At 01:42 AM 2/27/97 -0500, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, it's obvious.  They abuse your system because for them, it's less
>expensive. Canada has artificially low medical costs (ala Hungary) because
>the government dictates the price.

No, it doesn't.  We, the people elect our governments, and tell them in no
uncertain terms, that we want socialized medicine.  It's about the only
thing most Canadian agree upon.  And, as a people, we can democratically
decide what we want, and how much we are willing to pay for it.  Do you have
a problem with that?  After all, it's no different from an individual
decision except that we pool our resources and manage to get a better deal
than an individual would.  Simple economics will tell you that 30 million
people acting together can strike a better deal than one individual.  Oh, I
know there are individuals who can do better than a large group, because
they're well off financially, but why promote anti-social behaviour?

>Aren't you having trouble keeping your doctors, Joe?

Yes.  Some enter the profession because they want to make as much money as
they can and they don't care where they make it.  Obviously they don't
belong to 'medcine sans frontiers'.  On the other hand, there are many
doctors in less developed countries who would love to come and work in Canada.

>Personally, I think crossing the border is wrong, and I wish you every
>success in putting all these people in jail.

What?  Do you want the doctors to be cops also?  Their job is to help sick
people, not to jail them.  Besides, jailing people is almost as costly, if
not more so, than treating them.  Besides, we wouldn't have a problem if
Americans had medicare similar to ours.

>In the U.S., you can have your operation anytime if you have the money.

Isn't that nice!!!  Gee, it sounds like paradise!!!

>In Canada, you often cannot have the operation at all even if you have
>millions.

That's right.  Health care is a human right in Canada.  Everyone is supposed
to be equal.  Health care is not a commodity to be sold on the market.  It
is a social service.

>Is there a compromise?  Perhaps, but you may depend on the government to
>ignore it.

I, and most Canadians, will not vote for a political party that is willing
to compromise our medicare.  In some areas, like medicare, money and Moloch
do not rule!

<snip>
>Attack ad hominem, Joe?  You can do better than that.  Money, like it or
>not, drives the economy.  Hungarian potatoes are cheap, because there are
>lots of them.  Hungarian medical care is expensive, because it is scarce.
> Artificially drive down the price of something, you get overconsumption
>and shortages, which, in a free market, drives the price back up and
>encourages production, which lowers the price again.  Or don't they teach
>this stuff in Canada?  This is hardly rocket science.  It will work with
>roadside lemonade stands and nuclear arms.  And it works fine with medical
>care, too, if the government stays the heck out of it.

And just who do you think the government is?  It's us.  We are a democratic
people and we freely elect our government.  They are us.  Demonize the
government and you demonize us.  Why are you so anti-democratic?

And, thanks for the economics 101 lesson.  You believe that the economy
depends as much on economists as the weather does on weather forecasters.

<snip>
>Incidentally, Joe, you said that Canadians would continue to improve their
>medical system.  What improvements were you thinking of?  I know Canada's
>medical system is admired a great deal all over the world, and very much in
>America, too, more's the pity, but there you are.  I'd like to know what
>you consider to be the problems that could use improving (I have a fairly
>long list for America, myself).

We can improve our medicare by extending coverage to prescription drugs,
dental work, and eye care.  They are vital to good health.

Joe Szalai

At 07:11 AM 2/27/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

>Sure, Joe.  You could certainly save a lot of money by just shutting down
>the military.

I have always thought so.  It is one of my dreams.  Imagine, a world without
conflict.

>Canada could then play Japan to America, and save the cost
>of building a real armed forces.

It certainly hasn't hurt Japan, has it?

>But nobody is suggesting this, and I apologize if I gave the impression
>that there are not things I think taxes do well.

Well, aren't you a toady?

>Taxes do better for me what it is impossible for me to do for myself, such
>as defend an entire country.

Are you Superman, otherwise?

>There are other things taxes do not do so well, such as deciding for me how
>fast I may drive on the highway.

And do you have a deathwish?  Or are you naturally reckless?

>Or which doctors I may see, and how much my wages have to drop to pay for
>my "free" medical care.  Or invest for my retirement (Social Security,
>Heaven save it, gets a -2.25% return annually during the longest bull
>market in history).  These are decisions I can make for myself better than
>anyone in Washington.

There are costs to living in society.  And I think you're oppossed to
government programmes because you're insecure.  You don't trust that
society, or 'others', will be there for you in case of need.  And because
you feel that way, you don't want to be there for 'others' now.  But it's a
good circular argument and you get, or at least argue to get, to keep most
of your money.  Rather self-serving, wouldn't you say?

>No way in the world am I going to defend NATO.  Hungarian participation
>should be based on economic advantages, not military ones, because there
>will be none.  If it makes no sense economically, Hungary shouldn't do it.
> NATO is a dinosaur.  I'm one of those weird people that thinks that if
>the U.S. had brought everyone home from Europe in 1960, the cold war would
>have been over thirty years ago.
>
>Hungary can expect from NATO's military forces exactly what they got in
>1956. NATO has neither the desire nor the huevos to use the armor it has.
>Your thoughts, Joe?  What does Canada think about all this?

I don't know what Canada thinks about all this.

I'm not oppossed to Hungary being in NATO or the EC.

Joe Szalai

E. Balogh - At 08:45 PM 27/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
I am snipping the parts of your post which are conducive to pages upon
pages upon pages worth of extremely interesting comparatives.   Instead,
I'll cut it short and sweet:-) (well, you all know, my short & sweet by now
 ... right?:-).

>        But since then something else happened which Canada didn't have in
>those days. With the exception of ordinary income tax and sales tax one
>didn't pay all those things Aniko is talking about. I guess I left at the
>right time. Yes, I do pay for my own health insurance but I am very happy
>with the service I am getting through a health plan which does its business
>through Yale-New Haven Hospital. I don't think I can ask for much better
>anywhere in the world. And yes, I pay for it but I do get very good service.
>Very good service!!

You've basically hit on the point which in retrospect I feel I failed to
get across.  That being, that the difference between the taxation
structures is such, that when extremely carefully examined, will result in
the frightful realization that we both end up forking out close to, if not
equal to the same amount of $'s.  Only ours tends to be buried, (deeply,
might I add) therefore lend to being ignored/forgotten.  Your Health care
expense, is blatantly there - but your other tax structure in general (as
per my understanding that is) allows the affording of equal to if not
better Health care service(s).

Let me put it in more realistic terms.  I buy a car, on Jan 1st let's say,
20K.  In that one acquisition, I have contributed $3,754.00 in total taxes.
 Of which, $2,354.00 is strictly towards my health care in NS.   Now, let's
say I need a lawyer who charges me 5K for his/her service.  There is,
another $588.50 towards my health care.  Not to mention, that I am likely
paying a minimum of $1500.00/year for some sort of extended benefit....  So
far, I have contributed 4,442.50 towards my annual health care "policy" so
to say; and am still in January.

Not to forget, I must also continue to buy toilet paper, toothbrushes, and
likely clothes, shoes other necessities for my entire family.  Must also
add, both taxes are; on heating costs, water utilities, telephone expenses.
 Should I be amongst the considered fortunate, hell, I might even buy
books, CD's, a television, dog/cat food/ a gadget for my kitchen, Cable tv,
 .. etc, etc, etc..... (many X this etc) for the 11 remaining months.  Start
adding, and multiplying US/Canadian residents.  Your system (US) is not
nearly as bad as you think it is.  It's not as "free" north of you, as it
doeth seemeth!" And, for our Canadian listers, we all, are not entirely as
freely provided for with Health care, as we'd like to believe.  - once one
is to take a realistic, relative comparison of all related angles - spelled
out item by item that is.

