Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 729
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-07-16
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Taking into account the objections (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
2 Languages, dialects (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Galuska, Nokedli, etc. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Languages, dialects (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Once again about Galuska & Nokedli (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Romanian/Moldavian (was Re: Galuska and Nokedli) (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Taking into account the objections (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Languages, dialects (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: The list is growing (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: The list is growing. (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Faculty Club Etiguette (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
26 Vysehrad & Visegrad (was: galuska & nokedli) (mind)  111 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
28 Trip To Budapest (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: The list is growing. (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
31 Here is my story (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
32 And nudli! / Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
33 a new Hungarian-related thread (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Faculty Club Etiguette (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: The list is growing. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
37 Faculty Club Etiquette (mind)  98 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Taking into account the objections (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

ms balogh:

>        Elizabeth Fischer didn't appreciate my note, defending her language
>skills. Apparently, it was undeserved.

the context in which you "defended my language skills" was definitely
questionable.

as i said, not being able to express myself as well as i am able is
frustrating at best. for me.


>        As for finding her "out" and my failings as a person, I am not sure
>what she means. She advertized her homepage in several of her articles, and
>eventually I decided to look it up. I thought that people who make webpages
>for themselves do it because they want other people to know about them.

i prefer to post genderless. it does not mean that someone cannot figure me
out with a bit of research. you, however, insisted on ascribing me my full
name.

myself, i would respect a chosen preference, in this case initials.

and as far as the ubiquitous homepage... it is not a homepage, nor is it
something i did for myself. in fact, it is a collaborative work. and no, i
am particularly into discussing its merits... or lacks thereof, for that
matter.

secondly, i mean no "advertisement". it is simply in my sig. sometimes i
forget to turn off my sig. which is obviously something i must not forget
since what i do seems to so bother some people. here, that is. i wonder
why.


mr. stowe:
i have no idea where you get your information. but if you get a thrill out
of imaging me with mustard, hell go ahead. i suppose that means that i am
to imagine you as a cocktail weenie. kinda limp and tasteless.

and that mon cher, ain't no galuska.

regards
ef

   <sig turned off>
+ - Languages, dialects (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United States]
(...)
> The use of the Cyrillic alphabet to write Romanian was not introduced
> for the first time by the Soviet authorities with their "Moldavian SSR"
> but grew naturally out of the fact that the Romanians were Orthodox
(...)
> I don't know whether the Romanians who want to will succeed in convincing
> the Moldovans that they are "really" Romanians, but it could be interesting.
> After all, Czechs never convinced Slovaks that they were "Czechoslovaks,"
> did they?

It appears to me that Hugh's posting, though factually quite accurate,
nevertheless reflects a certain amount of confusion as to what constitutes a
separate language or dialect. Since the matter is of great importance in the
region where ethnicity, linguistic, and cultural identities form a rather
explosive mix, let me try to briefly explain where Linguistics with a capital
L stands on this matter. In modern linguistics ("modern" starts with Ferdinand
de Saussure) both dialects and languages are defined by their spoken, as
opposed to written, forms.

Therefore, Mandarin Chinese is the same language quite independent of whether
we use Han characters, Pin Yin, or some other transliteration system, and
"Moldavian" is one and the same language whether we write it using a Cyrillic-
or a Latin-based system. A more remarkable example is that of Serbian and
Croatian, which from an objective standpoint only show dialect differences
(and rather minimal dialect differences at that) but are often considered two
languages (by nationalists, not by linguists) chiefly on the basis of the
Cyrillic/Latin split between the two.

It is true that linguistics doesn't have an entirely satisfactory set of
criteria to distinguish between languages and dialects (this is why Morris
Halle once quipped that "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy",
which works only too well for the Serbo-Croatian case), but for the majority
of the cases the following criteria work remarkably well.

1. Speakers of different languages have a hard time understanding one another.
For etymologically closely related languages they might be able to carry
out simple conversations about everyday topics, but only with great effort.
In contrast, speakers of different dialects of the same language can talk
fluently about any subject, with minimal effort (overcoming the irritation
that the other guy talks funny).

2. Speakers of different languages have a hard time identifying the education
level and in general the socio-economic status of the other person, while
speakers of different dialects of the same language have no problem with this.

3. Speakers of the same language can often "slip into" another dialect after
minimal exposure, a few weeks or even just a few days  in the other dialect
area. Many people are incapable of this, but there is a minority, say 5-10%,
who can do this with remarkable ease. In contrast, nobody can pass themselves
off as a native with only a few days of exposure to a new language.

With these criteria in mind, Czech and Slovak are indeed different languages,
while the Romanian spoken in Romania and the "Moldavian" spoken in Moldavia
are dialects of one and the same language. Note that by these criteria the
Spanish spoken in South America and Castilian are one language, while
Castilian and Catalan are two. Note also that Mandarin and Cantonese are two
different languages (held together only by a common system of ideographic
writing and a distant etymological relationship), and indeed what we consider
"Chinese" contains dozens of separate languages.

There are often cases like the Romance continuum in Europe or the Bantu
continuum in Africa, where the language splits are from a linguistic
perspective are rather arbitrary, following more the vagaries of history,
armies and navies, than any structural reason. In fact, looking over the
linguistic and the political maps of the world, arbitrariness is the rule and
the French ideal of the linguistically homogeneous nation-state is the
exception.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.

I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
with the following:

Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs

Which of the two sentences is correct??

Thank you for your time.

Achille Albertelli

E-mail: 
+ - Re: Galuska, Nokedli, etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paolo Agostini > writes:

> But let me stress the fact it would be difficult indeed to consider
> galuska as a borrowing from Slovak halushka, since the Slovak
> trailing h- does  never turn into g- in Hungarian.  Compare for
> example the family name Hunyadi  < Slovak hunya 'a raw
> masculine clothing; durva haziszottesbol keszitett ferfiruhadarab ',
> where /h/ remains /h/.

If "hunya" indeed means "clothing made out of rough fabric", as in the
hairshirts worn by ascetics and penitents, then it is an excellent
example of a Slavic 'h' turning into a Hungarian 'g' -- something that
according to Paolo should never happen.  The Hungarian derivative is
"gunya", meaning the exact same thing as the Slovak word, cf. "talan epp
ebben rejlik a darocgunyasok nagy igazsaga".

