wrote:

>I think some of the writers are a little harsh on poor Ms Egorov.  
>She obviously believes in the Mongolian connection. We all have 
>to do our thing !  Some people believe that the earth is flat and 
>some believe that they are Cleopatra or Ethnologists!
>Remember " akinek nem inge ne vegye magara "  - So smile and have
>a beer or two. 

>And there is a silver lining in this for those of us who live
> in Canada: If Ms Egorov is right, then  we are O.K. because
>someone is already making a case that the North American 
>Indigenous People originate from Asia and related to the Mongols.
>In that case, we could be in the front row when the land claims  are settled. 
 

>                                                Mark

It is because the Hungarians are descendants of this people of color
that they are so attractive.

It is no shame to be descendants of either Asian or African.

Well, I found a pretty interesting site I thought some of
you might be interested in.

It is called AsiaWest FRIENDS and is located at http://www.asia-west-friends.co
m/

Lots of Asian girls who seem to be genuinely interested in making friends with 
guys
in the West.

If you want to establish a relationship with an Asian girl in the Philippines, 
Hong Kong, Indonesia, etc, then I recommend you take a look.

Berry

 (Maria Egorov) wrote:

>ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3


>The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
>Turks in Istanbul
>look European.

>It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
>roots are Mongolic.

>From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

>"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
>they may be considered
>a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
>groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
>being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

>From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
>Emperor,950AD)

>"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
>particular princes...,They 
>have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
>family..."
> 

>From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

>"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

>From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

>"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
>with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
>Mongol invaders of Russia..."


>From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

>"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
>peculiar name of Turks,
>as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
>the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

>From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

>"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
>this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
>VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
>and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

>From "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

>"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
>Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
>his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
>MANNER OF WOLVES".

>From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

>"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
>type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
>basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
>relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
>(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

>From "Britanica" Hungarian.


>"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
>and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
>scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
>Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
>is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).


>From "1000 years of Hungary" By Emil Lengyel.


>"(Hungarian) Folklore speaks about NIMROD the giant,who had two sons,
>HUNOR and HAGAR.The former was the ancestor of the HUNS,and MAGOR was the 
>ancestor of the MAGYARS."

>"The experience the Magyars left with the Western world was so traumatic 
>that even generations later people form the West saw the Hungarians as 
>apocalyptic monsters. Bishop Otto of Freysing spoke of the exterior of 
>the Hungarians as ‘ferocious' at the time of the Crusades :(Their eyes 
>are sunken,their stature is short,their behavior wild,their language 
>barbarous,so that one can either accuse fate or marvel at divine patience 
>for having permitted these monsters the possession of an enchanting 
>land)".


>From "History of Hungary" By Denis Sinor


>"Though, geographically speaking, of European origin, the Hungarians who 
>settled in the Danube valley were,spiritually and materially, Asiatics, 
>and belonged to the great Central Euroasiatic cultural family whose 
>members lived dispersed form the Danube to China, from Persia and India 
>to the Arctic. The Hungarian bows and arrows...were of exactly the same 
>type as those used in Central Asia. As nomadic peoples generally do, the 
>Hungarians disliked towns,and even houses,to which they preferred tents. 
>According to Otto von Freisingen, as late as the middle of the twelfth 
>century, summer and autumn were still spent under tents".

>"It is, however quite certain that the Mongoloid type was well 
>represented among them(Hungarians), and that they were, on the whole, of 
>rather short stature, with short legs, bowed through continuous riding".


>There are many more credible sources like these.


The late classic movie actor, Bela Lugosi, was Hungarian and he was
far from short.  In fact, he was tall and in his younger days very
handsome.

His fall back it was said that he never learned to speak English well
enough and the American movie industry limited him to only horror
roles since "Dracula".

Also, it is because the Hungarians are descendants of a people of
color that they are quite attractive.

It is no shame to be descendants from either Asian or African.