But, having said all of this, I continue to consider us (US/Canadians)
extremely fortunate .... since when comparing *all* related angles, some
other countries whose taxes include .... annually enforced taxes based on
the size of the engine of the car you drive; drainage tax (go figure? -
calculated on the square meterage of the roof of your home, results in
determining the waste water from natural sources ie: rain, melted snow,
which puts an unnecessary demand on water/waste management facilities;)
diesel you say? - additional taxes etc etc etc etc .... we're both doing
'relatively' better.

Like I said in my original post.... I think it imperative that *all*
related angles of any two system ought to be examined and scrutinized -
prior to making any judgement call of one systems' ad/disadvantage over the
other.

>Best wishes you to all, Eva
Ditto - Aniko

>
>
>

In a message dated 97-02-27 12:32:23 EST, you write:

<< No, I don't think it's weird to think the cold war would have been over.
 The outcome might have been slightly different though, at least in Europe.
 (:-)) >>

Touche.  For a moment I forgot having my camera confiscated at the Czech
border because I had an American passport.  Your point is well taken.

Kristof

Joe - At 11:13 PM 27/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>No, it doesn't.  We, the people elect our governments, and tell them in no
>uncertain terms, that we want socialized medicine.  It's about the only
>thing most Canadian agree upon.  And, as a people, we can democratically
>decide what we want, and how much we are willing to pay for it.  Do you have
>a problem with that?
[..]
Kakapupu Joe ... primarily referring that is, to the fact that I  was,
ready for bed after having sent in my last post ... and downloaded also.
Here you are!  Oh well, sleep can wait!  Yes, I do have a problem with that
statement, and forgive my budding in too.

Secondary kakapupu .... My problem lies between your perceived socialized
medical benefit, and the effective amount of hidden/ignored/$'s it's really
costing you/us to get it.  In addition, my problem lies with; whenever did
any of us, let alone you or I  for that matter, were given an opportunity
to agree on the amount we're willing to pay? .... Speaking for myself (no
dirty comeback either ha?) No one ever asked!  It came as the "400lb
gorilla surprise" to me; as I am sure did to many of the rest of us.  No!
Under no circumstance, did I ever, agree to pay the amount I do; nor did
anyone ever consult me either.  Nor, do I now, or did I ever have a choice
in the end.

"And, as a people, we can democratically decide what we want, and how much
we are willing to pay for it. "
Cut & pasted from your above  words.... Would you plllleeeeaaaassssseeeee?
expound on this?

>After all, it's no different from an individual
>decision except that we pool our resources and manage to get a better deal
>than an individual would.  Simple economics will tell you that 30 million
>people acting together can strike a better deal than one individual.  Oh, I
>know there are individuals who can do better than a large group, because
>they're well off financially, but why promote anti-social behaviour?

Geez Joe.... $($)*%)$*)*#$)(*#$))#% (got the picture yet)?  If, 30 million
people in Canada, would have the "b...."'s to ever stand up to anything at
all, Mulrooney would never have gotten away with successfully implementing
the GST in the first place ... (let's face it, over 60% of poles dictated
to the contrary of implementation)  let alone his latest lawsuit against
the Canadian Government!  Reality check?  We are, 30 mil complacent
(plainly, no balls, period).  Not to exclude those individuals, whom you
deem to be able to do better than a large group .... And ... lest we get
into a major ugly dispute - for which I have not time for at this moment;
I've cut the inticing stuff.  However ... you say:

>We can improve our medicare by extending coverage to prescription drugs,
>dental work, and eye care.  They are vital to good health.
[...]
Right you are .... for an additional approximated $7000.00/year, you, I, or
anyone has total access to such+.  With any luck the employer at hand will
co share the cost.    It is after all, exactly what we got, since "as
people, we democratically decided on what we wanted, and how much we were
willing to pay for it."

Forgive me .... but geezzz... when the blood doesth boil?....

Best to all, Aniko

In article >,
 says...
>
>20 years ago, I can well believe that this was a problem.  That sort of
>surgery was new and very expensive,

The surgery I had was done the old-fashioned way and was nothing new
about it.  I was in the hospital for a week.

Thanks for your sympathy re my husband.  No, I don't deal with it for 20
years, only for about 8, and it is only the past couple of years when it
really started to be difficult - but it won't get easier.

Agnes

At 09:02 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:

<snip>
>        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
>out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
>milked out of it.

Legally or illegally?

It has been my experience that most people, the vast majority, live legally.
Most people will not cheat!  They will live by the rules.  Maybe your
coterie of friends are different.

Joe Szalai

from a Hungarian weekly and published it in another list. I am sure he will
not mind if I reproduce it here. I will also summarize it in English:

"A kozel felmillio, piacra dolgozo hazai kistermelo kozul mindossze 13 229 akad
t 1995-ben, aki adokoteles jovedelmet vallott be, de ok is csak atlagosan 68 ez
er forintot, s mivel 110 ezer forint alatt nem kellett adozniuk, tulnyomo tobbs
eguk egyetlen fillert sem fizetett az adohatosagnak. Ehhez kepest az egyeni gaz
dalkodok tulajdonaban volt 1995 december 31-en a kozel egymillios hazai szarvas
marha-allomany tobb mint egynegyede, az otmillios sertesallomany fele, a szinte
n kozel egymillios juhallomany haromnegyede es a 31 millios tyukallomany hatvan
 szazaleka."

[Out of the approximately half a million smallholders only 13,229 admitted
to any taxable income in 1995. This admitted taxable income was so low that
on the average it involved only 68,000 Fts in taxes. However, since under
110,000 Fts they didn't have to pay taxes, the great majority paid not a
penny. In comparison, as of December 31, 1995, individual farmers had in
ther possession approximately 25 percent of Hungary five million cows, half
of the country's five million pigs, 75 percent of all sheep and 60 percent
of 31 million chickens.]

        The poor little exploited lambs! The poor treasury! The poor city folks
!

        Eva Balogh

At 07:08 AM 2/28/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 09:02 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:
>
><snip>
>>        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
>>out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
>>milked out of it.
>
>Legally or illegally?
>
>It has been my experience that most people, the vast majority, live legally.
>Most people will not cheat!  They will live by the rules.  Maybe your
>coterie of friends are different.

        Some legally and some illegally, as I mentioned the guidelines are
lax. For example, when certain kind of disability you can still work
legally. But some are paying off crooked doctors.

