. Olah, the Chemistry Nobel Prize winner that
|> > he invented something related to gasoline which should have a visible
|> > benefit for the motoring public very soon.  I think it was either
|> > something that would contribute to cleaner burning of gasoline, or lower
|> > its cost through some octane boosting technique. 
|> > 
|> > Is anybody here who knows more about this?  I've been wondering if this
|> > new additive in Chevron/Standard gas, called Techron, is it.  After all
|> > the phoney other additives I tried before to reduce engine knocking due
|> > to carbon build-up, this Techron actually seems to be helping.  And the
|> > engine efinitely runs smoother. 
|> > I know that Prof. Olah was also working as a consultant for a large oil
|> > company and it just occured to me that it may have been the So. Cal.
|> > based Standard Oil, affiliated (parent?) of Chevron.
|> > 
|> > Let's hear from the organic chemists out there, shall we?
|> > 
|> > Joe
|> 
|> I wonder whether the Nobel winner's name, Olah, doesn't actually mean 
|> "Romanian".
|> 
|> Constantin Donea
|> 

Now, this is a good answer from someone familiar with organic chemistry :-)

Matyas
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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A 'http://hix.mit.edu' cimen a MI HOL? cimszo alatt elerheto egy
adatbazis * MAGYAR SZERVEZETEK LISTAJA VILAGSZERTE * ne'ven. A felsorolt
orszagok kozott szerepel Kanada is, de csak 1 (egy) szervezet szerepel a
listan. A Magyar Naplo ujsag. Hogy kijavitsuk ezt a hianyossagot
megprobaltam osszeszedni a jelentosebb Ontario-ban talahato magyar
szervezetek legfontosabb adatait, cim, telefonszam, vezeto, stb. Mielott
elkuldom Palotas Arpadnak az adatbazis kezelojenek, orulnek ha valaki
segitene kiegesziteni, vagy kijavitani a listat. Egyenlore csak a egyhazi
szervezeteket gyujtottem ossze Ontario-bol egy telfon CD es a kanadai
magyar ujsagok segitsegevel. Husz magyar templomrol sikerult tobb
kevesebb adatot osszegyujteni, amint az az alabbi listan lathato. Az
adatbazis formatumaban kovettem az USA-ra vonatkozo hasonlo adatbazis
stilusat. 

Bozoki Barna

> *=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=**=*=*=*=

MAGYAR SZERVEZETEK LISTAJA (State: ON; Country: Canada; Code: Religious) 

English_Name: St. Ladislaus R.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent La1szlo1 R.K. templom
City: Courtland
Zip: N0J 1E0
Phone: 519 688-2098
Contact_Person: Kovary, Karoly S.J.

English_Name: St. George G.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Gyo2rgy g.k. templom
City: Courtland
Phone: 519 688-2210

English_Name: St. Stephan R.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Istva1n Egyha1zko2zse1g
Street_Address: 130 Barton St. East
City: Hamilton
Zip: L8L 2W4
Phone: 905 529-2800
Contact_Person: Fulop, Jozsef S.J.

English_Name: Hungarian Reformed Church
Hungarian_Name: Ka1lvin Ja1nos Reforma1tus Egyha1z
Street_Address: 121 Birch Ave
City: Hamilton
Zip: L8L 6H8
Head_of_Org: Baksa, Csaba

English_Name: St. Michael's G.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Miha1ly g.k. templom
Street_Address: 521 WestO 5th St
City: Hamilton
Zip: L9C 3P7
Phone: 905 389-6689

English_Name: St. Stephan R.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Istva1n templom
Street_Address: 155 Bruce St
City: London
Zip: N6C 1H2
Contact_Person: Molnar Miklos, S.J.