L. Cox

To: NEWS:SOC.CULTURE.MAGYAR                                              
                                                                         
                                                                         
I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

To: NEWS:SOC.CULTURE.MAGYAR                                              
                                                                      > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Newsgroup: soc.culture.magyar
> 
>      (Earliest articles...)
>      (Earlier articles...)
> 
>    * Re: Uralo-Altaic idioms list by Plamen Malinov - Gyorgy Kovacs
>      (6)
>    * Re: NPA -- the saga continues - 
>      (107)
>    * Re: Challenges to Ms Egorov - Gyorgy Kovacs (15)
>    * Re: A Hit Gyulekezete - Ivan Marinov (24)
>         o T. Kocsis (7)
>              + Ivan Marinov (25)
>              +  (7)
>                   + T. Kocsis (11)
>    * Re: Hungarian Nobel Prize Winners & Famous Hungarian Americans
>      -  (21)
>         o Istvan Szucs (23)
>              +  (9)
>                   + Istvan Szucs (16)
>    *  Recuperating Transylvania?
>         o Gyorgy Kovacs (16)
>         o g (29)
>         o g (27)
>         o Gyorgy Kovacs (22)
>              +  (16)
>    * Re: BOYCOTT COCA-COLA! - Ivan Marinov (28)
>         o Istvan Szucs (27)
>    * *** SZALON *** #1169 - "HIX SZALON" (270)
>    * *** Hungarian Lobby Digest *** V1 #193 - Hungarian Lobby (279)
>    * *** Hungarian American List Digest *** V3 #208 - Hungarian
>      American List (479)
>    * NEMZET -  (223)
>    * *** MOZAIK: OMRI Daily Digest - 29 July 1996 (62 sor) - HIX
>      MOZAIK (80)
>    * Re: TO MR. KEELER FROM MARIA - Gyorgy Kovacs (5)
>    * ARE THE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? - Maria Egorov (120)
>         o Jari Partanen (193)
>         o Lawanda Cox (137)
>         o Cours 6412 (88)
>    * NEMZET - OLIMPIA -  (8)
>    * Mongolian connection -  (14)
>         o Lawanda Cox (22)
>         o George Szaszvari (16)
>    * olimpiai paradoxon uszasban - iFodor (19)
>    * Small furnished Budapest apartment to let - Livia Polanyi (9)
>    * *** GURU *** #550 - "HIX GURU" (1055)
>    * *** TIPP *** #2192 - "HIX TIPP" (819)
>    * *** JATEK *** #108 - "HIX JATEK" (113)
>    * *** SPORT *** #215 - "HIX SPORT" (421)
>    * *** FORUM *** #2066 - "HIX FORUM" (563)
>    * *** MOKA *** #1134 - "HIX MOKA" (1005)
>    * *** HUNGARY *** #743 - "HIX HUNGARY" (2365)
>    * Re: MARIA EGOROV IS A RACIST LIAR - Gyorgy Kovacs (9)
>         o Maria Egorov (2)
>    * *** RANDI *** #545 - "HIX RANDI" (219)
>    * *** NARANCS *** #75 - "HIX NARANCS" (1297)
>    * *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Jul/30/96 - Hungarian American List
>      (220)
>    * *** OMRI Analytical Brief *** Jul/30/96 *** Czech Right-Wing
>      Extremists Cause New Scandal - Hungarian American List (139)