        As to my dishonest "coterie of friends," I don't have friends on
disability. As for your comment: it was pretty low.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks to Kriszti and Gotthard, our Danube web-page is now accessible through
a number of "servers." In that connection:

1) I would like to ask all you computer wizard members of the Hungarian Lobby
to do what you can to increase this exposure, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, which
is still asleep! Please help, so that if people search for indormation
cocerning such key words as: 

Danube Lawsuit,
Duna,
Gabcikovo,
Bos,
Nagymaros,
International Court of Justice,
ICJ
Environmental Lawsuit
Slovak-Hungarian Lawsuit
Hungarian-Slovak Lawsuit

or any combination of them, they will be directed to our web page at:

http:/www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm


An item of good news: Thanks to Sandor Posvari and the support of the Soros
Foundation, now there is a Danube web-page in Hungary too and they are
"linking" ours. Thanks to Sandor and to the Soros Foungation.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

In today's NYTimes, Patrick E. Teyler has written a full page article,
describing the struggle of our distant relatives, that of the "Uighurs",
against Chian's policy of assimilation. It seems we should do three things:

1) We could use this opportunity to write letters, in which we speak up for
the concept of cultural autonomy and collective human rights for both the
Uighurs and the people of Tibet. (I will never forget that the Dalai Lama
took the trouble of personally visiting us, and assuring us of his support,
in our MEFESZ office 40 years ago.)
ADDRESS: 

2) We could send similar, but broader summaries to the weekly review summary
page of the NYTimes: ADDRESS: 

3) Finally, if a member of the Hungarian Lobby would valunteer to take on
this task, we should organize a jaint effort with the various lobbies of the
former captive nations and such organisations az Amnesty International, and
initiate a major effort to change our China policy.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

In today's NYTimes, Patrick E. Teyler has written a full page article,
describing the struggle of our distant relatives, that of the "Uighurs",
against Chian's policy of assimilation. It seems we should do three things:

1) We could use this opportunity to write letters, in which we speak up for
the concept of cultural autonomy and collective human rights for both the
Uighurs and the people of Tibet. (I will never forget that the Dalai Lama
took the trouble of personally visiting us, and assuring us of his support,
in our MEFESZ office 40 years ago.)
ADDRESS: 

2) We could send similar, but broader summaries to the weekly review summary
page of the NYTimes: ADDRESS: 

3) Finally, if a member of the Hungarian Lobby would valunteer to take on
this task, we should organize a jaint effort with the various lobbies of the
former captive nations and such organisations az Amnesty International, and
initiate a major effort to change our China policy.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks to Kriszti and Gotthard, our Danube web-page is now accessible through
a number of "servers." In that connection:

1) I would like to ask all you computer wizard members of the Hungarian Lobby
to do what you can to increase this exposure, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, which
is still asleep! Please help, so that if people search for indormation
cocerning such key words as:

Danube Lawsuit,
Duna,
Gabcikovo,
Bos,
Nagymaros,
International Court of Justice,
ICJ
Environmental Lawsuit
Slovak-Hungarian Lawsuit
Hungarian-Slovak Lawsuit

or any combination of them, they will be directed to our web page at:

http:/www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm


An item of good news: Thanks to Sandor Posvari and the support of the Soros
Foundation, now there is a Danube web-page in Hungary too and they are
"linking" ours. Thanks to Sandor and to the Soros Foungation.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Tisztelt Honfitarsam!

Nagyon fontos, hogy a kornyezetvedo szervezetek altal szervezett
Duna-tuntetesek az osszmagyar osszefogas jegyeben follyanak le, s ne adjanak
alkalmat parterdekek szolgalatara. Nagyon fontos, hogy ezeken a koalicio es
az ellenzek egyutt lepjen fel, hogy igy a vilagsajto egysegben lassa a Dunat
vedo osszmagyar tarsadalmat.

Ezert mi magyar kornyezetvedok kerjuk, hogy az aprilis 3-ra (arra a teljes
napra melyet a hagai birok Magyarorszagon toltenek) tervezett orszagos
megmozdulasokon ne turjuk meg a politikai megnyilvanulasokat. E tomegeknek
egyreszt a kormany hagai keresete MELLETT, masreszt a hagai birosag MELLETT
kell tuntetniuk es transzparenseiknek is ezt kell kifejezniok az alabbiakhoz
hasonlo feliratokkal:
 
               "Eljen A Hagai Nemzetkozi Birosag
               Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy visszaadja ivóvizünket 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy megvédi a Szigetközt 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy megvédi a jogrendet 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy visszaadja határfolyónkat" 

Legyunk vegre egyszer okos, gyakorlatias hazafiak. Egyszerre harcoljunk a
letargikusok pesszimizmusa es a parterdekeket szolgalo sunyi manipulansok
ellen. Ha kepesek vagyunk erre, akkor gyozni fogunk! Akkor mellenk all a
vilag kozvelemenye, s megnyerjuk a pert!

Errol (is) szol a HVG-nek tegnap bekuldott (mellekelt) irasom, melyet ertheto
okokbol ekezettel irtam. Elnezest kerek, hogy az altalam hasznalt AOL a hozzu
o" es u" betuket nem hasznalja, s ezert azokat az alabb lathato furcsa modon
voltam kenytelen irni.

Liptak Bela
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 

Tisztelt Szerkeszto"ség!                               Kelt Stamfordban, 1997
február 27-én

97/9-es számuk 107-es oldalán, a hágai per kapcsán megjelent cikkük négy
okból is elmarasztalandó: A) Hibás adatokat közöl, B) Hibásan ismerteti a
Hágai Bíróság hatáskörét, C) Nem ismerteti a legfontosabb új fejleményeket,
és végül D) Személyeskedik.

        Hibás Adatok

Helyszu"ke miatt csak egy példátját emlitem az adatbéli hibáknak:  "Bo"s
Szlovákia áramtermelésének 10%-át adja" - irjak. 
       A tény az, hogy mivel a beépített turbinák átlagterhelése a beépített
kapacitásnak alig 50%-a és mivel a termelt áram fele eltulajdonított (magyar)
tulajdon, e szám nem 10% hanem 3%. A  "C"  variáns építésekor Julius Binder
még azt igérte, hogy Bo"s termelése majd leheto"vé teszi a szén és atom
ero"mu"vek leállítását. Ma tovább szennyeznek a ho"ero"mu"vek és épül Mohiban
az atomero"mu".

        A Bíróság Hatásköre

A HVG összetéveszti a beadványt a birósági jogkörrel: Igaz, hogy az ICJ csak
olyan perekben dönt, melyekben a felek elfogadták a ICJ joghatóságát és egy
közösen megfogalmazott kérésben EGYÜTT kérték a biróság döntését. Ezért olyan
a közös beadvány amilyen. De a lényeg, mit a HVG meg sem elít, nem ez!
        A lényeg az, hogy a bíróság a döntésében azt vesz figyelembe amit
akar! A bíróságra nem vonatkozik a mi  kényszerzubbonyunk.  Velük szemben
nincs vétójoga Binderéknek. A Birok nem közös beadványt fogalmaznak, hanem
döntenek arról, hogy melyik félnek van igaza. Ezért a bíróságnak joga van
figyelembe venni a különbséget az útonálló és a kirabolt áldozat között akkor
is, ha  o"k a közös beadványukban tegyük fel, hogy csak abban kértek döntést,
hogy a kirablás eredményeként "kinek lett piszkosabb a ruhája?"
        A döntést hozó bíróságnak joga van hivatkozni az ENSZ Alapokmányától,
a Párisi Békeszerzo"désen keresztül, a határfolyókat érinto"  korábbi
precedensekig és a határfolyókra vonatkozó nemzetközi jogrend szabályaiig
bármire. Ezért fontos, hogy megszólaljon nemcsak a magyar és a világ
közvéleménye, de megszólaljanak az emberiséget a 21-ik századba vezeto"
államférfiak is. 
        
