At 10:19 AM 5/13/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>In last week's Toronto Star,there was an article about Raul Wallenberg,the
>Swedish diplomat whose help to Hungarian Jews saved thousands of life's myne
>included.
>According to this article Mr.Wallenberg was a US.spy,and this was the reason
>the soviets tooke him away.
>His where abouts where unknown so was his life or death.
>I would appreciate if anyone could comment on this.
>Thank you:Andy Kozma.

        I read about this in some Hungarian paper as well. And so what? Of
course, Wallenberg was on the side of the allies and it is very possible
that he was in contact with the Americans. OK, Sweden was neutral, but he
personally didn't have to be neutral. And I am sure that he wasn't.
Moreover, the accusation that he was taken by the Soviets in 1944-45 in
Budapest because he was a U.S. spy--that's ridiculous too. After all, the
Soviets and the United States were allies at the time. At least officially.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:18 PM 5/13/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Indeed. On the other hand, one bright star from the Forum compared
>homosexuality to *smoking.* You can get used to it, you see. It is kind of
>addictive, according to this gentleman. And since you could get used to it,
>you can also change the habit! There is a lot to learn.

What an interesting idea.  The only problem with it is that it's usually
*not* a cigarette that gay men puff on.  Why, it's not even a cigar!

Sorry.  I just couldn't resist.

Joe Szalai

Andy-

One of the few American Congressman is a native of Hungary Tom Lantos
(D-California).  Mr. Lantos's wife made it her life long pursuit to grant
post-humus US citizenship to Vallenberg in recognition of what he did to help
Hungarian jews.  If you call Mr.  Lantos' office in Washington, DC and tell
them that you are interested in the Vallenberg matter, I am sure, they'll be
happy to give you more info.  Other than Vallenberg only Winston Churchill
was given post-humus US citizenship.  Recently, Ms. Lantos succeeded and
Vallenberg is a US citizen post-humusly.

I thought we discussed if investment in a country is a
good measure of "betterment" of the people, and you
did not come up with any proof that it is.

Britain being appearantly a place to invest and a place to export
money, doesn't mean more secure and wellpaid jobs. The
millions of new jobs the tories like to talk about did not
happen, new jobs are temporary contract and low paid,
so
are old jobs, if they still there. The standard of living
is not getting better for those in jobs, unless you are earning
a fair bit more than the average.
Hungarians have right to question these shiny examples...

Eva Durant



>
> All I can tell you is that over the past ten years Britain has taken more job
s
> and plant from their traditional bases in the East than any other Western
> nation, and is currently the world's fifth largest exporter in markets it
> could only dream about twenty years ago.  The Welsh make TV's cheaper than th
e
> Koreans and supply Europe with more sets than Japan!
>

On May 14, 12:31am, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Vamossy's Solution for "Faculty Club" name
> At 07:56 PM 5/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Perhaps if we leave the "faculty" off the name, yet retain our
> >faculties, it would be a great deal more open to all.
> >Charlie Vamossy
>
> Interesting concept; still lacks solution though.  Simply "club"?  Ney!
> Surely,  we can get more explicit as well as original.. yes?
> Re; great deal more open to all - hmm... Hugh Agnew.... where are you? When
> you are most needed?
> Aniko Dunford
> >
> >
>-- End of excerpt from Aniko Dunford


Why not call it the OK Club.....from "Onkepzokor".

The vast majority of people lived in colonies
for the last 400+ years to my knowledge, I
cannot see your stereotyping making any sense.
If the elite was lying down for foreign powers,
as you say, - it must have been the same elsewhere -
in any case, not much to do with the conditions
in general. The national elite can be as
brutal in exploitation as  any "foreigner" -
see presentday Burma.

Eva Durant

>
>         Lectoris Salutem...
>         Five hundred years of foreign domination have trained the people
> of Central-Eastern Europe to be position-oriented instead of being
> performance-oriented. The criterion of excellence was the ability of
> showing the most obedient face in front of the foreign master instead of
> the ability to be genuine and creative... the ability of licking the hind
>                  (kadargyorgy)
>-cut-

Haliho,

Doug Rose wrote:

>I will be traveling with our college to teach English this summer in the city
>of Debrecen.  Last summer I spent two months there teaching as well.  I was
>wondering if anyone had any advice about places unknown to the general tourist
>to go and visit in the area or in the town that I may not have
>possibly visited last year.   Any tips on restaurants or special events that
>are happening there this summer would be greatly appreciated as well.  Thank
>you all for any information you can supply!

Restaurants:


 2 come to mind for me, which are excellent and reasonably priced. The
Halasztanya on Piac ut. (500m from the Train Station on the right heading
towards the Nagy Templom). The menu is seafood dominated, but there are ample
dishes of the less fishy sort. Avg. price for a meal is about 650-700Ft. Good
portions.

The other would be the Csokonai Etterem. It's located right across from the
Csokonai Szinhaz in the cellar. It's dimly lit and the atmosphere makes it look
pretty medieval. There's a wide selection on the menu and the portions are just
right. The thing that makes the place my favorite is that when you're done with
your meal the waiter comes around with dice. Everyone in your party gets one
chance to roll "snake eyes". If you are successful, the only you pay for are
the drinks. I won once, so that's why it's my favorite. Avg. price for a meal
is 600-800Ft.


Hope this helps!!

Good luck!!

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Joe Pannon ) wrote:

> Roman Kanala  > wrote:
>
> >I have to add that personally, I don't believe in collective rights.
> >It's not the collective rights that are the pilliers of the democracy.
> >Collective rights for Magyar minority, if granted, would not contribute
> >to increased social stability, as they would give more rights to a
> >group of citizen, distinction made on ethnic principles. I think that
> >in the contrary, it's the individual rights that should be granted.
>
> Ah, there is a limit even to Roman's legendary good will and
> tolerance!  Why, what do you think is wrong with the Tyrolean solution
> between Italy and Austria?

  Everything has its reasonable limits, Joe. BTW, anytime Mr. Kanala's
opinion is different from mine, it makes me think about the issue
suspecting I may have been wrong.


Peter Hakel

At 04:31 PM 5/13/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys wrote:

>Well, I have a respectable, intelligent lesbian sister.  I don't think she
>CHOSE to be part of a persecuted minority!  If homosexuals supposedly decide
>to be homosexual, then I guess heterosexuals choose to be heterosexuals >also.

