On Wed, 11 Oct 1995  wrote:

> In article > you write:
> >FYI:
> >George Stirling has published his article with the help of the 
> >UMCP Hungarian American Association. The address -  
> >- is the address of the association and, therefore, is also read by 
> >other HAA staff members. 
> 
> So he does not have his own e-mail address yet?  Too bad, because he is
> an old aquaintence of mine and I was hoping to renew it by e-mail.
> 
> Joe

Joe, not yet.
We get his articles on discs and then return the replies to him in 
printed format. Hopefully he will upgrade and you can renew your 
connection with Gyuri. This is the reason why I asked you not to 
send personal messages to the Hungaria address. You will be able to leave 
messages for him on the FMH homepage, too, as soon as I we are
ready with it - http//mineral.umd.edu/fmh/
Take care,
Gotthard
--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

I met Peter Toth in Germany in 1976/1977.  He planned to work in
Germany long enough to buy a taxicab and return to Hungary.  He was a
weight lifter and looked pretty strong.  If you know him please help
me contact him.   I owe him money but never had chance to pay him back

Please email me if you can help.  (ps  please use english)

Where Have The Angels Gone
by
William Redding
    Chapter 1	

Telegram No. 634...Aug. 15, 1914
To the governors of all the provinces
in Turkey....Make haste in the confis-
action of all weapons in the possess-
ion of non-Moslems...it is suspected
that all non-Moslems will cooperate
with the enemies of Turkey and 
Germany...from Talaat Pasha...Minster
of the interior.
	
	On the dusty, dirt packed, main intersection of the village of
Tomarza, Turkey, several horses pranced in a wide circle. The forty
laughing horsemen wore the red fez of the Turkish gendarmes.
	In front of the domed church located on a corner, men and women
in drab clothing huddled together. They watched a mounted Turkish
officer, wearing a white uniform, in the center of the circle crack a
long whip.
	As the tip of the whip cracked in the air, it created a circle of
dust. Dust that was as common as the sun in this village on the brim of
the great Anatolian plateau in central Turkey
	The officer moved his horse through the circle of moving horses
and stopped in front of the church where most of the townsfolk had
gathered. "I'll ask you one more time!" the officer shouted. "Where are
the guns hidden?"

	The frightened crowd of Armenians stared up at the tall, lean,
muscular officer. Under his curly black hair, dark eyes set atop high
cheek bones.  The dark skin of his face sported a neatly trimmed
goatee.
	As gendarmes rode around the village ordering residents to gather
in front of the church, the crowd grew larger. The sun-baked, stone
church was the largest building in the village of one and two story
buildings with fla
t roofs.
	When the Turkish officer raised his left arm, the gendarmes
stopped. The Turkish officer snapped his fingers and pointed to a man
with a peppered gray mustache standing on the top step to the entrance
of the domed church
 
	Two gendarmes ran up the steps, seized the man, and dragged him
down the church steps. His shoes plowed a double line in the dirt
street as they pulled him to a post holding up the porch roof of a
market across from the 
church. They tied the man with his arms behind him and around the post.
	"What is your name, old man?" the Turkish officer demanded.
	"Monkarian. Hagop Monkarian," the old man replied.
	Suddenly,  a young man burst through the crowd and struggled with
the gendarmes. "That’s my father!” Two more gendarmes jumped from their
horses and helped wrestle the young man to the ground. 
	"... and that is my son, Sarkis," Hagop Monkarian said.
	"Dashnaks? Any Dashnaks? Where are the Dashnaks hiding in this
village?” the officer shouted at Hagop Monkarian.
	"No! None! There’re no politicians here" Hagop Monkarian responded.
"We do not bother ourselves with politics. We’re simple farmers and
tradesmen."
	The Turkish officer rode his horse from the inside of the circle to
the outside and stopped in front of  Hagop Monkarian. Reaching down
from the back of his horse, the officer slapped Hagop across his face
with the flat 
side of a scimitar. "I am Zeki Bey. You address me as Zeki Bey, the
distinguished Bey."
	"Of course." As he pushed back against the post, sweat poured down
Hagop's face. "Of course. Zeki Bey, distinguished Bey."
 	"Tell me old man," the officer said. "Where have you people hid
your guns? Turkey is at war with the British and French and we need all
the guns."
	"We have no guns left," Hagop answered. "We gave them all to your
men when they were here last month and the month before. Zeki Bey,
distinguished Bey."
	The officer snapped his fingers and pointed at Sarkis, then at the
pole holding up the other end of the porch roof. The gendarmes dragged
the struggling Sarkis to the porch and tied him to the post.
	The officer dismounted and strutted over to Sarkis, drew his
scimitar again and held it tightly to the young man's throat where it
drew droplets of blood. The obstinate boy stared through narrow eyes
into the deep set, b
rown eyes of Zeki.
	Zeki backed away from Sarkis, turned and walked over to Hagop. "If
you have no guns, then kiss my feet."
	Three women ran from the crowd toward the man tied to the post: an
older woman, two younger women, one of whom was pregnant. The gendarmes
seized the women and awaited further orders.
	“Your family?” Zeki smiled.
	Hagop Monkarian looked at his wife and daughters, then over at
Sarkis. Hagop bent his knees, his arms sliding down the pole behind
him. He tipped his head forward and kissed the dusty boots of Zeki Bey.
	"Ahhh. You Christians all lie. I know you have guns hidden." Zeki
stepped back from the kneeling Hagop. 
	"No, it is the truth." Hagop struggled back to his feet. "Bey. Zeki
Bey, distinguished Bey."
	Zeki walked over to Sarkis and looked at the boy again. They were
the same size about six feet. Zeki stared straight into the eyes of the
boy. "Your name!" Zeki demanded.
	There was no movement in Sarkis' eyes. Zeki slapped Sarkis across
the face with the scimitar. The flat side of the scimitar drew no
blood, but Sarkis’ muscular, sinewy body tightened beneath the cotton
shirt and baggy pa
nts.
	"His name is Sarkis Monkarian." Hagop shouted from the other post.
	"You’ll kiss my feet like your father did," Zeki shouted into the
face of Sarkis. 
 	As he grit his teeth, the muscles in front of Sarkis’ ear lobes
tightened
	"My feet!" Zeki hollered. "You Christian pig."
	Sarkis stood straight.
	"You will beg to kiss my feet." The officer smiled.
	As he leaped onto his horse, Zeki waved the scimitar over his head
in a circular motion. The horsemen still on their horses began trotting
them in a large circle around the three women. Zeki rode to the inside
the circle
, then jumped from his horse and ripped the clothes from the youngest
daughter, Sevanna, whom he then shoved to the hardened street. 
	As Zeki began unbuttoning his pants, Mother Monkarian broke away
from one of the gendarmes and ran to her Sevanna, dropped to her knees
and hugged the frightened girl.
					<>

	From outside the circle of horses, it was difficult to see what was
happening. The trotting horses created a thick dust curtain that
blurred the activity inside the circle. Sarkis, hearing his mother
scream, slid to his 
knees and leaned forward trying to see under the horses' bellies.
	He saw Zeki walk to the gendarme holding his holster and belt, and
removed an automatic pistol from the holster. He watched Zeki walk over
to Mother Monkarian, raise the pistol and shoot her through the head.
Sarkis saw 
his mother bolt backwards onto the ground.
	"Nooooo!" Sarkis screamed and with all his strength pulled on the
ropes. He dropped to his knees, and through a clear spot in the dust
curtain he saw the shadowed image of Zeki raping his twin sister
Sevanna. "I will kis
s you feet!" He screamed. "I will kiss your feet. Please! Please!"
  	Zeki held the handle of the scimitar with one hand and the other
hand held the blade tip with the center of the blade across Sevanna’s.
	Sarkis screams were drowned by the cheers of the gendarmes and
cries of the people. Zeki’s hands stiffened downward, partially
severing the head of Sarkis Monkarian's twin sister Sevanna.
	Sarkis screamed in a maddened rage, sweat poured from his straining
body, he pulled against the rope, the hemp rubbed his skin raw.
	Through another clear spot in the dust cloud, he saw Zeki jump to
his feet, pull his pants up with his left hand, and hold the blood
dripping scimitar with his right hand. 	Sarkis screamed, ”Please!
Don’t!” 
	He watched Zeki burst through the circle of horses and dash to
Hagop Monkarian and decapitate him. 
	As Hagop’s toppled head collected a coating of dust, Sarkis’s
screams muffled the crowds crying and praying..
	Sarkis screamed at Zeki. "No! No! I’ll kiss your feet! Please! No
more! God help us!"
	The crowd screamed. Turkish gendarmes shouted, and the horses
balked.
					<>

	While captured in a sadistic sexual frenzy, Zeki screamed a scream
of triumphant Mongol machismo, he ran to the pregnant girlj, Jarmilla, 
who was on the ground hugging the body of her mother. With his left
hand he turne
d Jarmilla over, and sliced open the stomach of the screaming pregnant
girl with his scimitar.  From the bloodied womb, he yanked out the
fetus, and with his scimitar cut the umbilical cord, then threw the
fetus toward th
e screaming Sarkis. 
				
					<>

	The fetus landed on the ground and rolled, blood coagulating with
dust as the gray ball cane to rest a few feet in front of Sarkis. 
	Sarkis, on his knees, strained and screamed a scream that far
surpassed the entire  orchestration.
	From under the planks of a storefront porch, a four-year old,
dark-skinned boy ran toward the circle of hoofs crying "Mama! Mama!"
	Zeki raced his horse to the boy reached down and gathered the boy
by an arm. Then he rode over to Sarkis. "Your little brother,
Monkarian?"
	"Yes! Yes!" Sarkis cried. "Don't hurt, my brother, Gregory. Don't
hurt anyone else, I'll take you to the guns. I'll kiss your feet?"
	After dismounting, Zeki handed the boy to a gendarme. "Get up you
miserable Christian. You’ll be my ultimate example, Monkarian. You’ll
take me to the guns. Then tomorrow before I hang you, you’ll kiss my
feet in front o
f the people of this village."

					<>

	With his hands tied in front, and his feet tied with a 
rope that went under the donkey, Sarkis lead Zeki Bey and 
the gendarmes along winding trails up into the mountains where he and
some other young men had hidden 
guns a month ago. They rode between large boulders with rocks and slate
underfoot past small canyons and along trails with sheer drops. There
were few trees but some underbrush.
	Zeki whipped the donkey’s rump to get it to hurry. At times the
whip would slide up over the rump and strike Gregory, who was riding
behind Sarkis.
	Sarkis’ mother bolting back from the gunshot, his sister being
raped, his other sister's stomach being split open, the fetus flying
through the air and his father's head in the dust kept flashing through
his mind. The im
ages raced, then slowed down, he’d blink his eyes but they wouldn’t go
away. 
	He should have kissed Zeki's feet. Why didn't he kiss the pig's
feet? Why had he been so proud? He’d let his pride cost him his family.
The anguish felt like claws ripping at his heart. There was no end to
the pain.
	The donkey jumped as the whip cracked again, hitting and wrapping
around Sarkis and Gregory. Sarkis couldn’t hear Gregory's cry, but he
felt it Gregory’s muffled.
	"Move! You pig on an ass!"
	Sarkis shook his head and tried to erase the pictures  of his
mother, father and sisters dying. The screaming of his sisters
continually pierced his mind.
	Sarkis felt his little brother hold on tightly, except when he fell
asleep, then Sarkis would jostle the boy to wake him. It was during
those fleeting moments while caring for Gregory, that those horrible
pictures escape
d his mind.
	During the twisting ride around low mountains bordering the Taurus
mountain range they passed four caves. The caves looked natural, but
they were all man made, some a thousand years old, some only a few
hundred years old
 Armenians hiding from persecution throughout the centuries had dug
the caves. Sarkis' brother KIrk and he had explored many of them. Many
had been homes with kitchens, pantries and bedrooms. In one cave they
never found
 the end, because they were too afraid to go further.
	Sarkis imagined he saw the shadow of a man in the last cave. Maybe
it was a Kurdish bandit in hiding. Maybe it was the legendary Chelloe
-- the Armenian Robin Hood. If it was Chelloe and his outlaw band,
they’d come and 
free Gregory and him from these Turks. If Chelloe freed his hands,
Sarkis would kill the Turk leader, the one known as Zeki Bey.
	Crack! Zeki's whip tore across Sarkis' chest, abruptly waking him
from his trance. Adrenaline crashed through his body for the hundredth
time this day, followed by the surge of hared for the man who struck
him. 
	"Which direction now, you infidel bastard?"
	They'd descended to a small rocky canyon. "That big rock there."
Sarkis pointed to a large rock about three feet across resting in front
of a cave. "Just walk behind the rock."
	Zeki barked commands, and six of the two dozen gendarmes jumped
from their houses. Hunching over, they  entered the cave behind the
rock. In less then a minute they exited, one with three muzzle loading
rifles. a J. Rigb
y .45 caliber, originally from Ireland,  a Billinghurst .45 caliber,
and an N. Lewis .45 caliber, the latter two from America. Two other
gendarmes exited the cave with a .45 caliber bullet mold and two empty
powder flasks
 There were three percussion pistols: a Belgium Pirloy ET Fresart, a
Lang, and a Beaumont Adams.
	“No lead nor powder,” one of the gendarmes said.
	Upon seeing the old weapons, the gendarmes laughed. Sarkis stared
at them with hate that burned his soul.

					<>

	Zeki lead them on a different route back to Tomarza by way of
Taltan a small Kurdish village located in a valley between a triangle
of three foothills at the base of mountain Taltan Dagh. The village
comprised about seve
nty-five, one-story, sun-baked brick house, and about fifty tents. Most
of these Kurds spent the winter in a warm valley near the Lebanon
mountains.
	Zeki, and his brother Zade, rode at the front of his double column
of gendarmes.
	“These Kurds don’t like us.”  The powerfully built Zade rode
somewhat ahead of his brother as a gesture of protection.
	“I see the hate in their eyes my brother.” Zeki scanned the
compound they were entering. “We better be cautious.” 
	An older man walked from a hut and blocked their path. Agha
Yossouf, the leader of this Kurdish tribe, stood motionless and unmoved
by the presence of Zeki Bey. He stared at Zeki from a rough furrowed
face with a saber s
car across his chin. Blond ringlets hung from under his woolen turban. 
“I am Agha Yossouf,” he said in Turkish.
	“We aren’t here to collect taxes.” Zeki knew that would ease their
minds. “We need food for our mid-day meal.”
	“Zeki,” Zade whispered as they were dismounting. “I see many guns.”
	“Never fear, brother, we’re all Moslems.” Zeki pointed to a tree at
the edge of the compound. “Hang the Christian pig by his feet from that
tree, and let his head rest against the ground, so the ants can have a
meal also
”
	“The little one?” Zade asked.
	“Have a guard hold him with a rope.”
	An hour later, as Zeki and the gendarmes were preparing to leave,
Agha Yossouf pointed to Gregory and said to Zeki, “The little one.”
	 "Your hospitality is good, Agha Yossouf. May I pay you with this
young boy," Zeki said. 
	A guard handed the tearful Gregory to Agha Yossouf,  who handed the
child to a young woman behind him.
	The Agha then pointed to Sarkis. 
	"We are taking him back to his village, where he’ll hang in the
morning. We’ll teach the Christians never again to lie to their Moslem
superiors."
	Sarkis walked back to Tomarza, tied behind the donkey that now
carried the ancient weapons.

					<>

	While bound to the pole where his father died, Sarkis leaned
forward and watched his tears drop into his father’s dried blood. He
raised his eyes and stared at the center of  the horse trodden circle
where his mother and
 sisters died. He turned his head to stare at the spot where the fetus
of his first niece or nephew rolled in the dust.
	“Momma, Papa, Momma, Papa what have I done to you?” The tears
burned his cheeks. 
	The scream of a girl in the distant darkness woke him to the world.
 
	After they had arrived back in Tomarza with the weapons, Sarkis
heard Zeki demand dinner at the home of Dr. Gasparian, owner of the
largest house in the village. 
	Sarkis knew the doctor would serve the best food  and plenty of
wine hoping the Turks would sleep then be on their way in the morning.
	Late into the night, he heard the laughing and screaming. Sarkis
saw the gendarmes chasing young girls. His struggles against the bonds
made his wrists and arms sore and chaffed. Incessant visions of horror
penetrated hi
s head. 
	Suddenly, he felt the cold blade of a knife against his forearm
just before the blade cut the rope that bound his wrists. The blade
then cut the bonds securing his ankles together. "Quickly, come with
me,” said Tari Kash
ian, a neighbor girl, as she helped him to his feet. He noticed her 
mussed hair, bruised face and torn clothes. 
	“They hurt you too?” Sarkis said.
	“But I got away.”
	As he stomped the cramps from his legs, Sarkis followed Tari behind
a couple of houses to a horse tethered to a well post. The half moon
spiked some light over the edge of a cloud. Tari pointed to the horse
and handed hi
m the knife. Then she ran off into the darkness.
	On his sore, bare feet, Sarkis limped in the shadows past a high,
stone fence when he heard a soft cry. He hesitated, and heard the cry
again on the other side of the stone fence. After climbing a pile of
wood, he looked
 over the fence into a small courtyard behind Barsamian's Cobbler Shop.
	A snoring, bearded gendarme, with no pants on, was lying on the
hard packed earth. His hand gripped the ankle of the teenage daughter
of Mr. Barsamian.
	After Sarkis climbed over the fence, the girl hid her sobbing face
in her hands as if trying to conceal her nudity. Sarkis recognized the
burly gendarme as the one who held his mother while Zeki killed her. 
	In a rage, he leaped upon the sleeping gendarme, swung the knife,
and sliced the gendarme’s throat. The gendarme violently shook for a
few seconds, and the young girl screamed from the spasmodic grip on her
ankle. 
	With both hands, Sarkis plunged the knife into the gendarme’s heart
and held it there until he became motionless. Sarkis freed the sobbing
girl's ankle and pointed for her to run.
	As Sarkis rose to leave, he looked at both his hands and saw the
blood, then the bloody images of his father’s head and the rolling
fetus enraged him. 
	In a frenzy, Sarkis turned back to the dead gendarme and began
cutting and hacking at the gendarme’s neck. Skin, blood and sinew flew
into the dust. “I hate you! I hate you!” Sarkis kept hacking. “Suffer!
Suffer! Suffer!
 I hate you! I hate you!”  He couldn't sever the neck bone, so he
dropped the knife, grabbed the gendarme’s hair, and tried yanking the
head from its shoulders. He picked up the knife again, but still he
couldn’t sever th
e head from the body and in his rage, chopped, sliced, stabbed and
pulled at the bloody head. Blood splattered over Sarkis' face, chest
and torn clothing. He cried. He screamed. He wanted to throw the head
into the street
 where is father, mother and sisters had died, but he couldn't force
the head loose.
	In desperation, he kicked the head, but he only pained his foot as
the head whipped from side to side. Then he heard another gendarme
calling a name from the front of the house. 
	“Zade! Zade! It’s Namik. Where are you?”
	Sarkis pulled a boot off the dead man, after learning that it fit,
he took the other one. He seized the pistol, belt and bandoleer that
hung from the stub of a tree limb. He started to leave, stopped, then
limped back to
 the dead man and with his booted foot kicked with all his might --
still the head didn’t come loose. He heard the front gate rattle.
	“Zade, Zade, where are you?”
	Sarkis quickly crawled over the stone fence, ran to the well and
untied the horse. Sarkis lead the gray Shagya Arabian through
backyards, between houses, until he reached the nearby outskirts of
Tomarza.
	He slapped the gunbelt around his hips, and looked at the pistol, a
Browning FN model 1903, 9mm. He then slipped the two bandoleers of
7.92mm Mauzer rifle bullets over his shoulders. A German Mauzer rifle
rested in the s
addle scabbard.
	He mounted the Shagya and rode up a small hill and looked back down
at the village. Tears flowed down his face. He pulled the Mauzer from
its scabbard, checked the breech, then fired three shots into the quiet
moonlit ni
ght.

This letter recently was distributed to parishoners:
Inquire by phone or letter regarding raffle booklets & availability!!! 

St. Stephen King of Hungary Church
Rev. Joseph Somos, pastor
2015 W. Augusta Blvd.
Chicago, IL 60622
Phone: (312)486-1896

My  Dear Friends,

A whole year is behind us again as we are in preparation for the new
Elizabeth-Catherine day festival.  It is an old tradition that we have
a special Raffle on this day for the benefit of our parish.