>    * Re: ARE THE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? - Jarmo Ryyti (136)
>    * Re: SHOULD WE LET EX-SOVIETS INTO THE WEST? (was: Re: visas,
>      sovoks and everything (was: Some statistics about Russia from
>      WWW) - Miecz (29)
>         o Mark W. Kaliczynski (24)
>         o heringer (41)
>    * HIT gyulekezet -  (171)
>    * HIT Gyulekezet vezetojenek jeruzsalemi konferenciaja -
>       (177)
>    * HIT. Bocsanat az ekezetek miatt! -
>       (288)
>    * Re: HIT - Ivan Marinov (76)
>         o  (6)
>         o Istvan Szucs (20)
>              + Ivan Marinov (31)
>                   + Istvan Szucs (26)
>                        + Ivan Marinov (30)
>    * *** Hungarian Lobby Digest *** V1 #194 - Hungarian Lobby (250)
>    * *** Hungarian American List Digest *** V3 #209 - Hungarian
>      American List (852)
>    * *** MOZAIK: OMRI Daily Digest - 30 July 1996 (31 sor) - HIX
>      MOZAIK (49)
>    * *** UK *** #31 - "HIX UK" (50)
>    * *** TIPP *** #2193 - "HIX TIPP" (702)
>    * *** SPORT *** #216 - "HIX SPORT" (428)
>    * *** GURU *** #551 - "HIX GURU" (735)
>    * *** JATEK *** #109 - "HIX JATEK" (101)
>    * *** HUNGARY *** #744 - "HIX HUNGARY" (3333)
>    * *** FORUM *** #2067 - "HIX FORUM" (935)
>    * *** MOKA *** #1135 - "HIX MOKA" (1069)
>    * Elbow-throwing, the newest Olympic event is proudly presented
>      by... - Kinga Vereczkey, MD. (70)
>    * *** RANDI *** #546 - "HIX RANDI" (116)
>    * Hungarian/Sumerian origins - Peter k Chong (87)
>    * Another example of Slovak intolerance -
>       (55)
>    * telephone calls -  (3)
>         o Istvan Szucs (15)
>    * Re: HIT - Ivan Marinov (36)
>    *  Tessék írni!
>         o heringer (34)
>         o T. Kocsis (22)
>    * *** VITA *** #553 - "HIX VITA" (324)
>    * *** SZALON *** #1170 - "HIX SZALON" (131)
>    * *** VITA *** #554 - "HIX VITA" (135)
>    * *** VoA Newswire *** Jul/31/96 *** NATO Enlargement I. -
>      Hungarian American List (180)
>    * *** VoA Newswire *** Jul/31/96 *** NATO Enlargement I. -
>      Hungarian American List (180)
>    * *** OMRI Daily Digest *** Jul/31/96 - Hungarian American List
>      (126)
>    * tipp-SZALLAST KERESEK CLEVLANDBEN - oneill marguerita a (6)
>    * Re: Tenkes - Gyorgy Kovacs (25)
>    * *** EDUPAGE *** #103 - "EDUPAGE" (209)
>    * *** Hungarian Lobby Digest *** V1 #195 - Hungarian Lobby (376)
>    * *** Hungarian American List Digest *** V3 #210 - Hungarian
>      American List (798)
>    * Re: ROMANIANS, VLACHS, ROMANS. - Maria Egorov (2)
>    * *** MOZAIK: OMRI Daily Digest - 31 July 1996 (31 sor) - HIX
>      MOZAIK (49)
>    * *** TIPP *** #2194 - "HIX TIPP" (739)
>    * *** GURU *** #552 - "HIX GURU" (1086)
>    * *** SPORT *** #217 - "HIX SPORT" (530)
>    * *** JATEK *** #110 - "HIX JATEK" (167)
>    * *** FORUM *** #2068 - "HIX FORUM" (560)
>    * *** HUNGARY *** #745 - "HIX HUNGARY" (2084)
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
   