        Nem Szól A Legfontosabb Fejleményekro"l

Érthetetlen számomra, hogy miért hallgat a HVG a Duna Pert illeto"
 legfontosabb fejleményekro"l, tehát arról, hogy a világ környezetvédo"i és a
határfolyóval rendelkezo"  nemzetek egyaránt felsorakoztak mellettunk. Miért
nem említi, hogy a kilenc nemzetközi környezetvédelmi NGO közös beadványát
elfogadta a bíróság, s hogy a szintén általunk, környezetvédo"k által
összeállított Kompromisszum Tervnek is nagy a támogatottsága.
      Különösen érthetetlen számomra, hogy miért nem említi, ismerteti a
cikk, a végre megmozdúlt 1.58 milliós amerikai magyarság mellékelt, Dole
alelnökhöz és Albright külügyminiszter asszonyhoz címzett leveleit, s az ezek
kapcsán létrejött nemzetközi érdeklo"dést. Miért men említi felhívásunkat,
kérésünket a magyar néphez, azt hogy: "Ti otthoni honfitaqrsaink, Ti is
írjátok alá e leveleket, szánjátok rá a bélyeget, ne nézo"i, de résztvevo"i
legyetek igaz harcunknak!  Szinte már azt gondolhatná az ember, hogy az ilyen
cikknek burkolt célja a pesszimizmus, a letargia terjesztése, nem a tettekre
való lelkesítés; nem a hit adás, hanem a kedvszegés. A sajtónak nem ez a
dolga, nem ezért vállalta Táncsics a börtönt!         

        Személyesked  Rosszindulat

A HVG ezt is irja: " .. nyilvánvaloan hatástalan marad tehát például a
közismert amerikai magyar mozgalmárnak, Lipták Bélának a hágai bíróság
épületével szemben tervezett hétfo"i néma tüntetése." 
       A fenti mondattal szeretnék részletesebben foglalkozni, mert az sokat
mond, nem is annyira rólam, mint a HVG cikk írójáról, meg a közvéleményt
formáló magyar sajtóról: 
       (1) A  "nyilvánvalóan hatástalan marad"  mondatrészhez szinte már
hozzákívánkozik a szerzo"  ama véleménye, hogy  "jajj, de jó!"  Ismerem, de
nem értem ezt a furcsa lelki beállítottságot. Amikor 1992 októberében három
napig gyalogoltam a Szigetközben, remélve hogy a Martin Luther Kingto"l
kölcsönzött módszeremmel felébresztem majd az országot, s együtt odaállunk a
buldózerek elé, hogy megakadályozzuk a Duna elterelését, akkor az Esti Hirlap
azt írta rólam, hogy: "a gyilkolásért elítélt Jurta szinház tulajdonosa nálam
tartja a pénzét", amikor 1993, 1994 majd 1995-ben buszokat béreltem,
transzparenseket nyomtattam, hogy emlékeztessük a világot Szigetköz
tragédiájára, akkor a Népszavából megtudtam, hogy: "kibicnek kuss". (Magyar
Személyazonossági Igazolvánnyal, szavazati joggal rendelkezo"  ketto"s
állampolgár vagyok.) Most pár hete pedig, amikor ellenezni mertem a Dunának
titkos megegyezéssel valo angolvécésítését, akkor az Új Magyarország állítása
szerint (Soros Györggyel együtt) "CIA ügynöknek" neveztek a  "Reális zöldek".
       (2) "mozgalmár":  Tizenkét éve volt, hogy Szalay Sándor, az MTA
interdiszciplináris bizottsága elnökének kérésére elkezdtem a Dunával,
Szigetközzel foglalkozni. 12 évbe tartott, hogy beteljen a pohár, hogy
válaszoljak erre a  mozgalmár  jelzo"re. Attól, hogy valaki hisz valamiben, s
azért áldozni is hajlandó, attól azért még lehet szakmája is! Én példáúl
mu"szaki tanácsdó vagyok, tanítottam az itteni Yale egyetem, és az otthoni
Mu"egyetem mellett 14 országban, kiadtam 20 mu"szaki kötetet, most áprilisban
jelenik meg a Környezetvédo"  Mérnökök Kézikönyve (Environmental Engineers'
Handbook) címu", több mint ezer oldalas munkám második kiadása.
       (3) "hétfo"i tüntetésem" : Nem igaz, hogy én tüntetést szerveznék a
hágai bíróság ellen, elött, hétfo"n vagy bármikor. Tudomásom szerint
hétfo"re, (amikor a magyar fél ismerteti álláspontját), senki sem tervez
tüntetést. Tudomásom szerint a nemzetközi NGOk a szlovák fél álláspontjának
ismertetésének idejére (március 24-28) tervezik hágai tüntetésüket, míg a
magyar környezetvédo"k április 3-ára, csütörtökre tervezik méltóságos, a
bíróságba vetett bizalmukat kifejezo"  felvonulásaikat. Én tehát egyetlen
tüntetést sem tervezek-szervezek, so"t; annak elkerülésére, hogy a magyar
sajtó a tüntetésekro"l és ne a  "kibic  és  CIA ügynök"  jómagamról írjon,
azokon részt sem veszek!
        (4) Végül azért kénytelen vagyok pár szót ejteni a közakarat
megnyilvánulásáról, magáról a  tüntetésro"l  is. Hát mit gondol kedves
olvasóm, mit tenne az amerikai vagy izraeli nép, ha Mexikó vagy Szíria
elterelte volna határfolyóját, ha homokbuckákká változtatta volna
szigetvilágát, ha falvaiba zacskóban érkezne az ivóvíz és kórházba kerülne a
folyóba merészkedo"  gyerek? Bizony megmozdulna mindket nép! Bizony azon
csodálkozna a világ, ha nem ezt tenné! Megnozdulna még akkor is, ha
politikusainak figyelmét elterelni a pártharc vagy a konc körüli tolakodás.
Megmozdulnának az egyházi vezeto"k, az egyetemek rektorai, a polgármesterek,
az iskolák és egyletek vezeto"i, százezrek vonulnának fel! 
         Én nagyon remélem, hogy április 3-án, olyan feliratú transzparensek
megett, mint:
              "Eljenek a Hagai Birak
               Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy visszaadja ivóvizünket 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy megvédi a Szigetközt 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy megvédi a jogrendet 
         Bízunk a Bíróságban, hogy visszaadja határfolyónkat" 

és a hiteles közéleti személyiségekkel az élén vonul fel majd nem csak
Szigetköz és Csallóköz népe, de az egész ország! Ha ez megtörténik, úgy
betölti majd a hír a világ médiáit. Akkor megmentjük a Pannon tenger
évezredes deltáját is meg saját önbecsülésünket is. Akkor megmutatjuk, hogy
nem vagyunk lelkét veszített szolga nép.
Akkor megmutatjuk, hogy demokraciara errett, felnott nep vagyunk, mert az
ellenzek is,  a helyi es a zold civil tarsadalom is felsorakozik majd a
kormany altal benyujtott
kereset mellett, hogy igy a kormany keresete a civil tarsadalom kepviselete
lehessen: ez a gyakorlatias hazafisag. A spekulacio, hogy ezt a tamogatast
nem kimutatni esetleg segithet a perben: az onmagat beteljesito pesszimista
hagyomany.

Emlekezzunk arra is, hogy a Duna a mi hatarfolyonk, azt megvedeni a mi
dolgunk. De emlekezzunk arra is, hogy csak azt veszitjuk el amit magunk
feladunk, s mi a Dunat nem adjuk fel!