Our yearly collections and voluntary donations do not cover more than
half of our expenses.  To survive, and take care of the maintenance of
this over ninety-year-old building, we have to reach out toward you, our
beloved Parishoners, for special support.  In exchange of your generosity,
we do not ask this as a simple donation.  We try to be playful and give you
a chance to be a winner of $500.00 as our first prize.  This sum is still
a sizable amount even today.  Being convinced that only one of you will be
the lucky one who will win, my conviction is that all participants know
very well, that the collected donation goes to a good purpose.  We have to
change the roof of the church building for over $23,000.00.  Your generous
participation in this Raffle will make it possible.  You know by your own
experience that it is not easy to buy something.  The maintenance is an
expensive game.  We survive as we did in the past by the generosity of many
good people like you.  

Nobody knows what the future holds what the future holds for us.  As long as
we exist, we as member of this community, try to do our best to keep this
church open.  The attendance is decreasing.  Every year more weight falls
on those shoulders you are still with the church.  We do our best as much
as the good Lord allows us to do and as far as He allows us to go.  In this
hope I write you this letter.  Your participation in this project is
essential.

The winner need not be present.  Mark your name and phone or address and we
will notify you if the smile of fortune shines on you.

With warm greetings and best wishes:
Fr. Joseph
Chicago, September 15, 1995

Make all charitible contributions payable to:
St. Stephen King of Hungary Church.

Send to:
St Stephen King of Hungary Church
2015 W. Augusta Blvd.
Chicago, IL 60622

5 ) wrote:
: In article >,  (Alexander Bossy) write
s:
: |> 5 ) wrote:
: |> : In article >,  (Alexander Bossy) 
writes:

: |> 	"It is worth mentioning that all these Roumanian High schools 
: |> were theological academies.  All the Roumanian schools, without 
: |> exception, were denominational.  When a State school was founded in a 
: |> minority district, it was always purely Magyar."

: That may be true, but I know the high schools system in Transylvania and its 
: history pretty well and there was no state-sponsoresd Hungarian high school
: I know of there. So, it doesn't mean that I doubt Maccartney's pretty general
: statement, but I'd like to have one example (as town and a neme) so that if b
y
: any chance I don't know the school personally, I can go and did out some data
 
: on it.

	Hi Matyas:

	Your request is fair enough, but unfortunately i just don't have 
the resources here in the U.S. to satisfy it. My interpretation of 
Mcartney's paragraph, though, leads me to beleive that there were 
Hungarian-language state high schools because he specifically mentioned 
that there were no Romanian-language state high schools.

: I agree that probably "elementary" schools founded in that period by the
: Hungarian state were purely Hungarian, but still for thos e villages where
: there was a significant Romanian population Romanian language schools din
: function (supported by the church or the community I guess).

	Macartney is still less specific when it comes to primary 
schools, but what he says does seem to support what you are saying: "The 
Magyarization of primary schools...lagged behind, but even here...the 
non-Magyar schools dwindled steadily..."  His time reference for the 
above sentence was 1914, so I don't suspect that things changed much 
before the end of Hungarian rule.

: This however is 
: not as bad as what is currently going on: If in a village there is at least o
ne
: Romanian child (in the Szekely regions typically the children of the policeme
n)
: a class in Romanian has to be founded. More than that I've been in a small to
wn
: where a high schoo had to have a Romanian language class, although no Romania
n
: children registered.

	Here you have pointed out an obvious problem.  The national 
language is Romanian.  It can therefore be argued that anyone who wants 
to be taught in the national language should have the opportunity to do so.

: So the class ended up by being made uo completely of
: Hungarian kids, who except for homeworks, answering to questions and and exam
s
: didn't use Romanian at all... (I agree that this can be beneficial for them, 
but
: done "by force"?)

	But of course this takes it too far.  I agree with you that 
choice has to be a central concern.  I also agree that a 
Romanian-language education will probably be economically beneficial for 
the Hungarian students, but I don't think that it is the state's business 
to decide on utilitarian grounds whether students should be taught in one 
langauge or the other.  That is something that quite clearly belongs to 
the family (which is, after all, the place where the child learns how to 
speak in the first place).

: |> : explains why Hungarian-language high schools shouldn't be allowed to fun
ction in
: |> : Transylvanie, i.e. not to do to others what they did to you...
: |> 
: |> 	Quite the reverse.  Hungarian-language schools should be allowed 
: |> to function.  Not only that, but the Romanian state should support enough 
: |> Hungarian-language schools to fill the demand for them.  And that demand 
: |> should be determined by parents (and older students), not by the state.

: You see, it looks that simple. And I'm sure that thsi would have prevented ma
ny
: sad events of the last five years in the inter-ethnical relations in Transylv
ania
: (e.g. Marosvarashely/Targu Mures). I think that beyond the educational and so
me
: cultural problems (such as the theatres) the keyword is local autonomy, witho
ut 
: any reference to ethnicity/religion/race/..., with some laws on general human
 
: rights.

	Agreed.  I especially agree that the goal should be local, rather 
than ethnic, autonomy.  Local autonomy gives minorities the right to ru 
their own affairs.  It allows a region to shift polcies as its population 
shifts, and it avoids rising unsettling (and not very realistic) 
questions/fears of secession.

: |> :  But, when 
: |> : |> Hungarians demand educational rights today, I do believe that an 
: |> : |> acknowledgement that what happened last century was wrong would help.
  
: |> 
: |> : What do these two have to do with one another?
: |> 
: |> 	Because history remains very much alive not only in the Balkans, 
: |> but also in neighboring regions, like Transylvania.  To pretend that ethni
c 
: |> Romanians have, or will soon, forget what they see as "Hungarian 
: |> oppression" is shortsighted.  A better approach is to acknowledge the 
: |> wrong that happened last century, and make sure that similar wrongs do 
: |> not happen - or continue to happen - today.

: I must repeat that Romanians (not only yoy) must also acknowledge the wrong
: they did to Hungarians in Transylvania during the "Romanian oppression" ;-)
: (because we may see it as such as well...). On the other hand I don't think
: that asking for this kind of acknowledgements from either side is good, i.e.
: it only leads to dead ends (if you don't I won't either...)

	What I have really learned by following these threads is that we 
are taught very different versions of history.  I know that I was not 
brought up to think badly of Hungarians - so there was no overt attempt 
by my family to "indoctrinate" me with a Romanian nationalist version of 
history.  Most of the Hungarians that I have met on the net also seem to 
have no anti-Romanian indoctination.  Yet, we do have very different 
versions of history.  Even when people whom I know are well-meaning 
moderates post, they occassionally say things that make my skin crawl.  
The prime example of this is talking about the "Vienna decision" rather 
than the Vienna diktat.  I'm sure that there are things that I post that 
moderate Hungarians find as unsettling.  In neither case are the words 
posted in order to worsen ethnic relations.  But, among the 
ultranationalists at any rate, they do.  The only way that I can see to 
overcome this kind of a problem is to start learning more about what the 
other side remembers, fears, and feels.  While I don't think that the 
Romanian and the Hungarian versions of history will ever completely meld 
in many other cases, a synthesis is possible.  As we manage to fill in 
the forgotten (or conveniently ignored) parts of our history we can 
actually achieve the "historical reconciliation" that Iliescu now says he 
supports.

	Germany confronted its WWII history (a history far more difficult 
to confront than anything Hungarians or Romanians have to confront).  
Despite two world wars and genocide this century, their neighbors do not 
expect to be attacked by them again.  The historic feud with France has 
been patched up far better than the historic feud between France and 
England has been patched.  Conversely, Japan has failled to confront its 
WWII history.  Consequently, none of its neighbors trust it, nor like the 
Japanesse.  I think that the same kind of problem keeps 
Romanian-Hungarian relations less than friendly.  We don't know the same 
histories, and this lack of knowledge makes the otherside uneasy.  
Confronting our histories, and admitting that our side (even though it 
remains our side) was not always angelic, will help build the basic trust 
that is need for ethnic peace.

: I do care about it, but doesn't relate it in any way to Hungary as a state, o
r to
: the Hungarian government. For me the flag is the National flag, not in the
: sense it is used in English (and in Romanian), but as it is used in Hungarian
,
: i.e. a Nation (nemzet) as opposed to a state/country (orszag).

	Actually, the English word "nation" has both meanings.  I 
understand precisely what you mean.

: The same with
: the athem. I'm not the kind of person who would go out into the streets and 
: sing an athem or carry flags. However both of them are close to me. This is
: especially true for the flag.

	I understand what you mean.  While I am American, and the 
American flag is my flag, the Romanian and Swiss flags (I have a Swiss 
grandmother) also have an emotional meaning to me.  I can easily 
understand how you can have an emotional attachment to the Hungarian flag 
without being a Fifth Columnist.

: |> 	You are looking at it in reverse.  The Hungarian and Romanian 
: |> governments will both sign the treaty - but only WHEN things change for 
: |> Romania's Hungarian minority.

: Maybe they will (even without the WHEN) because they both want to be accepted
: in the European organozations, and at a certain point this may be more import
ant
: to them than playing their domestic policy cards. 

	Given that the European Parliament unanimously condemnd the new 
Romanian education law, I don't think that Romania would be accepted 
without some changes.  It's to bad that changes are necessary, but I 
think that Romania will be a better country because of the inevitable 
changes.

: !!! after all if killing "african Americans" was OK, why isn't it OK for them
: to kill white people? (is this the rationale?). I don't think so: times have
: changed... or at least should have.

	If progress was really as steady as we like to think it is, then 
we'd all be living in utopia.  Times don't change nearly as much as we 
pretend that they do.  The only major difference that I can see in the 
world of today compared of the world of the mid-19th Century is that 
slavery is substantially restricted to Africa, the Islamic World, and 
parts of the Orient, and is officially outlawed in every country.  For 
most peoples, the amount of personal freedom hasn't increased (and till 
the fall of the Soviet block, for all to many it had substantially 
decreased).  Not much possitive change.  :-(

: P.S. Sorry for the possible typos, but I typed this in a great hurry.

	Not to worry.  It isn't typos that stop me from posting in 
Hungarian. ;-) 

	Alexander

Bara'ti szeretettel hivunk mindenkit a Hunyadi Ma'tya's Cserke'szcsapat
fenntarta'sa e'rdeke'ben tartando' vacsora'val egybeko:to:tt

O"szi Ba'lja'ra

1995. november 18, szombat este 6:30pm CST
D.A.N.K. House, 4740 N. Western Ave., Chicago, IL
(lawrence & Western)

Bele'po" 10 dolla'r (vacsora ne'lku:l) 

Tanczene

Tombola f"nyereme'ny:
MALE'V repu:lo"jegy New York - Budapest - New York u'tvonalra.

Asztalfoglala's:
Na'das Erika: (312) 736-8427; Noe' Zolta'n (312) 774-9075

A ba'l tiszta beve'tele't a 19. sza'mu' Hunyadi Ma'tya's Cserke'szcsapat
magyar ifju'sa'gnevelo" munka'ja'nak tova'bbi fenntarta'sa'ra forditjuk.

Mivel a helyise'g baleset biztosita'sa kiza'ro'lag a 14 e'ven
vonatkozik, a terembe enne'l fiatalabbakat sajnos nem engedhetu:nk.

** Ho:lgyeknek este'lyi ruha, uraknak nyakkendo" ko:telezo"! ** 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:

> Ez persze nem teny, hanem Jozsi velemenye - ami mellesleg ellentetben 
>all az esemenyeknek az archivumban is lathato menetevel...

Hiya, Zoli!  Szoval megsem vesztel el?  Jo tudni, hogy ha mar nem is
irsz rendszeresen, azert tovabbra is argus szemekkel koveted irasaimat.
Termeszetesen a fenti alapos ervelesed hatasara azonnal visszavonom, amit
irtam, s elismerem, hogy te es a veled egy huron pendulok mind
rajongtatok a Zetenyi-Takacs torvenyert, s mi egyutt buslakodtunk,
amikor Rona-Tas Akos 92 marc. 4-en bejelentette a FORUMban, hogy az a
csunya AB elutasitotta azt.  A sajnalatos, s most visszavont allitasomra
mentsegul csak azt tudom felhozni, hogy epp arra a napra esett Borocz druszam
nagyhatasu bejelentese az elso tucat demokrata atvonulasarol a te
AGORAdba, amit par nappal kesobb kovetett a SZALON elso szama.

Megertesedre szamitva,

Meaculpazo baratod,
Jozsi

From:  (LONG SHLONG)
Subject: Re:Tomi Angi: I love U, U love me...
Date: Sat,  7 Oct 1995 08:47:43 UTC
  
>TOM ANGI taking it IN
>and singing : I love U, U love me... 
                                        
                    -----------
                  /      |      \
                 /       *       \
                (        @@       )
                /   /  -| |-  \   \                                           
               /   /    | |    \   \               
              /   / ----|_|---- \   \
             /   //      |      \\   \
            /   //       *       \\   \
       ##  /  / (        @@       ) \  \  ##
       \ \/  /  /   /   -||-  \_  \  \  \/ / 
        \  /   /   / |       | \   \  \   /
              /   / /  o    o \ \   \
             /   /  (         )  \  `\
             <_ ' `--`__    _'--' ` _ >
            /  '      / (O) \      `   \
       ##  /  /       (  v  )        \  \  ## 
       \ \/  /       @| o o |@        \  \/ /
        \   /         //////           \   /
               HARDER, HARDER , HARDER

>Guess who's ON TOP ? 

The ghost of Rakosi?
Moist InterAnal?
Buda Pesticide?
Well Hung Gary Duna?
Robo-stake?
So Long Schlong?
A Rude-Maniac?
A Rude-Dude-Maniac?
A low watt Trans Silvania Light Bulb?
A Jurassic Ottoman?


-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

>Wally wrote:
     >>For two years running the UN has declared Canada the best place in 
     >>which to live -- yet our youth kill themselves.

Christian wrote:     
     >trouble in paradise?  and how does the suicide rate of the youg 
     >indigenous folks compare to the rest of the canadian teenagers?  
     
Wally replied:
>I don't have any stats to prove any contention I might make. I do suspect
>that the suicide rate for First Nations People is marginally higher than
>for the general population. I feel more certain in saying that the
>mortality rate is much higher for Natives; this takes in account lower
>living standards (poor water/sanitation etc), cultural genocide,
>rootlessness and hopelessness which leads to a very high rate of
>substance abuse from Native young people. 

Interestingly, the Oct 7 issue of the Toronto Star, Canada's largest
circulation newspaper, there was an article entitled: "Why suicide is
soaring among teens in Canada" written by Elain Carey, Demographics
Reporter.

The articles opens thus: "The United Nations has called Canada 'the best
place in the world to live in terms of human development.' Since 1979,
suicides by young people 15 to 19 have doubled to 13.5 per 100,000,
ranking third behind New Zealand and Finland, according to UNICEF's 1994
report, The Progress of Nations."
     "Young people are killing themselves at twice the rate of Britain
and Japan, five times that of Italy. Some question whether reporting
methods from other countries are as accurate as Canada's... On closer
examination, the figures are even more devastating, hiding the real
problem of teenage boys."
     Their suicide rate has quadrupled since 1960 to 20 per 100,000 --
one in every 5,000 boys in the country, and still rising. Among young men
20 to 24, the rate has skyrocketed even higher to 29 per 100,000, the
highest of any age group except men over 80. And the rate among Indians is
the highest in the world -- 100 per 100,000 -- a total of 105 people under
age 29 between 1986 and 1990."

I'm even more curious now concerning what the hell is going on in Hungary
that gives it the highest suicide rate in the world. If Canada scores for
youth, then who is committing suicide in Hungary to make it go over the
top? Is it middle age people and/or pensioners?

My father committed suicide. He made one attempt & failed. Used a garden
hose on the exhaust of the car and put in thru the back window. They found
him in an open field unconscious. He took "shock treatment" for two years.
I was 11 at the time. When he did it, he was quite determined. Unlike a
large proportion of suicides which are impulsive, my father's was quite
planned. He completed his income tax way ahead of schedule. He took the
vacuum hose with him in the trunk of the car when he drove to the bank at
5am to clean up. He was the janitor there. He completed his job at 8am,
drove out to the very same field, attached the vacuum hose, which
delivered more gas than the garden hose, and made sure the windows were
not open except to let the vacuum hose do its job. It succeeded. I was 13.
I coulda beat the shit out of him when I went to the funeral parlour to
view him in his casket. Some years passed and the anger subsided. I wrote
a poem about it which acted as a catharsis for me.

I learned from my mother that he had recurring war dreams. He served in
Italy and Holland during WW2. One incident devastated him so I was told.
He had to drive a truck over a dead body laying on the road in Italy.
Couldn't stop. No room to go around. He felt the bump up through the
steering column. The original anger I had for my father has been diverted
to Europe. I didn't know I had done this until the war in Jugoslavija
broke out and Canada was sending peacekeepers there. I was vehemently
opposed to this. Got some minor publicity for it.

I argued that during the several times in Europe, I was condescended to by
various Europeans, Poles, Magyars, Romanians, etc., that Canada was a
young country, a baby, compared to the long and glorious histories of
these various European peoples. They had centuries and centuries of
culture. They had historical wisdom. They had... I swallowed all this of
course. Finally I realized, that in spite of their historical "wisdom" the
various European peoples had learned shit. It was "they" who had brought
the world two world wars. (Sure, I know, It's a wide brush) Nevertheless,
there was nothing to be learned from "them." After all, "they" had killed
my father by delayed action. With all their history they had learned
nothing. They still kill each other, and the idiots here seem to think
they should send our youth over there to "do something."

Anyway, this is a diversion. Suicide is personal to me. I examined it for
a semester at college. There were no particular insights learned except
that the children of parents who commit suicide have a statistically lower
chance of doing the same than children of parents who haven't. This suits
me fine because I much much prefer to kill others than myself. My
background provides me with good motive. Watch out!
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On 8 Oct 1995, T. Kocsis wrote:

> In article > , 
> writes:
> >Az Angi Tomitol fuggetlenul tovabbra is fenntartom, hogy oriasi
> >kulonbseg van a mi es o oldaluk kozott, mivel szemelyes
> >serteseket a Tomi erkezeseig nem lattam a magyar vitazoktol.
> 
> Nagyon udvarias vagy Joe.
> 
> A bunkosag, a pitianer szemetkedes ilyen mely szintjere valo
> leereszkedesre, mind azt Tom Angi teszi  az emlekeim szerint
> huzamosabb ideig me'g senki nem vetemedett  a csoportunkban.
> Az "SCM" kezdetu levelek par nap alatt tokeletesen balkanizal-
> tak a soc.culture.magyart.

Egy tenyer ha csattan. Nem akarom Tom Angit megvedeni, csak annyit - uj a 
csoportban. Talan ha emlekeztek, nagyon sokan a nepies oldalon kezdtek. 
Ha a csoportban mindenki intelligens ember modjara viselkedett volna, 
beleertve kedves roman baratainkat is, nem fajult volna el idaig a 
dolog. Azt hiszem mar tuleltunk egy-ket hasonlo dolgot a Useneten.  
Ha Tomi egy-ket nap szunetet tesz es rajon hogyan tegye tul magat az 
eddig szamara valoszinuleg ismeretlen szemelyes attrocitasokon, ismet 
varhatunk tole higgadt, baratsagos es ertelmes hozzaszolasokat ahogy 
ezelott tette. A jovoben, ha ugy erzitek valakivel elszalad a szeker, egy 
pozitiv hangu szemelyes figyelmezteto level valoszinuleg tobbet 
hasznal mint egy nyilvanos felhordules utolag. Fatylat ra. 
Udvozlettel, 
Gotthard

--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

The Hungarian Catholic community of Washington DC and Area will hold its 
Remebrance Mass on Sunday, October 15th at 1:30pm.

St. Dominic's Church
630 E Street, S.W.
 
--
mailto:

I am looking for Juliana Vancsai of Budapest.  If you know her, please 
have her respond to my e-mail address.

Thank you in advance,

Diane Kalisz

( George Stirling is the editor-publisher of the 
  Independent Hungarian News Service monthly. 
  Mail address:
  4301 Columbia Pike #729
  Arlington, VA 22204, USA
  Tel/Fax:  (703)-553-0473 )

   Stirling Gyo~rgy: Lengyel u't vagy magyar u't?...