The gnocchi->nokedli connection brings up other Italian derivations of
Hungarian words.  The Hungarian word for Italians is of Slavic origin
("olasz", etymologically related to "olah"), but there is a large number
of Italian-derived Hungarian words: palya, barka, rizs, tanyer, piac,
palacsinta, torta, salata.  Notice the large proportion of food-related
terms.  'Golyo' is also of Italian origin, apparently from 'coglione',
which means the Spanish 'cojones' of recent notoriety is also related
to a perfectly ordinary Hungarian word.  I am sure Paolo has many more
examples.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: Languages, dialects (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Thanks to Andra1s for taking the time to summarize the problem of "language"
vs. "dialect" in the attitudes of general modern Linguistics.  I appreciate
knowing that from the perspective of another discipline; and I was perhaps
less than careful enough in expressing what I was saying about Moldavian
and Romanian:  I don't (or didn't until Andra1s's posting) subscribe to
_any_ position on the status of "Moldavian" as a separate language, versus
standard literary Romanian as propagated in the schools of the Romanian
state.  And of course, the alphabet in itself does not a language make.
But the language alone does not always also a nation make--any number of
examples (not each one perfectly analogous, of course) could be raised
of nations that develop separate identities independent of shared languages
with other nations (as indeed the cases of Spain and the Latin-American
nations illustrate!).

So, the Czech/Slovak example was perhaps inexact as an analogy, but I
could imagine a future in which the Moldavians _did_ develop a separate
national identity -- though the other trend is perhaps more probable.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: Once again about Galuska & Nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Paolo Agostini >" > wrote:

>The origin of
>these meanings has to be sought in the Romanian word galusca =
>"toltott kaposzta", i.e. "stuffed cabbage", whence Moldavian geluska
>of same meaning.

I was really impressed by the linguistic arguments. However, from my
mother's cookbook :-), I know that  "stuffed cabbage" are  not
"galuste"  but what Romanians called "sarmale." "Galuste" are made out
of egg and farina.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Paolo Agostini >" > wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Zoli Fekete
> wrote:

>>  With the more important questions out of the way, on to a more serious
>> note: is the Hungarian Hunyad placename (that has a perhaps derivative
>> Romanian equivalent, which is where the famous Hunyadis came from) of
>> Slovak origin indeed?

>Yes, it is. Peruse the best toponomastic lexicon ever published in
>Hungary,


That's very interesting! I never doubted that most Romanian
place-names ended in "-oara" are probably derived from Hungarian
(Timisoara, Hunedoara). However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Romanian/Moldavian (was Re: Galuska and Nokedli) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew > wrote:

>Gabor Farkas rightly comments that most Romanians would probably deny
>the existence of a "Moldovan" language, but...

Actually, most linguists would deny the existence not only of a
"Moldovan" language, but also of a "Moldovan" dialect. Political
leaders might ignore the linguistic viewpoint, but let's remember that
not long ago, due to strong popular unrest,  president Snegur has
resubmitted to the Moldovan Parliament those Constitution paragraphs
dealing with the so-called "Moldovan language."

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Liviu Iordache wrote:
> That's very interesting! I never doubted that most Romanian
> place-names ended in "-oara" are probably derived from Hungarian
> (Timisoara, Hunedoara). However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
> indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
> names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
> interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
> but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

 While I'm definitely not a linguist, maybe I can take a shot at this:
your assumption of '-oara' derived from the hungarian suffix '-va1r'
(fort) seems a likely one. Timisoara = Temesvar (ie. port of Temes), and
(Vajda-)Hunyad(-Var) is Hunedoara. Now many root parts of Hungarian
placenames are from Slav origins on the one hand (can be the case for
Temes as well); and some such had a tendency to show up with different
variations at distant locations of the country, such as the case (which
particular one I was unaware of) with Hunyad. So it may well be that Huned
is not direct Slovak derivative, but a copycat name from the Hunyad(s)
from the Slovak regions of the old Hungary.
 Of course to complicate the picture there were many Slav languages in
contact with the Hungarians, not just Slovak (although some list
participants of old had the tendency of retrospectively Slovakizing
everything remotely Slav ;-(). So when someone mentioned the
transformation of the Slovak '-hrad' to '-grad' in Hungarian names, that
may not have been the source - eg. Belgrad came from the southern Slav
Beograd, and that form may have been carried over to other names up north
too...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Taking into account the objections (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae0f9332b871@[204.191.170.116]>, E Fischer
> writes:

>mr. stowe:
>i have no idea where you get your information. but if you get a thrill
out
>of imaging me with mustard, hell go ahead. i suppose that means that i am
>to imagine you as a cocktail weenie. kinda limp and tasteless.
>
>and that mon cher, ain't no galuska.
>
>
Elizabeth:
You humor yourself. Always a deadly failing with performance art, where
the tendency is for pretension to preceed -- and in many cases totally
pre-empt -- professionalism. Your verbose web page simply re-inforces my
observation. If I might offer at least one suggestion it would be that
your art would be better served by a closer concentration on how your
feelings of being an outsider as a child because of language difficulties
have marked your own critical stance within your adopted society as an
adult. What you have now is no better than preening stream of
consciousness written to ad nauseum lengths. It's not very interesting and
it's not artistic at all. And please start using conventional English
capitalization. Your refusal to capitalize isn't liberating in an
aesthetic sense. It's a hackneyed conceit. I'll show you some respect as
an artist when you stop being lazy and self-indulgent. If you'd bear down
and strip what is not essential from your art, people might actually be
able to see that you have some talent.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: Languages, dialects (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai > wrote:

>With these criteria in mind, Czech and Slovak are indeed different languages,
>while the Romanian spoken in Romania and the "Moldavian" spoken in Moldavia
>are dialects of one and the same language.

Just a short comment to your brief, yet correct and thorough,
presentation of linguistic criteria used for discriminating among
different languages and dialects:

Romanian language (s.l.) has four dialects: North-Danubian (aka
Daco-Romanian, or Romanain s.s.),  Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian
and Aromanian.  Moldovian represents just one of the five sub-dialects
of North-Romanian.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: The list is growing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Non-standard views of history

Sam Stowe wrote:
>Flim-Flam Man and now a man who promotes extreme right-wing,
>conspiratorial views of 20th Century history!
Who the hell is Flim-Flam Man, Sam? It seems to me you
use a rather esoteric language here. May I be educated
a little bit more about your terminology?