English_Name: St. Elizabeth of Hungary Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Erzse1bet Ro1mai Katolikus Egyha1zko2zse1g
Street_Address: 432 Sheppard Ave East
City: North York
Zip: M2N 3B7
Phone: 416 225-3300
Contact_Person: Jaschko, Balazs S.J

English_Name: First Hungarian Babtist Church
Hungarian_Name: Elso3 Magyar Babtista Egyha1z
Street_Address: 157 Falkirk St
City: North York
Zip: M5M 4K4
Phone: 416 652-3809
Head_of_Org: Olah, Lajos

English_Name: Blessed Sacrament R.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Ottawai Magyar Katolikus Ko2zo2sse1g
Street_Address: 194 Fourth Ave
City: Ottawa
Zip: K1S 2L4
Phone: 613 233-8603
Contact_Person: Laszlo, Laszlo dr

Hungarian_Name: Reforma1tus templom
City: Port Colborne

English_Name: Hungarian Presbyterian Church
Hungarian_Name: Elso3 Magyar Reforma1tus egyha1z
Street_Address: 439 Vaughan Rd. Toronto
City: Toronto
Zip: M6C 2P1
Phone: 416 656-1342
Head_of_Org: Wass, Zoltan

English_Name: Hungarian Reform Evangelical Church
Hungarian_Name: Magyar Reforma1tus Evange1likus KereSzentye1n egyha1z
Street_Address: 8 Robert St.
City: Toronto
Zip: M5S 2K3
Phone: 923-9416
Head_of_Org: Mezo, Pal

English_Name: Hungarian United Church
Hungarian_Name: Evange1likus Reforma1tus Magyar Egyesu2lt egyha1z
Street_Address: 73 Mackay Ave
City: Toronto
Zip: M6H 2N7
Phone: 416 652-3809
Head_of_Org: Horvath, Lorand

English_Name: Hungarian Lutheran Church?
Hungarian_Name: Magyar Agostai Hitvalla1su1 Evange1likus egyha1z
Street_Address: 116 Bond St
City: Toronto
Zip: M5B 1X8
Phone: 416 783-6938
Head_of_Org: Berhardt, Bela
Contact_Person: Raschka, Laszlo, dr

English_Name: Our Lady of Hungary R.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: Nagyaszonyunk R.K. templom
Street_Address: 337 Hellems Ave
City: Welland
Zip: L3B 3C2
Phone: 905 734-3772

English_Name: St. John the Babtist G.C. Church
Hungarian_Name: KereSzentelo3 Szent Ja1nos g.k. templom
Street_Address: 111 Second St
City: Welland
Zip: L3B 4T8
Phone: 905 735-3433

English_Name: Hungarian Presbyterian Church
Hungarian_Name: Reformatus templom
Street_Address: 142 Second St
City: Welland
Zip: L3B 4T9
Phone: 905 735-0636

English_Name: St. Anthony' R.C. Hungarian Church
Hungarian_Name: Szent Antal templom
Street_Address: 1334 Benjamin
City: Windsor
Zip: N8X 4M9
Phone: 519 256-2196

English_Name: First Hungarian Presbyterian Church
Street_Address: 1566 Parent
City: Windsor
Zip: N8X 4J7
Phone: 519 254-3112

English_Name: St. Mary's Hungarian G.C. Church
Street_Address: 631 Giles Blvd East
City: Windsor
Zip: N9A 4E3
Phone: 519 258-9173

Liviu Iordache writes:

> >ok, here is the english translation of the original
> >text (Laurentian Text, p.62):

> >>>"(date 888-898) The Magyars passed by Kiev over the
> hill now called Hungarian, and on arriving at the
> Dnieper, they pitched camp.They  were nomads like the
> Polovcians.

 This part of the text indicates that the writers of the 
 "Tales.." wrote at 
 the time when the Cumans (the Russians called them Polovci) 
 were already in the area, thus the definitions come from about 200 years 
 after the events.