   A magyar ado'ssa'gke'rde's megolda'sa'nak leheto"se'geit latolgatva, leguto'
bb
   utaltunk arra, hogy Moszkva, Varso' e's Szo'fia ma'r e'vekkel ezelo"tt
   "bedobta'k a to~ru~lko~zo"t" e's ra'sza'nta'k magukat azokat a le'pe'sekre,
   amelyekkel sikeru~lt hitelezo"ikbo"l to~rleszte'si ko~nnyebbse'geket
   kizsarolniok. Mert ami ezeknek az orsza'goknak pe'nzu~gyi taktika'ja't
   illeti, azt nyugodtan nevezhetju~k alig leplezett politikai zsarola'snak
   is: olyan va'laszta's ele' a'llitotta'k hitelezo"iket, hogy vagy
   beleegyeznek az o" a'ltaluk szabott felte'telekbe e's ko~nnyite'seket adnak,
   vagy nemcsak a pe'nzu~kre vethetnek keresztet, de sza'molhatnak az
   orsza'gban anarchia'val, de legala'bbis nyugtalansa'ggal e's a politikai
   egyensu'ly meginga'sa'val. Terme'szetesen a to"ke'sek, akik nem szeretik a
   forradalmakat, inka'bb az elso" megolda's mellett do~nto~ttek: hogy
   legala'bb a veszett fejsze nyele't megmentse'k, hozza'ja'rultak a
   ko~nnyite'sekhez e's beleto~ro"dtek abba, reme'lve, hogy igy pe'nzu~kbo"l
   valamit visszakapnak. 

   Az ado'ssa'gok egy re'sze'nek leira'sa me'g mindig kisebb
   vesztese'get jelentett sza'mukra, mint ami a stabilita's felborula'sa
   esete'n e'rte volna o"ket. Ennek nyoma'n pedig az e'rdekelt orsza'gokban
   azo'ta ma'r to~bb-kevesebb javula's mutatkozik e's az a re'mla'ta's sem
   igazolo'dott be, hogy elveszitette'k volna hitelke'pesse'gu~ket: ne'ha'ny e'
v
   eltelte'vel, ahogy megmutatta'k a cso~kkentett ado'ssa'g to~rleszte'se're va
lo'
   ke'szse'gu~ket, a bizalom visszate'rt e's isme't kaptak hiteleket
   iparfejleszte'sre, moderniza'la'sra, befektete'sekre s egye'b produktiv
   ce'lokra. (Nem u'gy mint annakelo"tte, amikor az a ke'ptelen helyzet a'llt
   elo", hogy aze'rt kellett mindig u'jabb e's u'jabb hiteleket felvennio~k,
   mert ma'ske'pp nem tudta'k volna fizetni az egyre nyomaszto'bb
   ado'ssa'gterhet, illetve az egyre no~vekvo" kamatokat. Eze'rt fontos pld.
   Magyarorsza'g sza'ma'ra a "hitelke'pesse'g" mego"rze'se!... Meg lehet ezt
   e'rteni norma'lis e'sszel?...)

   Ha ma'r beleva'gtunk a su~reje'be, ideje, hogy egyszer sorravegyu~k, milyen
   megolda'sokkal e'ltek a to~bbi volt un. szocialista orsza'gok, amelyek a
   hetvenes-nyolcvanas e'vekben e'ppen u'gy elado'sodtak, mint Magyarorsza'g,
   de ku~lo~nbo~zo" utakon haladva, ma's e's ma's mo'dszereket alkalmazva
   valahogy kievicke'ltek az ado'ssa'gka'tyubo'l e's ma sokkal elo"nyo~sebb
   helyzetben vannak, mint haza'nk. E's itt elo"lja'ro'ban ro~gto~n meg kell
   jegyeznu~nk: Magyarorsza'g nemcsak abban vezet, hogy a vila'g mintegy
   sza'z elado'sodott orsza'ga ko~zu~l a legsu'lyosabb ado'ssa'gteher nehezedik
   ra', olyan e'rtelemben, hogy az egy fo"re eso" ado'ssa'g o~sszege itt a
   legmagasabb, hanem egyetlen valamennyi ko~zu~l, amelyik eddig nem ke'rt
   ado'ssa'gko~nnyite'st (a'tu~temeze'st, kamatcso~kkente'st, morato'riumot vag
y
   elengede'st), hanem tu~zo~n-vizen a't, gazdasa'gi fejlo"de'se'nek ka'ra'ra e
's
   a'llampolga'rai jo'le'te'nek rova'sa'ra to~rleszti tartoza'sa't, illetve ann
ak
   kamatos kamatait, hiszen ko~ztudott, hogy a kapott hiteleket, a to"ke't
   ma'r re'ges-re'gen, sokak szerint ma'r to~bbszo~ro~sen is visszafizette az
   orsza'g.

   Hogy felide'zzu~k a ma ma'r szinte ko~dbeveszo" mu'ltat, azokban az ido"kben
,
   amikor az Odera-Neisse vonalto'l keletre Moszkva tartotta ro~vid ko~te'len
   az un. szocialista orsza'gokat, a szorosanvett szovjet blokkba hat
   orsza'g tartozott: Kelet-Ne'metorsza'g, Csehszlova'kia, Lengyelorsza'g,
   Magyarorsza'g, Roma'nia e's Bulga'ria. Ezeknek gazdasa'ga't,
   ku~lkereskedelme't e's export-importja't, so"t termele'si e's gya'rta'si
   programja't is a moszkvai KGST ko~zpontbo'l koordina'lta'k e's a szovjet
   tervgazda'lkoda's e'rdekei szerint ira'nyitotta'k. Ennek eredme'nyeke'pp
   ro~videsen valamennyi e'rdekelt orsza'g gazdasa'ga gondokkal ku~szko~do~tt e
's
   nyugati ko~lcso~no~kre szorult. Amelyeknek nyu'jta'sa'to'l a hidegha'boru'
   enyhu~le'se'nek e'veiben a kapitalista'k aze'rt nem za'rko'ztak el, mert ez
   beleillett a fellazita'si strate'gia'ba, a Kreml pedig aze'rt nem
   ellenezte, mert a tovarisok akkor ma'r re'gen fu~tyu~ltek az elvekre e's
   szivesen vette'k a vazallusaik ko~zvetite'se'vel e'rkezo" to"ke's-dolla'roka
t.
   Hamarosan azonban Moszkva maga is bea'llt a ko~lcso~nke'ro"k sora'ba e's
   sikeru~lt is pa'r e'v alatt 130 millia'rd dolla'rnyi ado'ssa'got
   o~sszegyu"jtenie. (Ami ugyan tekinte'lyes o~sszeg, de a nyersanyagokban
   gazdag 300 millio's birodalom sza'ma'ra nem jelentett olyan nyomaszto'
   megterhele'st, mint annak o~to~de a tizmillio's Magyarorsza'gnak.)

   Ennek ellene're a Szovjetunio'nak e'ppen u'gy esze a'ga'ban sem volt
   fizetni, mint ahogy nem to~rte maga't a to~rleszte'se'rt a joguto'd, a 150
   millio'sra olvadt Oroszorsza'g sem, amely ugyan megpro'ba'lta az ado'ssa'g
   egy re'sze't a'tha'ritani a Moszkva'to'l elszakadt volt tagko~zta'rsasa'gokr
a,
   de keve's sikerrel. Igy azta'n, amikor a nyugati hitelezo"k la'tta'k, hogy
   hia'ba va'rja'k a pe'nzu~ket, hajlando'knak mutatkoztak ta'rgyala'sokba
   bocsa'tkozni. (Moszkva ko~nnyen megengedhette maga'nak, hogy egyszeru"en
   fu~tyu~lt a fizete'si ko~telezettse'geire: egyre'szt Oroszorsza'g me'g ma is
   nagyhatalom, amit respekta'lnia kell a vila'gnak, ma'sre'szt a Kremlben
   jo'l tudja'k -- e's ezzel vissza is e'lnek --, hogy a Nyugat mindenne'l
   jobban fe'l egy oroszorsza'gi anarchia'to'l s annak megelo"ze'se're ba'rmily
en
   a'ldozatra hajlando'. Eze'rt ta'mogatta annakideje'n Gorbacsovot, majd
   ke'so"bb Jelcint e's fog ta'mogatni a jo~vo"ben is ba'rkit, akiben a
   konszolida'cio' biztosite'ka't la'tja. E's a be'kesse'g, meg a nyugalom
   e'rdeke'ben ma'r hogyne lenne hajlando' lenyelni azt a semmise'get, hogy
   Moszkva megmakacsolta maga't e's amikor esede'kesse' va'lt a to~rleszte's,
   kurta'n csak annyit vetett oda: nyet!)

   Ne'ha'ny e'vi szu~net ko~vetkezett, majd a tu~relmi ido" letelte'vel az oros
z
   ado'ssa'gke'rde's megolda'sa fele' az elso" le'pe's az volt, hogy Moszkva
   ta'rgyala'sokat kezdett ado'ssa'ga'lloma'nya'nak arro'l a ko~zel 30 millia'r
d
   dolla'ros re'sze'ro"l, amely olyan nyugati maga'nhitelezo"kto"l sza'rmazik,
   akik a Londoni Klubba to~mo~ru~lnek. A kb. 600 maga'nbankot ke'pviselo"
   Londoni Klub neve'ben a Deutsche Bank megbizottai u~ltek
   ta'rgyalo'asztalhoz Oleg Davidov miniszterelno~k-helyettessel

   Frankfurtban. Keme'ny vita'k uta'n -- mert az orosz ku~ldo~ttse'g a Londoni
   Klub 20 e'vre kiterjedo" a'tu~temeze'si javaslata'val szemben ragaszkodott a
   25 e'ves a'tu~temeze'shez -- ve'gre megegyeze's szu~letett, melynek egyik
   fontos pontja volt a kamatok me'rse'kle'se is. (Aki va'sa'rolt ma'r nyugaton
   pld. kocsit, vagy ha'zat, az jo'l tudja, milyen hatalmas elte're'st
   jelenthet a to~rleszte's o~sszege'ben a kamatla'bnak aka'r fe'l sza'zale'kos
   plusz-minusz elte're'se.)

   Davidov azzal e'rvelt, hogy Moszkva megbizhato' ado's akar maradni, de
   abba nem mehet bele, hogy olyan elviselhetetlen terhek nehezedjenek az
   orsza'gra, amelyek lehetetlenne' teszik a gazdasa'g fejlo"de'se't. A oroszok
   logika'ja ma'r ebben is elte'rt a magyar pe'nzu~gyi vezeto"k okoskoda'sa'to'
l,
   de (velu~k ellente'tben) fo"leg ott bizonyultak realista'knak, amikor
   kijelentette'k: ha a Nyugat valo'ban segiteni akar, nem u'jabb hiteleket
   adjon, hanem ko~nnyitse meg a megle'vo"k to~rleszte'se't. (Ez az, amire a
   magyar pe'nzu~gyi vezeto"k sohasem gondoltak...) Az orosz ku~ldo~ttek
   kijelentette'k, hogy e'vi 3 - 3,5 millia'rd dolla'rnyi ado'ssa'gszolga'lat
   fizete'se't tudja'k va'llalni, ane'lku~l, hogy az orsza'g gazdasa'gi fejo"de
'se
   ha'tra'nyt szenvedne. A nyugatiak elfogadta'k az aja'nlatot e's a
   mega'llapoda's beva'lt.

   Az orosz ado'ssa'ga'lloma'ny nagyobbik re'sze't a'llami ko~lcso~no~k ke'pezi
k s
   ezeknek a'tu~temeze'se u~gye'ben az orosz korma'ny a Pa'rizsi Klubbal folyta
t
   ta'rgyala'sokat. A Pa'rizsi Klub arro'l ismert, hogy a gazdasa'gi
   meggondola'sokkal szemben gyakran elo"nyben re'szesiti a politikai
   szempontokat, eze'rt a nemzetko~zi megfigyelo"k szerint ezeket a
   ta'rgyala'sokat ko~nnyebben lehet majd du"lo"re vinni. (Nyila'nvalo' ugyanis
,
   hogy a Nyugat nem sietteti az esetleg ne'pszeru"tlen do~nte'st mindaddig,
   amig le nem zajlanak a ko~zeljo~vo"ben esede'kes parlamenti va'laszta'sok,
   majd meg nem to~rte'nik az elno~kva'laszta's is. A hitelezo" korma'nyok,
   amelyek u'gy ba'nnak Jelcin to~re'keny, a'm lassan konszolida'lo'do'
   rendszere'vel, mint a himes toja'ssal, tudnak va'rni. Nekik mege'ri, hogy
   me'g egy-ke't e'v halade'kot adnak, Moszkva sza'ma'ra pedig le'tke'rde's, ho
gy
   le'legzethez jusson. Mindez egyu~tt pedig ma'ris kedvezo" hata'ssal van
   Oroszorsza'gban a piacgazdasa'gra valo' a'tte're's folyamata'ra: a javula's
   jelei, ha lassan is, de ma'r mutatkoznak.

   Enne'l sokkal la'tva'nyosabb eredme'nyeket e'rtek el a lengyelek, akik
   valamennyi volt szocialista orsza'g ko~zu~l a legmere'szebben va'gtak bele
   a dologba. A ke't ve'gletet Magyarorsza'g e's Lengyelorsza'g jelentette,
   eze'rt a magyar e's a lengyel u't egyara'nt pe'ldae'rte'ku"ve' va'lt a hason
lo'
   gondokkal ku~szko~do" orsza'gok sza'ma'ra: a magyar u't, amelyet a ne'vado'
   Magyarorsza'got kive've egyetlen ma's orsza'g sem ko~vetett, "Dead End"-nek
   bizonyult, mig a lengyelek a'ltal va'lasztott utat a sikerek igazolta'k.

   Hja a lengyelek!... Azok sokkal jobb helyzetben vannak, mint mi! --
   hangzik ilyenkor az e'rvele's, hogy nem lehet pa'rhuzamot vonni a ke't
   orsza'g ko~zo~tt. Nos igen: a lengyelek sza'ma 40 millio', orsza'guk
   strate'giai jelento"se'ge sokkal nagyobb Magyarorsza'ge'na'l, Amerika'ban 7
   millio' lengyel emigra'ns e'l e's befolya'sos politikusaik vannak, ve'gu~l
   pedig a Nyugat lelkiismerete me'g ma sem teljesen nyugodt a ma'sodik
   vila'gha'boru' uta'n to~rte'ntek miatt, amikor a gyo"ztesekhez tartozo'
   szo~vetse'gesu~ket kiszolga'ltatta'k Szta'linnak. Eze'rt Nyugat igyekszik
   kedvezni a lengyeleknek. No de Magyarorsza'g is hivatkozhat egy s
   ma'sra: ha az nem is hatja meg a Nyugatot, hogy valamikor a to~ro~ko~k
   ellen ve'dtu~k a kereszte'ny Euro'pa't, 1956 e's a Vasfu~ggo~ny lebonta'sa n
em
   volt olyan re'gen, hogy elfeledkezzenek ro'luk.

   A lengyel ado'ssa'g to~rte'nete sokban hasonlit a magyare'hoz. 1971-to"l
   1980-ig a kezdeti 1 millia'rdro'l Giereke'k sikeru~lt 23 millia'rd dolla'rra
   feltorna'szniok az ado'ssa'ga'lloma'nyt s a to~rleszte's teljesen
   rendszertelenu~l to~rte'nt. Ennek folyta'n pa'r e'v alatt halmozo'dtak a ki
   nem fizetett kamatok is, melyek o~sszege ro~videsen 7 millia'rd dolla'rra
   no"ttek. Ekkor Varso' egyoldalu'an felfu~ggesztette a to~rleszte'st e's
   ta'rgyala'sokat kezdeme'nyezett az a'tu~temeze'sro"l. Amikor 1981-ben
   Jaruzelski ta'bornok kihirdette a rendkivu~li a'llapotokat, ezek a
   ta'rgyala'sok megszakadtak, de a korma'nyzati hiteleket Varso' tova'bbra
   sem fizette, csak a banktartoza'sokat igyekezett to~rleszteni e's noha
   ezekre 1990-ig kiszoritott to~bb mint 12 millia'rd dolla'rt (3,6 millia'rd
   ment a to"ke're e's 8,6 millia'rd a kamatra), a lengyel ado'ssa'g a
   rendszerva'ltoza'skor ele'rte a 48 millia'rdot. (Jegyezzu~k meg: a
   te'nylegesen felvett ko~lcso~no~k o~sszege csak 17 millia'rdot tett ki,
   aminek kb. egyharmada maga'nbankokto'l, a to~bbi a'llami hitelekbo"l
   sza'rmazott.)

   Ekkor a lengyel gazdasa'g ma'r a padlo'n volt e's ha akart volna, akkor
   sem tudott volna fizetni. A korma'ny isme't ta'rgyala'sokat kezdett e's a
   Pa'rizsi, valamint a Londoni Klubbal folytatott hosszu' vita'k uta'n
   1993-ban olyan kompromisszum szu~letett, hogy az ado'ssa'gok fele't a
   bankok elengedik, az elmaradt kamatot 30 sza'zale'ka't leirja'k, a
   tartoza's egy re'sze't pedig ko~tve'nyesitik, ami gyakorlatilag a megmaradt
   o~sszeg 42 sza'zale'kos cso~kkente'se'nek felelt meg. Varso' tavaly ma'r
   rendesen to~rlesztett, ide'n pedig hata'rido" elo"tt egymillia'rd dolla'rt
   fizetett vissza a Valutaalapnak, hogy ezzel is gyorsitsa a megmaradt
   ado'ssa'g felsza'mola'sa't. Ko~zben a levego"ho~z jutott lengyel gazdasa'g
   megero"so~do~tt, fejlo"de'snek indult e's ide'n ma'r u'jra felta'madt a ku~l
fo~ldi
   mu"ko~do" to"ke e'rdeklo"de'se a lengyelorsza'gi befektete'sek ira'nt. Varso
'
   isme't bekapcsolo'dott a nemzetko~zi pe'nzforgalomba e's hitelke'pesse'ge'n
   sem esett csorba.

   Bulga'ria, mely az egy fo"re eso" ado'ssa'g tekintete'ben ro~gto~n
   Magyarorsza'g uta'n ko~vetkezett, nagyja'bo'l ugyanazzal a taktika'val e'lt,
   mint a lengyelek e's sikeru~lt mo'rato'riumot, illetve ko~tve'nyesite's re'v
e'n
   ko~zel 50 sza'zale'kos cso~kkene'st ele'rnie. Ez az orsza'g is kezd
   kikapaszkodni az ado'ssa'gverembo"l e's ba'r olyan la'tva'nyos eredme'nyeket
   me'g nem tud felmutatni, mint Lengyelorsza'g, az ado'ssa'gkezele'si mo'dszer
   beva'lt e's a javula's szembeo~tlo". A hajdani szocialista ta'bor to~bbi
   orsza'ga'val nincs mit foglalkoznunk: Kelet-Ne'metorsza'g gondjait
   megoldotta a ne'met u'jraegyesite's, Csehszlova'kia e's Roma'nia pedig (ez
   uto'bbi kegyetlen megszorita'sok a'ra'n) 1992-ig visszafizette'k o~sszes
   tartoza'sukat.

   A fenti pe'lda'k o~nmaguke'rt besze'lnek: ha pa'rhuzamba a'llitjuk azokat
   Magyarorsza'g helyzete'vel, siralmas ke'pet kapunk. Mikor e'brednek ra'
   ve'gre az illete'kesek, hogy ez az u't szakade'kba vezeti az orsza'got?....

Archive-name: hungarian-faq
Last-modified: 1995/07/07
Version: 1.01
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online
1.5  Mozaik
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX
2.2  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). Mozaik brings you, among other
things, reposts of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and
other sources) that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM').

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
                <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
                <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS').

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)

------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. Its services,
almost exclusively in Hungarian, change frequently, so it is best to
obtain an up-to-date help file by sending a blank email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)

 The following two are not available for email subscription from
outside Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several hundred readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

 - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

 - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
page is in Hungarian)

 - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

 - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

  A new directory server <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; 
catalogize hierarchically the growing number of Hungarian Internet 
info sources.  There is a similar collection at
<http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard/hir.html>;.

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 
<http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~HRISTOS/index.html>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

.. ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
.. 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
.. Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." 		- 	Rudyard Kipling

Ez a leve'l ki volt ossztva nem re'gen a templomunkba:
E'rdeklo"de's telefonsza'mon vagy leve'lutja'n a sorsjegyekkel
kapcsolatba. 