Homosexuality is not a choice, but if it is, it should still be respected.

Joe Szalai

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>        Well, I read both of the pieces. Don't you think you have overdone
>it a bit, George?
>
>        Here is a list of my sins, according to you, of course.
>
>        agressive

Yes, but I can like aggression in a woman, when it's honest...

>        distasteful

Yes, when not honest...

>        self-righteous

One of your greatest virtues!

>        shocking

In the context of your gratuitous personal attack, yes.

>        gratitous personal attack

Utterly gratuitous, right.

>        dreadfully patronizing

probably your greatest virtue!

>        vulgar

Actually I was trying to be polite here, after all, I didn't want to
overdo it, now, did I?

>        thoroughly astonishing

No, that wasn't one of your sins. The astonishment was MY reaction.

>        shameless

Definitely, but that can also be a good trait.

>        nauseating

In the context of that posting, yes.

>        I am sure if I tried harder I would find a few more.

You mean you didn't even try?

>Maybe indeed it
>is a personality clash between us. Or perhaps your problem is that I made
>mention of the fact that your friend Cecilia

Getting jealous, huh? Don't forget Sam Stowe and your reference to the
other *unfortunates* on the list....

>couldn't read the Forum because
>she doesn't know the language. Now it turns out that you don't either.

I can read some, but with difficulty. I need a dictionary and a lot of
time. Frankly, I don't usually have that time, so tend to dispense with
postings in Hungarian altogether.

>There
>is nothing wrong with not knowing Hungarian. What is wrong is your jumping
>to conclusions without knowing the facts.
>        I also find it "thoroughly astonishing" that you personally found
>nothing wrong with the virtual Andras Szucs's postings. Well, in that case,

Since Szucs' postings (from what I saw) criticized you, you would find
an unbiased neutral opinion astonishing, wouldn't you?

"kvittek vagyunk"

You're not getting off the hook that easily! You owe the unsubscriber
you insulted an apology. Only then "kvittek vagyunk".

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PC DOS..Win-OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** IPCUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>At 04:24 PM 5/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>I am not trying to butt in  but I do remember Jozsi ba's postings of a while
>>ago. I am sure if George had a chance to read them, he would understand.
>>
>>Maybe Eva can dig some of them out.
>>
>>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>        Unfortunately, HIX's archives are under reorganization and
>unavailable. But as soon as it is restored, for George Szaszvari's sake, I
>will certainly dig it up. Our virtual Jozsi ba' trampled on my good name,
>attacked me as a professional, and altogether used language unacceptable in
>my circles.

Yes, thanks, it would be interesting to see this person's postings.

>If George Szaszvari finds Jozsi ba' so sympathetic,

Now you're twisting the truth...when did I ever hint that I found your
Jozsi ba sympathetic? I criticized the way you publicly attacked the
person unsubscribing who turns out to be a 29 year-old female. I'll lose
any respect I might have had for you if you try to spread any lies about
my sympathies.

>he can
>always find him in his new position as the editor of Nemzet at
>siliconvalley. And if he thinks that we are unfair to the virtual users of
>siliconvalley, perhaps he neglected to read the posting of one of their
>members, starting around March 15. The siliconvalley crowd is not much of a
>crowd and the ideas expressed there I find objectionable and dangerous.

When did I ever even HINT that I had an opinion about Nemzet/siliconvalley.
com? NEVER! Re-read my comments. I only said that although Szucs ranted and
raved I didn't read anything myself that I thought warranted banning him.
I allowed for the possibility that I might not have seen other more damning
postings. READ THE POSTING MORE CAREFULLY.

>Obviously, George Szaszvari has a different opinion.

BULLSHIT!! You clearly show a dishonest streak here which I thoroughly
despise.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PC DOS..Win-OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** IPCUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>Before George Szaszvari goes further and further into a hole and before I
>can read all his massive postings of yesterday,

Massive? Two postings within screen size! Are you nuts? The most *massive*
postings of late, not to say prolific, have been made by you, as anyone
looking through the threads can see for themselves. Don't be so silly!

>I would like to make it clear that our senior citizen Jozsi ba' of poor
>knowledge of Hungarian, recovered within days, doesn't exists. So, let's
>not get too righteous.

Clear? It's as clear as mud. BTW you also have something in common with
Szucs: you're a plagiarizing picaroon.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PC DOS..Win-OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** IPCUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>
>At 05:57 AM 5/13/96 GMT, Laszlo May wrote:
>
>>>>Miert te is homokos vagy?
>>>
>>>        Why? Does it make a difference to you?
>>>
>>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>>Nekem van gyomrom!!! (I still have a stomach!!!)
>
>That's very good.  Now, do you still have a brain?  Can you use it
>rationally?  I notice that your email address is in Canada.  Now that Canada
>has a law that prohibits discrimination against gays and lesbians, I hope
>you don't feel that you have to move on.  If you do, perhaps Russia can
>offer you the freedom from fags that you desire.  There's not much chance
>that Russia will have a no discrimination law in the near future.  The last
>poll I saw on the matter indicated that only 30 percent of Russians support
>such a law.  On the other hand 30 percent of Russians want gays to be
>killed.  If Russia sounds a bit too harsh perhaps Romania may be to your
>liking.  There, homosexuality is considered to be one of the worst illness
>around.  So, just because Canada is making you swallow something you don't
>like, there are still places on this planet where you'd feel right at home.
>Call your travel agent before it's too late.
>
>Joe Szalai

Felreertettel, alneven irtam.

Szeretnek veled talalkozni! Olelni megzabalni.

Az en igazi nevem DOKTOR AIDS!!!

S igy jar legkedvesebb orszagom is Fagland (You call it Canada),
ugy szeretem, hogy megzabalom. My stomach is huge!!! Es ti nem vagytok
olyan sokan, (hogy ne fernetek bele), csak a szatok tul nagy,
mert az osszes part mar lejaratta magat ezert keves akarta
kihagyni a lehetoseget, hogy egyet az eledeleim kozul inditson.
Gyoztetek!!! Ez a hazam, de ha kell elkuldom fiaimat barhova
Magyarorszagra, Del-Afrikaba stb...