>My money is on Nemenyi turning out to be their leader.
Leader of whom? And how much money? I would go for it.
In vacation time any extra pocket money is welcome!

As about the 20th century history, let us face it that
the revolutionary movements in Eastern Europe, esp. in
Russia in the beginning of the century, had some moral
bases. Just look at the level of oppression of the
medieval political system of Nicholas. It's too bad
that a violent force, that of Ulyanoff's, emerged as a
leading power of the revolution. But the social
movements (without the violence) were completely
justified.

My point is, that if anybody has a different view from
my views of the Russian Revolution, it still would not
make him automatically a conspirationist or a nazi.

How about that?

Take care,                   Sz. "probably whatever" Zoli

                                 . edu
                             USC, Columbia, South Carolina

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
And the hit man said: "Intolerance even toward thought,
opinion and word, and finally, intolerance in the opposite
direction, that is toward the self-styled conservatives, to
the political right -- these anti-democratic notions respond
to the actual development of the democratic society."
                                           (Herbert Marcuse)
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+ - Re: The list is growing. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>You should count your blessings, Sam.  Piss me off and I'll start quoting
>Andrea Dworkin.  I'm sure you'd get a kick out of her.
>
>Joe Szalai

You stay pissed off. I bet fire hydrants uproot themselves and run when
they see you approaching. Feel free to quote either Dworkin or the
abominable Catherine McKinnon. Tell you what, I'll even set you up for a
new Hungarian-related thread that you can pontificate on at will. Do you
think Dworkin's radical feminism has any place in Hungarian society and
culture or do you think it won't cross the Atlantic all that well?
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Burian)
writes:

>Honestly, if you could see what malignant lungs look like, you'd find a
>little urine in your pool water quite appetizing by comparison.
>
>Burian

I quit smoking seven years ago and it was one of the smartest things I
ever did. I could feel my lungs healing over the months after I quit. I
think one of the most horrible ways a human being can die is from lung
cancer (seen it first hand, too). Emphesyma (sp?), smoking's other little
legacy to the career puffer, may be even more tortuous. I assume Hungary
has some kind of health ministry. Does it try to convince Hungarians to
kick the habit?
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:08 PM 7/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>The *ultimate*
>test will be when you can go into a restaurant  in Hungary and ask for the
>no-smoking section.  Then you'll know the new world has arrived.
>
>Burian

        Maybe, maybe. Keep your fingers crossed! The draft for regulating
smoking in public places is ready and will get to the house most likely in
the fall. It is, by European standards, is a pretty tough one, but, of
course, the question is what the honorable members--most likely the majority
of whom are smokers--will do to it. Emasculate it most likely!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:13 PM 7/13/96 -0400, Burian wrote:
>Joe Szalai suggested the Hungarian government bypass the "no-smoking"
>section and go directly toward abolishing smoking.
>
>Wonderful idea, but I doubt it'd happen, for two reasons.  One, this would
>show that the government actually cared for the well-being of its
>citizens.  And since it obviously doesn't care for their economic
>well-being (i.e. the brazen corruption within), why should it care if they
>get cancer or not.

        I'm afraid I sent a few messages which actually echoed what other
people have already said, but I was away for three days and it took me a
little while to catch up with reading all of them.

        Mr. Burian, I fear, is correct: the Hungarian government, the
appropriate ministry, was dragging its feet with this piece of legislation
for years. And even today, it was not the ministry which prepared the bill,
but the task was given to a constitutional expert at the Budapest Law
School, who for a set fee undertook the job. Before 1990 all tobacco
companies belonged to the state and therefore it was not surprising that no
massive antismoking effort was undertaken. But there is also problem with
the total lack of awareness of the harmful effects of smoking. When well
known intellectuals announce that this bill "is the stupidest thing [a vilag
legnagyobb marhasaga] he has ever heared"; when in *168 ora,* a popular
weekly, photographs the authors of the articles with cigarettes in hand
adorn the pages; when an incredible number of doctors (including
*radiologists*) smoke, it is hard to expect a massive effort in this area.

        As for the brazen corruption within the government, I am afraid,
again, Mr. Burian is one hundred percent right. Moreover, the media is not
tenacious enough: they may bring up a glaring case of corruption but within
a few days, with a few inadequate answers from the government, they let
case, after case, die. And, I am afraid, public officials, just like in the
old days, don't feel accountable to the electorate. And the electorate still
doesn't feel strong enough, empowered enough, to demand accountability.

       The brazen corruption and the state of journalism in Hungary is a
matter which deserves closer scrutiny, especially now that the parliamentary
members' "outside" jobs, both in state and in private companies, are being
discussed as incompatible with their positions as members of parliament. The
way the members cling to their fat outside jobs is most disgusting, and then
they are surprised that the population has such a low opinion of them. But
more about that in another thread.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You might be interested to know that Poland has passed a "No Smoking"
ordinance nationwide to prohibit smoking in public buildings - a nice
first step.

Frank A. Aycock, Ph.D.
Assoc. Prof. of Communication
Appalachian State University

P.S.  Anybody want to take bets on which country in Central Europe
(excluding Russia and other former republics) will be the LAST to enact
such ordinances?  My money's on Bulgaria (although the American
University in Bulgaria is non-smoking completely)!
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:32 PM 7/13/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Paolo Agostini >
>"Az egyetlen olasz szuletesu aki a magyar nokedli szaggatasahoz ert..."
>[The only  native Italian who knows how to make (~ "cut")  Hungarian
galuska...]

        I wish I could say the same about myself. My attempts have been
total disasters.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>[galuskaszaggatas]
>         I wish I could say the same about myself. My attempts have been
> total disasters.
 But then, as I told my mother (upon my failure to follow up on her
insistence of my learning to do much good in forming those tricky little
pieces): if it tastes good, it doesn't really matter what shape it is,
does it ;-)!? I figured could just make one big chunk without all the fuss...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Gundel Restaurant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:07 PM 7/12/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:


>P.S.  Are 'Munkas' (trans. 'Worker') cigarettes still available in Hungary?
>And are they still dirt cheap?