St Stephen King of Hungary Church
Rev. Joseph Somos, pastor
2015 W. Augusta Blvd.
Chicago, IL 60622
Phone: (312)486-1896

Kedves Tesve'reim,

Isme't elszaladt egy e'v.  Templomunk hatvanegyedik bu'csu'ja't u:nnepli.
Ez a nap nemcsak sze'p multunkat a'llitja ele'nek, hanem jelenu:nk e's
jo:vo"nk ke'de'se't is felveti.  Ahogy az elmu'lt hatvanegy e'v alatt is egy
maroknyi ko:zo:sse'g tartotta fel templomunka't, u'gy van ez ma is.  Ez a
kis ko:zo:sse'g le'leksza'mban alig haladja meg a ha'romsza'zat ebben a 
hatalmas va'ros nagy emberto:megben.

De vagyunk, le'tezu:nk e's tudatunk magunkro'l.  Eze'rt jelentkezu:nk isme't
az e'vi szoka'sos eseme'nyu:nk, az Erzse'bet-Katalin ba'l e'vfordulo'ja'n.  
Ilyenkor szoktuk ke'rni templomunk hivei re'szve'tele't egy nagyszaba'su' 
sorsjate'kban, hogy ezzel is hazza'ja'ruljunk templomunk, ko:zo:sse'gi
helyse'geink fenntarta'sa'hoz.  Hiszen csak a fenntarta'si ko:ltse'gek e's 
szu:kse'gszeru" javita'sok is komoly o:sszeget eme'sztenek fel egy kilencven
e've't meghalado e'pu:leten.  De ez z mie'nk, ezt kell mego"riznu:nk a
ko:vetkezo" e'vekre-e'vtizedekre.

Proba'ljuk ezt jate'kosan tenni.  Az ide'n tizenegy leheto"se'get adunk tiz 
dolla'rte'rt menden kedves re'sztvevo"nek, hogy - az elso" nyereme'ny 
O:tsza'z dolla'rja't megnyerhesse.  O:tsza'z dolla'r me'g ma is sze'p pe'nz,
ha azt tiz dolla're'rt meg lehet nyerni.  Tudom, csak egy lehet a fo"nyere-
me'ny nyertese, de azt is tudom, hogy mindazok, akik leheto"se'get vesznek 
maguknak e's nem nyernek, meg vannak gyo"zo"dve, hogy a pe'nz jo' helyre megy.

A vasa'rnapi adoma'nyok alig fedezik e'vi kiada'saink fele't.  A to"bbit igy 
kell o:sszegyu"jtenu:nk, vagy ebe'dekkel, rendezve'nyekkel kell megdolgoznunk
e'rte.  Ha a magyar ko:zo:se'g tagja'nak e'rezzu:k magunkat, legyen ez is egy
mod re'sztvenni a ko:zo:s a'ldozatva'llala'sbo'l.  Azta'n ha ma'r becsukja'k
a magyar templomot feju:nk felett, to:bbe' nem jo:n sorsjegya'rusito' leve'l.
De amig vagyunk, o:ro:mmel tesszu:k, hogy megtoldjuk fennmarada'sunkat egy-
ke't e'vvel.

A nyeremeny megnyere'se'hez nem szu:kse'ges jelen leni.  Irja ra' neve't,
cime't, s szerencse's hu'za's esete'n kie'rtesitju:k.

Jo'indulatukat, a ko:zo:s tehervisele'sben valo' re'szve'telu:ket ezuton is
ko:szo:no:m.

O"szinte tisztelettel:

Jozsef atya
Chicago, 1995, September 15.

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In >  (5 ) writes:
|> 
|> >In article >,  (Dan Pop) writ
es:
|> >|> In >  (Kriza Gyorgy)
 writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> >In article >,  says...
|> >|> >
|> >|> >>Nice try.  Most people bearing those names come from Romanian families
|> >|> >                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >|> >>with a Hungarian ancestor, not from Hungarian families.  I have a frie
nd,
|> >|> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >|> >>Doru Chis, who is a very good example (he can't even tell who was the
|> >|> >>Hungarian ancestor in his family).
|> >|> >
|> >|> >This is exactly what is called a "Romanianized" family, is not it?
|> >|> 
|> >|> I'm afraid I don't get it.  A family with a single, remote, Hungarian
|> >|> ancestor is a Romanian family, not a "Romanianized" family.  If that
|> >|> ancestor happened to be a grand-grandfather, my friend would be 12.5%
|> >|> Hungarian.  But I guess this is considerably more important than the 87.
5%
|> >|> of non-Hungarian origin :-)
|> >
|> >Bad guess, the most important is what you consider yourself and how yoy fee
l
|> >about it - this is not a matter of percentages. Fact is that at a certain p
oint
|> >(actually several points) in time it was advantageous, sometimes even quest
ion of
|> >to starve or survive, to become a Romanian even in the in the pre- 1919 
|> >Transylvania. 
|> 
|> Care to give some concrete examples from pre-1919 Transylvania?
|> This is a brand new (at least for me) theory, suggesting that the
|> Romanian majority in pre-1919 Transylvania might have Hungarian origins
|> and not Daco-Roman (or Slavic or whatever) origins :-)

First, this is not a theory, especially not one on the origin of the Romanians 
currentlt living in Transylvania. The issue was "Magyarization vs. Romanization
",
whence I stated something about the origin of many Hungarian sounding "Romanian
"
names.

Second, what do you want for a concrete example? Do you want me to say somethin
g 
of the sort you use to, about (accidentally) having having a friend who exactly
fits to the situation I'd like to demonstrate? :-(  Or alternatively I can
describe you what the older people tell as heared from their parents (that woul
d
be no worse than the stories Romanians heared from their parents about the 
horrible deeds of Hunagrians. Finally I could give you examples from the 
Transylvanian Hungarian literature of that period. Any preferences? I hope 
you didn't mean that I should use one of the Romanian history books for 
source.

|> 
|> >Many did it. And most of those, as well as their descendants denied
|> >that they had ever been Hungarians. Within a few generation nobody in the f
amily 
|> >would know the truth. 
|> 
|> Considering the number of Romanian citizens who declare themselves 
|> Hungarians (and have voted with HDRU), you described some isolated cases,
|> not a typical situation.  The Hungarian population of Romania has been
|> constantly growing since 1918.  Could you say the same thing for the
|> Romanian population of Hungary?

If you look into some population listings, such as phone books, you will see
that there are many people with such names, so this phenomenon is not isolated.
Now, why would the number of cases in which your single Hungarian ancestor
theory holds more than the ones in which mine is true. BTW, why did all those
people who made a mixed marriage Roamanize and not Magyarize, especially in
a period when Transylvania was part of Hunagry? Odd, isn't it? Would you do tha
t,
that is suppose you fell in love and wanted to marry a Hungarian girl while 
living in Romania and decide to become a Hungarian and raise your children as
Hunagrians - thrilling?

Concerning the population growth: compare the growth of the Romanian population
in the same period and suggest an analysis based on that.

|> 
|> Dan


Matyas
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T. Kocsis  > wrote:

>Erdekes lenne tudni, hogy mi serti oket jobban. A Kadar-Hitler
>parhuzam (gy.k. Hitler-jugend) faj nekik, mert szivuk melyen
>meg mindig kedvelik az oreget, vagy mert a jugend-en keresz-
>tul szormenten le lettek fasisztazva.

A Hitler Jugendben sem volt mindenki vadallat, hiszen tobbnyire olyan
kotelezo szervezet volt Nemetorszagban az, mint az Uttorok MO-on.
Viszont a HJ biztosan alaposan hozzajarult a nemet nep agymosasahoz.  En
elsosorban erre az agymosottsagra gondolok, amikor a Kadar Jugendet
talalo megjegyzesnek veltem.  Nektek odahaza ez nem tunhetett fel, de
nekem, aki csak 79-tol kezdtem ismet hazalatogatni, nagyon feltunt.  Az
a szeretet, ami azt a vereskezu Kadart korulovezte, szinte hanyingert 
tudott okozni.  Aztan ott volt az a suttogo, lengyel (Szolidaritas)
ellenes propoganda is a 80-as evek elejen!  Nem is beszelve arrol, hogy
mar hanyan valoban ellenforradalomnak tartottak 56-ot.  Szoval elegge
uralkodnom kell magamon, hogy komoly pofaval hallgassam az ilyeneket
most demokraciarol, s toleranciarol szonokolni. 

>Gyanitom, hogy csak az egykori KISZ-vezetokbol lett ma-eppen-
>liberalis zsurfiuk kenyeskednek ennyire, nekik ugyanis van mit
>elfelejteni. Ok ugyanis mar nem elvbol voltak kommunistak,
>mint az elottuk jaro generacio, hanem piszkos anyagiak miatt.
>Egyetemi kollegiumok eseten ez javareszt a bufe (a kollegiumi
>szeszarusitas) feletti ellenorzest jelentette. Na meg az oszton-
>dijak es egyeb kedvezmenyek kedvezo elosztasat.

No, nagyjabol ilyen szovegeket nyomott a CSEPPSZ is 91-92-ben, s ez
akkor a mimozalelku szalontarsasagnak nem hangzott hitelesnek.  Erdekes
most ilyesmit olvasni egy hazaitol is.

P.J.

 (Hungarian-American List) writes:

>REGIONAL NEWS
>-------------
>**BOSNIAN CEASEFIRE CONDITIONS IN PLACE**
>  There was very little standing in the way of a ceasefire in
>[...]
>  supplies will reach Sarajevo this morning.  The pipeline
>  passes through Hungary.

>BUSINESS NEWS
>-------------
>**WHAT THE WORLD'S BEEN WAITING FOR**
>  Romania and Turkey's Nurol Machinery and Industry Company have
>  developed a new amphibious armored personnel carrier.  They
>[...]

What the hell has this got to do with Hungarian culture or society ?

>This message has been generated automatically. 

I see, so everything with Hungary OR Romania in it is automatically 
of relevance.  Hm.

George Antony

Here is one of stranger requests to hit this group in a while...

My wife is doing a course at Polytech, and as part of this course she is
required to speak several phrases, count to ten etc in a non-English language.
She has a several languages available to her, but would really like to present
Hungarian.
We have a Magyar-English dictionary, but we are only fluent in "yes", "no" and
"thankyou".
Even though it is unlikely that anyone would notice, she would like to get the
pronunciation correct.
Is there anywhere on the net that I could download (WWW, FTP etc) some .WAV
files with native Hungarian's's speaking? (and preferably translated, real 
simple stuff))
Even non-native but fluent would be O.K.

She needs to present it in five days time.

Thanks for your time,

                               Garry.

############################################################################
#  A foolish son is his father's        # Internet:        #
#  ruin, and a quarrelsome wife is      # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
#  like a constant dripping.            # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
#                        Proverbs 19:13 # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################

Szeretnem felhivni becses figyelmeteket a HUNGARY lista #457
levelcsomagjara, amiben Fencsik Gabor eles tamadasa talalhato prof.
Liptak itt is ismertetett OpEd cikkere.

Gondolom erdekes lenne megvitatni ezt a ket cikket.

Pannon J.

>Cristian Tomescu wrote:
>    ......................................................................
>    <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>    ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>    ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><>><><><
>    ><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><>><><><time required to process all 
>    brand new scr/scm material i have so dearly missed for the last month 
>    or so><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>    >?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?
>    !@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@
>    ......................................................................
>    ........nah, as boring as ever....................goodnight...........
>    ...............<-cristian>........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh........zzzzz
>    zzzzzzzzzzz................

Cris; great wallpaper.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In >  (Kriza Gyorgy) wri
tes:
|> 
|> >In article >,  says...
|> >
|> >>Nice try.  Most people bearing those names come from Romanian families
|> >                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >>with a Hungarian ancestor, not from Hungarian families.  I have a friend,
|> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >>Doru Chis, who is a very good example (he can't even tell who was the
|> >>Hungarian ancestor in his family).
|> >
|> >This is exactly what is called a "Romanianized" family, is not it?
|> 
|> I'm afraid I don't get it.  A family with a single, remote, Hungarian
|> ancestor is a Romanian family, not a "Romanianized" family.  If that
|> ancestor happened to be a grand-grandfather, my friend would be 12.5%
|> Hungarian.  But I guess this is considerably more important than the 87.5%
|> of non-Hungarian origin :-)

Bad guess, the most important is what you consider yourself and how yoy feel
about it - this is not a matter of percentages. Fact is that at a certain point
(actually several points) in time it was advantageous, sometimes even question 
of
to starve or survive, to become a Romanian even in the in the pre- 1919 
Transylvania. Many did it. And most of those, as well as their descendants deni
ed
that they had ever been Hungarians. Within a few generation nobody in the famil
y 
would know the truth. 

The same phenomenon was present in the communist Romania, when a HUngarian coul
d 
make it to a certain level - within the 10% prescribed by the party regulations
(e.g. colonel in the army), so it wasn't really an advantage to be Hungarian.
Most of those who didn't do it back then won't probably do it in the future 
(bad news guys?), but there is still hope for the future generations - Romania 
is
working on that.

L. Matyas



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From:  (Dan Pop)
>Did you follow your own advice?  The Webster lists three different
>spellings: Rumania, Roumania and Romania, but the last two are simply
>pointers to the first, which seems to be the preferred spelling in
>English (both British and American).

Which Webster are you using??
Webster's Third New International Dictionary lists Romania as the 
main listing with Rumania pointing to Romania. 

I'm with Adrian on this one, use the spelling in the newsgroup title.

DB

In the tradition of Publius, Cato, and Centinel...
Decius Brutus

In >,  () writes:
>In article >, Nagy Peter > wrote:
>>
>> Egyebkent a Kadar-Jugend
>>kifejezes az egyik legmocskosabb, legmegalazobb es legalaptalanabb, amit
>>valaha kitalaltatok.  Pontosan ez a szemelyeskedo, megalazni kivano
>>stilus vezetett el a parbeszedre valo keptelenseghez.  (Hozzateve: a
>>masik fel sem volt sokkal kulonb.)
>
>Mi az, hogy "kitalaltatok"?  Ez ugy hangzik, mintha nekem is valami
>kozom lett volna hozza.  Pedig a Rambo Arpival, aki azt kitalalta, meg
>soha nem is beszeltem privatilag, s azon kivul amit magarol irt, en sem
>tudok rola tobbet, mint te.

Valoban, pontatlanul fogalmaztam.  Elnezest.  A "ti" csak a hasznalokra
vonatkozhat.  Nem mintha ez valtoztatna a dolgokon, de ha mar
precizkedunk (tehat en is), igazad van.

>Kulonben, embere valogatja; en tovabbra is
>fentartom, hogy a Kadar jugend elnevezes nagyon talalo.  Persze azon nem
>csodalkozom, hogy azoknak nem tetszik, akit eltalalt.
>
>P.J.

Vilagos.  Orulok hogy sikerult talalnod egy ilyen talalo elnevezest.
Hasznald egeszseggel.  Sot az is klassz, hogy eszreveszed: akikkel
kapcsolatban hasznalod, azoknak ez nem tetszik.  Tehat meg nem
vesztetted el a valosaggal minden kapcsolatodat!  :-)  (Csak nem
megsertodni!)

Mondd (mas tema), miert nem hasznalod a rendes, teljes nevedet?  Csak
kivancsisagbol.  En tudom a nevedet, nem arrol van szo; de nekem eddig
ugy tunt, hogy az interneten az a szokas jarja, hogy vagy alairaskent,
vagy az email-cim mellett szerepel a teljes nev.  Nalad miert nem?


In >, T. Kocsis > writes:
>In article > , 
>writes:
>>Kulonben, embere valogatja; en tovabbra is
>>fentartom, hogy a Kadar jugend elnevezes nagyon talalo.  Persze azon nem
>>csodalkozom, hogy azoknak nem tetszik, akit eltalalt.
>
>Erdekes lenne tudni, hogy mi serti oket jobban. A Kadar-Hitler
>parhuzam (gy.k. Hitler-jugend) faj nekik, mert szivuk melyen
>meg mindig kedvelik az oreget, vagy mert a jugend-en keresz-
>tul szormenten le lettek fasisztazva.

Ez jo!  :-)  Igy a stilusodbol itelve nem adok nagy jovot a mi kettonk
diskurzusanak.  Mert mit is mondasz:  szoval ha zavarja a
lekadarjugendezetteket az elnevezesbeli Hitler-Kadar parhuzam, akkor ez
csak azert lehet, "mert szivuk melyen meg mindig kedvelik az oreget".  A
lefasisztazas-vonzatot csak a "jugend"-bol veled felismerni.

Tetszik a logikad!  Nem hiszem, hogy valaszt varsz.


>Gyanitom, hogy csak az egykori KISZ-vezetokbol lett ma-eppen-
>liberalis zsurfiuk kenyeskednek ennyire, nekik ugyanis van mit
>elfelejteni. Ok ugyanis mar nem elvbol voltak kommunistak,
>mint az elottuk jaro generacio, hanem piszkos anyagiak miatt.
>Egyetemi kollegiumok eseten ez javareszt a bufe (a kollegiumi
>szeszarusitas) feletti ellenorzest jelentette. Na meg az oszton-
>dijak es egyeb kedvezmenyek kedvezo elosztasat.

Szemelyeskedo hozzaszolasod arra enged kovetkeztetni, hogy melto tagja
lehettel volna a FORUM torzskozonsegenek a legnagyobb csetepatek idejen
is.  Miutan megjegyzem, hogy mennyire nem tetszik nekem a Kadar-Jugend
elnevezes, kifejezed a gyanudat, hogy szerinted csak azoknak nem
tetszik, akik egykor KISZ-titkarok, opportunista kommunistak voltak
"piszkos anyagiak" miatt, ma pedig libi zsurfiuk, stb.

Nezd, hagyjuk ezt.  Mi szukseg erre?  Nincs nekem semmi kedvem a
stilusodban valami hasonloan ertelmetlen tiradat kivagni se ugyanezzel,
se ellenkezo elojellel.  Meg arra sincs kedvem, hogy elkezdjem
cafolgatni amit irtal.  Minek?  Szavamat se hinned.  Ha kedved van
erdemi parbeszedet folytatni, rendben.  Ha nem, ugy is jo, de tudni
fogod, miert nem valaszolok.

>Tamas

Udv,
 ,
Peter

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To me, box is like a ballet... except there is no music, no
choreography, and the dancers hit each other."