Ne feljetek tolem pipikeim!!! I AM A SPIRIT, I HELP TO MAKE THE LAW!!!
I am hungry!!! Come to me! Miert feltek kedveskeim? Ugyis elvisz a kaszas,
elobb, elobb hozzam!!! Mind, mind ide!!!

I LOVE YOU ALL!!!

Dr. Doktor Aids

In article >,
DARREN E PURCELL > says:

>More
>than my two cents worth. This kind of reaction makes MY stomach turn.
>
>Darren Purcell
>Department of Geography
>Florida State University

I don't care of pennies, but meet! Do not worry about your stomach
my is still OK. So you will fit!

Your caretaker: Dr, Doktor Aids

Interesting thread. I've always believed sexual orientation was a very
poor predictor of an individual's character, perhaps on the same level as
hair color or skin tone. My experience in life leads me to believe that
the fault line dividing decent folks from the wolves in human skin runs
somewhere other than parallel to the line dividing those of us who are
sexually attracted to members of the opposite gender and those of us who
are sexually attracted to members of the same gender. I gotta wonder about
someone's ability to judge character when all they're willing to base it
on is such an arbitrary criterion.
Sam Stowe

You wrote:
>
>At 07:56 PM 5/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Perhaps if we leave the "faculty" off the name, yet retain our
>>faculties, it would be a great deal more open to all.
>>Charlie Vamossy
>
>Interesting concept; still lacks solution though.  Simply "club"?
Ney!
>Surely,  we can get more explicit as well as original.. yes?
>Re; great deal more open to all - hmm... Hugh Agnew.... where are you?
When
>you are most needed?
>Aniko Dunford
>>
>>
>

I simply meant that the HUNGARY is not only for academic luminaries,
other folks like to participate, too.

Charlie Vamossy

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

>Getting jealous, huh? Don't forget Sam Stowe and your reference to the
>other *unfortunates* on the list....

George, if your intent is to draw me into this warm, loving exchange of
opinions, you must first inscribe a pentagram on the floor, stand in the
middle of it and repeat my name three times, saying "I invoke thee" each
time. Sheesh...some people have no sense of protocol.
Sam Stowe

> I don't care of pennies, but meet! Do not worry about your stomach
> my is still OK. So you will fit!
>
> Your caretaker: Dr, Doktor Aids
>
OK, who is this poster who can't make a sentence (what do you mean by
"meet"), and then "my" stomach? " so you will fit"?

Nem ertem Doktor ur. Perhaps if you tried explaining yourself again, we
could
all understand this. By the way, why is everyone focusing on the stomach?
Isn't there a more important issue, like so called Doctors referring to
Canada as Fagland? I know, I just should have used the delete button.

Try again, I would like to know what you intended.

Darren

Andy Kozma > wrote:
>
This is the main reason I am greatfull to be
> Canadian,and not very proud of my heritage.Sorry about that Eva,but this is
> my personal priviledge,
> Regards:A.K.

If you are not proud of your heritage (Hungarian I assume)
how can one assume that your contributions to any issue
relating to Hungary and Hungarians are done in good faith and not
driven by bitterness, anger or simply malice?
Make peace with yourself and let go.
Peter Kaslik, Toronto
E-Mail:

>You're not getting off the hook that easily! You owe the unsubscriber
>you insulted an apology. Only then "kvittek vagyunk".

        said you. However, you can wait for that till doomsaday!

        Eva Balogh

>I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
>
>Dr. Doktor Aids

        Oh, my God!!!

        Eva Balogh

J.Szalai wrote:

>What an interesting idea.  The only problem with it is that it's usually
>*not* a cigarette that gay men puff on.  Why, it's not even a cigar!
>
>Sorry.  I just couldn't resist.
>

No need for apologize. I don't think you were ever able to resist. C'est la
vive. Some poeple are nazi, others are simple 'felnotas' and there are some
'bunko',too. :-))

J.Zsargo

>Felreertettel, alneven irtam.
>
>Szeretnek veled talalkozni! Olelni megzabalni.
>
>Az en igazi nevem DOKTOR AIDS!!!
>
>S igy jar legkedvesebb orszagom is Fagland (You call it Canada),
>ugy szeretem, hogy megzabalom. My stomach is huge!!! Es ti nem vagytok
>olyan sokan, (hogy ne fernetek bele), csak a szatok tul nagy,
>mert az osszes part mar lejaratta magat ezert keves akarta
>kihagyni a lehetoseget, hogy egyet az eledeleim kozul inditson.
>Gyoztetek!!! Ez a hazam, de ha kell elkuldom fiaimat barhova
>Magyarorszagra, Del-Afrikaba stb...
>
>Ne feljetek tolem pipikeim!!! I AM A SPIRIT, I HELP TO MAKE THE LAW!!!
>I am hungry!!! Come to me! Miert feltek kedveskeim? Ugyis elvisz a kaszas,
>elobb, elobb hozzam!!! Mind, mind ide!!!
>
>I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
>
>Dr. Doktor Aids

I think you need a doctor. And I am not joking now.

J.Zsargo

>A. Kozma wrote:
>
>>As you can see I am an avid reader of Forum.The unfortunate thing is,that
>>if you read it for a while my stomach is not only getting updet(hanyinger),bu
t
>>as I mentioned before my opinion of the Hungarian people and my experience
>>when I "lived"in Hungary is not the most enthusiastic.
>
>I do not understand why someone does something if it does not feel good. If A.
>Kozma's stomach getting updet(hanyinger), he should finish to read (unless
>he likes to have 'hanyinger'). I do not like Forum either (and I do not read i
t
>just occasionally), but not because I have anything with my stomach, but
because
> it is not possible to have a normal debate there (and this is valid to almost
>everyone including E.Balogh,etc). What I hate is to listen to these complains
>about those guys on the Forum actually behind their back (no possibility to
>respond). The Forum became the blacksheep here, where everybody can freely
>split. If some reader here thinks that those guys on Forum represent any real
>danger to anyone and can prove this, that is OK, than you can (and should) try
>to make them removed from internet or HIX. But this should be done on the Foru
m
> in front of those and not here. If this is not possible then one have to
except
>the existance of such guys, if you don't like their post don't read them nobod
y
>force you to do so.
>
>J.Zsargo
>
>And J.Zsargo i do not understand why you do not understand.It is my
privilage to get an upset stomach.It is also my privilage to state some
facts about Forum.
I am sorry if you hate these complains.I do not hate Forum,nor the people
who do write there.It is interresting that you are the one who writes that
you can notm have a normal debate there.I would be willing to face those
people,I wouldn't hide from them.If you feel that the Forum is a valid
thoguht provoking Forum,
you are allways welcome to read it and join them with sympathy.
I am not advocating to remove them from Hix.I am only stating my
feelings,wich I think I am entiteled to.It is also my intention to read that
thread,and if I wish I can awnser or not what ever I wish to do.
As far as I am concerned it is not up to you or anyone else to tell me or
suggest to me what I should do.
That was one of the reasons I left Hungary,and later on the province of
Quebec,when the governement told me what language I can use and my kids to
be educated in.
I hope maybe now you will understand how I feel,and as long there is a way
to express myself in a different thread as the forum I will do so.
With best Regards:Andy Kozma.