> Coming out of the east, they struggled
> across the great mountains, and began to fight against
> the  neighbouring Vlakhs and Slavs.  For the Slavs had
> settled there first, but the Vlakhs had seized the
> territory of the Slavs. The Magyars subsequently
> expelled the Vlakhs, took their land, and settled among
> the Slavs, whom they reduced submission. From that time
> this  territory was called Hungarian."<<<

 This region could not have been Moesia, because of the next 
 sentence "The Magyars made war upon the Greeks, and seized the Thracian 
 and Macedonian territory as far as Salonika. They also attacked the 
 Moravians and the Czechs." For the Moravian wars the western chronicles 
 are 
 clear that the Hungarians started from what is Hungary today and not from 
 Moesian area.Besides which where is any record of the Hungarians 
 "expelling" anybody but the East Franks form Hungary? They did not expell 
 the Croats, the Slavs or anybody else. Why would they? Even Stephen I's 
 testament refers to maintaining the multiple nationalities. If anything 
 they were constantly importing people into the area,Khabars (Khazars), 
 Germans, Wallons, Jazygs, Pechenegs, Cumans, Schwabians, etc. Why on earth 
 would they single out the Vlachs to "expell"? Later the text says that the 
 "Slavic country to Rostislav, Svyatopolk, and Kotsel" and that is also in 
 the western Hungarian, Slovakian and Moravian area, not along the 
 Moesian Danube.
> event. If the first assumption is correct, then the
> only area located both west of the "great mountains"
> and "beside the Danube" is Pannonia. In this case
> Jeliko's claim that Nestor's Vlachs were actually
> Franks may have some support.
> However, I think that one can safely reject this
> hypothesis because:

> 1.Nestor, if he was the author of the Russian
>      Chronicle, wrote sometimes late in the 11th
>      century or in the early 12th century. In that
>      epoch a location described as "beside the
>      Danube›...| where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
>      lands now lie" suggests Moesia and, maybe,
>      present-day Muntenia. To the best of my knowledge,
>      no Frank ever lived there..
 But even you stated that for earlier times he was copying 
 Hamartoulus, and these events took place before the time of the writing of 
 the Tales.And the Slavs did live in both Pannonia and on the lower 
 reaches of the Danube (otherwise how would have the Bulgarians merged into 
 the Slavs) as it is discussed in the Carolingian Chronicles which even 
 discusses the early conflicts between the Bulgarians and Slavic tribes.
 As stated above, at the time of the writing the border was between 
 Bulgaria 
 and Hungary along the lower Danube, but in the earlier times the border 
 between the East Frank Empire and Bulgaria was in what is current Hungary. 
 See the Carolingian Chronicles. The "Tales..." also state that "For when 
 the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them and did them 
 violence,..." this clearly indicates a war, and histories are generally 
 discussing wars in preference to other events. The only known war in the 
 area was between the Franks and the Slavs from the time of Charlemagne to 
 the Svatopluk wars.Also the "Tales.." is specific about the lower Danube 
 when it refers to the(page 55) "Now while the Slavs dwelt along the 
 Danube, as we have said, there came from among the Scythians, that is from 
 the Khazars, a people called Bulgars who settled on the Danube and 
 oppressed the Slavs (NOT THE VLACHS!). Afterward came the White Ugrians, 
 who inherited the Slav country. These Ugrians appeared under the Emperor 
 Heraclius, warring on Chosreos, King of Persia". So the discussion of the 
 later folks is the Avars. This area is the lower Danube, although the 
 Bulgarians actually had wars with the Franks even along the Sava or Drava 
 river, but it is clearly the southern reaches of the Danube and not the 
 Slavic country of Rostislav, Svyatopolk and Kotsel. 
 It is also well defined that while the Hungarians may have made wars upon 
 the Bulgarians and the Byzantines their focus was on the Pannonian area  
 and not on the lower Danube. It was these Danubian Slavs to whom Leo sent 
 Methodius and Cyrill and again not the lower Danube area Slavs. It is also 
 important to note that at this time the Bulgarians were not completely 
 Slavicized yet. The notation for 915 in the "Tales..." starts "The 
 Pechenegs entered the land of Rus for the first time, but when they made 
 peace with Igor, they went their way to the Danube." This event is again 
 covered by other historians also and refers to the lower Danube area,  
 where by then there were meager Slavs if any left.The next note for  
 930-934 states that the Magyars attacked Tsargrad for the first time, and 
 ravaged the whole of Thrace." This attack was not through the Pecheneg  
 (whom the Hungarians feared) territory but through what is now Serbia,  
 thus again references to the Slav>Vlach>Hungarian movement was not for the 
 lower Danube area.There is also a mention on page 130 of the "Tales..." 
 that Svyatopolk killed Svyatoslav in the Hungarian mountains after causing 
 him to be pursued as he fled into Hungary" this again can refer only 
 to the Carpathians between Russia and then Hungary and not the 
 lower Danube area.