        I don't think so but, by American or Canadian standards, cigarettes
are still relatively inexpensive. Perhaps as much as one-third of the
American price. The Hungarian government, which taxes everything to death,
put relatively low taxes on tobacco products. Western companies moved into
the East-European areas with great gusto: the tobacco companies were among
the first state companies which were bought up by western (American and
British) companies. I am sure that the passage of the bill will be very,
very difficult for at least two reasons: (1) the tobacco companies will do
their best to frustrate the effort, and (2) the Hungarian smokers are
numerous and are everywhere from parliament to the medical profession.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At the time of Hungarian arrival in central Europe, there wasn't really a
set of DISTINCT Slavic languages, such as Slovak for Vysehrad and Serbian
for Belgrad, from which Magyar would take and/or adapt place names.  But
it is still (to me) most likely that borrowing occurred from the nearest
local name instead of the borrowed name "spreading" around the country.

This would seem true of a partial name like hrad/grad, so I would assume
that two borrowings took place, from Vysehrad to Visegrad in that case,
and from Belegrad (or what ever is the original name) to the Magyar name,
and quite possibly without any transference of the H to G, since I
believe the South Slavs have long used grad not hrad.  (The West Slavs,
at least Cz and Sl, change the G to H again, to get Belehrad.)


Norma Rudinsky




On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Liviu Iordache wrote:
> > That's very interesting! I never doubted that most Romanian
> > place-names ended in "-oara" are probably derived from Hungarian
> > (Timisoara, Hunedoara). However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
> > indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
> > names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
> > interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
> > but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)
>
>  While I'm definitely not a linguist, maybe I can take a shot at this:
> your assumption of '-oara' derived from the hungarian suffix '-va1r'
> (fort) seems a likely one. Timisoara = Temesvar (ie. port of Temes), and
> (Vajda-)Hunyad(-Var) is Hunedoara. Now many root parts of Hungarian
> placenames are from Slav origins on the one hand (can be the case for
> Temes as well); and some such had a tendency to show up with different
> variations at distant locations of the country, such as the case (which
> particular one I was unaware of) with Hunyad. So it may well be that Huned
> is not direct Slovak derivative, but a copycat name from the Hunyad(s)
> from the Slovak regions of the old Hungary.
>  Of course to complicate the picture there were many Slav languages in
> contact with the Hungarians, not just Slovak (although some list
> participants of old had the tendency of retrospectively Slovakizing
> everything remotely Slav ;-(). So when someone mentioned the
> transformation of the Slovak '-hrad' to '-grad' in Hungarian names, that
i> may not have been the source - eg. Belgrad came from the southern Slav
> Beograd, and that form may have been carried over to other names up north
> too...
>
> - --
>  Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
> *SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
> *with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
> *excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>
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> =LLbE
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sajnos kavet nincs is grammatically incorrect - you don't need the t in
kave, as kave is the subject (if you like or complement) of the sentence.
-t is for direct objects only. It may be confusing if you try to
translate into or from your own language. If it has a structure similar to
English or German "We haven't got any coffee" then obviously coffee is
the object. Hungarian uses a different structure for showing possession,
even in situations that seem odd. If you go into a shop you'd ask "Van
kave?" (lit. is there coffee) rather than ask: Have you got any coffee?

Also often the singular is used whereas you (not being Hungarian) would
expect a plural. E.g. Van gyufa? = (lit.) Is there (a) match? = Have you
got any matches.

But that's enough waffle about Hungarian.

David MAtley
+ - Re: and about Hunyad / Re: Once again about Galuska & N (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Norma Rudinsky wrote:
> This would seem true of a partial name like hrad/grad, so I would assume
> that two borrowings took place, from Vysehrad to Visegrad in that case,

 I concur that you're most likely right. Come to think of it, 'gr' fits
in nicely with the Hungarian sound system while 'hr' doesn't, which may
explain the change (independently from the generic question posed by
someone on whether H -> G happens often).

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Faculty Club Etiguette (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:07 PM 7/12/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>At 04:42 PM 7/11/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>>        But I am returning to my original question. "If the evils of
>>capitalism are responsible for the outbreak of the Bolshevik Revolution, how
>>is it possible that the predicted proletarian revolution broke out only in
>>countries which lost the war.
>
>Proletarian revolutions broke out only in countries which lost the war?
>Really?  Was Lenin a worker?  Was Bela Kun a worker?  I would have thought
>that most workers in the first decades of this century could hardly read or
>write, let alone run a government.  Politicians and 'revolutionary leaders'
>acting on behalf of, or in the interest of, the working class, do not a
>proletarian revolution make.  Sorry to disillusion you.

        Here is a perfect example why it is almost impossible to have a
rational discussion with you. You refuse to answer the question on hand.
Instead, you change the subject and start talking about something else.

        A brief outline of my terms here "communism" = the Bolshevik or
Bolshevik-type revolution and aftermath; "proletarian revolution" = the same
thing, the future revolution Karl Marx was talking about. And don't change
the subject: it doesn't matter whether the proletarians led the revolution
or not--the revolution was faught in the name of the proletariat and in the
name of Karl Marx. After all, Karl Marx wasn't a proletarian either but at
least he believed in the leadership of the proletariat in the future
revolution. Lenin, if you studied Marxism-Leninism you ought to know, didn't
think that the proletariat was capable of leading such a revolution. As he
said, the workers' mentality is of the trade-unionist kind. The vanguard of
the proletariat is the party, and the party leadership came from the
intellectuals. In any case, don't get lost in semantics--we are talking
about the revolution which took place in October/November 1917--regardless
what you call it. If that revolution was the result of the excesses of
capitalism and capitalism was by then a European and American phenomenon why
didn't similar revolutions brake out in all European countries? This is my
question, and I am still waiting for an answer.

        As for sarcastic little notes like "Sorry to disillusion you"
doesn't lead the discussion anywhere. By now you ought to know that I am
fairly familiar with the history of communism. So, your information
concerning the intellectual leadership of the social democratic/communist
movement didn't come as a surprise to me.

>Until this week I
>didn't realize that I was in anyone's "company", that I had
>"comrads-in-arms", or that I belonged to a "group", "socialist" or
>otherwise.  But what the hell, eh?  Take away our individuality and our
>unique experiences and our voices will follow.