                                                                         
I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

-- 
22

I have just received a letter from Budapest regarding a genealogy request
and unfortunately, I cannot read Hungarian. Could some kind person
please translate for me the following sentences:

	Kerelmere ertesitem, hogy Demjen Samuel/1866. Seres Barbara/ 
	az irattar nyilvantartasaban nem szerepel,ezert Vele kapcsolatban 
	tajekoztatast illetve felvilagositast adni nem all modomban.

	Mivel nagypapaja valoszinu az Osztrak-Magyar Monarchia 
	hadseregeben szolgalt, javaslom, hogy sziveskedjek a Becsi
	Hadileveltarhoz fordulni. /Cimuk: Kriegarchiv, 
	Wien VII.Stiftgasse 2/

Also,
	
	Mellekelten megkuldom az On reszere erkezett ertesitest. Kerem,
	hogy a leveltovabbitas kezelesi es postakoltsege cimen
	sziveskedjen egy 14 dollaros Money Ordert kuldeni a Hungarian
	Embassy nevere.

Thank you very much for any help you can provide.  Please answer by way
of email: 

Karen Foster
Port Coquitlam, BC

Hi,

My Balogh mentioned that Hungary was one of the 5 "great powers" ie.
one of the top 5 in Olympic gold medal counts.

Is there anywhere on the Internet where this information is proven?

Thanks

Balazs

Indeed, many non-jewish people came to US, many came as guests and are overstay
ing
their visas limitation,many people (women) came to work as babysitters, many
work in strip-joints, etc.
Some young people came from well-to-do/well connected families to study here an
d eventually to settle in America.
Israel for instance is experiencing an influx of non-jews who went there after
faking their nationality in Russian, Ukranian passports... all their lives
they were russians, ukranians and when it became convinient, instead of becomin
g
so called new russians, they turned out in Israel as "new jews".
But I want to make it clear that criminal elements among new commers have nothi
ng to do with their ethnicity, criminality is very international.
The collapse of Ex-Soviet Empire is still going on in the form of decay of very
 basic human values, the rise of crime, etc.
All this is being spilled over to Western Europe and to the United States.

Henry.
Henry

In article >,
 > wrote:
>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>
>>The Tenkes is a region of Transdanubia, the story is about a local guy, Ma'te
>>Eke who got in trouble with the Austrian (labanc) authorities, and started hi
s
>>resistance with his friends. As the movement grew he was named the Captain of
>>the Tenkes, A Tenkes Kapitanya. The role was played by Ferenc Zenthe, also an
>>excellent Hungarian actor. Other roles were played by Laszlo Ungvari, Ildiko
>>Pecsi, Marta Vajda, Mariann Krencsei.
>>A Rakoczi Hadnagya is a totally different story.
>
>Hm, I don't know then why I mixed this with "Rakoczi hadnagya", though I
>did recall Zenthe Ferenc and Pecsi Ildiko starring in the series.  I
>also seem to recall that it was filmed at Szigetvar, with its fort as
>the fort of Tenkes.
>
>Joe

Well, they made a movie based on "Rakoczi Hadnagya" also, and Zenthe played in 
it. So that might be the source of confusion. Unfortunately my recollection on 
this latter is not as reliable as on "A Tenkes Kapitanya". Maybe someone at 
home can help us out?
GK

How about this gem, folks?
----------------------------

Article 20521 of bit.listserv.slovak-l:
From:  (Igor GAZDIK)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: More paranoia from hungary
Date: 30 Jul 1996 17:34:12 GMT
Organization: -
Lines: 40
Message-ID: >
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup97-2-6.swipnet.se

#In article >,  says...

#>The double-cross I can somehow figure out, 

	the "cross" probably was not meant to be a cross.   it is
	identical with the symbol of "the tree of life".   as such it
	was known in the stone age already.   to this day, the "cross"
	alone is in the coat of arms of the city of zvolen, one of the
	most ancient settlements in all of europe.


#>the 3 famous tops of Tatra Mountains (situated on Slovak side of
#>Slovakia-Poland border). 

	the three mountains are the tatras, matra and the fatra(s).   
	the fatras (low and high) are situated in north-western slovakia.
	matra is a hilly slovak populated territory in what nowadays
	is northern hungary.


#They are not in Slovak coat of arms,
#>but in *Hungarian coat of arms*! What does it tell to us? ;)

[And now here comes the zinger: -- JP]

	there is hardly anything of historical value in hungary
	that is "hungarian", i.e. pertaining to the nomads that
	once invaded europe from the western outskirts of the takla
	makan desert (see the research carried out early in this
	century by sven hedin).   anything "hungarians" have was
	acquired by cultural and biological parasitism.