> Andy Kozma > wrote:
> >
> This is the main reason I am greatfull to be
> > Canadian,and not very proud of my heritage.Sorry about that Eva,but
this is
> > my personal priviledge,
> > Regards:A.K.

Andy, you may be hurt by what I write, but that is not meant by me. I feel
sorry for you for what you have expressed. I am American first and second
and probably even third. But I am not troubled by my heritage. Hungary, is
not different from many other countries. At one time or another everybody
did things that they should be not proud of but another time they behaved
magnificently, both as a nation and as individuals. No place is like Lake
Wobegone, where the children are all above average.

Having had a chance to travel all over the world and spend time in many
places, I came to the conclusions, that on the average, people are the
same.

Maybe your expectations are too high. Hungarians, through the ages did do
some stupid things, please tell me who did not. They have also accomplished
many, sometimes almost impossible things, one of which is surviving against
incredible odds.

There is nothing to be ashamed of for anyone for being or having been
Hungarian. There is nothing to be ashamed of for not being a son or
daughter of the most magnificient, the most magnanimous and the most fair
nation, because ther are no such nations. In history, it is only in recent
days that average individuals have any influence over the events occuring
near them. Even that influence is subject to a broad range of
possibilities.

You should really start out of yourself, are you satisfied with who you
are? If yes, you are doing OK. Your parents whatever location they came
from probably had hard times and maybe they coud or couldn't have much
influence over their own fate, but probably they did their best under the
circumstances. A nation is composed of individuals, look at Hungary the
same way.

You will see some crazies, some brilliant minds, some hardworkers and some
crooks, some well educated and intelligent and some non-intelligent even if
well educated, and most in between. I am probably much older than you are,
and still remember the farmers hand reaping wheat in the hot summers, and
women working on threshers, the harder was the work the more they sung (and
swore also). I remember the small earthen floor village houses, with very
limited room occupied by extended families. Those times , in lifestyle were
not very different from the days when major, economy forced migrations took
place into the US (and even to Canada) from Hungary. Those people did not
know English, were not trained in politically correct professions,
and did not know what they are facing, but they came and worked hard, in
the mines, in the steelmills, anywhere where the industrial growth of the
US needed cheap labor. But they were capable of improving themselves and
many of the rustbelt (or the even earlier disintegrated regions, the
minefield) cities had developed their ethnic neighborhoods, they built
their churches, they organized some self help societies and their children
became more educated and better off. That ability is something to be proud
of.

I knew several second generation folks of that generation which arrived in
this country around the turn of the century. They were all proud of their
parents and most taught their children, the third generation some part of
Hungarian heritage, even if it was only good food. Most of them have very
little knowledge of life in Hungary now or in their grandparents time. They
do not blame Hungary for the fate of their grandparents, even though they
would have good reason to do so. It is like belonging to an extended
family, heck,I do not like all of my relatives, but that does not mean that
I am not proud of my heritage.

One more thing I would like to mention, and that is the written history,
regarding Hungary. Some of it is overglorifying, some of it is self
flagellating and some is sheer BS. So if your feelings are based on some of
the stuff that is written about Hungary, do not despair, it actually
happened both worse and better.

I started out with stating that I am American, but I will admit that one of
my dreams is one day to open a good Hungarian seafood restaurant and so as
not being impartial to my son's heritage call it the Hunky Dory.

Smile, it cannot be as bad as you stated, besides some of the differences
between Canada and Hungary are lessening, like the government deficits.

Regards,Jeliko.

Mr. Szaszvari seems to be a bit dense. (I feel perfectly justified
in saying this after *my* "intellectual dishonesty" and other labels of
similar ilk.) He has difficulty understanding simple concepts like: somebody
doesn't exist. Also, he seems to be deficient in the sense of humor
department and therefore he doesn't seem to appreciate sarcasm and irony.
So, I will be entirely straight in my presentation of facts. Or at least I
will try.

        (1) I don't care who it is, woman, man, 29 years old, younger or
older, I find it extraordinary that someone announces to the whole world
that he/she is going to unsubscribe this list *tonight* (why not
immediately? it takes only a few key strokes!) because he/she cannot stand
all this immaturity. This is while two very interesting threads are being
discussed by all these ridiculous, immature people, like our Greek
professor, or Jeliko, whose knowledge of early Hungarian history is really
astonishing. And if she finds this discussion of the western campaigns of
our ancestors immature, what about a very serious topic, freedom of speech
and Andras's republication of Akos Rona-Tas's really moving piece on how the
Forum has gone to the dogs. Sorry, I can't offer a better newsgroup on
Hungarian affairs than this one. In any language. I also suspected that a
person who writes such a letter is not really complaining about immaturity
but perhaps something else. And yes, I suggested, in an ironic vain, to join
the Nemzet or the Forum where perhaps the discussions are of higher quality.
(Watch out, George--this is irony!) And the word "maturity" tickled my sense
of humor and brought to mind the topic of Uncle Joe Toth.