        You lumped several of us together without any trouble whatsoever,
right-wing blabber or whatever you called it. If your impression is that
George Antony, Andras Kornai, Gabor Farkas, Charlies Vamossy, myself, and
several others belong to a camp of rightwingers, I don't know why you are so
indignant that I lumped the three of you together. To me, you three sound
pretty much alike.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:51 AM 7/13/96 -0700, Nora Rudinsky wrote:

>How do Hungarians serve galuska in an "elegant" restaurant?  As a side
>dish in place of potatoes or rice?

        Yes.

>Is it ever served alone as a meatless
>starch dish (like macaroni and cheese)?

        Yes. "Tojasos nokedli," but not in elegant restaurants. You mix it
up with scrambled eggs. Very good, by the way.


>What do Hungarians call bryndza?  In Germany it's Liptauer cheese, from
>the Liptov region which commercialized it.

        Brindza in Hungarian means the same thing.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Vysehrad & Visegrad (was: galuska & nokedli) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Though I don't claim to know the transference rules of Hungarian (or
>Slovak), numerous changes from Slovak H to Hungarian G come to mind,
>eg. the town/castle Vysehrad or Visegrad (like galuska originally a Slavic
>word).  Do you mind explaining further?  The Hunyadi example was
>a surprise and interesting, but what does "raw clothing" mean?
>Anyway, proper names are more likely to be kept in the original than
>are household words that become fully
>domesticated (which appears to be true with galuska since it can
>form compound words and it seems more "elegant" than other names etc.)

In exchange I do not claim to know Slovak :-)) Therefore, I have to (forcedly!)
 refer to the words
of great Slavists who dealt --  at a much higher level -- with Slavic
 borrowings.

>Secondly, with such a common and obvious food as dumplings, which must
>have been made more or less everywhere, does it seem to you likely
>that a Polish name would spread through even northern/Upper Hungary
>from across a border soooner than a name used by a local population
>within the kingdom?

The first Slavic loan-words were borrowed in the Hungarian language
when the Magyars did not yet settle in Hungary. After the
_honfoglalas_ they borrowed many words from the neighbour Slavic
peoples as a consequence of the close contacts. In the course of
centuries many Slavic populations melt into the Hungarian people and
became magyarized; pending this process though, many words of their
original mother tongue became an organic part of the Hungarian
language (as a quick reference, see: Barczi, Geza: A magyar nyelv
eletrajza [Biography of the Hungarian language]. Budapest, 1975;
Barczi, G. - Benko, L. - Berrar, J.: A magyar nyelv tortenete
[History of the Hungarian Language]. Budapest, several editions).

The words of Slavic origin were not borrowed in one single instance
but they entered the Hungarian language little by little. There was
first the conversion to the Christian faith which was largely carried
out by priests who probably spoke different Slavic languages and/or
dialects. The borrowings continued during the Middle Age and after
the so-called "Mohacs Disaster" (mohacsi vesz) and AFAIK they lasted
at least until the early seventies.

As a consequence of this, it is often difficult to find out where and
when the Magyars borrowed a certain Slavic word. The first occurence
of a particular word cannot be considered as a clue, since it does
not exclude the possibility that the captioned word entered the
language at a much earlier date.

As a linguistic "rule of the thumb" though, /g/ may easily turn into
an /h/, while the contrary very seldom occurs. Moreover, taking into
due account the fact that the captioned word exists in many Slavic
languages other than Slovak and that in these languages the word
appears with a /g/ in the proper place, why should we try to force
a /g/ from /h/?

What you consider as a possible Slovakian borrowing is much rather a
loan-word originating from some other Slavic language, in its turn related
to Slovak by the common origin.

As far as the place-name Visegrad is concerned, it appears  in
linguistic monuments written anno 1002 as _Wsagrad_.  Compare also
Serbo-Croatian _Vishegrad_ (I transliterate henceforth the s with hachek
into a sh -- and the tvordy znak with  6), Polish _Wyszogrod_,
Ucrainian _Vishgorod_, Russian _Vishegorod6_.

The place-name originates from a common Slavic word, cp. Old Slavonic
_vyshegrad6_  and  _vyshgrad6_ 'magaslaton levo var a varos kozepen
vagy kozeleben', i.e. 'citadel, tower located on a higher place in the
middle of a city either near a city'.

If I haven't been clear, historical references and etymological data
as related to the afore mentioned place-name may be found in the
following works:

Csanki, Dezso: Magyarorszag torteneti foldrajza a Hunyadiak koraba,
Voll. I-V. Budapest, 1890-1913.
Melich, Janos: Szlav jovevenyszavaink. Budapest, 1903-1905.
Melich, Janos: A honfoglalaskori Magyarorszag. Budapest, 1925-1929.
Viragh, Rozsa: Magyar helysegnevek eredete. Szeged, 1931.
Kniezsa, Istvan: A magyar nyelv szlav jovevenyszavaik. Budapest,
1955 (1st ed.)
Kniezsa, Istvan: A magyar es a szlovak csaladnevek rendszere.
Budapest, 1965.
Kniezsa, Istvan: Adalekok a magyar-szlovak nyelvhatar tortenetehez.
Budapest, 1941.
Smilauer,  Vladimir: Prirucka slovanske toponomastiky. Handbuch der
slawischen Toponomastik. Praha, 1970. (the s of Smilauer has a hachek on it)
Smilauer, Vladimir: Vodopis stareho Slovenska. Praha-Bratislava,
1932.
Rospond, Stanislaw: Slownik etymologiczny nazw geograficznych Slaska
I-. Warszawa-Wroclaw, 1970-.
Vasmer, Max (editor): Russisches geographisches Namenbuch. Vol. I-.
Wiesbaden, 1964-.
Sabljar, Vinko: Miestopisni ricenik  Kraljevinah, Dalmacije,
Hervatske i Slavonije. Zagreb, 1866.

(but there are many more :-))


BTW, "raw clothing". I mentioned the meaning of the word "huna" in
Hungarian but my English translation was "raw" indeed, and I
apologize for it. Hunya= "darocbol vagy gyapjas birkaborrol keszult
felsoruha, pokroc" means approx. "overgarment, upper clothes or
coarse rug made with frieze or sheepskin". The Uj Magyar Tajszotar
reports the word hunya from several Hungarian dialects, e.g.
Palocvidek (where it means "homespun"), County of Nograd (="masculine
garment"), Otrokocs (="trousers made of sheepskin"), etc.