#>
#>Jorma Kyppo
#>Laukaa
#>Finland

#>
#>Hmmm.. what about Ural Mountains in Finnish coat of arms...?

	an interesting idea...
-------------------------------

And Slovaks are wondering why their reputation is so bad in the West ...

JP

In article >,  says...
>  Some people believe that the earth is flat and 
>some believe that they are Cleopatra or Ethnologists!

Yeah, right on the button.

>Remember " akinek nem inge ne vegye magara "  - So smile and have
>a beer or two. 

This has been most sensible comment so far on this thread...someone 
after my own heart. Cheers!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

> 
  
                                                                         
I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

Hi!

I've recently been talked to an acquaintance regarding the origin of the 
Hungarian people.  And from there we went through the usual ones about coming
from Siberia, the Ural mountains, Sumeria, etc..  He however mentioned some-
thing as well as a "theory" as crazy as it sounds about Hungarians originating
in Egypt!  Since I rather quickly dismissed this as a possibility and had never
even heard of it myself I tuned out rather fast.  Then when talking another fri
end
of my she told me that her father also had heard of this and was rather convinc
ed
of this.  Since I haven't really gotten a chance to talk to these people since,
 and
don't expect to for a while, I was wondering if anyone may have heard of this 
and if they have could they please explain how the heck this is possible?

Thanks,
Peter

PS.  According to that theory we're not Mongols Ms Egorov :D

Reanalize your statement Mr.

On 28 Jul 1996 08:23:52 GMT,  () wrote:

>What the hell are you talking about?  Where do you get the idea that I
>don't know Transylvania means Erdely in Hungarian?  And you obviously
>don't know what flame means on these news groups, not to mention you
>didn't get my point to George at all.  The rest was OK.

Sorry, opened my mouth before my eyes :)

Anyway, no-one has answered if Kedd 21 is still on... makes me shudder
when I think about it.

Balazs

Kedves Tippelok!
96 aug. 18-an, vasarnap este Clevlandben szeretnek tolteni egy ejszakat 
baratnommel, reggel utazunk tovabb a keleti partra. Van-e valakinek 
ismerose, akinel megszallhatnank?
Koszonettel
Juhasz Istvan

In article >,
Maria Egorov > attempted to write, disregarding previous 
pleas:
Wrong:
>Just the spelling bothers you?
>
Right:
Is it just the spelling that bothers you?

Answer:
No. You can add grammar and sense to the list.

Istvan Szucs wrote:
 
> A szazadok alatt tobb
> valtozas tortent a dogmaban...

Nem tortent.

> Ahogy akkor ugy most is lehet
> szukseg valtozasra.

Isten szavat nem kell megvaltoztatni, ennek semmi koze az emberi 
hibakhoz.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---

Just the spelling bothers you?

I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

In article >, ErosNET  > wrote:
>test

Hmmmm. A test ma'r megvan. Hova lett a le'lek?
:-)

To: NEWS:SOC.CULTURE.MAGYAR                                              
                                                                      > 
  
                                                                         
I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

To: NEWS:SOC.CULTURE.MAGYAR                                              
                                                                      > 
  