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista akit is
merek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom 
hogy bistosz van aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzel
d el, bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis 
nem kabittota mindenkit el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, j
atszunk egy jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek 
Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem hogy csa
k ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni 
Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Tisztelt olvasok,
Mivel csak friss intertnet "lapozo"vagyok, szeretnem, segitseguket kerni;
milyen internet cimen juthatok hozza friss magyar ujsagcikkekhez.
Minden egyeb tanacsot megkoszonok. Udv.Szende Peter, Toronto,

Boris Bjelica > wrote:
>
> 
> 
> On Sun, 8 Oct 1995  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hereby, I would like to respond to Mr. Bila Liptak's article, and to 
> clarify some historical facts wrt Vojvodina region.  It seems that that 
> there have been some misinterpretations of the facts.  I will do a sort 
> of reply since I believe it's good to "face" a Serbian and a Hungarian 
> point of view on an issue such as this.
>  
> >         Bila Liptak >         84 Old N. Stamford Road, Stamford, CT 06905-3
961
> >         T:203-357-7614, Fax:203-325-3922,
> >          E-Mail: 
> > 
> > It might seem that the Holbrooke-Milosevic pact will deliver justice, as it
> > makes the Bosnian Serbs to taste their own medicine. Unfortunately, the
> > domino-effect of this pact creates worst problems than what it solves and t
he
> > new victims are innocent third parties: Hungarians and Albanians. Because t
he
> > American public is totally unaware of this, I prepared the attached OP-ED
> > piece. If you need it, I can also fax you maps: Bila Liptak.
> > 
> > 
> >         The Balkan Tragedy: Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina
> > Vojvodina's population is greater than Bosnia's. A multi-cultural tapestry 
of
> > Hungarian, Croatian, Serb, German, Roma, Slovak, Romanian and Ruthenian
> > cultures flourished here for centuries. Yet, many maps don't even distingui
sh
> > Vojvodina from Serbia and few know what is happening there, because few
> > reporters ever visit Vojvodina. Yet, the process of ethnic cleansing, which
> > caused the Bosnian tragedy, has also reached Vojvodina. The majority of the
> > over 200,000 Serbs dislodged from the Krajina region of Croatia and from
> > southern Bosnia are being used to extricate the Hungarian population of
> > Vojvodina.
> >        Why is it, that by attempting to solve one problem (Bosnia), we mana
ge
> > to create two: the de- stabilizing of both Vojvodina and Kosovo? Why is it,
> > that the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina Serbs from Croatia, which our Stat
e
> > Department called  a window of opportunity for peace , and the ethnic
> > cleansing of the south-Bosnia Serbs, which is a byproduct of NATO's bombing
,
> > might not facilitate peace, and in fact, could draw the neighboring countri
es
> > of Hungary and Albania into the conflict. Why is it, that in order to make
> > Slobodan Milisevic to sign on to the American-led Contact Group's peace
> > proposal, he has to be offered a trade-off, at the expense of the Hungarian
s
> > in Vojvodina and of the Albanians in Kosovo?
> 
> A little remark.  First of all, Albanians in Kosmet currently make 90% of 
> the population (about 1.8 million).  There are only 2,000 Serbs who went 
> to Kosovo.  That can't in any way change anything.  Albanian 
> natality is the highest of Europe (38 promiles).  Their population 
> rised from 200,000 in 1945 to 2 million in 1991.
> 
> Problems of Kosmet and Vojvodina are two separate and different 
> problems.  The problem with Kosmet is historical because Serbs face the 
> extermination at their historical region.  Albanian way of life counters 
> the Serbian, and a compromise is very hard to find except some 
> territorial division.
> 
> Vojvodina is quite different.  Both Andras Agoston and Ferenc Csubela 
> (leaders of Hungarians in Serbia) advocate forms of autonomy which don't 
> oppose Serbian sovereignty.  They have wisely stated that it's more 
> important to solve Hungarian problem for all of Vojvodina by providing 
> three forms of autonomy - personal, territorial (for all of Vojvodina), 
> and ethnical.  All three exist on the paper, but they are not implemented.
> All in all, Vojvodina problem can easily be solved if Serbia shows 
> neccessary flexibility.  Those days are coming as Milosevic is leaving.  
> Serbia as a whole can prosper only if decentrilized and not directed 
> through Milosevic's office.
> 
> >       To find the answers, we have to understand the mind-set of the
> > bureaucrats in the State Department. In the Kissinger-Eagleburger cookbook,
> > the recipe for solving international problems is to mix one part of selecti
ve
> > justice with two parts of alternating determination against and appeasement
> > of the aggressors. The recipe avoids the salt of an overall plan or of a lo
ng
> > range regional concept. Bureaucrats believe that only the victors deserve
> > justice and only the losers can be found guilty. Therefore the Serbs deserv
e
> > full autonomy within Bosnia, but the minorities in Serbia, or elsewhere in
> > Central Europe do not.
> 
> Incorrect.  Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina are not a "minority".  Or to 
> put it your way, there are 3 minorities in BH - Muslim, Croat, and Serb.  
> All three have the right to self-determination.  
> 
> Minorities in Serbia do deserve the autonomy, though.
> 
> >        For most of the last 1100 years, Vojvodina was part of Hungary. Only
> > after the dismemberment of the Hungarian Kingdom and the creation of such
> > unnatural entities as Yugoslavia in 1918-20, did Vojvodina become an
> > autonomous region of that federation. According to the 1974 Yugoslav
> > constitution, Vojvodina should be an autonomous province of Yugoslavia (not
> > Serbia!) This autonomy, and that of Kosovo, were arbitrarily rescinded in
> > 1990.
> 
> This paragraph is very much misleading.  The fact is that region k.a. 
> Vojvodina has been mostly part of Austrian and Hungarian countries.  But, 
> the region of original Vojvodina (Banat, Backa, Baranja) declared its 
> unification with Kingdom of Serbia in 1918.  First it became a part of 
> the Kingdom of Serbia (which militarilly took over the region), and then 
> Kingdom of Serbia got united with Austrian dominated areas of Yugoslavia 
> to form the SCS Kingdom ("Yugoslavia").
> 
> Your statement w.r.t. Vojvodinian autonomy as part of Yugoslavia, but not 
> Serbia is a misinterpretation.  Since 1918, Vojvodina ("the land of 
> Dukes" in Serbian) was in every Serbian constitution regarded as its 
> integral part.
> 
> The "yogurt" revolution in 1988 (NOT 1990!!!) led to the Vojvodinian loss 
> of the previous form of autonomy.  The "revolution" was led by 
> Vojvodinian politicians loyal to Milosevic, primarily Mihaly Kertesz and 
> Nedeljko Sipovac.  
> 
> After all, your country (U.S.) has taken an active part on dismembering 
> Yugoslavia, so why do you refer to a "Yugoslav" constitution which was 
> heavily violated by the U.S.?
> 
> >        Vojvodina is the breadbasket of Serbian-Yugoslavia. It is already it
's
> > most densely populated region, consisting of the Srem, which was part of
> > Croatia-Slavonia until 1918, Backa, which was part of Hungary and the weste
rn
> > part of Banat, also part of Hungary. The Hungarians did not get involved in
> > the Bosnian war. They did not side with any of the warring factions.
> > Consequently they are being treated as enemies by all.
> 
> Srem was a part of Austria until 1918.  Parts of Belgrade (Zemun, Novi 
> Beograd) are in Srem.
> 
> It is not true that Vojvodina is most densely populated region. It is 
> Kosovo and Metokhia (not just "Kosovo").  Kosmet, twice smaller in size, 
> has 2 mill. people as well as Vojvodina.
> 
> >      Today Croatia and Serbia are getting ready to fight over the Hungarian
> > villages of Eastern Slavonia. Croatia is also furthering her ethnic purity 
by
> > quadrupling the taxes on the Adriatic vacation homes of Vojvodina Hungarian
s,
> > which, under the present economic conditions is the same as confiscating
> > them. Yet, this is nothing compared to what the Serbs are doing to the
> > Vojvodina Hungarians.
> 
> Appendix: "Comparing" is always a bad business.  Hungarians have paid a 
> big price in Slavonia once already.  Their villages in Baranja region were 
> emptied in 1991 when Serbs and Croats clashed.
> 
> >        At the time of Hungary's dismemberment in 1920, Vojvodina's Serb
> > population was only 25%. Through expulsions, and other forms of uprooting o
f
> > the non-Serb population and by importing Serb colonialists, the Serbian
> > population by 1948, has increased to 55%. During the Communist era, this
> > ethnic cleansing process has further intensified, and by 1991 the Hungarian
> > population of Vojvodina was reduced to 17%.  Today, only 350,000 Hungarians
> > remain in Vojvodina and the only compact cluster of Hungarian presence that
> > survives is in the north-central part, along the Tisza river. It is this
> >  problem  that the Serb refugees from the Krajina and south-Bosnia are
> > supposed to  solve .
> 
> This is more less correct.  But you disregard that today's Vojvodina 
> includes Srem (which was predominantly Serbian prior to 1918) and 
> excludes Baranja.  In 1920, there were 29% of the Serbs in Baranja, 
> Banat, and Backa.  Today's Vojvodina has 57.7% of Serbs. The number of 
> "Serbian" Hungarians is higher than stated (they number about 450,000), but 
> many have left Serbia due to war draftings (as well as 250,000 young Serbs). 
 
> Milosevic' regime still doesn't grant them amnesty, but amnesty is a part 
> of the Holbrooke-Milosevic deal.
> 
> It is quite true that different methods of colonialism were introduced to 
> Vojvodina, but it's silly to blame only Serbs for that.  First of all, 
> Banat region had some 450,000 Germans which were all brutally expelled in 
> 1945 due to "their involvement in Nazi genocide", as Tito's Communists 
> stated. That was a genocide itself because today no traces of German 
> culture can  be found- churches, cemetaries, etc. -traces of German 
> culture are not detectable anymore.  
> 
> Please note that colonialism which took place in 1945-1950 was mainly 
> directed towards these formerly German regions.  It's quite clear today 
> that Croat Josip Broz Tito started bringing Krajina and Bosnian Serbs to 
> these regions in order to "homogenize" Croatia.  The fact is that 
> Hungarians and others pay the price, but things are not black-white; it 
> wasn't exactly the Serbs who should be blamed. 
> 
> >  According to the Democratic Community of Hungarians in Vojvodina:  The
> > Hungarians of Vojvodina are facing the danger of a FINAL SOLUTION, because
> > Vojvodina is being purged of its non-Serb popula tion.  According to them,
> > the Croat victory in the Krajina and in south-Bosnia was so swift, because
> > this  population transfer  has already been agreed to by both the Serbs and
> > the Croats.
> >        Bila Csorba, a Hungarian MP in the Serb-Yugoslav Parliament, describ
ed
> > the ethnic cleansing of a small Hungarian village named Svilojevo (Szilagyi
)
> > in this manner:  The Krajina Serbs cruised up and down the streets of Apati
n,
> > Sombor, Sonta and Svilojevo. On August 11, 1995 homes were confiscated from
> > their owners. By the time we have arrived to investigate, the village was
> > almost completely abandoned by its original inhabitants.
> 
> That is unfortunately an outcome of the war.  Criminals should pay for 
> that, and people should go back home.  "Highlander Serbs" (as Bosnian and 
> Krajina ones are called) certainly should go back home.  But it 
> unfortunately seems unlikely as long as Tudjman's regime is in place, and 
> as long as Milosevic is in power. 
> 
> To my knowledge, Serbian police has kicked the refugees out, and houses 
> were given back to their owners.  But your point is clear -  it is very 
> hard to feel free when things like that happen.
>  
> >        Part of the problem is due to the difference in the personalities
> > between the Krajina Serbs and the Vojvodina Hungarians. The Krajina Serbs
> > have a warrior mentality, they carry guns, for centuries they have been in
> > uninterrupted conflict with the Croats, their view of life is based on
> > constant struggle and hate for one's neighbors, their personality correspon
ds
> > to the rugged terrain they have inherited. The placidity of Vojvodina
> > Hungarians corresponds to the openness of their fertile plains. Yet, their
> > friendly and mild personality does not mean, that their patience is
> > unlimited. They are a strong and determined people. Monica Seles is a
> > Vojvodina Hungarian.
> 
> Absolutely true.  The same is for Vojvodinian Serbs.
> 
> >        Politicians who push Hungarians to the limit, should remember 1915,
> > the only time when Serbia was occupied in this century, or 1956, when the R
ed
> > Army learned, what happens, when Hungarians lose their temper. Hungary has
> > already accepted some 50,000 Hungarian and some 100,000 non-Hungarian
> > refugees from the disintegrating Yugoslavia. This economic burden, combined
> > with the loss of Hungary's southern markets, is testing her frail economy t
o
> > the limit. She has already protested the ethnic cleansing of Vojvodina and
> > will have no choice, but to defend her interests more forcefully if this
> > process continues.
> >      So what should be done in the microcosm of Vojvodina and in the
> > macrocosm of Central Europe?
> >      To Vojvodina, UN and NATO observers should be dispatched immediately,
> > and the restoration of her autonomy should be made an integral part of any
> > overall peace agreement.
> 
> Autonomy should be redefined, that's for sure.  But if "NATO" or any 
> other Serbian declared enemies (NATO killed more than 1,000 Serbs, 
> wounded several thousand, destroyed bridges, communications, and many 
> civilian buildings) come, that's certainly not good. That will only stir 
> the Balkan mixture even more.  Think about it.  "Dispatching" troops or 
> "observers" won't change anything.  If Krajina Serbs and other radical 
> elements remain in Vojvodina, they will even more frighten the minorities 
> by their individual actions, and that will lead to an even worse 
> situation for Hungarians.  The solution must be found in democraticizing 
> Serbia.  Americans all think that humiliating Serbs and Serbia is the 
> answer.  That's been proven wrong last 5 years and indirectly caused 
> horrible sufferings of the Balkan peoples.  Serbs as whole are quite 
> different by the region they come from, but all have one thing in common - 
> that is "pride".  Even usually peacefull Vojvodina Serbs have shown 
> to be very nationalistic with regard to the war.
> 
> >      As to the whole of Central Europe, it is essential to replace the
> > practice of selective justice and appeasement of aggressors with  clearly
> > defined overall goals and with uniform standards that are applicable to all
.
> > Richard Holbrooke is right, when he wants to provide group rights to all
> > three ethnic groups in Bosnia, but he is wrong, if he wants to limit these
> > rights only to Bosnia. There will be no peace in Central Europe, until all
> > ethnic groups are guaranteed their autonomy.
> >      On the other hand, once the ethnic tensions are eliminated through the
> > universal guarantee of cultural autonomy, the root cause of the upheavals i
n
> > the Balkans can also be solved. It is  power vacuum  in the region.
> > Throughout history, the Balkans were stable only, when a local power in the
> > Danubian Basin guaranteed it. The present power vacuum can only be eliminat
ed
> > through the formation of an economically self-sufficient, politically stabl
e
> > and militarily neutral Danubian Confederation.
> 
> You are right, but contradict yourself.  Your way is "slap Serbia, and 
> then it's all OK".  Yes, from a Hungaro-centric point of view, you are 
> right.  All you wrote would be so great if it didn't have negative 
> consequences to it.  The history can't be reversed, and Serbs will never 
> get their "heart" back (Kosmet, the heart of medieval Serbia), they are 
> kicked out of their Krajina (the "fender" Austro-Hungarian empire against 
> the Turks).  Also, Vojvodinian pop. ratio from 1918 can't be reclaimed.  
> The least civilized people can do in Serbia is fight through the democratic 
> institutions.  Serbia needs help, it needs democracy.
> 
> >        In 1920, President Wilson felt, that only through the formation of a
> > Danubian Confederation can a peaceful and prosperous Central Europe be
> > reestablished. It would be a tribute to Wilsonian vision, if President
> > Clinton, when, on the 26th of September, he meets the President of Romania,
> > he would use the occasion to express his support for the Danubian
> > Confederation.
> 
> Only closer ties between Serbia and Hungary (which can be materialized 
> through such a confederation) can fully solve the problem.  Giving 
> Hungarians their personal autonomy, territorial where needed (in counties 
> of Backa), and all other forms of autonomy which are of both their and 
> Serbian interest, is the way to go.  That's for sure.
> 
> Thanks for the article.  I suggest you introduce this to the Serbian 
> news-groups or organizations because only dialogue can solve the problem.
> You see what bad has done ignoring of others' interests in the Balkans' 
> case.  
> 
> > Bila Liptak is a former Yale professor, who has published many technical
> > books and has recently been invited to Budapest as a Fulbright Scholar.
> 
> Boris Bjelica
> native of Montenegro and Belgrade
> senior in Electrical Engr. at Oregon State University
Dear Mr. Bjelica

With regard to yuor very constructive comments to Mr. Liptak'a 
article, I would like to clarify some points leading 
to Vojvodina becoming part of Yugoslavia after WW I.


1. The Great Assembly (Velika narodna skupstina) of the Serbs,
 Bunjevaci and other Slav population of Banat, Bacska, and 
Baranya, held in Novi Sad on October 25, 1918, 
has made its decision based of the representation by the minority
 Slav population of Vojvodina. (At that time Slav population of 
Vojvodian amounted to 38.119% of the total 
population of Vojvodina.
The majority-61.879% of the non-Slav population of Vojvodina, 
the Hungarians, Germans, Rumanians and others were denied the 
opportunity to participate in the decision about the future 
status of Vojvodina. According to the census of 1921 the 
Serbs constituted only 28.5% of the total population of Vojvodina.
 For this reason, the decision made at the above "Great Assembly" is an illegit
imate 
Dictate imposed by a minority. 
The right for self determination has not been made accessible 
under equal conditions for the rest of the majority population of Vojvodina.
2. Many of the delegates who participated and voted in the "Great Assembly" of 
1918 
represented areas, which according to the final document of 
joining Vojvodina with Serbia, later did not become part of the Kingdom of Serb
s Croats and Slovenians.
3. Prior to the resolve of the "Great Assembly," a decision was 
made by the National Council of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenians on 
November 24, 1918, in Zagreb regarding 
the union of the Kingdom of Serbia and Montenegro. Since October 
29, 1818,  the legitimate authoritative body dealing with the status of Serbs l
iving on territories of the 
Austro-Hungarian Empire was the above National Council of Serbs, Croats and 
Slovenians, and not the "Great Assembly".
4. Regardless of the desires and the decision of the "Great 
Assembly," Banat, Bacska and Baranya, (the territories largely
equated with today's Vojvodina), by the 
International Peace Treaty of Trianon (June 4, 1920) Vojvodina 
was allotet to the 
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, and not to Serbia.  
Yet all of the above is in essence irrelevant, because the rights
of people to exist on the land where they have lived and 
prospered for centuries are not based on the ups and downs of
history. Today, the big challenge for Serbs in Serbia proper 
is wheather or not they can demonstrate their ability to coexist
with other people, or not.
I hope and trust they can.
Greetings:
Peter Kaslik
Hungarian Human Rights Monitor, Toronto