Well, I'm afraid my posting is a bit too long and dry: my apologies
and best regards to all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paolo Agostini >
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:04 PM 7/13/96 -0300, Paolo Agostini wrote:

>>When they want to speak in an "elegant" fashion, they use "paraj" instead of
>>"speno't" [i.e. spinach], "burgonya" instead of "krumpli" [i.e. potato] and
>>"galuska" instead of "nokedli" [i.e. "dumplings"].
>>
>>As a matter of fact, "spenot", "krumpli" and "nokedli" are loan-words from
>>German and they belong to common parlance. Nevertheless, compare Hung.
>>"nokedli" with Austrian-German "Nockel", German "Nudel", Engl. "noodles" as
>>well as  Spanish "noclos" (pr. ny-) and you'll realize that's all the same
>>Italian pasta, i.e. "gnocchi".

        Quite, and add to this "tengeri" instead of "kukorica."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Trip To Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi all,
We plan, with 2 of my friends to go in Budapest for a week in the beginnig
of August. Can anybody, tell me things that I HAVE TO SEE their. We will
interested in Art in the mornig and in having fun in the night.
Museum,Monument in the morning and Bars, Clubs in the night.

Thx
+ - Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:17 AM 7/13/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:

>. . . . The stuff that Rakosi did, was merely the last phase of
>what Vajk/Steven started doing.
>
>And in context of the interminable "liberal-bolsi" versus "nep-nemzeti"
>debate on FORUM,  I tried to point out the ironic circumstance that the
>"Kereszteny Nep Nemzeti" (Chrishtian Nationalist People Oriented) faction
>is now in the same side structuraly as Koppany and his party were then  --
>wishing to keep local traditions, while their enemies imposed a
>cosmopolitan order.  They lost, but in a way, they lost according to their
>own rules.  But St. Steven won, as is acknowledged according to the royal
>formula, "by the grace of God".  Unfortunately, he gained the power to
>suppress a great many items from the pagan heritage.

        I was afraid that this is what you meant! I find it incredible that
such half-baked ideas surface time and time again: "out there" as well as on
the HIX forums. If St. Stephen and his father Prince Geza didn't succeed in
introducing Christianity you and I wouldn't be discussing the pros and cons
of "Christian Nationalist Populist" versus "Cosmopolitan, Liberal, Urbanite"
differences. We wouldn't be around. Hungary wouldn't be around, Hungarians
wouldn't be around. The Hungarian nomads of the tenth century and their
western expeditions would be a footnote in history books. Even less time
would be spend on them than on the Huns! The Huns are gone and the
Hungarians would have followed their example.

        Prince Geza and his son St. Stephen were men of vision; men who
realized that the only road for survival was--to use a current
phrase--"European integration." And by the way, comparing St. Stephen, the
founder of the Kingdom of Hungary with Matyas Rakosi tasteless, in addition,
lacking any historical basis.

>Although in this case I don't know what was so mysterious.  A rego"s (bard)
>or a ta'ltos (shaman) had certain traditional knowledge that I, for one,
>would like to know more about -- it might help us see more clearly who we
>really are.

        Unfortunately, I don't remember the author's name but there was a
well known historian (maybe late 19th century) who was expert on such
things. In my first year of university in Budapest, I read several articles
and books by him. So, if you want to know more about shamanism--there is
plenty of information. And of course, if as a personal hobby you want to be
a shaman, that's fine with me, but somehow I don't think that the shamans'
knowledge would be terribly useful to us, at least not in practical terms,
at the moment.
+ - Re: The list is growing. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>In article >, "Peter A.
>Nemenyi" > writes:
>
>>Mr. Stowe wrote:
>>
>>>Flim-Flam Man and now a man who promotes extreme right-wing,
>>>conspiratorial views of 20th Century history! My money is on Nemenyi
>>>turning out to be their leader. He's the only one of them besides Benke,
>>>perhaps, who could find his rear end with both hands.
>>>Sam Stowe
>>
>>Whatever happened with your earlier opinion? :-)
>>
>>
>
>This is great! I sent that to you back, let's see, about last September or
>October, wasn't it?

        One of the peculiarities of some people--especially, I am afraid, of
those who are on the right of the political scale--that they find it
incomprehensible to understand a change of heart on any subject. They act as
if we, human beings, simply were dropped down, fully formed physically and
mentally, from the blue sky. And, of course, they are certain that they
themselves have never erred when it came to political opinions. These people
claim that they were always deadly enemies of Kadar's harsh or soft
dictatorship and their behavior in face of political pressure of any sort
was always inpeccable. Not one of them ever compromised and all of them
behaved honorably. They were always brave opponents of the former regime.
But, of course, we know this was not the case. We know that compromises were
made left and right by all who lived in Hungary and in the neighboring
countries, including those who today are the harshest critics of "existing
socialism."

        But to return to the "sin" of changing one's mind. According to
these people, if once, for ample, I said that Mr. Kovacs was more polite
than Mr. Kiss and, a few months later, I say that Mr. Kovacs's style is
insufferable--I must be a turncoat and a liar. But, just as Sam Stowe
explained, it is very much possible to have, with the passage of time, have
a different opinion of someone or some situation. Also something we call
"personal growth" doesn't seem to be part of these people's worldview. It
is, as we all know, perfectly possible to be a socialist at the age of
twenty and call "socialism" an unreachable utopia and a naive pipe dream at
the age of forty. Moreover, I can hold a certain view at the beginning of
one of our discussions and by the end of the discussion, after receiving
several letters illuminating different aspects of the question, be convinced
that my opinion of two days ago was only semi-correct, or outright wrong. A
good example of a discussion of open-minded people would be the recent
exchange between Hugh and Andras on Romanian versus Moldavian.