                                                                         
I am surprised by the blatant ignorance of many peoples' view on Magyar 
origins. That is to say we all state a Habsburg-inspired part-truth by 
stating the Magyars are only Finno-Ugric in heritage and that they do not 
derive part of their heritage from the Altaic peoples (Turks, Mongols, 
Manchus, etc.) or anyone else for that matter. But first some background 
into this conspiracy.                                                    
     It is 1849, the Magyars rebels fighting for independance from 
Austria have been finally crushed by Russian forces called on by a 
hard-pressed Habsburg (Austrian) government. Their struggle for 
independance lost, the Magyars are not subjected to a ruthless and cruel 
revenge by the Austrians. First is the exile of many eminent and 
prominent generals and politicians such as Kossuth Lájos and Bem József. 
Next comes the reign of terror of Austrian General Haynau entailing 
arrests and martyring of many rebel survivors and their sympathizers, All 
of this culminating in the execution of 13 Hungarian generals and 
statesmen in the town of Arad. They were later dubbed the "Martyrs of 
Arad". Finally in an attempt to crush the Magyars' independant and 
restless spirit, wholesale Germanization of Magyar culture and life. One 
Austrian official noted "I will first make Hungary a beggar, then a 
Catholic and finally German", blunt words indeed. However, the Austrians 
feeling world pressure for their vicious treatment of Hungary need a 
justification, an excuse...                                              
     In the 1700s an astronomer named Sajnovics, travelled up to northern 
Norway to do some stargazing. Naturally he got bored and he later mingled 
with the local Lappish (Finnic type people) community. Imagine his joy at 
finding that the language of this primitive yet efficient people showing 
similarity with his native Magyar! Eventually, his observations led him 
to write a book on the Magyar-Lapp linguistic relationship where he tries 
to prove the Magyar and Lapp languages as one. Naturally, the proud 
Magyar public was incensed at being related to a group of uncivilized and 
primitive arctic people. The Magyars themselves believed themselves to be 
relatives of the great Scythian nation of peoples which includes tribes 
such as the Scyths, Parthians, Huns, Mongols, Turks, Medians, Sumerians, 
Elamites and Sarmaritans.                                                
      In the 1850s, the Austrians see this little book and observation by 
Sajnovics as the perfect excuse. In using the truth of the Magyar-Lappic 
linguistic relationship to demonstrate that the Magyars are no more than 
uneducated, barbaric people, they convinced many people, Magyar and 
non-Magyar alike that the Magyars deserved such brutal retribution for 
their rebelliousness in the War of Independence. Eventually, 
Austrian-sponsered scholarships and departments all of which harping on 
the Finno-Ugric theory of Magyar origin were fiercly advocated and set up 
by the official scholary guild of Austria-Hungary. At the same time, 
anyone who made reference to Magyar origins with people other than the 
Finno-Ugrians were denounced as chauvinistic and ashamed of his poor 
relatives inhabiting the forests of northern Russia and Siberia. Despite 
this, a few brave souls tried to look beyond the Finno-Ugric theories 
feeling restricted by the guild's guidelines.                            
      At the same time, archaeologists on excavating the first cities of 
mankind in Mesopotamia discovered a new, written language. To their 
surprise these archaeologists found that the world's first written 
language, Sumerian was related to Hungarian! Orientalists such as 
François Lenormant and Jules Oppert observed that Sumerian was like many 
Uralo-Altaic languages especially Magyar with its use of vowel harmony 
and aggluntination. However, Orientalists trying to compare Sumerian with 
all other existing languages plus extinct ones were going mad from the 
task. Eventually, for a while, many considered Sumerian a complete 
isolate as the task of comparing the monosyllabic Sumerian with other 
languages was slow, tedious and maddening work - they gave up trying...  
       As many Magyars and the world was being brainwashed by the 
Austrian-supported theory of Finno-Ugrian origins, a few souls outside of 
the archaeologists tried to compare Sumerian and Magyar. In the 1890s, 
the archaeologists Torma Zsófia discovered Sumerian cuneiform tablets in 
Transylvania and infered that Magyars and Sumerians were related. She was 
laughed at by the Austrian-dominated "Hungarian" Academy of Sciences and 
she died not long afterwards. Then there was Sebestyén György who tried 
to debunk the widely-held theory of the time that the conquering Magyars 
of Arpad were a wild and uncivilized people with no script of their own. 
His oeuvre on the Magyar runic script was his attempt and again like 
Torma he was laughed at. Finally there was Dr. Varga Zsigmond who in 1920 
completed his thesis study on Magyar and Sumerian at the Academy. In a 