        (2) Uncle Joe Toth! well, George still doesn't understand that Uncle
Joe Toth doesn't exist and if doesn't understand this he cannot possibly
understand what is going on in the Nemzet, the Forum, and earlier Hungary.
Because, George Szaszvari, there is basically only one real live man. His
name is Andras Pellionisz and all these characters: Andras Szucs, Joe Toth,
Janos Kiss, Istvan Kovacs, Lajos Nagy are all the figments of his
imagination. And Andras Pellionisz tries to make these virtual characters
real by giving them "identities." Joe Toth who appeared maybe twice on the
Forum was supposed to be an old Hungarian who is about 70 and who came here
as a child--old peasant type, practically illiterate in English as well as
in Hungarian. And Andras Pellionisz must have had lot of fun of *creating*
Jozsi ba' with all his ridiculous grammatical errors and misspellings--ez he
called him. Needless to say, Jozsi ba' had a few unkind words for such
*pseudo-liberals* as myself who is ruining Hungary. Then Uncle Joe
disappeared. But not for long. I was astonished to discover him a couple of
weeks later as the new editor of Nemzet, his Hungarian perfect, and his
writing style bearing a suspicious resemblance to that of Andras Pellionisz.
Yes, I was offended by calling us a bunch of immature idiots and my sense of
humor propelled me to send the person to a more *mature* person, Uncle Joe.

        (3) Then arrives George Szaszvari, who is mad at Eva Balogh because
Eva Balogh told Cecilia that she couldn't possibly determine whether our
reaction to the antisemitism on the Forum is overreaction or not because she
doesn't know any Hungarian and therefore can't read the Forum. Now it turns
out that (a) George Szaszvari is very fond of Cecilia and takes this as a
personal insult; (b) it turns out that George himself doesn't know enough
Hungarian and therefore considers it an attack on all those who can't speak
Hungarian, most importantly himself. Meanwhile he never realizes--or he
doesn't want to realize it--that the criticism on my part had nothing to do
with language but the lack of familiarity with those discussions on the
Forum which most of us find objectionable. How can anyone possibly announce
that we are overreacting who had never had the chance of reading of the
offending pieces? So, Andras Kornai, Gabor Fencsik, Akos Rona-Tas, Gabor
Farkas, Eva Balogh are all overreacting. I thought then and I think now that
it was a mistake on her part to make such a pronouncement without knowing
the facts.

        (4) But perhaps George Szaszvari also thinks, like Cecilia, that
this is just overreaction on our part, after all, he had no objection to
either the delivery or the contents of Andras Szucs's messages written in a
language he is thoroughly familiar with. And anyone who finds Andras Szucs a
reasonable man with a reasonable message, might also find the political
contents of his publication, the Nemzet, and his other writings under
different disguises in other internet publication. If that is the case,
George and I have not much to say to each other.

        Eva Balogh

>At 12:18 PM 5/13/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>        Indeed. On the other hand, one bright star from the Forum compared
>>homosexuality to *smoking.* You can get used to it, you see. It is kind of
>>addictive, according to this gentleman. And since you could get used to it,
>>you can also change the habit! There is a lot to learn.
>
>What an interesting idea.  The only problem with it is that it's usually
>*not* a cigarette that gay men puff on.  Why, it's not even a cigar!
>
>Sorry.  I just couldn't resist.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>Just a fast question:what are you puffing on Joe?

>In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>>
>>At 05:57 AM 5/13/96 GMT, Laszlo May wrote:
>>
>>>>>Miert te is homokos vagy?
>>>>
>>>>        Why? Does it make a difference to you?
>>>>
>>>>        Eva Balogh
>>>
>>>Nekem van gyomrom!!! (I still have a stomach!!!)
>>
>>That's very good.  Now, do you still have a brain?  Can you use it
>>rationally?  I notice that your email address is in Canada.  Now that Canada
>>has a law that prohibits discrimination against gays and lesbians, I hope
>>you don't feel that you have to move on.  If you do, perhaps Russia can
>>offer you the freedom from fags that you desire.  There's not much chance
>>that Russia will have a no discrimination law in the near future.  The last
>>poll I saw on the matter indicated that only 30 percent of Russians support
>>such a law.  On the other hand 30 percent of Russians want gays to be
>>killed.  If Russia sounds a bit too harsh perhaps Romania may be to your
>>liking.  There, homosexuality is considered to be one of the worst illness
>>around.  So, just because Canada is making you swallow something you don't
>>like, there are still places on this planet where you'd feel right at home.
>>Call your travel agent before it's too late.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Felreertettel, alneven irtam.
>
>Szeretnek veled talalkozni! Olelni megzabalni.
>
>Az en igazi nevem DOKTOR AIDS!!!
>
>S igy jar legkedvesebb orszagom is Fagland (You call it Canada),
>ugy szeretem, hogy megzabalom. My stomach is huge!!! Es ti nem vagytok
>olyan sokan, (hogy ne fernetek bele), csak a szatok tul nagy,
>mert az osszes part mar lejaratta magat ezert keves akarta
>kihagyni a lehetoseget, hogy egyet az eledeleim kozul inditson.
>Gyoztetek!!! Ez a hazam, de ha kell elkuldom fiaimat barhova
>Magyarorszagra, Del-Afrikaba stb...
>
>Ne feljetek tolem pipikeim!!! I AM A SPIRIT, I HELP TO MAKE THE LAW!!!
>I am hungry!!! Come to me! Miert feltek kedveskeim? Ugyis elvisz a kaszas,
>elobb, elobb hozzam!!! Mind, mind ide!!!
>
>I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
>
>Dr. Doktor Aids
>
>What a disgusting letter.You are sorry to say but very disturb person.What
right do you have to call a Country "Fagland" Canada.If there is anything I
could say then the US is murderland,corruption,and dishonesty.But I will not
say it since my Son(who is married)lives in that wonderful country.
I think when you called yourself Dr.Aids,you where right.
A.Kpzma

This is in response to both the earlier discussion and to the question by
Dr P.

Starting with the latter. There is not really any "derogatory" commentary
about the Szekelys in Hungary. The closest you can get to is that they are
*smart* not only in the accepted sense of the word. Perhaps an illustration
is better. The story goes that the Szekelys petitioned a nearby landlord
for permission to collect birdeggs in his forrest and a permission to cut
some trees down to enable carrying their ladders in the forrest. When the
landlord visited his forrest he found that a 40 ft path was cut through it.
When he questioned the Szekelys, they told him that they always carry the
ladder crosswise.