> 2.Nestor s source for the above events was probably the
>      9th century Byzantine chronicle of Georgius
>      Hamartoulus. During those times Byzantine
>      chroniclers used the name  Vlachs  for the Latin-
>      speaking Balkan shepherds, that is, for the
>      ancestors of the present-day Romanians. To the
>      best of my knowledge, they never used the same
>      name for the Franks.

 Disagree. As an example even the current name for Italy in 
 Czech is "Vlachy" and in Polish "Wlochy" or see Hungarian Olasz from 
 "Vlasi". The early Hungarian records also did not make a distinction 
 between the French, Wallons or Italians and the common term Olasz was used 
 for all. The description of Vlach is probably not Slavic but Gothic 
 origin and refered to people speaking another language, it started to be 
 used by Byzantine chroniclers when the record keeping switched to Greek  
 and not necessarily when the Slavs, conmingled with the Avars, arrived. (I 
 am very sure that Cross, the translator of the "Tales..." is wrong in 
 assuming that the reference is for Trajan's invasion of Dacia finding  
 Slavs there. Footnote 29)

> 3. Let's assume that Nestor s Vlakhs were actually
>      Franks. Then,  the reference to the country where
>      "the Slavs had settled there first, but the Vlakhs
>      had seized the territory"  (p.62) hints to Moravia
>      and/or the region around Lake Balaton. From
>      Nestor s perspective this justifies the phrase
>      "where the Hungarian lands now lie" However,
>      Nestor said  "where the Hungarian AND BULGARIAN
>      lands now lie" (p.53). Moreover, during late 11th
>      and early 12th centuries the north boundary of the
>      Bulgarian state was the lower Danube, far and away
>      from the Moravian area.  Therefore, the two
>      references to Vlachs (p.53 and 62) indicate two
>      different events.

 Again the reference is for the area occupied by the Slavs as "where the 
 Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie" which is correct, 
 and not for the specific subjection area of the Slavs by the Vlachs. What 
 it shows specifically is that there were no Vlachs between the 
 Hungarians and the Bulgarians at that time.

> Nestor follows the Byzantine primary sources when he
> uses the name Vlakhs, that is,  he means Balkan Latin-
> speaking shepherds. At page 53 they take  possession of
> the Danubian lands (Muntenia  included!? THERE IS NO 
 BASIS FOR THAT). 
>Later, at page 62 of   this chronicle, Nestor informs that 
>the
> Magyars, when invading modern Hungary, had to fight not
> only the Slavs, but also Vlachs (in Transylvania !? THERE 
  IS NO INDICATION THAT IT WAS IN TS).
> It follows that Nestor suggests that his Vlachs moved
> northward. Otherwise, one must accept that he is using
> the same name for two different people. BTW, one can
> argue  that Nestor's tale and the Chronicle of the
> Cantacuzinos are in perfect agreement (cf., "the
> beginnings" post).
 No, he is consistently using the Vlach name for the Franks.
 I am sory but I do not see any northward movement indication from anywhere 
 in the "Tales...". It is also a big jump that after crossing the mountains 
 they had to fight folks "immediately", as a matter of fact the first war  
 of the Hungarians after their arrival in Hungary was against Italy  
 (Berengar)(See Liutpold, etc.). Except for the war against the Bulgars as 
 an ally of the Byzantines the Hungarians were not residing at that time in 
 the reaches of the lower Danube.(See Georgius Continuatus', Ioannes  
 Kinnamos',Niketas Khoniates' Chronicles)