Boris Bjelica > wrote:
>
> 
> 
> On Sun, 8 Oct 1995  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hereby, I would like to respond to Mr. Bila Liptak's article, and to 
> clarify some historical facts wrt Vojvodina region.  It seems that that 
> there have been some misinterpretations of the facts.  I will do a sort 
> of reply since I believe it's good to "face" a Serbian and a Hungarian 
> point of view on an issue such as this.
>  
> >         Bila Liptak >         84 Old N. Stamford Road, Stamford, CT 06905-3
961
> >         T:203-357-7614, Fax:203-325-3922,
> >          E-Mail: 
> > 
> > It might seem that the Holbrooke-Milosevic pact will deliver justice, as it
> > makes the Bosnian Serbs to taste their own medicine. Unfortunately, the
> > domino-effect of this pact creates worst problems than what it solves and t
he
> > new victims are innocent third parties: Hungarians and Albanians. Because t
he
> > American public is totally unaware of this, I prepared the attached OP-ED
> > piece. If you need it, I can also fax you maps: Bila Liptak.
> > 
> > 
> >         The Balkan Tragedy: Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina
> > Vojvodina's population is greater than Bosnia's. A multi-cultural tapestry 
of
> > Hungarian, Croatian, Serb, German, Roma, Slovak, Romanian and Ruthenian
> > cultures flourished here for centuries. Yet, many maps don't even distingui
sh
> > Vojvodina from Serbia and few know what is happening there, because few
> > reporters ever visit Vojvodina. Yet, the process of ethnic cleansing, which
> > caused the Bosnian tragedy, has also reached Vojvodina. The majority of the
> > over 200,000 Serbs dislodged from the Krajina region of Croatia and from
> > southern Bosnia are being used to extricate the Hungarian population of
> > Vojvodina.
> >        Why is it, that by attempting to solve one problem (Bosnia), we mana
ge
> > to create two: the de- stabilizing of both Vojvodina and Kosovo? Why is it,
> > that the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina Serbs from Croatia, which our Stat
e
> > Department called  a window of opportunity for peace , and the ethnic
> > cleansing of the south-Bosnia Serbs, which is a byproduct of NATO's bombing
,
> > might not facilitate peace, and in fact, could draw the neighboring countri
es
> > of Hungary and Albania into the conflict. Why is it, that in order to make
> > Slobodan Milisevic to sign on to the American-led Contact Group's peace
> > proposal, he has to be offered a trade-off, at the expense of the Hungarian
s
> > in Vojvodina and of the Albanians in Kosovo?
> 
> A little remark.  First of all, Albanians in Kosmet currently make 90% of 
> the population (about 1.8 million).  There are only 2,000 Serbs who went 
> to Kosovo.  That can't in any way change anything.  Albanian 
> natality is the highest of Europe (38 promiles).  Their population 
> rised from 200,000 in 1945 to 2 million in 1991.
> 
> Problems of Kosmet and Vojvodina are two separate and different 
> problems.  The problem with Kosmet is historical because Serbs face the 
> extermination at their historical region.  Albanian way of life counters 
> the Serbian, and a compromise is very hard to find except some 
> territorial division.
> 
> Vojvodina is quite different.  Both Andras Agoston and Ferenc Csubela 
> (leaders of Hungarians in Serbia) advocate forms of autonomy which don't 
> oppose Serbian sovereignty.  They have wisely stated that it's more 
> important to solve Hungarian problem for all of Vojvodina by providing 
> three forms of autonomy - personal, territorial (for all of Vojvodina), 
> and ethnical.  All three exist on the paper, but they are not implemented.
> All in all, Vojvodina problem can easily be solved if Serbia shows 
> neccessary flexibility.  Those days are coming as Milosevic is leaving.  
> Serbia as a whole can prosper only if decentrilized and not directed 
> through Milosevic's office.
> 
> >       To find the answers, we have to understand the mind-set of the
> > bureaucrats in the State Department. In the Kissinger-Eagleburger cookbook,
> > the recipe for solving international problems is to mix one part of selecti
ve
> > justice with two parts of alternating determination against and appeasement
> > of the aggressors. The recipe avoids the salt of an overall plan or of a lo
ng
> > range regional concept. Bureaucrats believe that only the victors deserve
> > justice and only the losers can be found guilty. Therefore the Serbs deserv
e
> > full autonomy within Bosnia, but the minorities in Serbia, or elsewhere in
> > Central Europe do not.
> 
> Incorrect.  Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina are not a "minority".  Or to 
> put it your way, there are 3 minorities in BH - Muslim, Croat, and Serb.  
> All three have the right to self-determination.  
> 
> Minorities in Serbia do deserve the autonomy, though.
> 
> >        For most of the last 1100 years, Vojvodina was part of Hungary. Only
> > after the dismemberment of the Hungarian Kingdom and the creation of such
> > unnatural entities as Yugoslavia in 1918-20, did Vojvodina become an
> > autonomous region of that federation. According to the 1974 Yugoslav
> > constitution, Vojvodina should be an autonomous province of Yugoslavia (not
> > Serbia!) This autonomy, and that of Kosovo, were arbitrarily rescinded in
> > 1990.
> 
> This paragraph is very much misleading.  The fact is that region k.a. 
> Vojvodina has been mostly part of Austrian and Hungarian countries.  But, 
> the region of original Vojvodina (Banat, Backa, Baranja) declared its 
> unification with Kingdom of Serbia in 1918.  First it became a part of 
> the Kingdom of Serbia (which militarilly took over the region), and then 
> Kingdom of Serbia got united with Austrian dominated areas of Yugoslavia 
> to form the SCS Kingdom ("Yugoslavia").
> 
> Your statement w.r.t. Vojvodinian autonomy as part of Yugoslavia, but not 
> Serbia is a misinterpretation.  Since 1918, Vojvodina ("the land of 
> Dukes" in Serbian) was in every Serbian constitution regarded as its 
> integral part.
> 
> The "yogurt" revolution in 1988 (NOT 1990!!!) led to the Vojvodinian loss 
> of the previous form of autonomy.  The "revolution" was led by 
> Vojvodinian politicians loyal to Milosevic, primarily Mihaly Kertesz and 
> Nedeljko Sipovac.  
> 
> After all, your country (U.S.) has taken an active part on dismembering 
> Yugoslavia, so why do you refer to a "Yugoslav" constitution which was 
> heavily violated by the U.S.?
> 
> >        Vojvodina is the breadbasket of Serbian-Yugoslavia. It is already it
's
> > most densely populated region, consisting of the Srem, which was part of
> > Croatia-Slavonia until 1918, Backa, which was part of Hungary and the weste
rn
> > part of Banat, also part of Hungary. The Hungarians did not get involved in
> > the Bosnian war. They did not side with any of the warring factions.
> > Consequently they are being treated as enemies by all.
> 
> Srem was a part of Austria until 1918.  Parts of Belgrade (Zemun, Novi 
> Beograd) are in Srem.
> 
> It is not true that Vojvodina is most densely populated region. It is 
> Kosovo and Metokhia (not just "Kosovo").  Kosmet, twice smaller in size, 
> has 2 mill. people as well as Vojvodina.
> 
> >      Today Croatia and Serbia are getting ready to fight over the Hungarian
> > villages of Eastern Slavonia. Croatia is also furthering her ethnic purity 
by
> > quadrupling the taxes on the Adriatic vacation homes of Vojvodina Hungarian
s,
> > which, under the present economic conditions is the same as confiscating
> > them. Yet, this is nothing compared to what the Serbs are doing to the
> > Vojvodina Hungarians.
> 
> Appendix: "Comparing" is always a bad business.  Hungarians have paid a 
> big price in Slavonia once already.  Their villages in Baranja region were 
> emptied in 1991 when Serbs and Croats clashed.
> 
> >        At the time of Hungary's dismemberment in 1920, Vojvodina's Serb
> > population was only 25%. Through expulsions, and other forms of uprooting o
f
> > the non-Serb population and by importing Serb colonialists, the Serbian
> > population by 1948, has increased to 55%. During the Communist era, this
> > ethnic cleansing process has further intensified, and by 1991 the Hungarian
> > population of Vojvodina was reduced to 17%.  Today, only 350,000 Hungarians
> > remain in Vojvodina and the only compact cluster of Hungarian presence that
> > survives is in the north-central part, along the Tisza river. It is this
> >  problem  that the Serb refugees from the Krajina and south-Bosnia are
> > supposed to  solve .
> 
> This is more less correct.  But you disregard that today's Vojvodina 
> includes Srem (which was predominantly Serbian prior to 1918) and 
> excludes Baranja.  In 1920, there were 29% of the Serbs in Baranja, 
> Banat, and Backa.  Today's Vojvodina has 57.7% of Serbs. The number of 
> "Serbian" Hungarians is higher than stated (they number about 450,000), but 
> many have left Serbia due to war draftings (as well as 250,000 young Serbs). 
 
> Milosevic' regime still doesn't grant them amnesty, but amnesty is a part 
> of the Holbrooke-Milosevic deal.
> 
> It is quite true that different methods of colonialism were introduced to 
> Vojvodina, but it's silly to blame only Serbs for that.  First of all, 
> Banat region had some 450,000 Germans which were all brutally expelled in 
> 1945 due to "their involvement in Nazi genocide", as Tito's Communists 
> stated. That was a genocide itself because today no traces of German 
> culture can  be found- churches, cemetaries, etc. -traces of German 
> culture are not detectable anymore.  
> 
> Please note that colonialism which took place in 1945-1950 was mainly 
> directed towards these formerly German regions.  It's quite clear today 
> that Croat Josip Broz Tito started bringing Krajina and Bosnian Serbs to 
> these regions in order to "homogenize" Croatia.  The fact is that 
> Hungarians and others pay the price, but things are not black-white; it 
> wasn't exactly the Serbs who should be blamed. 
> 
> >  According to the Democratic Community of Hungarians in Vojvodina:  The
> > Hungarians of Vojvodina are facing the danger of a FINAL SOLUTION, because
> > Vojvodina is being purged of its non-Serb popula tion.  According to them,
> > the Croat victory in the Krajina and in south-Bosnia was so swift, because
> > this  population transfer  has already been agreed to by both the Serbs and
> > the Croats.
> >        Bila Csorba, a Hungarian MP in the Serb-Yugoslav Parliament, describ
ed
> > the ethnic cleansing of a small Hungarian village named Svilojevo (Szilagyi
)
> > in this manner:  The Krajina Serbs cruised up and down the streets of Apati
n,
> > Sombor, Sonta and Svilojevo. On August 11, 1995 homes were confiscated from
> > their owners. By the time we have arrived to investigate, the village was
> > almost completely abandoned by its original inhabitants.
> 
> That is unfortunately an outcome of the war.  Criminals should pay for 
> that, and people should go back home.  "Highlander Serbs" (as Bosnian and 
> Krajina ones are called) certainly should go back home.  But it 
> unfortunately seems unlikely as long as Tudjman's regime is in place, and 
> as long as Milosevic is in power. 
> 
> To my knowledge, Serbian police has kicked the refugees out, and houses 
> were given back to their owners.  But your point is clear -  it is very 
> hard to feel free when things like that happen.
>  
> >        Part of the problem is due to the difference in the personalities
> > between the Krajina Serbs and the Vojvodina Hungarians. The Krajina Serbs
> > have a warrior mentality, they carry guns, for centuries they have been in
> > uninterrupted conflict with the Croats, their view of life is based on
> > constant struggle and hate for one's neighbors, their personality correspon
ds
> > to the rugged terrain they have inherited. The placidity of Vojvodina
> > Hungarians corresponds to the openness of their fertile plains. Yet, their
> > friendly and mild personality does not mean, that their patience is
> > unlimited. They are a strong and determined people. Monica Seles is a
> > Vojvodina Hungarian.
> 
> Absolutely true.  The same is for Vojvodinian Serbs.
> 
> >        Politicians who push Hungarians to the limit, should remember 1915,
> > the only time when Serbia was occupied in this century, or 1956, when the R
ed
> > Army learned, what happens, when Hungarians lose their temper. Hungary has
> > already accepted some 50,000 Hungarian and some 100,000 non-Hungarian
> > refugees from the disintegrating Yugoslavia. This economic burden, combined
> > with the loss of Hungary's southern markets, is testing her frail economy t
o
> > the limit. She has already protested the ethnic cleansing of Vojvodina and
> > will have no choice, but to defend her interests more forcefully if this
> > process continues.
> >      So what should be done in the microcosm of Vojvodina and in the
> > macrocosm of Central Europe?
> >      To Vojvodina, UN and NATO observers should be dispatched immediately,
> > and the restoration of her autonomy should be made an integral part of any
> > overall peace agreement.
> 
> Autonomy should be redefined, that's for sure.  But if "NATO" or any 
> other Serbian declared enemies (NATO killed more than 1,000 Serbs, 
> wounded several thousand, destroyed bridges, communications, and many 
> civilian buildings) come, that's certainly not good. That will only stir 
> the Balkan mixture even more.  Think about it.  "Dispatching" troops or 
> "observers" won't change anything.  If Krajina Serbs and other radical 
> elements remain in Vojvodina, they will even more frighten the minorities 
> by their individual actions, and that will lead to an even worse 
> situation for Hungarians.  The solution must be found in democraticizing 
> Serbia.  Americans all think that humiliating Serbs and Serbia is the 
> answer.  That's been proven wrong last 5 years and indirectly caused 
> horrible sufferings of the Balkan peoples.  Serbs as whole are quite 
> different by the region they come from, but all have one thing in common - 
> that is "pride".  Even usually peacefull Vojvodina Serbs have shown 
> to be very nationalistic with regard to the war.
> 
> >      As to the whole of Central Europe, it is essential to replace the
> > practice of selective justice and appeasement of aggressors with  clearly
> > defined overall goals and with uniform standards that are applicable to all
.
> > Richard Holbrooke is right, when he wants to provide group rights to all
> > three ethnic groups in Bosnia, but he is wrong, if he wants to limit these
> > rights only to Bosnia. There will be no peace in Central Europe, until all
> > ethnic groups are guaranteed their autonomy.
> >      On the other hand, once the ethnic tensions are eliminated through the
> > universal guarantee of cultural autonomy, the root cause of the upheavals i
n
> > the Balkans can also be solved. It is  power vacuum  in the region.
> > Throughout history, the Balkans were stable only, when a local power in the
> > Danubian Basin guaranteed it. The present power vacuum can only be eliminat
ed
> > through the formation of an economically self-sufficient, politically stabl
e
> > and militarily neutral Danubian Confederation.
> 
> You are right, but contradict yourself.  Your way is "slap Serbia, and 
> then it's all OK".  Yes, from a Hungaro-centric point of view, you are 
> right.  All you wrote would be so great if it didn't have negative 
> consequences to it.  The history can't be reversed, and Serbs will never 
> get their "heart" back (Kosmet, the heart of medieval Serbia), they are 
> kicked out of their Krajina (the "fender" Austro-Hungarian empire against 
> the Turks).  Also, Vojvodinian pop. ratio from 1918 can't be reclaimed.  
> The least civilized people can do in Serbia is fight through the democratic 
> institutions.  Serbia needs help, it needs democracy.
> 
> >        In 1920, President Wilson felt, that only through the formation of a
> > Danubian Confederation can a peaceful and prosperous Central Europe be
> > reestablished. It would be a tribute to Wilsonian vision, if President
> > Clinton, when, on the 26th of September, he meets the President of Romania,
> > he would use the occasion to express his support for the Danubian
> > Confederation.
> 
> Only closer ties between Serbia and Hungary (which can be materialized 
> through such a confederation) can fully solve the problem.  Giving 
> Hungarians their personal autonomy, territorial where needed (in counties 
> of Backa), and all other forms of autonomy which are of both their and 
> Serbian interest, is the way to go.  That's for sure.
> 
> Thanks for the article.  I suggest you introduce this to the Serbian 
> news-groups or organizations because only dialogue can solve the problem.
> You see what bad has done ignoring of others' interests in the Balkans' 
> case.  
> 
> > Bila Liptak is a former Yale professor, who has published many technical
> > books and has recently been invited to Budapest as a Fulbright Scholar.
> 
> Boris Bjelica
> native of Montenegro and Belgrade
> senior in Electrical Engr. at Oregon State University
Dear Mr. Bjelica

With regard to yuor very constructive comments to Mr. Liptak'a 
article, I would like to clarify some points leading 
to Vojvodina becoming part of Yugoslavia after WW I.


1. The Great Assembly (Velika narodna skupstina) of the Serbs,
 Bunjevaci and other Slav population of Banat, Bacska, and 
Baranya, held in Novi Sad on October 25, 1918, 
has made its decision based of the representation by the minority
 Slav population of Vojvodina. (At that time Slav population of 
Vojvodian amounted to 38.119% of the total 
population of Vojvodina.
The majority-61.879% of the non-Slav population of Vojvodina, 
the Hungarians, Germans, Rumanians and others were denied the 
opportunity to participate in the decision about the future 
status of Vojvodina. According to the census of 1921 the 
Serbs constituted only 28.5% of the total population of Vojvodina.
 For this reason, the decision made at the above "Great Assembly" is an illegit
imate 
Dictate imposed by a minority. 
The right for self determination has not been made accessible 
under equal conditions for the rest of the majority population of Vojvodina.
2. Many of the delegates who participated and voted in the "Great Assembly" of 
1918 
represented areas, which according to the final document of 
joining Vojvodina with Serbia, later did not become part of the Kingdom of Serb
s Croats and Slovenians.
3. Prior to the resolve of the "Great Assembly," a decision was 
made by the National Council of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenians on 
November 24, 1918, in Zagreb regarding 
the union of the Kingdom of Serbia and Montenegro. Since October 
29, 1818,  the legitimate authoritative body dealing with the status of Serbs l
iving on territories of the 
Austro-Hungarian Empire was the above National Council of Serbs, Croats and 
Slovenians, and not the "Great Assembly".
4. Regardless of the desires and the decision of the "Great 
Assembly," Banat, Bacska and Baranya, (the territories largely
equated with today's Vojvodina), by the 
International Peace Treaty of Trianon (June 4, 1920) Vojvodina 
was allotet to the 
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, and not to Serbia.  
Yet all of the above is in essence irrelevant, because the rights
of people to exist on the land where they have lived and 
prospered for centuries are not based on the ups and downs of
history. The greatness of a nation is reflected  
in its ability to coexist with other people as part of
the human family. Today, the big challenge for Serbs in Serbia
proper is wheather or not they can demonstrate 
the ability to guarantie the future survival of 350,000 ethnic 
Hungarians in Vojvodina. 

I hope and trust they can.
Greetings:
Peter Kaslik
Hungarian Human Rights Monitor, Toronto

In >,  (Wally Keeler) writes:
>From:  (LONG SHLONG)
>Subject: Re:Tomi Angi: I love U, U love me...
>
> <CUT>
>
>>TOM ANGI taking it IN
>Wally Keeler					Poetry

I seem to have missed something here, that seemed to have nothing to do with 
Magyar, was not Social and was certainly not Cultural.

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista akit is
merek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom 
hogy bistosz van aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzel
d el, bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis 
nem kabittota mindenkit el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, j
atszunk egy jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek 
Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem hogy csa
k ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni 
Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista 
akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom hogy bistosz van 
aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzeld el, 
bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis nem kabittota mindenkit 
el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, jatszunk egy 
jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo 
fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem 
hogy csak ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Hello Magyar Forum!

Elnezest, az Internet tudasom kevesebb mint a Magyar nyelvem...

Kanadaban szulettem 63ban. Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok. Csupa fascista akit is
merek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is. Tudom 
hogy bistosz van aki olvasza Konrad konyveit es van intellectual es meg, kepzel
d el, bisztos bal oldali emberrek. Cola meg Levis 
nem kabittota mindenkit el...it SZINGAPORBAN vagyok, es ugy nez ki...ugyanis, j
atszunk egy jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek 
Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo fascista?

Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni? Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem hogy csa
k ijen szimplan es fekete/feheren tudok vinyogni 
Magyarul!

Hi Alexander!

I have the feeling that from now on our postings on this thread will shrink
because there seem to be more and more converging views... :-)

In article >,  (Alexander Bossy) 
writes:

[...]
|> 
|> 	Hi Matyas:
|> 
|> 	Your request is fair enough, but unfortunately i just don't have 
|> the resources here in the U.S. to satisfy it. My interpretation of 
|> Mcartney's paragraph, though, leads me to beleive that there were 
|> Hungarian-language state high schools because he specifically mentioned 
|> that there were no Romanian-language state high schools.

Seems to me that the best thing to do would be to postpone this part of the
thread till some concrete examples of schools will be posted either by you, or
by someone else.

[...]

|> 
|> : |> :  But, when 
|> : |> : |> Hungarians demand educational rights today, I do believe that an 
|> : |> : |> acknowledgement that what happened last century was wrong would he
lp.  
|> : |> 
|> : |> : What do these two have to do with one another?
|> : |> 
|> : |> 	Because history remains very much alive not only in the Balkans, 
|> : |> but also in neighboring regions, like Transylvania.  To pretend that et
hnic 
|> : |> Romanians have, or will soon, forget what they see as "Hungarian 
|> : |> oppression" is shortsighted.  A better approach is to acknowledge the 
|> : |> wrong that happened last century, and make sure that similar wrongs do 
|> : |> not happen - or continue to happen - today.
|> 
|> : I must repeat that Romanians (not only yoy) must also acknowledge the wron
g
|> : they did to Hungarians in Transylvania during the "Romanian oppression" ;-
)
|> : (because we may see it as such as well...). On the other hand I don't thin
k
|> : that asking for this kind of acknowledgements from either side is good, i.
e.
|> : it only leads to dead ends (if you don't I won't either...)
|> 
|> 	What I have really learned by following these threads is that we 
|> are taught very different versions of history.  I know that I was not 
|> brought up to think badly of Hungarians - so there was no overt attempt 
|> by my family to "indoctrinate" me with a Romanian nationalist version of 
|> history.  Most of the Hungarians that I have met on the net also seem to 
|> have no anti-Romanian indoctination.  Yet, we do have very different 
|> versions of history.  Even when people whom I know are well-meaning 
|> moderates post, they occassionally say things that make my skin crawl.  
|> The prime example of this is talking about the "Vienna decision" rather 
|> than the Vienna diktat.  I'm sure that there are things that I post that 
|> moderate Hungarians find as unsettling.  In neither case are the words 
|> posted in order to worsen ethnic relations.  But, among the 
|> ultranationalists at any rate, they do.  The only way that I can see to 
|> overcome this kind of a problem is to start learning more about what the 
|> other side remembers, fears, and feels.  While I don't think that the 
|> Romanian and the Hungarian versions of history will ever completely meld 
|> in many other cases, a synthesis is possible.  As we manage to fill in 
|> the forgotten (or conveniently ignored) parts of our history we can 
|> actually achieve the "historical reconciliation" that Iliescu now says he 
|> supports.

Maybe you shouldn't have mentioned this last thing, because in my eyes that's
pure propaganda. If someone more credible had said it, yes... ;-)

Anyway, I agree that there is a difference between the two versions of history.
However I don't make the historical issue of great importance for me and as you
should have noted, besides problems concerning education I have never posted
on a history oriented thread. But I have the part of history I have lived. And
thinking back of it and comparing it with today makes me sad: I went to school 
to one of the old Hunagrian language high schools in Transylvania. In my town
there were Romanian language high schools as well (and one German too). But 
there were absolutely no conflicts either between schools or between parents.
Every student could proudly wear the badge with the name of his/her school and
nobody has ever had a problem with that. The only competition was that in sport
s
or various subjects (math, physiscs,...), but at least in the latters one had
to use his/her brains and pencil. Have all those times gone with the end (?) of
communism? 

[...]

|> : i.e. a Nation (nemzet) as opposed to a state/country (orszag).|>
|> 
|> 	Actually, the English word "nation" has both meanings.  I 
|> understand precisely what you mean.

I know. That's why I tried to stress the difference.


|> : |> 	You are looking at it in reverse.  The Hungarian and Romanian 
|> : |> governments will both sign the treaty - but only WHEN things change for
 
|> : |> Romania's Hungarian minority.
|> 
|> : Maybe they will (even without the WHEN) because they both want to be accep
ted
|> : in the European organozations, and at a certain point this may be more imp
ortant
|> : to them than playing their domestic policy cards. 
|> 
|> 	Given that the European Parliament unanimously condemnd the new 
|> Romanian education law, I don't think that Romania would be accepted 
|> without some changes.  It's to bad that changes are necessary, but I 
|> think that Romania will be a better country because of the inevitable 
|> changes.