Lipták Béla

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Sandor Posvari)
To:	
CC:	
Date: 97-02-28 06:11:03 EST

>To: 
>From: Sandor Posvari >
>Subject: Vízpróba
>
>Tisztelt Szerkesztőség,
>a HVG március 1-i számában közölt "Vízpróba" c. cikkhez gratulálok, hosszú
ideje az első olyan publikált "mű", ami igen alaposan, realista módon
mutatja be az első "helyszini szemlével" párosuló nemzetközi pört.
>Sajnálatos, hogy a szerző nem közli azoknak a szakértőknek a nevét, akik
szerint a Lipták Béla által hétfőre, a hágai bíróság épületével szemben
szervezett néma tüntetés "nyilvánvalóan hatástalan marad". Nem igazán
hiszem, hogy komoly szakértők gazdag tapasztalatán nyugvó megállapítással
van dolgunk, mivel ilyen jellegű pör a történelemben nem volt,  de arról
sincs tudomásunk - így a szerzőnek sem - hogy bármikor hasonló jellegű
megmozdulást terveztek volna környezetükért aggódó emberek. Érdekességként
meg kell jegyeznem, hogy Internetes hírforrások szerint mintegy 30 magyar
joghallgató is Hágában tartózkodik immáron több mint egy hete . Megjegyezném:
az 1980-as évek legelején, zöldfülű fiatal diplomásként  tanúja voltam -
egy, a környezetvédelemhez közelálló állami hivatalban -, amint a
Bős-Nagymarosi "szigorúan titkos" tervek első olvasásakor tanult munkatársam
felsóhajtott: "Vége a Szigetköznek". Neki ott és akkor, ehhez mindössze 10
percre volt szüksége. Rendkívül sajnálatos, hogy másoknak 17 év is kevés.
>Üdvözlettel
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Sandor POSVARI Citizen of Ladonia: www.aim.se/ladonia/
H-1145 Budapest, Amerikai út 47.
Voice: (+36-1) 222-6379
Fax/Voice reciver::(+36-1) 252-1302
GSM: (+36-30) 493923
E-mail: 
http://euroastra.interdnet.hu
> --------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Sandor Posvari)
To:     
CC:     
Date: 97-02-28 06:11:03 EST

>To: 
>From: Sandor Posvari >
>Subject: Vízpróba
>
>Tisztelt Szerkesztőség,
>a HVG március 1-i számában közölt "Vízpróba" c. cikkhez gratulálok, hosszú
ideje az első olyan publikált "mű", ami igen alaposan, realista módon
mutatja be az első "helyszini szemlével" párosuló nemzetközi pört.
>Sajnálatos, hogy a szerző nem közli azoknak a szakértőknek a nevét, akik
szerint a Lipták Béla által hétfőre, a hágai bíróság épületével szemben
szervezett néma tüntetés "nyilvánvalóan hatástalan marad". Nem igazán
hiszem, hogy komoly szakértők gazdag tapasztalatán nyugvó megállapítással
van dolgunk, mivel ilyen jellegű pör a történelemben nem volt,  de arról
sincs tudomásunk - így a szerzőnek sem - hogy bármikor hasonló jellegű
megmozdulást terveztek volna környezetükért aggódó emberek. Érdekességként
meg kell jegyeznem, hogy Internetes hírforrások szerint mintegy 30 magyar
joghallgató is Hágában tartózkodik immáron több mint egy hete . Megjegyezném:
az 1980-as évek legelején, zöldfülű fiatal diplomásként  tanúja voltam -
egy, a környezetvédelemhez közelálló állami hivatalban -, amint a
Bős-Nagymarosi "szigorúan titkos" tervek első olvasásakor tanult munkatársam
felsóhajtott: "Vége a Szigetköznek". Neki ott és akkor, ehhez mindössze 10
percre volt szüksége. Rendkívül sajnálatos, hogy másoknak 17 év is kevés.
>Üdvözlettel
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Sandor POSVARI Citizen of Ladonia: www.aim.se/ladonia/
H-1145 Budapest, Amerikai út 47.
Voice: (+36-1) 222-6379
Fax/Voice reciver::(+36-1) 252-1302
GSM: (+36-30) 493923
E-mail: 
http://euroastra.interdnet.hu
> --------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Fellow Hungarians,

   This is my first attempt to have a say in this domain.
   As a former 56-er, I look forward with great anticipation to the date when
Hungary will become a member of NATO and the EC.
   Back, in 57, when I came to Canada, I thought that shortly other
countries will also rise up against the Russian imperialism. As the years
passed, this hope has faded. After the spring of Prague in 68, I gave up
hope entirely, that I will live as long as Hungary will get rid of the
Russians.
   Life was, however, good to me. After two heart attacks, an open heart surger
y
extended my life expectancy, so I survived to the day the Russians left Hungary
.
Now, I enjoy reading the papers, talking again about Central Europe, instead of
Eastern Europe, about Hungary being second after Bahamas in tourists per capita
,
about Hungary being first in the rise of stock exchange averages, the
highest capital inflow outside the former western world and so on, and so on.
   I cannot second-guess the present Hungarian government's informations and
choices for actions within the given elbow room, but I trust it does what it ca
n
to assure law and order, peace and security for the country.
   Yes, the British gave away Czechoslovakia to the Germans in Munich. Yes, the
Americans gave away Hungary to the Russians in Yalta. Yes, these countries
were not theirs to give away, and yes, they could do so again if they
wished, despite
NATO and EC memberships.
   But not so easily.

                                  Istvan L. Szabolcsy

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the
future is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

At 01:11 AM 2/28/97 -0400, Aniko wrote, quoting me:

>Yes, I do pay for my own health insurance but I am very happy
>>with the service I am getting through a health plan which does its business
>>through Yale-New Haven Hospital. I don't think I can ask for much better
>>anywhere in the world. And yes, I pay for it but I do get very good service.
>>Very good service!!
>
>You've basically hit on the point which in retrospect I feel I failed to
>get across.  That being, that the difference between the taxation
>structures is such, that when extremely carefully examined, will result in
>the frightful realization that we both end up forking out close to, if not
>equal to the same amount of $'s.  Only ours tends to be buried, (deeply,
>might I add) therefore lend to being ignored/forgotten.  Your Health care
>expense, is blatantly there - but your other tax structure in general (as
>per my understanding that is) allows the affording of equal to if not
>better Health care service(s).

        Exactly, it is buried and therefore not immediately recognized. I,
on the other hand, moan when I pay my health insurance because I have to
dish it out by taking out the checkbook and write out a check as opposed to
taxes tagged on to every purchase I make. But the insurance I have pays for
everything. I pay only $5.00 for any medicine. It may cost hundreds of
dollars but I still pay only $5.00. I pay $15.00 for an office visit.
(Earlier it was entirely free but too many people went to the doctor too
often for no good reason. Mind you, I don't think $15.00 will change the
habits of hypochondriacs!). All tests and all hospital stays are paid by the
insurance company. A couple of years ago I had an eye operation (didn't
involve hospital stay) and the bill was over $6,000. I didn't have to pay a
penny. (It is something else that an eye operation should cost that much.
Mind you it was micro-surgery but still.) By the way, I have a theory about
why the cost of medical care is so high--the same reason body work on cars
is high. The providers know that the insurance pays for it and not the
individual. So they don't care about costs.

        And to add a little Hungarian content to this note, here and there I
am stimply astonished. I was reading a feature story of sorts the other day
about people on disability. One woman who was interviewed announced that she
had inoperable lung cancer and although she was supposed to have died
several times over she has not and she is now on disability. But the
interesting part of her story was the following few sentences (I am quoting
from memory). "I went to a routine checkup in January and in April I was
informed that I had inoperable lung cancer." Az ember haja szala egnek all.
"One's hair stands straight up" hearing these kind of things. And, by the
way, the English national health insurance is practically bankrupt, the
delays are incredible and anyone with any money avoids the insurance he/she
is paying for in forms of taxes. And as far as I know there are problems in
Canada also.