> However, the Vlachs were Latin-speaking people
> that called themselves by  names derived from the Latin
> "romanus" Without doubt they are the ancestors of  the
> Romanians. It follows that the  "Daco-roman" people, an
> invented missing link, is not needed anymore to explain
> the origin of the Romanian people.

 Not all who were or are called Vlachs are the ancestors of 
 the current Romanians. I will have a separate posting on the name 
 origin later.

> We can safely agree that the name "Vlach" was unknown
> in the Balkans prior to the arrival of the Slavs (6th
> or 5th century). 

 Disagree, the name was started by the Goths who started it 
 to distuinguish between Greek and Latin speakers.

> indirect records, going as far back as to the 6th
> century, that point to the existence of romance- or
> Latin-speaking people in the Balkans
 Undoubtably there were Latin speakers in the Balkan area, 
 all the references quoted above place them there. The indication 
 however is missing from the TS area. However, as far as the "Tales..." are 
 concerned it is also important to see where it places the various people  
 and what names he uses for them in the original Russian text.

 Regards,Jeliko.

 (CLARY Olivier) writes:

>Interesting, please post about [an intended linguistic study on Hungarian]
 when it is ready.

 I second that...  

>>How has the language changed
>>from 10 years ago?  Do you think its changing right now and if so why?

 All living languages change. The vocabulary must have changed a lot. 
 Say, the terminology of politics shouldn't be quite the same as ten years 
 ago... :-) Also, business life, computing, etc. can't live without tons 
 of new phrases. What I do regret is that nowadays Hungarians seem to be 
 "more lazy" than their ancestors (last century) because foreign sounding 
 words are much more easily adopted in a lot of cases without even trying 
 to come up with a proper "not foreign sounding" solution. (I mean the 
 phonetic patterns of Hungarian here.)   

>some particularities of an accent often seem a bit different from what it
>is would be today. In Hungarian what comes to mind is the distinction
>of a long vowel (except for a and e of course), or a long (double) consonant,

 You're quite right about that. Though regional accent of my home town 
 (Szombathely in County Vas, next to Austria) also has a characteristic
 feature to shorte some vowels (mainly \H u or \H o ) *and* doubling the 
 consonant that follows.

 ( By the way, the witty "esperente" poster wouldn't sound so boldly in Western
 Hungary dialects like it does in Budapest dialect. :) (There's a sharp 
 distinction between open and closed e's which may differentiate meanings of
 words. )

 The grammar structure "megepitesre kerul" instead of "megepittetik" (passive 
 voice) has been also invented in the last ten years, I think. It's more 
 and more common in everyday speech. ( BTW, I dislike it very much.)

>-- Olivier

 Cheers,
 Pm
-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>

 writes:

>This is ... interesting.

>A few years ago, when I was talking with the staff at the
>Hungarian Embassy in Washington DC, I was told that all
>Hungarian women are beautiful.

 Not all at all :-) ... but it does seem to me that there's an abundance 
 of beautiful women in Hungary as compared to many other European 
 countries.

 Er... that may hold even with my national bias substracted. :)

 I could name some European places where the opposite seems to be true.
 Even if you take into account that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

>Michael B. Holt            | 

 Btw, a proverbal suggestion for female beauty is the Polinesian Isles.  :)

 Cheers,
Pm

-- 
 Pm
>----
 Miklos Prisznyak   (KFKI RMKI Theor. Dep. Budapest, Hungary H-1525 P.O.B 49)
<A HREF="http://sgi30.rmki.kfki.hu/~prisz/prisz.html">My Personal WEB Page </A>