Now the second part, who are they. I would like to point out that the
following are just speculation and I do not have any direct information.

The Hungarians arriving in Hungary were a mixed group with some Finnugor
and other, Khabar (possibly Turkish tribes). It is indicated from records
that the latter joined up in the neighborhood of Khazaria. (I am using
possibly because some of the Arab writes, flatly state that the Khazars did
not speak a Turkic language, while Identifying the Bulgars, Pechenegs and
Ghuzz as Turkic languages, on the other hand some of them did call the
Hungarians Turk also but not all, some used the madzsar, maghar, etc
designation.)

It is also known that other tribes related to the Hungarians were floating
around allied with Bulgars, and some in the Caspian region. Thus it is not
proper to assume that only the tribal alliance that arrived in Hungary in
the IX century contained Finnugor fractions.

The movement from the east to the west always involved tribal alliances.

It is possible that other fragments of Finnugors were also involved in the
previous movements. (As a matter of fact why would it be the exclusive act
of only one group?)

As an example, it is known that there was a second Avar wave arriving in
the Carpathian basin and particularly in the Szamos/Kukullo/ Temes area in
the end of the VIII century. These guys had a different grave decoration
custom than the earlier Avars. Note that Hungarians were by then residing
near the other side of the Carpathians and that the Arabic writers cite a
bunch of non-Turkish, non-Slav folks in the neighborhood, many of which
cannot be clearly identified with curretly known nations.

The Carolingian destruction and the internecine warfare of the Avars, if
anywhere left some population in the eastern border mountains of the
Hungarian plains. The Bulgarian incursion into the area probably found
folks in the region. Without *governmental* interference, not everybody
packed up and left, besides which where would they have gone?

Thus it is possible that the Szekelys were in fact related to the arriving
Finnugor elements, but they do not have to be. The Khabar, Pecheneg, Cuman,
Jasz populations assimilated into the Hungarians very fast. It is possible
therefore that the Szekelys were there before the Hungarians and they were
linguistically assimilated into the Hungarians later.

Just some food for thought and to get away from the gitt egylet mentality
of who is chewing what.

Regards,Jeliko

Hello,

Are any of the Akos Nagy family active in this group ?

Amy Forsyth

Jeliko wrote:

"Just some food for thought and to get away from the gitt egylet mentality
of who is chewing what."

For which I thank you.

Gabor D. Farkas

Hello. Let me introduce myself. Dr. K-B or Colonel K-B.
 This theory about the Secres (Szikelysig) seems interesting and challenging.
 I have been stationed in Saudi Arabia before the PGW,
 then commanded a hospital unit in the war.
Arabs were friendly, called me magyar. The public transportation
in King Kalid Military City was in the hand of an Arab family
called MAGHAROB. I have a few picture to shear with you.
However my point of argument is that their knowledge about us did not reach the
early 9th century or more.

My military education in the US made me believe, the Secres origin was
unquestionably dated back to the Empire of Attilla the Hun.The Secres were a
military organization of AttillaUs defensive Force with mission to
delay the invaders at the Carpathian mountains
giving ample time for the main tribe for mobilization.
Their special ornaments on their  pants were their military unit ID and ranks.
 The Magyars found them in spot centuries later.
 In the geographical areas of former Kun or Avar settlements
 you still would be able to identify words of the original language.
As far as I know there is not a single word which would distinguish
 the Secres from the Magyars. I just recently studied the legend of
 prince Csaba.
 I found it fascinating.
Correct me if I am wrong, the fin-ugor origin of the Huns and Magyars
is a very old fashioned avid theory.

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>        Mr. Szaszvari seems to be a bit dense.

If you knew how stupid you look in the company I keep after a comment
like this, you'd die of embarrassment. It betrays the weakness of your
case. You can only be pitied for such gutter level attempts to discredit
the exposure of your wrongdoings. Your gratuitous personal attacks are
not untypical, though.....

>(I feel perfectly justified

When do you not feel *perfectly justified*???

>in saying this after *my* "intellectual dishonesty"

Not *intellectual* (more Balogh pomposity) but simply downright
fraudulence and insincerity (any suspicion that you might have had
any sincerity for anything apart from your own high opinion of yourself
has gone out of the window with your last few postings...)

>and other labels of similar ilk.) He has difficulty understanding simple
>concepts like: somebody doesn't exist. Also, he seems to be deficient in
>the sense of humor department and therefore he doesn't seem to appreciate
>sarcasm and irony.

This has to be the saddest thing about you: totally wrapped up in your
own ego you don't see that this whole thing has been staged to take your
ridiculous ego for a ride and that the ironic sarcasm aimed at that puffed
up absurdity has been swallowed hook, line and sinker. HEEEE-AAAWWWW ;-)

>So, I will be entirely straight in my presentation of
>facts. Or at least I will try.

Dont bother...I've flushed most of the repetitous verbal diarrhoea down
the toilet (where it belongs.)

>.......(a) George Szaszvari is very fond of Cecilia and takes this as a
>personal insult;

This is VERY INSULTING to both Cecilia and myself. You've got a bloody
nerve! Why do you keep selecting Cecilia when I mentioned Sam Stowe and
the other *unfortunates* on the list (as well as Cecilia) all being
consistently reminded of their deficiency by you. Nobody else needs to
do this, so, pray, why do you? Only someone who feels inferior does
that kind of thing. The slimey snake is desperate, but fortunately far
too transparent to be taken in by most people (only other puffed up egos
on and their feeble-minded sycophants get on. They feed off each other.)

>(b) it turns out that George himself doesn't know enough Hungarian and
>therefore considers it an attack on all those who can't speak Hungarian,

... the way you carry on about it all the time needed comment.

>most importantly himself.

Hahahahaha....(this is very funny indeed.)

>.................................. How can anyone possibly announce
>that we are overreacting who had never had the chance of reading of the
>offending pieces? So, Andras Kornai, Gabor Fencsik, Akos Rona-Tas, Gabor
>Farkas, Eva Balogh are all overreacting. I thought then and I think now that
>it was a mistake on her part to make such a pronouncement without knowing
>the facts.