classic case of hypocrisy, the study was both praised and scorned by his 
professors. It was praised for its effort however his thesis remained 
unproven as the Academey believed that a language relationship should 
show ample lexical similarities and not just grammatical ones. This Varga 
didn't do as he only showed 108 lexical correspondances between Magyar 
and Sumerian. If Varga were living today he would probably have no 
problem as we know about 4000 Sumerian words now...                      
      I must admit that there is truth in the Magyar-Finno-Ugric 
relationship in structural and lexical similarites. (About 250 
Finno-Ugric-Magyar correspondances) Yet there are 2000 Sumerian-sounding 
words in Magyar which have similar meanings. On top of all that, Sumerian 
grammatical structure is similar to that of Magyar...                    
      Today, most people still believe in the part-true theory and it 
fills me with indignation and seeing Hungarians themselves vehemently 
claim that they are Finno-Ugric and nothing else. Maybe it could inspire 
them a little more if they knew they had links with the Sumerians of 
antiquity. (Wishful thinking?) Anyway, here is a very, very brief summary 
of Magyar origins based on Sumerians...                                  
      It is 2500 BC and we are in Mesopotamia and in this time in 
history, the Sumerians of Central Asian origin rule supreme. Having claim 
to fame as the inventors of the wheel, writing and a host of other 
revolutionary breakthroughs it is only natural that Sumerian culture is 
copied by the numerous invaders into the area (Akkadians, Babylonians, 
Semitic tribes, etc.) However, years of sedentary life have turned 
Sumerians into a complacent and decadent people. By 2200 BC, suffering 
raids from more aggressive tribes from the north, east and west, the 
Sumerians flee their cities in all directions lest they become slaves 
under their new masters. Some travel to India, others even to China. Some 
head back to Central Asia and Persia while others head west towards 
Egypt. However, the majority of them head north to a region of land in 
modern day Eastern Turkey called in those days as SUBARTU, "land of the 
free". It must be noted that there are many words in Egyptian, 
Hurrian, Hittite, Babylonian, Scythian, Magyar, Turkish, Mongolian, 
Chinese and Sanskrit which sound similar to Sumerian ones. (More on this 
at the end of this blurb) Here, they mingle with the local populace, 
enriching their horse-based culture with their urban one. Incidentally, 
the Magyar word SZABAD means "free". Perhaps SUBAR from SUBARTU is 
related to SZABAD? Gradually, these Subartreans of mixed 
Sumerian-Subartrean origin head north to towards the Caucasus to escape 
the growing menace of the war-like Assyrians. It is now about 1200 BC. 
These emigrés inhabiting the Caucasus stay here for several centuries 
before moving even more northward towards the Black Sea steppes.         
      These horse-people stay in this Caucasus-Black Sea region for 
several more centuries until about 600 AD when they run across the 
Khazars and from here the rest is hisotry well known to us (896 
honfoglalas of the Magyars with Arpad, integration of Hungary with Europe 
by the 11th century AD) There you have it a very skimpy summary on Magyar 
origins, none of that Uralic stuff. I admit that from this alone, one 
cannot get a good idea of the new theory and for that I suggesr some web 
pages for the curious browser to check out. They include:...             
1, HTTP://SERVER.SNNI.COM/~FREDH/MAGYARNAM.HTM (Gives insight on the     
                                                origin of the name 
                                                MAGYAR.)                 
2. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/LANGUAGE.HTM (Gives insight on the origin and 
development of the Magyar langauge. This also includes word lists 
comparing Magyar words in many fields such as nature, anatomy and numbers 
with other languages such as Turkish, Finnish, Mongol, Sumerian and 
Egyptian)                                                                
3. HTTP://EXO:COM/~FREDH/ANTHRO.HTM (Gives anthropological and biological 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
4. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/HISTORY.HTM (Gives historical views and 
insights on Magyar origins)                                              
5. HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS,HTM (Gives mythological aspects and 
compares Magyar mythology with Middle Eastern and Sumerian 
mythology/religion)                                                      
     These are but a start as there are some more related web pages by 
the same author (Fred Hamori) discussing Magyars and Sumerians. Well that 
is all I've to say. SO... ÉLJEN MAGYARORSZAG! ÉLJEN SUMÉR! ÉLJEN AZ 
IGAZSAG!                                                                 
                                               Sincerely                 
                                               Pete

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