        A little addendum. I have a friend in Germany, a dentist, who has
two or three employees. She told me, semi-jokingly of course, that she would
love to have an experiment. Instead of the employer paying the taxes on
behalf of the employee and taking off half the medical insurance, social
security, etc. etc. from their paychecks, she would give them their full
salary without any deducions. It would be their duty to pay the taxes out of
their full paycheck!! What do you think--would happen she asked me. My hunch
was that the government would receive a great deal less money!!

        Eva Balogh

At 01:00 PM 2/28/97 +0100, Gorgy Kadar wrote:

>        The constant repetition of the number 1 millio HUF, 1.5 million
>HUF, 6000 US$, 8500 US$ urged me to draw the attention to the fact, that
>in the agriculture a private owner of a piece of land works and pays all
>kinds of goods and services without income during the year in order to
>arrive to the harvest, when the profit comes in a very short period, and
>according to official figures accepted even by the government the profit
>of the whole year efforts is at most 15% of the gross income.

        Dear Gyorgy, this is becoming tiresome. We all pay taxes and some of
us are self-employed, like myself. We do know the difference between gross
income and net, taxable income. You don't have to repeat yourself fifty
million times. The problem is that since the farmers didn't need (and still
don't need) any proof of their incomes and expenditures your "official
figures" of profit as 15% of gross is simply meaningless. It is not worth
the paper it is calculated on. If it weren't so the farmers wouldn't be
fighting tooth and nail about itemization, receipts, bookkeeping and such
mundane affairs which are part and parcel of life in western democracies.

        The trouble with you is that you are an ideologue and a political
partisan who simply incapable of looking at similar occurrences under the
same light. I bet that you were not sympathizing with the cab drivers when
they practically paralyzed the country because the price of gasoline
doubled--in order to bring it up to cost--after a few months the Antall
government had taken office. I bet you thought that the cab drivers were
absolute no-goods, who cheated their customers, whose activities were part
of the black economy, and who were bent on bringing down the first
democratically elected government of Hungary. In brief, you didn't feel that
their cause was just. I agree with you, their cause was most likely unjust.
You are, I am sure, were terribly upset with the SZDSZ and the MSZP--then in
opposition--which took advantage of the blockade of the cab drivers to their
own political advantage. Today, the opposition parties are "sponsoring" the
farmers' blockade. I bet today you are not upset with the Smallholders or
the Christian Democrats, or other opposition parties because they are behind
the farmers. I personally don't think that the farmers' cause is just as I
don't think that the cab drivers' cause was just. You, however, think that
the farmers' cause is fully justified, I suspect, because you don't
particularly like this government. So, for Pete's sake, try, just try a bit
to be more objective and even-handed.

        And one more piece of news from Hungary. Although the farmers agreed
to the so-called compromise, they didn't stop their blockade. Now they are
protesting against the entire "agricultural policy" of the government.

        Eva Balogh

At 11:13 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 07:11 AM 2/27/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:
>
>>Sure, Joe.  You could certainly save a lot of money by just shutting down
>>the military.
>
>I have always thought so.  It is one of my dreams.  Imagine, a world without
>conflict.

        Wrong logic, Joe.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:29 AM 2/28/97 -0800, Istvan Szabolczy wrote:
>   Hello Fellow Hungarians,
>
>   This is my first attempt to have a say in this domain.

        First of all. Welcome. I think you will like this group.

>   As a former 56-er, I look forward with great anticipation to the date when
>Hungary will become a member of NATO and the EC.

        So do I.

>   Back, in 57, when I came to Canada, I thought that shortly other
>countries will also rise up against the Russian imperialism. As the years
>passed, this hope has faded. After the spring of Prague in 68, I gave up
>hope entirely, that I will live as long as Hungary will get rid of the
>Russians.

        My feelings were exactly the same, even only a couple of years
before the "change of regime." A Hungarian couple came to visit one day
about two years before the collapse of the Soviet empire and as they were
leaving the husband turned to me and said: "Eva, I bet that within a very
short time the Russian Empire will be gone." You imagine what I said.

>   I cannot second-guess the present Hungarian government's informations and
>choices for actions within the given elbow room, but I trust it does what
it can
>to assure law and order, peace and security for the country.

        As far as this government is concerned it works very hard toward
admission to NATO and the European Union. Although i can criticize this
government for many things, I cannot complain their foreign policy or their
determination in getting a military umbrella over Hungary.
        I am not so sure about the views of certain opposition parties, most
importantly, Jozsef Torgyan's Smallholders Party, which at the moment is
leading at the polls.
        And by the way, I assume you are familiar with all the Internet
services from Hungary which allows us to follow daily events as they happen.
If not, please, write to me.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Eva;we have our choices.Meaning if we Canadians would like to have the
American healthcare system,we could force the Governement to forget about
Canadian healthcare,and change it to the American one
God forbid,and I can assure you we are quite happy with our system.
It is nice to go to the doctor,complain about a cold,but at the same time it
might be a more serious sickness.So we don't have to vorry about Xray,blood
test,etc,neither to be referred to a specialist.All this does not effectivly
coat us a cent.
OK,you are right we pay for it,but we do not mind to do so.Yes there are
waiting periouds,(I have to wait for my hip replacement),but this is not
life threatening.I had my shouldser operation,within a month,and been kicked
out after one day,inculding surgery,from the hospital.Metter of fact I was
glad to come home,and start phisio therapy the following day,wich is also
paid for.
I ma glad you feel you left Canada just at the right time,but beileve me I
wouldn't change a country for a better healthcare,wich undoubtedly cost much
more.
In your case Eva,you might have already the old age security wich millions
of Americans have,not mentioning,that is also in trouble,but the Governemnet
does not dare to touch it.
So in conclusion Eva,you like your system,we like ours.Lets live it at
that,and I am still glad to be a Canadian.
Best regards:Andy.

On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Eva S. Balogh, on Re: About peasants, wintners, vs.
government, wrote:

> At 07:08 AM 2/28/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
> >At 09:02 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Janos Zsargo, wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >>        It may not be the whole society but most people try to get as much
> >>out of the system as possible. And the system is such that a lot can be
> >>milked out of it.
> >
> >Legally or illegally?
> >
> >It has been my experience that most people, the vast majority, live legally.
> >Most people will not cheat!  They will live by the rules.  Maybe your
> >coterie of friends are different.
>
>         Some legally and some illegally, as I mentioned the guidelines are
> lax. For example, when certain kind of disability you can still work
> legally. But some are paying off crooked doctors.
>
>         As to my dishonest "coterie of friends," I don't have friends on
> disability. As for your comment: it was pretty low.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my last comment.  However, it is not as
inflamatory as your comment that "most" Hungarians try and get as much out
of the system as they can.  "Most", in my book, is well over fifty per
cent.  And if more than fifty per cent abuse the system then you're
implying that Hungary is a nation of thieves and crooks.  And I don't buy
it.

Surely there are studies that show how many people tend to abuse any given
system or programme.  However, your propensity to always see the abuse is
ideologically based.  It makes me suspect that you're opposed to the
programmes or systems as much as you're opposed to the abuse.

Joe Szalai

And, unless I'm mistaken (which often happens;-) we call it a "Jerusalem
Artichoke" from the Italian "girasole" which refers to its habit of turning
its flower head to track the sun as it crosses the sky...