Allow me to be skeptical on this one - I can't help it :-(

|> 
|> : !!! after all if killing "african Americans" was OK, why isn't it OK for t
hem
|> : to kill white people? (is this the rationale?). I don't think so: times ha
ve
|> : changed... or at least should have.
|> 
|> 	If progress was really as steady as we like to think it is, then 
|> we'd all be living in utopia.  Times don't change nearly as much as we 
|> pretend that they do.  The only major difference that I can see in the 
|> world of today compared of the world of the mid-19th Century is that 
|> slavery is substantially restricted to Africa, the Islamic World, and 
|> parts of the Orient, and is officially outlawed in every country.  For 
|> most peoples, the amount of personal freedom hasn't increased (and till 
|> the fall of the Soviet block, for all to many it had substantially 
|> decreased).  Not much possitive change.  :-(

:-(

|> 
|> : P.S. Sorry for the possible typos, but I typed this in a great hurry.
|> 
|> 	Not to worry.  It isn't typos that stop me from posting in 
|> Hungarian. ;-) 
|> 
|> 	Alexander

Matyas



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In article > Nagy Peter,  writes:
>Szemelyeskedo hozzaszolasod arra enged kovetkeztetni,

Kis orszag vagyunk, mindenki ismer mindenkit, igenis szemelyesked-
junk. Ki, mit, mikor, hogyan, mennyiert, hanyszor.... Miert tor ki mindig
panik, mikor ilyesmi kerul szoba ? A gazembersegrol, gazemberekrol
miert csak altalanos alanyt hasznalva szabad beszelni ?

>hogy melto tagja
>lehettel volna a FORUM torzskozonsegenek a legnagyobb csetepatek idejen
>is.

Az ki van csukva. Sok a stilusbeli kulonbseg. Raadasul a Zetenyi-Takacs
torvenytervezettel -szinten elvi okokbol - en sem ertettem egyet.  En a
lampavas/kotel megoldas lelkes hive voltam. De ezt mar leirtam itt egy-
szer.

>Mert mit is mondasz:  szoval ha zavarja a
>lekadarjugendezetteket az elnevezesbeli Hitler-Kadar parhuzam, akkor
>ez csak azert lehet, "mert szivuk melyen meg mindig kedvelik az oreget". 
>A lefasisztazas-vonzatot csak a "jugend"-bol veled felismerni.

Akarhogy csurod-csavarod, a 'jugend' a konnotacio hordozoja. A Kadar-
ifjusag semleges kifejezes lenne.  Hogy miert jutott ez Arpi eszebe,
hat a fene tudja... Elegge szivattuk, oszt' kiakadt, mit a kakukkosora.
O biztos fasizmusra gondolt, hisz' napirtenden volt az egyenlosegjel
kitetele a kommunizmus es fasizmus koze.

>Tetszik a logikad!

Koszi.

>Miutan megjegyzem, hogy mennyire nem tetszik nekem a Kadar-Jugend
>elnevezes, kifejezed a gyanudat, hogy szerinted csak azoknak nem
>tetszik, akik egykor KISZ-titkarok, opportunista kommunistak voltak
>"piszkos anyagiak" miatt, ma pedig libi zsurfiuk, stb.

Csak talalgatok, hogy miert serthet teged ez a jelzo. Engem nem bant,
pedig szociologiailag igaz ram is. A kesoi-Kadar  korszakban nottem
fel, nyilvan a kor meghagyta a nyomat rajtam. Nnem politikailag ertem,
ebbol a szempontbol szerencses vagyok, hanem tarsadalmi-viselkede-
si stilusra meg egyebekre gondolok.

>Meg arra sincs kedvem, hogy elkezdjem cafolgatni amit irtal.  Minek?
>Szavamat se hinned. 

Latom, tiszta lappal indulok nalad, nincsenek eloiteleteid velem
szemben. Ez jo. A kolcsonos tisztelet az rendkivul fontos tud lenni,
ha az ember komolyan akar vitatkozni.  :) :)

>Ha kedved van erdemi parbeszedet folytatni, rendben.

En elkezdtem az erdemi parbeszedet, tippeltem egyet (hogy mi banthat)
erre jott a valasz, hogy hulyesegeken jar az eszem. De nem kozolted a
tenyleges okot, hogy mi bant.

Tamas

ziccer:
Most mar nagyon furdalja az oldalamat a kivancsisag, hogy az elozo
eletedben kisztitkar voltal-e vagy nem ? ;^)

Boris Bjelica > wrote:
>
> 
> 
> On Sun, 8 Oct 1995  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hereby, I would like to respond to Mr. Bila Liptak's article, and to 
> clarify some historical facts wrt Vojvodina region.  It seems that that 
> there have been some misinterpretations of the facts.  I will do a sort 
> of reply since I believe it's good to "face" a Serbian and a Hungarian 
> point of view on an issue such as this.
>  
> >         Bila Liptak >         84 Old N. Stamford Road, Stamford, CT 06905-3
961
> >         T:203-357-7614, Fax:203-325-3922,
> >          E-Mail: 
> > 
> > It might seem that the Holbrooke-Milosevic pact will deliver justice, as it
> > makes the Bosnian Serbs to taste their own medicine. Unfortunately, the
> > domino-effect of this pact creates worst problems than what it solves and t
he
> > new victims are innocent third parties: Hungarians and Albanians. Because t
he
> > American public is totally unaware of this, I prepared the attached OP-ED
> > piece. If you need it, I can also fax you maps: Bila Liptak.
> > 
> > 
> >         The Balkan Tragedy: Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina
> > Vojvodina's population is greater than Bosnia's. A multi-cultural tapestry 
of
> > Hungarian, Croatian, Serb, German, Roma, Slovak, Romanian and Ruthenian
> > cultures flourished here for centuries. Yet, many maps don't even distingui
sh
> > Vojvodina from Serbia and few know what is happening there, because few
> > reporters ever visit Vojvodina. Yet, the process of ethnic cleansing, which
> > caused the Bosnian tragedy, has also reached Vojvodina. The majority of the
> > over 200,000 Serbs dislodged from the Krajina region of Croatia and from
> > southern Bosnia are being used to extricate the Hungarian population of
> > Vojvodina.
> >        Why is it, that by attempting to solve one problem (Bosnia), we mana
ge
> > to create two: the de- stabilizing of both Vojvodina and Kosovo? Why is it,
> > that the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina Serbs from Croatia, which our Stat
e
> > Department called  a window of opportunity for peace , and the ethnic
> > cleansing of the south-Bosnia Serbs, which is a byproduct of NATO's bombing
,
> > might not facilitate peace, and in fact, could draw the neighboring countri
es
> > of Hungary and Albania into the conflict. Why is it, that in order to make
> > Slobodan Milisevic to sign on to the American-led Contact Group's peace
> > proposal, he has to be offered a trade-off, at the expense of the Hungarian
s
> > in Vojvodina and of the Albanians in Kosovo?
> 
> A little remark.  First of all, Albanians in Kosmet currently make 90% of 
> the population (about 1.8 million).  There are only 2,000 Serbs who went 
> to Kosovo.  That can't in any way change anything.  Albanian 
> natality is the highest of Europe (38 promiles).  Their population 
> rised from 200,000 in 1945 to 2 million in 1991.
> 
> Problems of Kosmet and Vojvodina are two separate and different 
> problems.  The problem with Kosmet is historical because Serbs face the 
> extermination at their historical region.  Albanian way of life counters 
> the Serbian, and a compromise is very hard to find except some 
> territorial division.
> 
> Vojvodina is quite different.  Both Andras Agoston and Ferenc Csubela 
> (leaders of Hungarians in Serbia) advocate forms of autonomy which don't 
> oppose Serbian sovereignty.  They have wisely stated that it's more 
> important to solve Hungarian problem for all of Vojvodina by providing 
> three forms of autonomy - personal, territorial (for all of Vojvodina), 
> and ethnical.  All three exist on the paper, but they are not implemented.
> All in all, Vojvodina problem can easily be solved if Serbia shows 
> neccessary flexibility.  Those days are coming as Milosevic is leaving.  
> Serbia as a whole can prosper only if decentrilized and not directed 
> through Milosevic's office.
> 
> >       To find the answers, we have to understand the mind-set of the
> > bureaucrats in the State Department. In the Kissinger-Eagleburger cookbook,
> > the recipe for solving international problems is to mix one part of selecti
ve
> > justice with two parts of alternating determination against and appeasement
> > of the aggressors. The recipe avoids the salt of an overall plan or of a lo
ng
> > range regional concept. Bureaucrats believe that only the victors deserve
> > justice and only the losers can be found guilty. Therefore the Serbs deserv
e
> > full autonomy within Bosnia, but the minorities in Serbia, or elsewhere in
> > Central Europe do not.
> 
> Incorrect.  Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina are not a "minority".  Or to 
> put it your way, there are 3 minorities in BH - Muslim, Croat, and Serb.  
> All three have the right to self-determination.  
> 
> Minorities in Serbia do deserve the autonomy, though.
> 
> >        For most of the last 1100 years, Vojvodina was part of Hungary. Only
> > after the dismemberment of the Hungarian Kingdom and the creation of such
> > unnatural entities as Yugoslavia in 1918-20, did Vojvodina become an
> > autonomous region of that federation. According to the 1974 Yugoslav
> > constitution, Vojvodina should be an autonomous province of Yugoslavia (not
> > Serbia!) This autonomy, and that of Kosovo, were arbitrarily rescinded in
> > 1990.
> 
> This paragraph is very much misleading.  The fact is that region k.a. 
> Vojvodina has been mostly part of Austrian and Hungarian countries.  But, 
> the region of original Vojvodina (Banat, Backa, Baranja) declared its 
> unification with Kingdom of Serbia in 1918.  First it became a part of 
> the Kingdom of Serbia (which militarilly took over the region), and then 
> Kingdom of Serbia got united with Austrian dominated areas of Yugoslavia 
> to form the SCS Kingdom ("Yugoslavia").
> 
> Your statement w.r.t. Vojvodinian autonomy as part of Yugoslavia, but not 
> Serbia is a misinterpretation.  Since 1918, Vojvodina ("the land of 
> Dukes" in Serbian) was in every Serbian constitution regarded as its 
> integral part.
> 
> The "yogurt" revolution in 1988 (NOT 1990!!!) led to the Vojvodinian loss 
> of the previous form of autonomy.  The "revolution" was led by 
> Vojvodinian politicians loyal to Milosevic, primarily Mihaly Kertesz and 
> Nedeljko Sipovac.  
> 
> After all, your country (U.S.) has taken an active part on dismembering 
> Yugoslavia, so why do you refer to a "Yugoslav" constitution which was 
> heavily violated by the U.S.?
> 
> >        Vojvodina is the breadbasket of Serbian-Yugoslavia. It is already it
's
> > most densely populated region, consisting of the Srem, which was part of
> > Croatia-Slavonia until 1918, Backa, which was part of Hungary and the weste
rn
> > part of Banat, also part of Hungary. The Hungarians did not get involved in
> > the Bosnian war. They did not side with any of the warring factions.
> > Consequently they are being treated as enemies by all.
> 
> Srem was a part of Austria until 1918.  Parts of Belgrade (Zemun, Novi 
> Beograd) are in Srem.
> 
> It is not true that Vojvodina is most densely populated region. It is 
> Kosovo and Metokhia (not just "Kosovo").  Kosmet, twice smaller in size, 
> has 2 mill. people as well as Vojvodina.
> 
> >      Today Croatia and Serbia are getting ready to fight over the Hungarian
> > villages of Eastern Slavonia. Croatia is also furthering her ethnic purity 
by
> > quadrupling the taxes on the Adriatic vacation homes of Vojvodina Hungarian
s,
> > which, under the present economic conditions is the same as confiscating
> > them. Yet, this is nothing compared to what the Serbs are doing to the
> > Vojvodina Hungarians.
> 
> Appendix: "Comparing" is always a bad business.  Hungarians have paid a 
> big price in Slavonia once already.  Their villages in Baranja region were 
> emptied in 1991 when Serbs and Croats clashed.
> 
> >        At the time of Hungary's dismemberment in 1920, Vojvodina's Serb
> > population was only 25%. Through expulsions, and other forms of uprooting o
f
> > the non-Serb population and by importing Serb colonialists, the Serbian
> > population by 1948, has increased to 55%. During the Communist era, this
> > ethnic cleansing process has further intensified, and by 1991 the Hungarian
> > population of Vojvodina was reduced to 17%.  Today, only 350,000 Hungarians
> > remain in Vojvodina and the only compact cluster of Hungarian presence that
> > survives is in the north-central part, along the Tisza river. It is this
> >  problem  that the Serb refugees from the Krajina and south-Bosnia are
> > supposed to  solve .
> 
> This is more less correct.  But you disregard that today's Vojvodina 
> includes Srem (which was predominantly Serbian prior to 1918) and 
> excludes Baranja.  In 1920, there were 29% of the Serbs in Baranja, 
> Banat, and Backa.  Today's Vojvodina has 57.7% of Serbs. The number of 
> "Serbian" Hungarians is higher than stated (they number about 450,000), but 
> many have left Serbia due to war draftings (as well as 250,000 young Serbs). 
 
> Milosevic' regime still doesn't grant them amnesty, but amnesty is a part 
> of the Holbrooke-Milosevic deal.
> 
> It is quite true that different methods of colonialism were introduced to 
> Vojvodina, but it's silly to blame only Serbs for that.  First of all, 
> Banat region had some 450,000 Germans which were all brutally expelled in 
> 1945 due to "their involvement in Nazi genocide", as Tito's Communists 
> stated. That was a genocide itself because today no traces of German 
> culture can  be found- churches, cemetaries, etc. -traces of German 
> culture are not detectable anymore.  
> 
> Please note that colonialism which took place in 1945-1950 was mainly 
> directed towards these formerly German regions.  It's quite clear today 
> that Croat Josip Broz Tito started bringing Krajina and Bosnian Serbs to 
> these regions in order to "homogenize" Croatia.  The fact is that 
> Hungarians and others pay the price, but things are not black-white; it 
> wasn't exactly the Serbs who should be blamed. 
> 
> >  According to the Democratic Community of Hungarians in Vojvodina:  The
> > Hungarians of Vojvodina are facing the danger of a FINAL SOLUTION, because
> > Vojvodina is being purged of its non-Serb popula tion.  According to them,
> > the Croat victory in the Krajina and in south-Bosnia was so swift, because
> > this  population transfer  has already been agreed to by both the Serbs and
> > the Croats.
> >        Bila Csorba, a Hungarian MP in the Serb-Yugoslav Parliament, describ
ed
> > the ethnic cleansing of a small Hungarian village named Svilojevo (Szilagyi
)
> > in this manner:  The Krajina Serbs cruised up and down the streets of Apati
n,
> > Sombor, Sonta and Svilojevo. On August 11, 1995 homes were confiscated from
> > their owners. By the time we have arrived to investigate, the village was
> > almost completely abandoned by its original inhabitants.
> 
> That is unfortunately an outcome of the war.  Criminals should pay for 
> that, and people should go back home.  "Highlander Serbs" (as Bosnian and 
> Krajina ones are called) certainly should go back home.  But it 
> unfortunately seems unlikely as long as Tudjman's regime is in place, and 
> as long as Milosevic is in power. 
> 
> To my knowledge, Serbian police has kicked the refugees out, and houses 
> were given back to their owners.  But your point is clear -  it is very 
> hard to feel free when things like that happen.
>  
> >        Part of the problem is due to the difference in the personalities
> > between the Krajina Serbs and the Vojvodina Hungarians. The Krajina Serbs
> > have a warrior mentality, they carry guns, for centuries they have been in
> > uninterrupted conflict with the Croats, their view of life is based on
> > constant struggle and hate for one's neighbors, their personality correspon
ds
> > to the rugged terrain they have inherited. The placidity of Vojvodina
> > Hungarians corresponds to the openness of their fertile plains. Yet, their
> > friendly and mild personality does not mean, that their patience is
> > unlimited. They are a strong and determined people. Monica Seles is a
> > Vojvodina Hungarian.
> 
> Absolutely true.  The same is for Vojvodinian Serbs.
> 
> >        Politicians who push Hungarians to the limit, should remember 1915,
> > the only time when Serbia was occupied in this century, or 1956, when the R
ed
> > Army learned, what happens, when Hungarians lose their temper. Hungary has
> > already accepted some 50,000 Hungarian and some 100,000 non-Hungarian
> > refugees from the disintegrating Yugoslavia. This economic burden, combined
> > with the loss of Hungary's southern markets, is testing her frail economy t
o
> > the limit. She has already protested the ethnic cleansing of Vojvodina and
> > will have no choice, but to defend her interests more forcefully if this
> > process continues.
> >      So what should be done in the microcosm of Vojvodina and in the
> > macrocosm of Central Europe?
> >      To Vojvodina, UN and NATO observers should be dispatched immediately,
> > and the restoration of her autonomy should be made an integral part of any
> > overall peace agreement.
> 
> Autonomy should be redefined, that's for sure.  But if "NATO" or any 
> other Serbian declared enemies (NATO killed more than 1,000 Serbs, 
> wounded several thousand, destroyed bridges, communications, and many 
> civilian buildings) come, that's certainly not good. That will only stir 
> the Balkan mixture even more.  Think about it.  "Dispatching" troops or 
> "observers" won't change anything.  If Krajina Serbs and other radical 
> elements remain in Vojvodina, they will even more frighten the minorities 
> by their individual actions, and that will lead to an even worse 
> situation for Hungarians.  The solution must be found in democraticizing 
> Serbia.  Americans all think that humiliating Serbs and Serbia is the 
> answer.  That's been proven wrong last 5 years and indirectly caused 
> horrible sufferings of the Balkan peoples.  Serbs as whole are quite 
> different by the region they come from, but all have one thing in common - 
> that is "pride".  Even usually peacefull Vojvodina Serbs have shown 
> to be very nationalistic with regard to the war.
> 
> >      As to the whole of Central Europe, it is essential to replace the
> > practice of selective justice and appeasement of aggressors with  clearly
> > defined overall goals and with uniform standards that are applicable to all
.
> > Richard Holbrooke is right, when he wants to provide group rights to all
> > three ethnic groups in Bosnia, but he is wrong, if he wants to limit these
> > rights only to Bosnia. There will be no peace in Central Europe, until all
> > ethnic groups are guaranteed their autonomy.
> >      On the other hand, once the ethnic tensions are eliminated through the
> > universal guarantee of cultural autonomy, the root cause of the upheavals i
n
> > the Balkans can also be solved. It is  power vacuum  in the region.
> > Throughout history, the Balkans were stable only, when a local power in the
> > Danubian Basin guaranteed it. The present power vacuum can only be eliminat
ed
> > through the formation of an economically self-sufficient, politically stabl
e
> > and militarily neutral Danubian Confederation.
> 
> You are right, but contradict yourself.  Your way is "slap Serbia, and 
> then it's all OK".  Yes, from a Hungaro-centric point of view, you are 
> right.  All you wrote would be so great if it didn't have negative 
> consequences to it.  The history can't be reversed, and Serbs will never 
> get their "heart" back (Kosmet, the heart of medieval Serbia), they are 
> kicked out of their Krajina (the "fender" Austro-Hungarian empire against 
> the Turks).  Also, Vojvodinian pop. ratio from 1918 can't be reclaimed.  
> The least civilized people can do in Serbia is fight through the democratic 
> institutions.  Serbia needs help, it needs democracy.
> 
> >        In 1920, President Wilson felt, that only through the formation of a
> > Danubian Confederation can a peaceful and prosperous Central Europe be
> > reestablished. It would be a tribute to Wilsonian vision, if President
> > Clinton, when, on the 26th of September, he meets the President of Romania,
> > he would use the occasion to express his support for the Danubian
> > Confederation.
> 
> Only closer ties between Serbia and Hungary (which can be materialized 
> through such a confederation) can fully solve the problem.  Giving 
> Hungarians their personal autonomy, territorial where needed (in counties 
> of Backa), and all other forms of autonomy which are of both their and 
> Serbian interest, is the way to go.  That's for sure.
> 
> Thanks for the article.  I suggest you introduce this to the Serbian 
> news-groups or organizations because only dialogue can solve the problem.
> You see what bad has done ignoring of others' interests in the Balkans' 
> case.  
> 
> > Bila Liptak is a former Yale professor, who has published many technical
> > books and has recently been invited to Budapest as a Fulbright Scholar.
> 
> Boris Bjelica
> native of Montenegro and Belgrade
> senior in Electrical Engr. at Oregon State University
Dear Mr. Bjelica

With regard to yuor very constructive comments to Mr. Liptak'a 
article, I would like to clarify some points leading 
to Vojvodina becoming part of Yugoslavia after WW I.