Why drag all these people's names into it? Suddenly feeling lonely out
there? I didn't say anything at all about FORUM, NEMZET, SILICONVALLEY.COM,
or the political issues you allude to, at all, as you don't seem to want
to understand after being told in very plain language several times.

> (4) But perhaps George Szaszvari also thinks, like Cecilia, that
>this is just overreaction on our part,....[snip]

Rubbish! None of this is connected to anything I posted. You obvbiously
feel trapped and are trying to switch the focus. Keep squirming as much
as you like...not only do you not fool anyone, it's also very funny.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PCDOS..Win..OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** ICPUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>>You're not getting off the hook that easily! You owe the unsubscriber
>>you insulted an apology. Only then "kvittek vagyunk".
>
>        said you. However, you can wait for that till doomsaday!

DOOMSDAY might be closer than you think. Just one final thing to say
(seperate your true conscioussness from the mischievous *little-I*
for one second): Egotism is the most fundamental evil in life, an
involutionary thing that promotes seperate identity. WAKE UP!

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PCDOS..Win..OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** ICPUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

In article >,  (Stowewrite)
says:
>
>In article >,  (George
>Szaszvari) writes:
>
>>Getting jealous, huh? Don't forget Sam Stowe and your reference to the
>>other *unfortunates* on the list....
>
>George, if your intent is to draw me into this warm, loving exchange of
>opinions, you must first inscribe a pentagram on the floor, stand in the
>middle of it and repeat my name three times, saying "I invoke thee" each
>time. Sheesh...some people have no sense of protocol.
>Sam Stowe

Is the pentagram inverted (black magic) or the white magic one? It's
important to know for inscribing the correct Hebrew characters in each
corner (as well as positioning myself in the correct direction, etc.)

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PCDOS..Win..OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** ICPUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

>>Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
>> >... it is becoming clear to me that East
>>>Europeans don't have a clue how to conduct a "debate" meaning a
"discussion
>>>of question by considering opposed arguments." The worst example of
"debate"
>>>in the bad sense of the word is FORUM, the Hungarian-language list. There
>>>debates are simply personal attacks. If we don't like someone's ideas,
let's
>>>attack him/her as a person.
      ^^^^^^^
>>
>>Right on!  As when someone named Eva Balogh called someone whom she never
>> met, but whose idea she disagreed with, a senile old man  ;-).

>        Sure thing. And I repeated it a few days ago.

And then she attacks again, hurling the ultimate insult ;-(

>At 01:10 AM 5/6/96 -0400,  Ferenc Novak, who is a "great friend of mine",
wrote

Please, Eva, what did I do to deserve that?

Ferenc

At 08:20 AM 5/14/96 -0400, Sam Stowe, commenting on the Szaszvari-Balogh,
dustup, wrote:

>George, if your intent is to draw me into this warm, loving exchange of
>opinions, ....

The whole thing is turning into something the cops around here call, "a
domestic situation".

I'm beginning to understand why you like reading this list, Sam.  You get to
see our best side.  But there is nothing wrong with passion, Hungarian
style.  Enjoy!

Joe Szalai

At 01:45 PM 5/14/96 -0400, Janos Zsargo, wrote:

>No need for apologize. I don't think you were ever able to resist. C'est la
>vive. Some poeple are nazi, others are simple 'felnotas' and there are some
>'bunko',too. :-))

You're never going to let me forget calling you "bunko", are you?  After
calling me "felnotas" and suggesting that I should be called "comrade",
you're damn lucky I didn't call you "szo:ro:s bunko"!

And you don't think that I was ever able to resist, eh?  Well, you wouldn't
know that from personal experience now, would you?

Joe Szalai

At 03:32 PM 5/14/96 -0400, Andy Kozma, wrote:

>Just a fast question:what are you puffing on Joe?

At my age, ... anything I want.

Joe Szalai

At 04:36 PM 5/13/96 -0400, Darren Purcell, wrote:

>I may spoken to strongly, but this is one I stand behind, no matter what
>space the forum is in, cyberspace, the lecture hall, or public space.

Go, Darren, go!  Once you've seen the ugly side of homophobia you know how
stupid and hurtful it is.  Never again!

Joe Szalai

At 07:41 AM 5/14/96 GMT, Laszlo May, who also goes by the name of Dr. AIDS,
unwittingly demonstrated the need for gay rights legislation, by his
unintelligible prose.  With just one post he can convince more people that
gay rights laws are needed, then I could do by writing ten reasoned and
rational posts.  Enough about this man.

If the readers of this list are interested in making Hungary the third
nation in the world to have a gay right law, then they should lobby, write
and talk to anyone who has any political influence in Hungary.  For a
change, Hungary could show other European nations that it can lead in the
area of human rights.  I mean, sooner or later, all modern nations will have
such a human rights law.  Why should Hungary follow other nations?  It could
lead and do it in style.  Sound impossible?  Well, who would have thought
that South Africa would be the first nation to protect its gay citizens.

The new law in Canada will mean that same sex marriages will be legal.  Same
sex spousal benifits are already in place at many large corporations and
institutions.  If a Canadian company wants to invest or set up business in
Hungary, it may have to ask the Hungarian government about its no
discrimination laws.  If Hungary seems to be lacking, then the company might
go somewhere else.  This has already happened in some US towns.  It seems
that some large companies want their employees to have full rights and will
not set up business in areas that are not progressive.

The choice is Hungary's alone.  Will it lead, or will it follow.  Those are
the only choices.  Getting the bronze medal for human rights is a goal worth
fighting for.

Joe Szalai

Janos Zsargo > wrote:

 Ez a hazam, de ha kell elkuldom fiaimat barhova
>>Magyarorszagra, Del-Afrikaba stb...

Excellent choice, South Africa, I mean!  Shows very well, the research and
consequently acquired knowledge on this subject!