No relation, of course, to the other artichoke.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

>[Out of the approximately half a million smallholders only 13,229 admitted
>to any taxable income in 1995. This admitted taxable income was so low that
>on the average it involved only 68,000 Fts in taxes. However, since under
>110,000 Fts they didn't have to pay taxes, the great majority paid not a
>penny. In comparison, as of December 31, 1995, individual farmers had in
>ther possession approximately 25 percent of Hungary five million cows, half
>of the country's five million pigs, 75 percent of all sheep and 60 percent
>of 31 million chickens.]

There is one little problem with this comparision. The cows, pigs, sheeps, etc
are investment for these smallholders and not necessarily making profit. In
other words one can own the entire General Motors, but if it is producing
deficit instead of profit, the owner might end up with negative income.
(I do not know whether the GM makes profit or not, this was just an example
and has nothing to do with the reality!)

If you, Eva, or your friend could provide a statistics about how many
luxury goods owned by these smallholders (like: expensive cars, houses),
that would be more informative.

J.Zs

Dear Colleagues,

The American magazine "The Nation" devotes a full five(5) pages in its March
10 issue to the Danube lawsuit. It quotes our web-page and fully supports our
position.

Please try to give maximum exposure to this excellent "resource."

I am particularly asking our European friends to distribute this outstanding
material in Europe, where interest in this precedent setting  first
international environmental lawsuit is sadly lacking.

Please also thank Mark Schapiro for the fine job he did in writing it. Mark's
e-mail address is:  

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

The American magazine "The Nation" devotes a full five(5) pages in its March
10 issue to the Danube lawsuit. It quotes our web-page and fully supports our
position.

Please try to give maximum exposure to this excellent "resource."

I am particularly asking our European friends to distribute this outstanding
material in Europe, where interest in this precedent setting  first
international environmental lawsuit is sadly lacking.

Please also thank Mark Schapiro for the fine job he did in writing it. Mark's
e-mail address is:  

Best regards: Bela Liptak

MEGJEGYZES: Az elkovetkezo hetekben eleg gyakran, egy-ket naponkent fogok
jelentkezni a hagai Duna-per hireivel, azzal kapcsolatos akcio-felhivasokkal.
Ha Ont e tema nem erdekli, nagyon kerem ertesitsen, hogy levehessem errol a
listarol (a Magyar Kornyezetvedelmi Alap Duna-Listajarol), mert nem
szeretnenk senki postaladajaban hivatlan vendegek, felesleges teher lenni.


Tisztelt Honfitarsam!

Az Egyesult Allamokban megjeleno "The Nation" cimu hetilap ot(5!) teljes
oldalt szentel az "emberiseg elso kornyezetvedelmi perenek" es 100%-ban kiall
mellettunk.

A cikk hosszan idezi honlapunkat (http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm),
reszletesen ismerteti a "kilencek-koaliciojat" (a 9 nemzetkozi NGOk, kik
egyutt leptek fel a hagai birosagnal a magyar oldalon), s azok vezetoit,
vezetoinket, tehat elsosorban az amerikai National Heritage Institute vezeto
ugyvedjet, Michelle Leighton Schwartzot, a World Wide Fund for Nature osztrak
vezetojet, Alex Zinket es az International Rivers Network amerikai vezetojet,
Patrick McCully-t.

Nagyon kerem Europa-i baratainkat, hogy terjesszek ezt a fontos dokumentumot
(melyet honlapunkon keresztul is hozzaferhetove teszunk), ebresszek fel az
Europai media erdeklodeset. Ideje, hogy Europa is odafigyeljen legosibb, a
jegkorszak ota fentmaradt termeszeti kincsenek, s Szigetkoznek sorsara.

Kerem azt is, hogy koszonjuk meg Mark-nak azt a fantasztikus munkat,
igyekezetet, amit e kituno cikk megirasaba es megjelentetesebe fektetett.
Tudom nagy hatassal lesz az amerikai kozvelemenyre ez az iras, tudom, hogy
nem ez az utolso cikk amit o az elkovetkezo hetekben megir meg.

Mark cime: 

Liptak Bela

E.Balogh wrote:

>You are, I am sure, were terribly upset with the SZDSZ and the MSZP--then in
>opposition--which took advantage of the blockade of the cab drivers to their
>own political advantage. Today, the opposition parties are "sponsoring" the
>farmers' blockade. I bet today you are not upset with the Smallholders or
>the Christian Democrats, or other opposition parties because they are behind
>the farmers. I personally don't think that the farmers' cause is just as I
>don't think that the cab drivers' cause was just. You, however, think that
>the farmers' cause is fully justified, I suspect, because you don't
>particularly like this government.

I guess you are right here. The political parties are always using such
occasions to gain popularity. Also, I am suspecious to any kind of strike
in Hungary. I am not able to tell anymore what is rightful demand and what
is 'szocialista csokeveny'.

>So, for Pete's sake, try, just try a bit
>to be more objective and even-handed.

You tell this, Eva! On some certain subjects you are so far away from
being objective and even-handed 'mint Makko Jeruzsalemtol'.

J.Zs

At 03:01 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I'm sorry if you didn't like my last comment.  However, it is not as
>inflamatory as your comment that "most" Hungarians try and get as much out
>of the system as they can.  "Most", in my book, is well over fifty per
>cent.  And if more than fifty per cent abuse the system then you're
>implying that Hungary is a nation of thieves and crooks.  And I don't buy
>it.

        You don't buy it, because it goes against your worldview. But the
fact is that Hungarian public morality is very, very low. You have no idea
how low. It is not their fault. It is the fault of history in the last fifty
years. When everything belongs to everybody, nothing belongs to anybody. So,
one can steal to one's heart's content. And they did. Add to this that the
bureaucracy was such (and still is) that honestly practically nothing is
achievable. You have to lie. And they do. And when it comes to income tax,
they are especially hate giving money to the state. They only like getting
it. I am going to repeat it again, Joe: 500,000 people are on disability
payments in Hungary out of the working force of about 4 million!! Do you
honestly think that they are all disabled?
        Corruption in general, from top to bottom, is extremely widespread.
Number of crimes, violent and otherwise, are also extremely high. All in
all, the situation is pretty grim. And to pretend otherwise would be
foolish. (By the way, you may have noticed that both Ferenc Novak and Gyorgy
Kadar had to admit that the charge of making wine is not "totally" untrue.
That means, coming from them, that they know as well as I do that the
practice is extremely widespread. Otherwise, they would deny it outright.)

        Moreover, knowing your political views you would give away the last
pots and pans of the country to some of the "downtrodden" of the world,
desering or not. But you know that people who must provide might not like
the idea of providing for every no-good, including wife beaters, alcoholics,
drug addicts, burglers, rapists, and so on and so forth. There is a limit to
honest working people's patience.

        And now you can go and tell that Eva Balogh is a heartles creature.

        Eva Balogh

At 06:02 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>You are, I am sure, were terribly upset with the SZDSZ and the MSZP--then in
>>opposition--which took advantage of the blockade of the cab drivers to their
>>own political advantage. Today, the opposition parties are "sponsoring" the
>>farmers' blockade. I bet today you are not upset with the Smallholders or
>>the Christian Democrats, or other opposition parties because they are behind
>>the farmers. I personally don't think that the farmers' cause is just as I
>>don't think that the cab drivers' cause was just. You, however, think that
>>the farmers' cause is fully justified, I suspect, because you don't
>>particularly like this government.
>
>I guess you are right here.

        Oh, my God! I'll drop dead right here! Am I right?