        In any case, Sam Stowe has the right to change his mind. We all do
and, unfortunately, we rarely admit that we were wrong.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Here is my story (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zamboni here. had good weekend. got new pet. new pet is frog. Zamboni like
frogs. frogs are green. green
is second favorite color. purple favorite color. frogs are slimy. slimy is
good. poop is slimy. like poop. name
frog stanley. introduce stanley to horatio. horatio is my cock. hello horatio.
hello stanley. they are my friends.
they talk to me. they talk telepathically. introduce stanley to henrietta.
henrietta my hand. henrietta and
horatio love each other. they always horny. they like stanley.

want to do three way with stanley. henrietta pick up stanley. rub him on
horatio. froggie style. feel good.
Zamboni like froggie style. horatio spit all over henrietta and stanley. me
stop now. go in house. go in
bathroom. open closet. get petroleum jelly. family size jar. mom uses all the
time. uses for her goats. their
names guido and gertrude. guido boy goat. not hung like goat. hung like mule.
big goat dick. mom use jelly
on it. open jelly. rub on stanley. slide stanley up butt. put up butt
backwards.

head stick out of butt. RIBIT RIBIT RIBIT. frog feel good up butt. don't want
warts on butt. take out of butt.
put back in cage. go find mom. mom smell like fish. taste like chicken. mom in
bedroom. guido sodomizing
mom. see big goat dick. goat dick in mom's butt. in out in out. mom screaming.
AAIIIIIEEEE! AAIIIIEEEE!
AAIIIIEEEE! guido screaming. BAAAAHHHH! BAAAAHHHH! BAAAAHHHH! Zamboni
frightened. go
outside now. walk to store. need condoms. always wear condoms. especially with
mom. doctor give her
creame.

tell her to put on blisters. mom never use. Zamboni don't want blisters.
already have warts on butthole from
stanley. get condoms. take to woman at counter. big woman. smelly woman. has
beautiful black nose hair.
tell her condoms not for me. she don't believe Zamboni. tell her they for
horatio. she ask who horatio is. i
show her. wave to her with horatio. she scream. AAIIIIEEEE! AAIIIIEEEE!
AAIIIIEEEE! Zamboni frightened
again. run run run. fast fast fast. go back home. hungry now. go to
refrigerator

find bologna. like bologna. get bread. make sandwich. sandwich bland. look for
salt. no salt here. need salt
for sandwich. where i get salt? Zamboni think. Zamboni know. remember goat pee
is salty. look for guido.
guido still with mom. lok for gertrude. find gertrude. wait for gertrude to
pee. wait wait wait. finally she pee.
soak sandwich in goat pee. take bite. much better. eat eat eat. yum yum yum. go
outside. see mail man. he
give me mail. look at mail. poor horatio. he never get mail. chase mailman.

ask him why horatio never get mail. he ask who horatio is. i show him. wave to
him with horatio. he don't
scream. he spray Zamboni with mace. now Zamboni scream. AAIIIIEEEE! AAIIIIEEEE!
AAIIIIEEEE! run run
run. fast fast fast. run home. get hose. spray face for long time. guess
Zamboni lucky. he postal worker.
could have shot Zamboni. don't like mailman now. mom probably still like
mailman. she like everybody. go
back in house. mom done with guido. mom is naked.

all she wear is cowboy hat. cowboy boots with spurs. wants to play game. game
called ranch hand and lost
cow. mom ranch hand. me cow. i say o.k. take of clothes. down on all fours. mom
get rope. make lasso.
she lasso Zamboni. hog tie me. says she need to brand me. put name on my butt
in hickeys. oh that mom.
she one kooky chick. me tired now. will write more later. bye bye now.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mom. that crazy chick. smell like fish. taste like chicken.
my respect to Kibo. may he watch over Zamboni and keep him safe.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - And nudli! / Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> >Is it ever served alone as a meatless
> >starch dish (like macaroni and cheese)?

 This reminds me that somehow in all the galuska vs. nokedli discussion
we've failed to mention their cousin: the nudli (a word of German origin I
guess, but incomparably better tasting than anything from there ;-)),
which I believe has a pasta with potato ingredient.  That is the best in
'makos nudli' form, ie. with ground poppyseed (and sugar).

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
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+ - a new Hungarian-related thread (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:51 AM 7/15/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>You stay pissed off. I bet fire hydrants uproot themselves and run when
>they see you approaching. Feel free to quote either Dworkin or the
>abominable Catherine McKinnon. Tell you what, I'll even set you up for a
>new Hungarian-related thread that you can pontificate on at will. Do you
>think Dworkin's radical feminism has any place in Hungarian society and
>culture or do you think it won't cross the Atlantic all that well?

I don't think this new thread will fly, Sam.  First, I can't pontificate.  I
just don't have the necessary skills - maybe you can teach me.  Second, this
newsgroup had a thread on 'Feminism in Hungary' during the winter.  I think
it just caused a lot of disagreement and, more than likely, no one changed
their mind.  On the other hand, it was interesting to see who took which
side of the debate.  Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Unfortunately, the thread didn't last very long.  Feminism in Hungary, or
most anywhere for that matter, is seen as 'women's issue',  an irritating
little side show that only takes up band width which could be used to
discuss more important issues.  And this won't change as long as feminism is
seen as, and labeled, 'single issue' or 'special interest'.  The possibility
that it's about *how* one half of the world lives with the other half is a
mote point for many.

Given the above, we'll have to wait a long time to find out if the radical
feminism of McKinnon or Dworkin has any place in Hungarian society and culture.

Joe Szalai

"I owe nothing to Women's Lib."
              Margaret Thatcher
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Italian Autodidact
> wrote:
>
>Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>
>I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
>with the following:
>
>Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
>
>Which of the two sentences is correct??
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>Achille Albertelli
>
>E-mail: 
>


My Hungarian comes from my parents, I didn't "study" the language. My instinct
says:

Sajnos, nincsen kavet.

If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.

Margarita

+ - Re: Faculty Club Etiguette (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:34 PM 7/15/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Here is a perfect example why it is almost impossible to have a
>rational discussion with you. You refuse to answer the question on hand.
>Instead, you change the subject and start talking about something else.
>
>        A brief outline of my terms here "communism" = the Bolshevik or
>Bolshevik-type revolution and aftermath; "proletarian revolution" = the same
>thing, the future revolution Karl Marx was talking about. And don't change
>the subject: it doesn't matter whether the proletarians led the revolution
>or not--the revolution was faught in the name of the proletariat and in the
>name of Karl Marx. After all, Karl Marx wasn't a proletarian either but at
>least he believed in the leadership of the proletariat in the future
>revolution. Lenin, if you studied Marxism-Leninism you ought to know, didn't
>think that the proletariat was capable of leading such a revolution. As he
>said, the workers' mentality is of the trade-unionist kind. The vanguard of
>the proletariat is the party, and the party leadership came from the
>intellectuals. In any case, don't get lost in semantics--we are talking
>about the revolution which took place in October/November 1917--regardless
>what you call it. If that revolution was the result of the excesses of
>capitalism and capitalism was by then a European and American phenomenon why
>didn't similar revolutions brake out in all European countries? This is my
>question, and I am still waiting for an answer.