>>Ne feljetek tolem pipikeim!!! I AM A SPIRIT, I HELP TO MAKE THE LAW!!!
>>I am hungry!!! Come to me! Miert feltek kedveskeim? Ugyis elvisz a kaszas,
>>elobb, elobb hozzam!!! Mind, mind ide!!!
>>
>>I LOVE YOU ALL!!!
>>
>>Dr. Doktor Aids
>
>I think you need a doctor. And I am not joking now.
Hmm...Hmmm... Let's put it this way Dr. Doktor Aids.  I would usually
charge in excess of say $100.00/hour for my services.  In this instance, I
would consider it an obligation towards the betterment of humankind, to
donate my services au gratis.  Please, feel free to arrange an appointment
with my secretary.  I will ensure,that adequate timeslot is cleared for
your visit.  Until then,

Aniko Dunford

>J.Zsargo

In article >, Andy Kozma
> says:
>
>In last week's Toronto Star,there was an article about Raul Wallenberg,the
>Swedish diplomat whose help to Hungarian Jews saved thousands of life's myne
>included.
>According to this article Mr.Wallenberg was a US.spy,and this was the reason
>the soviets tooke him away.
>His where abouts where unknown so was his life or death.
>I would appreciate if anyone could comment on this.
>Thank you:Andy Kozma.

Wallenberg was a humanitarian, a decent person who used his position in
the best way possible. AFAIK, he wasn't a spy. After all, most of his time
and energy towards the end of the war was spent saving Jews. Of course he
must have had diplomatic contacts with all sides and in those confused
turbulent times any trumped up charge for any ridiculous reason was easily
used to get rid of people. I saw a couple of investigative documentaries
on British TV a few years ago and there were some long-term prisoners of
the Soviets released who claimed to have seen Wallenberg upto the 1970s.
At least one of these claimed Wallenberg died (privations/heart attack?)
in a Soviet prison and was quietly buried and forgotten about.

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 * Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PC..PCDOS..Win..OS/2 ** The ARM Club ** ICPUG *
               Interested in chess books? Ask for my list

Janos Zsargo > wrote:
>
>No need for apologize. I don't think you were ever able to resist. C'est la
>vive. Some poeple are nazi, others are simple 'felnotas' and there are some
>'bunko',too. :-))
>
>J.Zsargo

Dear Dr. Doktor Aids:

Clarification of a few points, that might best serve your upcoming visit:

a) the word 'Vive' actually does not fit well above, if at all.  I felt
   that pointing it out now, will save us precious time to address the
   real issues you are anxious about.

b) It would help me a great deal, prior to your actual arrival for your
   appointment, if you could pinpoint precisely which of the above
   outlined categories you see yourself fitting the best.

That about covers its.  Looking forward to your visit dr.

Aniko Dunford.
Oh yes. I do sincerely apologize, that my secretary was unable to
accommodate your requested visit, twenty minutes following your call.

On  Fri May 10 17:22:57 EDT 1996 Eva Balogh wrote in HUNGARY #664:

> The situation on the Forum is quite unbearable.
>
>        And this is just the description of how the message is delivered.
>But then there is the message itself. It is practically impossible to have
>an intelligent discussion because it really doesn't matter where we start,
>we end up at the question of Hungarian Jewry and their role in Hungary and
>their attitude toward the "nation." The people who usually instigate that
>kind of discussion steadfastly maintain that they are not antisemitic at
>all. Yet, one of this non-anti-semites claimed that in the middle ages and
>later, Jews actually killed Christians and drank their blood! All this
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>garbage is couched in pseudo-scientific language and a written demeanor
>which seems to attract followers: mostly from Hungary. Nowadays from every
>nook and crany there is a new antisemite who creeps onto the list and these,
>mostly fairly young, people are convinced that our pseudo-historian/s is/are
>the supreme authority on all matters relating to history. As opposed, of
>course, to this ignorant so-called historian (that's me!) who usually have
>no idea what she is talking about. A real ignoramus! I find all this quite,
>quite dangerous.

As a fairly long-time reader of FORUM, I am stunned to see the above
statement.
Many of us know that Eva has taken a lot of abuse there, and not entirely
undeservedly.
She has a tendency to use her historian's credentials as a club to beat
others over
the head when they dare to question some of her opinions.  And she is not shy
to voice opinions on any and all subjects, some of which fall way too far
from her expertise.
I have disagreed with some of her political opinions myself, but never
questioned her credentials as a historian.

She elicits the most acrimonious debates with her provocatively contrarian
style,
seemingly taking pleasure in attacking anything resembling a national icon,
sacred
cow, or treasured national tradition.  She finds it embarrassing to concede a
point in a  hardly fought debate, and is apt to call her opponents
anti-semitic to shut them up.  Recently she succeeded in provoking one of the
more sanguine members of FORUM to viciously and irrationally attack her as a
"pathological liar".

I think Eva will attest to the fact that no one on FORUM joined her attacker;
actually,
many -- myself included -- came to her defense.  Some tried to do so in a
civilized tone,
some in the same irrational and shrill language as the attacker.

Now, as I read the above quote I wonder if some of us were not too hasty in
our defense
of Eva.  Because what she is saying is simply not true!  On the off chance
that I missed
the statement she is referring to, I would like to ask her to name the source
of those
statements and provide the original as well as an English translation.
 Somehow I am
extremely doubtful she can do it.

Regards,

Ferenc

Douglas Rose asked about unusual places to visit around Debrecen or any
special events that his class might be interested in.  A couple of things
come to mind.
        There is a great, little visited museum in Hajduboszormeny just
north of Debrecen, which chronicles the history of the hadju region in
Eastern Hungary and the various Hajdu towns until the present day.  Es-
pecially neat stuff from the 16th-17th centuries, as well, oddly enough,
from the Commie period.  Then there is the open-air museum at Sosto out-
side of Nyiregyhaza, with peasant dwellings from all over Hungary.  I pre-
sume that Doug knows about the great Refrom church in Nyirbator, similar in
structure and interior decoration to King's College, Cambridge, with a
separate 17th century wooden belltower with the original bells!
        Finally, there is the famous Bridge Fair at Hortobagy, about 30
minutes west of Debrecen by car, on August 20. Lots of craftspeople and
demonstrations of puszta horsemanship and the like.  There is also a very
interesting peasant museum there, as well.
        Oh, one last thing--inthe erdos puszta to the east of Debrecen
there is a great arboretum and a "tajhaz" displaying artifacts from the
local peasant economy of the last century.  In the same area are Arpad
period ruins, as well as the remains of defensive walls built by the
Sarmatians at the behest of the Romans in the first centuries of our era.
There are also several observation towers with really great vistas of the
forest.
        That should keep Doug and his students occupied for a while.

Udv., B
Be'la