>>So, for Pete's sake, try, just try a bit
>>to be more objective and even-handed.
>
>You tell this, Eva! On some certain subjects you are so far away from
>being objective and even-handed 'mint Makko Jeruzsalemtol'.

        Well, I think I am more even-handed than most of my opponents. I
quite often admit that they are right about this or that. They never! Just
wait, until we hear from Gyorgy Kadar on taxi drivers versus farmers!!

        I don't really have serious attachment to any party. I am simply
looking at the Hungarian scene from the point of view of someone who has
lived in North America for forty odd years and who is convinced that Hungary
must follow our path in economic terms. Not the European model, which is in
big trouble at the moment, but preferably the American model. You may not
agree but that's how I feel. Second, I am very much against nationalism as I
said over and over and over again. I am very much for NATO and very much for
the European Union (and nationalism of the East-European kind and European
Union don't mix).

        And yes, I don't see much difference between the cab drivers and the
wine growers or the political support they are getting.

        Eva Balogh

>E.Balogh wrote:

        No, Eva Balogh didn't write this. Eva Balogh simply translated it.
>
>>[Out of the approximately half a million smallholders only 13,229 admitted
>>to any taxable income in 1995. This admitted taxable income was so low that
>>on the average it involved only 68,000 Fts in taxes. However, since under
>>110,000 Fts they didn't have to pay taxes, the great majority paid not a
>>penny. In comparison, as of December 31, 1995, individual farmers had in
>>ther possession approximately 25 percent of Hungary five million cows, half
>>of the country's five million pigs, 75 percent of all sheep and 60 percent
>>of 31 million chickens.]
>
>There is one little problem with this comparision. The cows, pigs, sheeps, etc
>are investment for these smallholders and not necessarily making profit. In
>other words one can own the entire General Motors, but if it is producing
>deficit instead of profit, the owner might end up with negative income.
>(I do not know whether the GM makes profit or not, this was just an example
>and has nothing to do with the reality!)

        What you sound theoretically might be all right but I just can't
imagine that it is so. You know what. I just received the latest statistical
yearbok of the Central Statistical Office and I will try to collect some
figures for you.

        Eva Balogh

Andy, I don't think that you read my last letter on health care. The fact is
that you are wrong: healthcare is not free for you, just as Antiko explain,
and it is not free for me. I pay directly, you pay indirectly. That's the
only difference.

        Best, Eva

At 03:33 PM 2/28/97 EDT, Hugh Agnew wrote:

>And, unless I'm mistaken (which often happens;-) we call it a "Jerusalem
>Artichoke" from the Italian "girasole" which refers to its habit of turning
>its flower head to track the sun as it crosses the sky...
>
>No relation, of course, to the other artichoke.

Yes, you're right.  They are not related to the other artichoke.  In
Hungarian 'napraforgo' means, or at least refers to (and I may be wrong),
'turning to (toward?) the sun'.

What I'm not sure of now is, does 'girasole' refer to sunflower or to
Jerusalem Artichoke?  My limited knowledge of Italian tells me that it would
refer to 'sunflower'.

Joe Szalai

 on Feb 27 16:54:46 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #927:

>At 12:27 PM 2/27/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote, quoting me:
>
 on Feb 26 07:27:48 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #926:
>>
>>>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>>>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.
>>>I know because around Pecs
>>>everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few where the owners don't
>>>even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney. It tastes like it too.
>>
>>Now, Eva is lucky she is not famous, or else she might have a dandy of a
>>lawsuit on her hands.  Because in effect she slanders all of the vintners
in
>>Hungary.  But, fortunately for her, her opinions on wine don't carry much
>>weight anywhere.
>
>        We are getting ugly, aren't we, Mr. Novak.

I don't know, Eva, speak for yourself.  I have been told I was not bad
looking for my age ;-)

>Plus Mr. Novak is not
>very careful when it comes to reading other people's text. (1) I didn't say
>that all wine-makers make phoney wine but the ones I talked to;

Unfortunately, not quite true.  This is what you said:

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

Since your visits to Hungary are admittedly infrequent (and, -- here I am
paraphrasing you -- fortunately so, as you recently said either here or on
another list), much of your information must be, by necessity, second-hand.
 So it is with most of us who don't live in Hungary.  So you should be more
careful when you say something that is so potentially damaging.

>(2) slander
>means (I) the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame
>and damage another's reputation; (II) a false and defamatory oral statement
>about a person.

OK, I should say libel, since your unsubstantiated statements were not oral

>And here is where we have a little trouble with Mr. Novak's lines.

Again, who are "we"?

>First, slander is only "false charges," not charges which are true
>and to which I can testify.

Just keep in mind that your testimony doesn't necessarily mean it's true; you
also have to have proof.  Anecdotal statements about your friends,
acquaintances or relatives don't constitute proof.

> Second, I didn't name names. And third, I didn't
>talk about all wine makers of Hungary. Just some.

OK, let's see it again:

>the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
>sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace.

I will leave the definition of "commonplace" for you as an exercise.

>>Not that she is TOTALLY wrong.  In SOME (maybe several ;-)) cases farmers
--
>>though not serious vintners -- do add sugar to their grapes to increase the
>>alcohol content of their wines.  This doctoring of the wine is frowned upon
>>by serious winemakers and is practiced mainly in areas not naturally suited
>>to the growing of high quality wine grapes.  The wines of such regions are
of
>>pretty poor quality, with or without enhancement.

>        But these guys who were blockading roads are not "serious vintners"
>as Mr. Novak would like to call them.
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Where did I?

            <snip>

>And, yes,
>they doctor their wines quite openly. One hobby wine grower made me taste

I thought we were talking about farmers...

>And he votes for the Christian Democrats. So, you would like him.

Now, Eva, you've been snooping!  No fair!  :-(

>        Are you saying that I am lying? I am not the lying sort.
>        Eva Balogh

I'll take your word for that ;-)

Ferenc

At 08:02 PM 2/28/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Andy, I don't think that you read my last letter on health care. The fact
>is that you are wrong: healthcare is not free for you, just as Antiko
>explain, and it is not free for me. I pay directly, you pay indirectly.
>That's the only difference.

No Eva.  Andy is right and you are wrong.  Andy is a pensioner and
pensioners don't pay a penny for health care.  Now, if Andy was living in
the United States, and he didn't have private coverage, would he have the
same access to health care as he does in Canada?  I don't think so.  So
there's more of a difference than you'd like to believe.  Also, in Canada,
everyone has the same equal access to health care.  I believe we're more
compassionate toward each other than Americans are.  And I want to keep it
that way.

Joe Szalai

It's not enough to be Hungarian; you must have talent too.
                -- Alexander Korda

Lectoris Salutem!
        I did not want to move anybody...
        The constant repetition of the number 1 millio HUF, 1.5 million
HUF, 6000 US$, 8500 US$ urged me to draw the attention to the fact, that
in the agriculture a private owner of a piece of land works and pays all
kinds of goods and services without income during the year in order to
arrive to the harvest, when the profit comes in a very short period, and
according to official figures accepted even by the government the profit
of the whole year efforts is at most 15% of the gross income.
        I do not know, you people in the West know better, how is the
taxation of a merchant, who sells a good for 6000 US$ which was delivered
for him for 5100 US$ (or 8500 US$ income against 7225 US$ cost, or 1
million HUF income against 850 thousand HUF cost or 1,5 million HUF income
against 1,275 million HUF cost).
        My point was made only against this unfair picture. I do not want
to avoid fair taxation, or to support the avoidance of it by others.
        Istenvelunk...                  Kadargyorgy