I am not refusing to answer the question and I don't change the subject to
something else.  I just don't, uncritically, accept your definitions.  Why
should I?

My answer to your question is this.  Similar revolutions *did* break out in
most European countries.  Of course, our difficulty here is what you and I
mean by 'similar' and 'revolution'.  Most European countries did not have a
violent overthrow of their government.  However, most European countries
developed social programmes that were equal to, or better than, what the
Soviets accomplished.  The development of "The Welfare State" was Europe's
revolution.  Is it just a coincidence that the attack on the social
programmes in the West happened just as the Soviet system was collapsing?
An important part of the "aftermath" of the Bolshevik revolution was the
repression, dictatorship, and secrecy in the Soviet Union.  Unfortunately,
from my perspective, this is the only stuff that most people care to
remember.  But repression, dictatorship and secrecy are not revolutionary
concepts and certainly I don't think anyone would want the violent overthrow
of a government just so they could establish a violent government.

>        You lumped several of us together without any trouble whatsoever,
>right-wing blabber or whatever you called it. If your impression is that
>George Antony, Andras Kornai, Gabor Farkas, Charlies Vamossy, myself, and
>several others belong to a camp of rightwingers, I don't know why you are so
>indignant that I lumped the three of you together. To me, you three sound
>pretty much alike.

We're entitled to our impressions.  However, would you have been thrilled if
Peter A. Nemenyi willingly joined your "camp of rightwingers"?  And how
about Zoltan Szekely?  Would you be happy if I put him in your camp as Gabor
Farkas appeared to put him in my "group"?

By the way, the word I used was 'blather' not 'blabber'.  But I'm flexible!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The list is growing. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:34 PM 7/15/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>It is, as we all know, perfectly possible to be a socialist at the age of
>twenty and call "socialism" an unreachable utopia and a naive pipe dream at
>the age of forty.

And what do I have to look forward to by the time I reach sixty, being a
curmudgeon?

Joe Szalai
+ - Faculty Club Etiquette (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>After all, Karl Marx wasn't a proletarian either but at least he
>believed in the leadership of the proletariat in the future revo-
>lution.

He himself alone? In about 1846, both Marx and Engels joined a group
calling itself The Communist League which "sprang from what was known
as The League of the Just. The latter, in turn was an offshoot of the
Parisian Outlaws League, founded by German refugees in that city. After
a turbulent ten-year period, the League of Just found its 'center of
gravity' as Engels put it, in London where, he added, a new feature
came to the fore: 'from being German' the League became international.

In any event, at the Second Congress of the Communist League (the offi-
cial title of the Manifesto, in German, is Manifest der Kommunistichen
Partei. (History has translated "Partei" variously as "Party" or "Lea-
gue")
Marx and Engels were selected to write a party platform. Apparently both
encountered delays in achieving this result, and the two writers "caused
the Central Committee of the League to serve notice sharply that if the
manifesto was not ready by February 1, 1848, measures would be taken
against Marx and Engels. Results followed.

So Marx and Engels were given the task of writing a party platform for an
already existing international group. The Manifesto was not the work of
an inspired nobody by the name of Karl Marx (or Frederick Engels, for
that matter,) who suddenly sprang up from obscurity. Both were hired by
an already existing group that now felt its power was strong enaugh for them
to come out from the "smoke-filled" rooms and make their organization, and
its platform, known to the people of Europe.

But why was it so important for the Manifesto to be completed by the first
of February? Because the "spontaneous revolutions" that had already been
planned all over Europe could "spontaneously" erupt on schedule. In fact
these "spontaneously planned" revolutions started on March 1, 1848 in
Baden followed by others in Vienna on March 12, Parma, March 13, Pest
March 15, Venice, March 22, etc.

Sixty-four revolutions "spontaneously erupted" all over Russia during the year
as well.

So the Manifesto of the Communist Party was issued in London, England on Feb-
ruary 1 1848 as an explanation of the cause of the revolutions already planned.
Fortunately for the people of Europe, nearly all of these revolutions failed.

Because of these failures, the name of the manifesto was changed to the
Communist
Manifesto and the name of Karl Marx was added as its author. This occured in
1868, twenty years after its original publication. So was it the Communist Part
y
who made Marx and Engels to write the platform and ideas of the Party? Yes it
was! So we can say, ... " at least the Party believed in the leadership of the
proletariat in the future revolution." :-)

>Lenin, if you studied Marxism-Leninism you ought to know, didn't think that
>the proletariat was capable of leading such a revolution. As he said, the
>workers' mentality is of the trade-unionist kind. The vanguard of the prole-
>tariat is the party, and the party leadership came from the intellectuals.
>In any case, don't get lost in semantics--we are talking about the revolution
>which took place in October/November 1917--regardless what you call it.

Lenin had answered that question by writing: "Our power does not know liberty
or justice. It is entirely established on the destruction of the individual
will. We are the masters. Complete indifference to suffering is our duty. In
the fulfillment of our calling, the greatest cruelty is a merit. (Michael
Strudza ~ Betrayal by Rulers)

And: "Though a systematic terror, during which every breach of contract, every
treason, every lie will be lawful, we will find the way to abase humanity down
to the lowest level of existence. That is indispensible to the establishment of
our dominance".

Lenin also declared his philosophical kinship with Karl Marx when he
declared on
November 8, 1917, just after the Communist took over the Russian goverment: "Th
e
right of private property in land is forever abolished. All land owned by the
Church, private persons, by peasants, is taken away without compensation"
(Donzella
Cross Byle ~ Quest of a Hemisphere)

It is interesting that the peasants of Russia, the supposedly landless class
that
the Russian Communists were causing a revolution to assist, lost their land
as well!
And what did the proletariat received from the communists? :-)


>If that revolution was the result of the excesses of capitalism and capitalism
>was by then a European and American phenomenon why didn't similar revolutions
>brake out in all European countries? This is my question, and I am still
waiting
>for an answer.

How about 1919 ?  Or Spain maybe, a little latter? etc.

NPA.

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