1. The Great Assembly (Velika narodna skupstina) of the Serbs,
 Bunjevaci and other Slav population of Banat, Bacska, and 
Baranya, held in Novi Sad on October 25, 1918, 
has made its decision based of the representation by the minority
 Slav population of Vojvodina. (At that time Slav population of 
Vojvodian amounted to 38.119% of the total 
population of Vojvodina.
The majority-61.879% of the non-Slav population of Vojvodina, 
the Hungarians, Germans, Rumanians and others were denied the 
opportunity to participate in the decision about the future 
status of Vojvodina. According to the census of 1921 the 
Serbs constituted only 28.5% of the total population of Vojvodina.
 For this reason, the decision made at the above "Great Assembly" is an illegit
imate 
Dictate imposed by a minority. 
The right for self determination has not been made accessible 
under equal conditions for the rest of the majority population of Vojvodina.
2. Many of the delegates who participated and voted in the "Great Assembly" of 
1918 
represented areas, which according to the final document of 
joining Vojvodina with Serbia, later did not become part of the Kingdom of Serb
s Croats and Slovenians.
3. Prior to the resolve of the "Great Assembly," a decision was 
made by the National Council of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenians on 
November 24, 1918, in Zagreb regarding 
the union of the Kingdom of Serbia and Montenegro. Since October 
29, 1818,  the legitimate authoritative body dealing with the status of Serbs l
iving on territories of the 
Austro-Hungarian Empire was the above National Council of Serbs, Croats and 
Slovenians, and not the "Great Assembly".
4. Regardless of the desires and the decision of the "Great 
Assembly," Banat, Bacska and Baranya, (the territories largely
equated with today's Vojvodina), by the 
International Peace Treaty of Trianon (June 4, 1920) Vojvodina 
was allotet to the 
Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, and not to Serbia.  
Yet all of the above is in essence irrelevant, because the rights
of people to exist on the land where they have lived and 
prospered for centuries are not based on the ups and downs of
history. Today, the big challenge for Serbs in Serbia proper 
is wheather or not they can demonstrate their ability to coexist
with other people, or not.
I hope and trust they can.
Greetings:
Peter Kaslik
Hungarian Human Rights Monitor, Toronto

Egy kerdest egy masik kerdessel megvalaszolni cinikus 
csusztatas es belemagyarazas.
Kovasznai Urnak a kerdese jogos, oszinte es vilagos. 
Ki beszel itt "baj"-rol?  
Kerdezni tan szabad a soc.cultur.magyar-on?

Tisztelettel
Kaslik Peter
  
Vilagositson mar fel valaki, hogy a kerdezot miert oktatjak ki
a soc.culture.magyar-on?
 "Peter I. Hidas" > wrote:
>
> Steve Kovasznai > wrote:
> >Valaki vilagositson mar fel, hogy miert van ennyi roman a 
> >soc.culture.magyar newsgroup-on? 
> >kosz. 
> >kovi
> 
> Es ez miert baj?
> Peter
> 
>

Egy kerdest egy masik kerdessel megvalaszolni cinikus 
csusztatas es belemagyarazas.
Kovasznai Urnak a kerdese jogos, oszinte es vilagos. 
Ki beszel itt "baj"-rol?  
Kerdezni tan szabad a soc.cultur.magyar-on?

Tisztelettel
Kaslik Peter
  
Vilagositson mar fel valaki, hogy a kerdezot miert oktatjak ki
a soc.culture.magyar-on?
 "Peter I. Hidas" > wrote:
>
> Steve Kovasznai > wrote:
> >Valaki vilagositson mar fel, hogy miert van ennyi roman a 
> >soc.culture.magyar newsgroup-on? 
> >kosz. 
> >kovi
> 
> Es ez miert baj?
> Peter
> 
>

In article > , 
writes:
>Kanadaban szulettem 63ban.Szegyelem hogy magyar vagyok.

Frappans belepo, mindig lehengerlo sikert szokott itt aratni. :): )

(tobbszorosen veszelyeztetett helyzetu vagy ongyilkossag szempont-
jabol, tudod-e ? (fiatal+kanadai+magyar) A reszleteket megvitatha-
tod Wally-val)

>Csupa fascista akit ismerek Kanadaban, meg a fiatal magyarok is.

Probald jobban megvalogatni a barati korodet. Meg nem kellene annyit
skinhead-koncertekre, meg nyilas gyulesekre jarnod. Akad azert tisz-
tesseges magyar is kanadaban.

>jatszunk egy jatekot. Kerdezem: menyi szazalek 
>Magyar job oldali zsido uldozo fascista?

Akad egy par, ha otthon jarsz, ugorj ki egy Fradi meccsre, biztos jol
fogod erezni magad. Itt a csoportban hazifasisztank meg nincs, de
van rendszeres magyar levelezo az alt.skinheads groupban (ibokor)
igy nem fogod egyedul erezni magad.

Sajat becsles, kb, 5000 fasiszta ha van magyarorszagon, ebbol
4500 latens klozettfasiszta, a tobbi szervezett, gyulesre jar,
ropiratot terjeszt, etc. etc. Tenyleg sok a fiatal kozottuk.

>Ki jo iro aki angolban tudok olvaszni ?

probalj egy levelet kuldeni ezzel a kerdessel a 
levelezesi rovatba.  Ott magyarok vitatkoznak angolul. Biztos hasz-
nalhato valaszt tudnak adni a kerdesedre.

>Tanar es iro vagyok...szegyelem hogycsak ijen szimplan es feke-
>te/feheren tudok vinyogni Magyarul!

Gyakorlat teszi a mestert.

Tamas

Hi

I'm finishing college next May and am currently looking for jobs.  Where 
I would really like to work, however, is Budapest.  I've majored in 
Economics/Math, and I speak some Hungarian, although I'm still not 
completely fluent.  I also speak Turkish, German, and some French.  I have a 
turkish passport that creates problems about staying in Hungary for a long
time, but I think that can be worked out eventually.  I love Budapest and 
Hungary, and I would like to live and work there.  I've already spent 2,5 
months there at the beginning of this year, taking a class at the 
Hungarian Language School.  My primary interest is consulting jobs, 
but I am open to any other suggestions.

Any kind of help as to how I should go about trying to find a job in 
Budapest will be highly appreciated! 

You can post here, or better yet, e-mail me directly at 

Thanks in advance,

Melis Behlil.

To raise funds for next year's commemoration of the 1,110th anniversary 
of Hungary's Homesteading, the Hungarian Catholic Community of 
Washington, D.C. and Area cordially invites you and your friends to a :

"Taste of Hungary"
Fundraising Dinner
Sunday, October 29, 1995
5pm-8pm

Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
2950 Spring of Freedom Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20008

dinner: $25/person, $10 tax deductible under IRS Code 501(c)(3)

R.S.V.P. by October 25th:
Hungarian Catholic Community of Washington, D.C. and Area
6529 Elder Avenue, Springfield, VA 22150, USA
Fax: (703) 971-1628

--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

We cordially invite you to Hunyadi Ma'tya's Scout Group's Autumn Dinner
Dance with all proceeds going to the upkeep and benefit of preserving
this ethnic and cultural legacy in Chicago.

Saturday evening, November 18th, 1995 at 6:30pm.
D.A.N.K. House, 4740 N. Western Ave. Chicago, IL
(Lawrence & Western Aveneues)

Admission: $10.00 excluding dinner.

Dinner, Music, Dancing 

Raffle: 1st Prize
Malev Airline ticket New York - Budapest - New York

Reservations:
Erika Na'das: (312)736-8427, or Zolta'n Noe' (312)774-9075

Unfortunately no one under 14 admitted.
Formal attire for ladies, black tie/formal for gentlemen is required.

R.S.V.P.
Thanks.

Peter Kaslik <Peter > wrote:

>Egy kerdest egy masik kerdessel megvalaszolni cinikus 
>csusztatas es belemagyarazas.

Mar ne haragudj, Peter, de te itt elefantot csinalsz a bolhabol.

>Kovasznai Urnak a kerdese jogos, oszinte es vilagos. 
>Ki beszel itt "baj"-rol?  
>Kerdezni tan szabad a soc.cultur.magyar-on?

Persze, hogy szabad.  S rakerdezni is szabad, nem?  Egyebkent az eredeti
kerdesben tobb intolarenciat lehetett kiolvasni, mint a rakerdezesben.
Kar volt felszippantani a vizet egy ilyen pitianer dolog miatt, foleg
olyanok kozott, akik nagyreszt egyetertenek.

Pannon J.

Hi everybody,

I am looking for Hungarian magazines/newspapers which would 
publish personal ads. Should you have any relavant information 
(addresses, tel #'s, faxes, e-mail) your reply would be highly 
appreciated. Please reply to: 

Regards, Keith

aggyisten!

	Kocsis Tamassal mostmar szinte mindenben 
egyetertek, hiszen tisztaztuk, hogy mas a spekulacio, amely a gazdasagi 
mozgasok kozott, azokkal egyiranyba cikazva-atsurranva szerez elonyt 
(ugy fogalmaznam, hogy rejtett de valos informaciok megszerzesevel 
teremt hozzaadott erteket, es rizikot is vallal) es mas a gengszterseg, 
amely hatalmi helyzet kihasznalasaval, beavatkozassal csak masok altal 
termelt erteket tulajdonit el, a tisztesseges gazdasagi szereplok 
kozerzetet rombolva a kozjoval szemben mukodik (szembehalad, szembenall 
vagy fekez) es uj erteket nem hoz letre. Tudvan, hogy a spekulacio es a 
gengszterseg  kozott nem konnyu kulonbseget tenni, Kocsis Tamassal adott
konkret esetekben biztosan kozos velemenyre jutnank a reszletek 
azonos szintu megismerese utan.
	Egyetlen dolog, ami a felemlitett pentameterrel es nepiseggel
meg mindig osszefugg: 
	Tamas, a magyar paraszt nem maga termeli a vetomagjat, mivel az 
szervezetileg kulon kezelodik a kenyer- es takarmanygabonatol, erre 
hivatott allami szervezet termeli vagy termelteti meg eleg szigoru 
szerzodeses alapon, igy a vetomagot ugyan valoban eladtak, de nem a 
parasztok, tovabba
	a magyar paraszt ma meg legalabb harom lepesre - ugy ertsd, hogy 
kozvetitesi lepcsofokra - van a tozsdetol, igy a termekeit legfeljebb ha 
elvileg tudja szabadon eladni a tozsden. 
	A magyar paraszt ma meg jokat csodalkozik - varosba szakadt 
rokonaival egyutt -, hogy tavaly nyaron-osszel adossagainak torlesztese 
vegett surgosen eladott termenye milyen toronymagas (bizony 
gengsztersegbol fakadoan tisztessegtelenul magas) aron kerul annak a 
boltnak a polcara, ahonnan ma meg o is, rokonai is naponta elelmiszert 
vasarolnak. 
	En azt remelem, hogy ra fog jonni a falu, hogy mielobb be 
kell ruhaznia a raktarozo, feldolgozo, kereskedelmi (igen! egeszen a 
kulkereskedelemig es a tozsdeig) szektorba, es ignoralnia kell az 
atmenettel most magasra kapaszkodott daridozo percemberkeket.
	Igy lehetne elerni, hogy a chicagoi gabonatozsde peldajat veve:
a gabona arat itthon  (16 cent - szallitasi koltseg) es (16 cent) kozott
tarthassuk, ne pedig  > sot >>(16 cent + szallitasi koltseg) szintre 
legyunk kenytelenek emelni.
By the way, en 1956 ota, de 1968 ota aztan veglegesen csak a 
Rakosi-Csemanek-Grosz-Horn oldallal ellenkezo oldalon, a jobbkozepen 
(Nemeth Laszlo - Bibo Istvan - Antall Jozsef) tudom elkepzelni a magam 
magyar nepiseget, de  ellenfelnek-ellensulynak-valtosulynak szocdem 
tipusu baloldal is kellene.
	Gondolom nem ironizaltal, amikor az allam szerepet a Matyas 
kiralyi mese okos lanyahoz hasonlitottad, mert amit utana irsz azzal 
szazszazalekig egyetertek, "ne avatkozzon bele, de osztonozzon", az 
allami szinten jobban megismerheto hazai es nemzetkozi informacios 
osszefuggeseket a  k o z j o  erdekeben elterjessze, osztonozze a 
tisztesseges gyarapodast, a karok elkeruleset, a torvenyek tiszteletet. 
Nyilvanitsa torvenytelenne a gengszterizmust es a western-filmek jo 
sheriffje modjan vigye a fuggetlen magyar birosag ele a gengsztereket.
	Bizony: "Ennek egy lehetosege van: hatekony mukodes, amely nagyon 
alaposan figyelembe veszi az objektiv gazdasagi korulmenyeket", es a 
hatalmi agak hatekony mukodese nemcsak az egyetlen lehetoseg, hanem 
egyre surgetobb szuksegszeruseg. 

istenvelunk...			kadargyorgy

aggyisten!

	Homonnai Mihaly megjegyzeset koszonom.
	Kocsis Tamas analiziset is koszonom, de ahhoz hozzafuznivalom is 
lenne. Nezeteink viszonylag konnyen osszeegyeztethetoek lehetnek, ugyanis 
megint csak a hollet-nek a tudat-hoz valo viszonyarol van szo (en ugyanis 
a nepiek felol erkeztem, ilyen a tudatom, de itt zarojelben felidezem 
Illyes Gyula pentameteret magamnak s masoknak, mert sokszor hallottam 
feluletesen idezni/hivatkozni:
	Azt hogy a ne'p fia vagy, igazolnod, sej, ma nem azzal
	kellene: honnan jo:ssz, azzal ecse'm: hova me'sz).

	Vegyunk nehany logikusnak latszo elofeltetelt:
	1) (majdha egyszer mar egyensuly lesz) A magyar gazdasagban a
t e r m e l o i - f e l d o l g o z o i - k e r e s k e d e l m i  
tevekenysegek hazai es nemzetkozi erdekeit
(mezogazdasag-raktarozas-feldolgozas-elelmiszereloallitas-csomagolas-
nagykereskedelem-kiskereskedelem-kulkereskedelem; 
bauxitbanyaszat-timfold-aluminium-Al eszkozok-Al gepek-nagy-kis-kulker;
hazassag-szuletes-iskolazas-munka-kutatas-oktatas-fejlesztes-felemelo 
kultura-melto halal; stb.) 
valoszinuleg elobbre kellene sorolni, mint az 
elosztogatas, kifosztogatas, kormanyozgatas, szorakoztatas, 
szerencsejatek, penzmozgatas (itt hangsulyoznam, hogy a fentiekhez 
hasonlo kategoriakba eso valos ertekek mozgasa nelkul valo penzmozgatasra 
gondolok) barmennyire is nemzetkozi erdekeit. 
Elobb panem, aztan circenses, elobb a munka azutan a jatek.
	2) Most (szuksegszeru vagy nem szuksegszeru, elonyos vagy 
hatranyos, de) nem igy van
	3) Hozzaadott ertek nelkul jogos-e a penzugyi nyereseg? 
	4) A kolhozvilag 35 (vagy 45) eve alatt a kozpontosito allam 
megszuntette a kistulajdonos le't lehetoseget, sot meg a kolhozoktol is 
elzarta az onallo gazdalkodas modjait, pl. kifejezetten akadalyozta az 
egy-egy falu igenyeihez mert nagysagu gabonaraktarak, hutohazak, 
borospincek (nemhogy fejleszteset, ujak epiteset, de meg a) fenntartasat 
(is). Hasznalhatatlan vagy beepitett padlasteru, meteres, masfel meteres 
labazatra emelt, tehat hasznalhatatlan pinceju hazak epultek, istallo, 
szenapadlas, gazdasagi udvar nelkul a falvakban, de a lenyegi baj az, 
hogy a mezogazdasagi termeknek azonnal kozponti, allami raktarakba, 
feldolgozo uzemekbe kellett kerulniuk. Most a falvak-tszek tobbsegenek 
csak adossagai vannak, beruhazni nem tudnak. Iden sokeves aszalyos 
idojaras utan vegre elfogadhato termes takaritodik be. A falvakban ma 
mar a karpotlasi foldeken onallosodasra torekvo, fiaikat is a foldhoz 
visszacsalogato parasztemberek azt lathatjak, hogy minel korabban, az 
aratashoz, betakaritashoz, szurethez minel kozelebbi idopontban kell 
megvalniuk a termestol, annal tobbet keres a kezuk munkajan valaki mas.   
Csak a gyongyosi szolovideken harom het alatt 25%-ot emelkedett 
folyamatosan az eppen leszuretelt szolo ara. Aki pedig idoben bogyozot, 
prest, taroloedenyt es helyet szerzett be az elmult keserves evekben, az 
mustot tarolhat, bort adhat majd el, es mar most latszik, hogy sokkal 
elonyosebben, mint a ketkezi termelo. Toluk nem is sajnalja senki, idoben 
beruhaztak, megerdemlik. Ez a pelda is ritka, a szolo nagy reszet el 
kellett adni, pl. nemreg privatizalt feldolgozo-tarolok kulfoldi 
tulajdonosanak.	
	5) A visszacsatolas elektronikus nyelven szolva pozitiv, aki 
szegeny, az a legszegenyebb, es az lesz jovore is.

"Na es akkor mi van? Legfeljebb majd vilagpiaci aron visszavasarolnak,  
ha elfogy az otthoni keszlet..."
"...mashol tobbet fial annal, mintha telen lett volna piacra dobva."
"...a parasztok eladtak a jovoevi vetomagot is, mert olyan k... jo ara 
volt a buzanak."

	Hat Tamas, biztosithatlak, hogy akik kulfoldre eladtak a buzat, 
azokat nemigen fogja erdekelni, hogy elfogy-e az itthoni keszlet, akik 
majd vilagpiaci aron visszavasarolnak - ugye "...nem az importor fog 
rosszul jarni. Gondolj a krumplira" - azoknak a hasznat meg majd megint 
azok fizetjuk meg, akik - eppen nem gabonat, hanem valami mast - 
termelnek es munkaerejuk fenntartasa erdekeben kenyeret akarnak enni. A 
nyereseg tulsagosan jelentos resze nalunk nem uj erteket teremt, hanem 
fokent bankszekhazak es villak csiri-csare-kivagyisagara meg a feneketlen 
koltsegvetesi zsakba folyik el. 
	Eddig volt, hogy nehezen tudtam Veled egyeterteni, ugyanis azt 
varnam el egy felelos kormany es torvenyhozas munkajatol, hogy 
szabalyzoival, torvenyeivel segitse a hazai termelest (ne avatkozzon 
bele, csak osztonozze a kommunizmus romjaibol maradt akadalyok 
eltakaritasat), becsulje a paraszt, a szakmunkas, a mernok, a tanar, az 
orvos, egyszoval az ertektermelo es onallo szakszeru cselekvesre kesz es 
kepes (e tulajdonsagok miatt polgar!) polgar munkajat, szoritsa vissza a 
hozzaadott ertek nelkul szerezheto gazdasagi nyereseg lehetoseget.
	A tovabbi gondolataiddal joreszt egyetertek. 
Legfeljebb Pragaban  en inkabb csehul szeretnek beszelni, de se csehul, 
se totul valoban nem tudok (Nem fogadtam meg Nemeth Laszlo tanacsat). Az 
is igaz, hogy en a fent mar tulajdonsagaival leirt polgarsagnak nem 
elsosorban a nagysagat, hanem a befolyasolasi lehetosegeit hasonlitottam 
ossze. 	
	Viszont en is szivesen latnek joval tobb kistulajdonost az 
orszagban, es a szeplanyok meg a strichelesukre felugyelo legenyek 
hasonlatat oszinte elismeressel telitalalatnak ertekelem. Csakhat itt 
eppen arrol kezdodott a diskurzus, hogy minalunk meg a kurvak sem olcso 
joszagok, hatmeg a stricik.
	Weimar? A szakszeru kozvelemenykutatasok eleg riaszto kepet 
festenek a falra. Csak meg ne jelenjen...

istenvelunk...			kadargyorgy